Yeah the global cost on those stikkbombs is killer
*gets more zeal from blowing up a generator than was used for the stikkbombs*
Nah, you lose ten per generator. You can't one shot the node, so if you use two on that you're losing 26.
I don't think the stikkbomba nerf is necessary. The orks lack anything else that can deal with power quickly. An eldar or SM player can win an initial encounter and then set up a heavy weapon and wipe them out faster at a global surplus. Or hell, just distract the opposing player and sneak a bolter squad over, much like an ork player might do.
An ork can do it slower, for more resources to buy the unit, and at a negative global cost.
I guess the only people who are really screwed here are the nids.
Yeah the global cost on those stikkbombs is killer
*gets more zeal from blowing up a generator than was used for the stikkbombs*
Nah, you lose ten per generator. You can't one shot the node, so if you use two on that you're losing 26.
I don't think the stikkbomba nerf is necessary. The orks lack anything else that can deal with power quickly. An eldar or SM player can win an initial encounter and then set up a heavy weapon and wipe them out faster at a global surplus.
An ork can do it slower, for more resources to buy the unit, and at a negative cost.
Ok I wasn't actually sure if it was 8 per throw or per bomb, so my mistake.
Yeah but how many SM or Eldar are going to win a T1 encounter against Orks? Aside from the fact that a setup weapon is completely useless against Orks unless they're led by a Warboss, the Mek and Kommando can easily tie it up long enough for Sluggas to overwhelm it. And then you're comparing a unit that can destroy a generator instantly and escape when trouble arrives to an arc firing weapon with a setup and tear down time, the only advantage a setup weapon has is that it can take out a 3-generator farm faster than stikkbommaz, but that requires it to either be ignored or protected the entire time. It just doesn't seem like the global cost is enough when you get all but 9 of it back from destroying the generator.
Sluggas take so long to kill power with their waagh ability that's left over from making your entire army route. Like, almost as long as guardians take to do fourteen damage to it.
Goomba on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
0
Zen VulgarityWhat a lovely day for teaSecret British ThreadRegistered Userregular
Nah, you lose ten per generator. You can't one shot the node, so if you use two on that you're losing 26.
I don't think the stikkbomba nerf is necessary. The orks lack anything else that can deal with power quickly. An eldar or SM player can win an initial encounter and then set up a heavy weapon and wipe them out faster at a global surplus.
The mekboy goes through gens just as fast as either heavy weapons team with his wargear gun.
The problem is those heavy weapons teams that sm/eldar have is that they are of dubious use at best against a good ork player, with the mekboy and kommado ready to disrupt them. Especially the plats as they're ungarrisonable.
They're great for killing genfarms sure, I'll grant you that, but two out of three ork heroes are a hard counter to them, and all things being equal, eldar and space marines are not going to win the initial encounter against orks, unless the ork gets pretty badly outplayed.
Which puts sm/eldar on the back foot immediately, and they begin losing 100 req insantly every ten seconds or so assuming the ork player is competent.
CanisAquilus on
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SpectrumArcher of InfernoChaldea Rec RoomRegistered Userregular
I guess the only people who are really screwed here are the nids.
As an interesting point of reference, three spore mines detonating in the center will take out a gen farm and the node will have very little health left itself.
Now, it's generally pretty stupid to do this as you're trading 45 precious power for a temporary decrease to the enemy's rate but it's there.
Alternatively, the only other nid T1 hero-independent choice for killing gens is warriors, but they're not even particularly good at it.
Mind you, VC and AG warriors both gib gens pretty hard once you hit T2, so yeah.
Yeah the global cost on those stikkbombs is killer
*gets more zeal from blowing up a generator than was used for the stikkbombs*
Nah, you lose ten per generator. You can't one shot the node, so if you use two on that you're losing 26.
I don't think the stikkbomba nerf is necessary. The orks lack anything else that can deal with power quickly. An eldar or SM player can win an initial encounter and then set up a heavy weapon and wipe them out faster at a global surplus.
An ork can do it slower, for more resources to buy the unit, and at a negative cost.
Ok I wasn't actually sure if it was 8 per throw or per bomb, so my mistake.
Yeah but how many SM or Eldar are going to win a T1 encounter against Orks? Aside from the fact that a setup weapon is completely useless against Orks unless they're led by a Warboss, the Mek and Kommando can easily tie it up long enough for Sluggas to overwhelm it. And then you're comparing a unit that can destroy a generator instantly and escape when trouble arrives to an arc firing weapon with a setup and tear down time, the only advantage a setup weapon has is that it can take out the entire power farm faster than stikkbommaz, but that requires it to either be ignored or protected the entire time.
Part of my point here is that you don't even have to win the encounter. Misdirection or distraction is suffcient. The amount of time it takes for a bolter squad to take down a whole power farm is probably twice as fast as a Stikkbomba squad. Even faster if you have targeters. I've had plenty of games with eldar that I have routed a force due to some key grenades or an unexpected platform. During which, I moved as quickly as possible and killed the ork's power at little loss of my own.
I imagine it could be harder for SM to pull such a stunt off. After all, their basic troops cost more, in addition to the bolter weapon costing more. Not feasible to split your forces like that, perhaps?
What's the point of having a good tier one however if you cannot bear those fangs against your opponent in a meaningful way? Much the ork game is currently based off of sapping power in order to either out-tech your opponent or stretch that period of superiority. It's not as if SM can't hold their own in tier one either.
Canis:
I don't want to balance the game based off of one hero. All three ork heroes are very powerful and viable choices, something I think has been done well. If you were to significantly change the stikkbomba, these heros would become less viable by proxy. The mekboy's deffgun should not be the only way to harass power in a meaningful way.
Is the real problem here that bolter squads are not worth it against their supposed ideal situation? That is, against a horde race like the orks? If that's the case, don't go nerfing stikkbombas. Buff bolters.
edit: I'll have to respectfully disagree with shurikens platforms against orks. They're a saving grace against them as eldar. All it takes it is a little protection and proper scouting to find their threats and they can be a huge thorn for even the most experienced ork player. You have fleet, use it to gather information.
The SM do not have the luxury of many covering units, although scout sight range is quite good...
I guess the only people who are really screwed here are the nids.
As an interesting point of reference, three spore mines detonating in the center will take out a gen farm and the node will have very little health left itself.
Now, it's generally pretty stupid to do this as you're trading 45 precious power for a temporary decrease to the enemy's rate but it's there.
Alternatively, the only other nid T1 hero-independent choice for killing gens is warriors, but they're not even particularly good at it.
Mind you, VC and AG warriors both gib gens pretty hard once you hit T2, so yeah.
Yeah, like it really matters, though.
The enemy having power and the tyranid player being successful have nothing to do with eachother.
Pancake on
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Zen VulgarityWhat a lovely day for teaSecret British ThreadRegistered Userregular
Corp, I'm talking strictly from experience here, but "misdirection"? That's stupid. And orkz can take down generators plenty fast with sluggas alone in t1. Not as fast as platforms, but whoop-dee-shit, they don't have to set up.
Yeah the global cost on those stikkbombs is killer
*gets more zeal from blowing up a generator than was used for the stikkbombs*
Nah, you lose ten per generator. You can't one shot the node, so if you use two on that you're losing 26.
I don't think the stikkbomba nerf is necessary. The orks lack anything else that can deal with power quickly. An eldar or SM player can win an initial encounter and then set up a heavy weapon and wipe them out faster at a global surplus.
An ork can do it slower, for more resources to buy the unit, and at a negative cost.
Ok I wasn't actually sure if it was 8 per throw or per bomb, so my mistake.
Yeah but how many SM or Eldar are going to win a T1 encounter against Orks? Aside from the fact that a setup weapon is completely useless against Orks unless they're led by a Warboss, the Mek and Kommando can easily tie it up long enough for Sluggas to overwhelm it. And then you're comparing a unit that can destroy a generator instantly and escape when trouble arrives to an arc firing weapon with a setup and tear down time, the only advantage a setup weapon has is that it can take out the entire power farm faster than stikkbommaz, but that requires it to either be ignored or protected the entire time.
Part of my point here is that you don't even have to win the encounter. Misdirection or distraction is suffcient. The amount of time it takes for a bolter squad to take down a whole power farm is probably twice as fast as a Stikkbomba squad. Even faster if you have targeters. I've had plenty of games with eldar that I have routed a force due to some key grenades or an unexpected platform. During which, I moved as quickly as possible and killed the ork's power at little loss of my own.
I imagine it could be harder for SM to pull such a stunt off. After all, their basic troops cost more, in addition to the bolter weapon costing more. Not feasible to split your forces like that, perhaps?
What's the point of having a good tier one however if you cannot bear those fangs against your opponent in a meaningful way? Much the ork game is currently based off of sapping power in order to either out-tech your opponent or stretch that period of superiority. It's not as if SM can't hold their own in tier one either.
I don't want to balance the game based off of one hero. All three ork heroes are very powerful and viable choices, something I think has been done well. If you were to significantly change the stikkbomba, these heros would become less viable by proxy.
Is the real problem here that bolter squads are not worth it against their supposed ideal situation? If that's the case, don't go nerfing stikkbombas. Buff bolters.
edit: I'll have to respectfully disagree with shurikens platforms against orks. They're a saving grace against them as eldar. All it takes it is a little protection and proper scouting to find their threats and they can be a huge thorn for even the most experienced ork player. You have fleet, use it to gather information.
The SM do not have the luxury of many covering units, although scout sight range is quite good...
T1 against Orks is pretty bad for SM. A Warboss isn't too bad, then you can just do tacs -> heavy bolter and not have too much issue unless your heavy bolter gets in melee from flanking or blown up by stikkbombs. Against a Mek or Kommando you can't afford to deploy one because of how easily countered it is. In either scenario you don't have the extra units to both fight the main Ork army while flanking their power with a heavy bolter team, unless you go for a very extended T1 of double-tac to heavy bolter or tac-ASM to heavy bolter, and that is going to lead to you getting vastly out-teched.
There isn't any way to buff Heavy Bolter squads that would fix the problem of the Mek/Kommando teleporting or infiltrating into melee and locking it down, short of something ridiculous like letting it shoot in melee.
The main issue is that Stikkbommaz can destroy generators quickly and with limited cost or risk, even just destroying one generator before being forced to retreat can add up very quickly if you dedicate a Stikkbommaz squad to this purpose. At least for me (speaking as SM) I don't have the unit count to keep an eye on generators most of the time, especially on maps like Green Tooth Jungle where the enemy player's base is very close to your power source.
Of course I don't think Stikkbommaz are a high priority for nerfing, they're annoying and probably a little OP but there are much bigger balance problems right now.
Corp, I'm talking strictly from experience here, but "misdirection"? That's stupid. And orkz can take down generators plenty fast with sluggas alone in t1. Not as fast as platforms, but whoop-dee-shit, they don't have to set up.
I'm speaking from experience here as well. Let's say you're playing on Siwal Frontier, or however you spell it. The majority of fighting will generally be up at the top if you're an eldar player. It has a good share of resources, but most importantly two VPs, which can stop you from taking excessive ticket loss in the early game.
Fighting up there with three guardian squads and you hero and the ork won't be able to spare much for capping. Meanwhile, you order your freshly built shuriken platform not to support the north, but to take a long route south. Captured points don't reveal much, so you can sneak by easily. You get to the farm, he has about five seconds to somehow disrupt you before generators start exploding. Furthermore, thanks to the terrain, there are only so many ways to approach either generator position. A well placed platform can cover an expected rout of enemy reinforcements, buying time as they either go around, or you get to kill them too.
The worst case scenario you lose your platform. If you took down the whole farm, he would have still lost more. This also forces the ork to split up, which can end very poorly if you keep pressure on north.
I've been running a three guardian one platform farseer build against orks lately to great effect. Brightlance is your first thing out in tier two, other than sargents of course. If you harassed his power, you'll be ready for the deff-dred that is coming. Doom and guide will seal it's fate.
Zen VulgarityWhat a lovely day for teaSecret British ThreadRegistered Userregular
edited April 2009
Advanced healing makes the spam unkillable.
I'll take damage over invincibility.
watching a tac spam get nailed by a psychic storm and be perfectly fine because the apothecary's advanced healing was still ticking off, then be in full health in mere seconds afterwards is frustrating
watching a tac spam get nailed by a psychic storm and be perfectly fine because the apothecary's advanced healing was still ticking off, then be in full health in mere seconds afterwards is frustrating
If you managed to get enough global resource for a Psychic Storm then you didn't fight someone really tac spamming.
Akira on
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Zen VulgarityWhat a lovely day for teaSecret British ThreadRegistered Userregular
watching a tac spam get nailed by a psychic storm and be perfectly fine because the apothecary's advanced healing was still ticking off, then be in full health in mere seconds afterwards is frustrating
If you managed to get enough global resource for a Psychic Storm then you didn't fight someone really tac spamming.
I play 3v3, hurk.
And if you don't see fifteen tac squads on the field, you didn't fight someone tac spamming.
Zen Vulgarity on
0
3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
Hmmm lets check today's list of Shit I Have Arbitrarily Decided is OP for 4/1
-Ravener
-Warrior and/or Ripper spam
-Ravener
-Zoanthropes, Carnifex, most of the Tyranid army, etc
-Ravener
-Spore Mines
-Ravener
-Tac spam
-Ravener
-Iron Halo
-Ravener
-Mek mines
-Ravener
-Warlock Champion's Robe and Channeling Runes
-Ravener
-Falcon shields
-Ravener
Only one entry for Orks, avoid a mine Mek and you're in the clear!
Zoeys and Carnies are not OP. You are butthurt because Raveners and AG Wars are way too good.
3cl1ps3 on
0
AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited April 2009
Zoanthrope is OP at the moment because it benefits from the same shield bug as other things do IMO. It is far too durable with the shield on than it should be.
The enemy having power and the tyranid player being successful have nothing to do with eachother.
*shrug* I only play 3s. Delaying enemy fast-tech is pretty important.
Also, with ranged nid blob, I'd by far rather play against FC tac mass rather than apoth or TM. FC can be easily neutralized, while nid blob just doesn't have the DPS to burst down apoth who's advanced healing well and Warriors get cut to pieces too easily by TM tac blobs.
Zoan shield is strong, but they lose a large part of it if they want to use their stun. Plus, it drops when they retreat and they move sooooo slowly, that if they're not humping a tunnel or something, they can get in trouble to jumpers, teleporters, or something running out of an enemy tunnel.
Also of note since I don't see it mentioned often, but the stun can miss and hit something else sometimes. It's not common, but I've had it happen.
Yeah the global cost on those stikkbombs is killer
*gets more zeal from blowing up a generator than was used for the stikkbombs*
Nah, you lose ten per generator. You can't one shot the node, so if you use two on that you're losing 26.
I don't think the stikkbomba nerf is necessary. The orks lack anything else that can deal with power quickly. An eldar or SM player can win an initial encounter and then set up a heavy weapon and wipe them out faster at a global surplus.
An ork can do it slower, for more resources to buy the unit, and at a negative cost.
Ok I wasn't actually sure if it was 8 per throw or per bomb, so my mistake.
Yeah but how many SM or Eldar are going to win a T1 encounter against Orks? Aside from the fact that a setup weapon is completely useless against Orks unless they're led by a Warboss, the Mek and Kommando can easily tie it up long enough for Sluggas to overwhelm it. And then you're comparing a unit that can destroy a generator instantly and escape when trouble arrives to an arc firing weapon with a setup and tear down time, the only advantage a setup weapon has is that it can take out the entire power farm faster than stikkbommaz, but that requires it to either be ignored or protected the entire time.
Part of my point here is that you don't even have to win the encounter. Misdirection or distraction is suffcient. The amount of time it takes for a bolter squad to take down a whole power farm is probably twice as fast as a Stikkbomba squad. Even faster if you have targeters. I've had plenty of games with eldar that I have routed a force due to some key grenades or an unexpected platform. During which, I moved as quickly as possible and killed the ork's power at little loss of my own.
I imagine it could be harder for SM to pull such a stunt off. After all, their basic troops cost more, in addition to the bolter weapon costing more. Not feasible to split your forces like that, perhaps?
What's the point of having a good tier one however if you cannot bear those fangs against your opponent in a meaningful way? Much the ork game is currently based off of sapping power in order to either out-tech your opponent or stretch that period of superiority. It's not as if SM can't hold their own in tier one either.
I don't want to balance the game based off of one hero. All three ork heroes are very powerful and viable choices, something I think has been done well. If you were to significantly change the stikkbomba, these heros would become less viable by proxy.
Is the real problem here that bolter squads are not worth it against their supposed ideal situation? If that's the case, don't go nerfing stikkbombas. Buff bolters.
edit: I'll have to respectfully disagree with shurikens platforms against orks. They're a saving grace against them as eldar. All it takes it is a little protection and proper scouting to find their threats and they can be a huge thorn for even the most experienced ork player. You have fleet, use it to gather information.
The SM do not have the luxury of many covering units, although scout sight range is quite good...
T1 against Orks is pretty bad for SM. A Warboss isn't too bad, then you can just do tacs -> heavy bolter and not have too much issue unless your heavy bolter gets in melee from flanking or blown up by stikkbombs. Against a Mek or Kommando you can't afford to deploy one because of how easily countered it is. In either scenario you don't have the extra units to both fight the main Ork army while flanking their power with a heavy bolter team, unless you go for a very extended T1 of double-tac to heavy bolter or tac-ASM to heavy bolter, and that is going to lead to you getting vastly out-teched.
There isn't any way to buff Heavy Bolter squads that would fix the problem of the Mek/Kommando teleporting or infiltrating into melee and locking it down, short of something ridiculous like letting it shoot in melee.
The main issue is that Stikkbommaz can destroy generators quickly and with limited cost or risk, even just destroying one generator before being forced to retreat can add up very quickly if you dedicate a Stikkbommaz squad to this purpose. At least for me (speaking as SM) I don't have the unit count to keep an eye on generators most of the time, especially on maps like Green Tooth Jungle where the enemy player's base is very close to your power source.
Of course I don't think Stikkbommaz are a high priority for nerfing, they're annoying and probably a little OP but there are much bigger balance problems right now.
SM v Orks is probably the worst tier one match-up for SM. Cheapening the Heavy Bolter could help here. Not sure if it's enough, but...
I'm not convinced that Stikkbombas are really OP here. They're no tougher than a slugga squad and cost a good amount more. Even a forced retreat after a single generator can shift the balance of power until they hit the field again.
Funny enough, I see flamers deployed against my eldar to greater effect than against my orks... Flamer tacs are monsters against guardians and banshees, and I can't even tie them up. Flamer tacs also kill generators with a degree of competency. They're a nightmare for eldar, but not orks. Maybe that's the problem... the weapons available to support the heavy bolter aren't effective enough.
Zoeys are overpowered in that they're the perfect armor hard-counter. I already did a number on this one, but basically every other races have to combine two forms of AT to counter most armored threats. The zoey, between range and it's stun is a counter in of its own self while also providing damn good anti-infantry support.
Hmmm lets check today's list of Shit I Have Arbitrarily Decided is OP for 4/1
-Ravener
-Warrior and/or Ripper spam
-Ravener
-Zoanthropes, Carnifex, most of the Tyranid army, etc
-Ravener
-Spore Mines
-Ravener
-Tac spam
-Ravener
-Iron Halo
-Ravener
-Mek mines
-Ravener
-Warlock Champion's Robe and Channeling Runes
-Ravener
-Falcon shields
-Ravener
Only one entry for Orks, avoid a mine Mek and you're in the clear!
Zoeys and Carnies are not OP. You are butthurt because Raveners and AG Wars are way too good.
Oh my mistake, but where can I get a 400/40 SM artillery unit with no setup time that can disable a vehicle at range? Or how the Carnifex is 650/175 for a walker that regenerates almost as fast as a normal vehicle repairs, including in combat, has 900-1200 health and is in an army that uses much less power than the other three leaving you plenty by T3 to pump out Carnifexes?
Yeah the global cost on those stikkbombs is killer
*gets more zeal from blowing up a generator than was used for the stikkbombs*
Nah, you lose ten per generator. You can't one shot the node, so if you use two on that you're losing 26.
I don't think the stikkbomba nerf is necessary. The orks lack anything else that can deal with power quickly. An eldar or SM player can win an initial encounter and then set up a heavy weapon and wipe them out faster at a global surplus.
An ork can do it slower, for more resources to buy the unit, and at a negative cost.
Ok I wasn't actually sure if it was 8 per throw or per bomb, so my mistake.
Yeah but how many SM or Eldar are going to win a T1 encounter against Orks? Aside from the fact that a setup weapon is completely useless against Orks unless they're led by a Warboss, the Mek and Kommando can easily tie it up long enough for Sluggas to overwhelm it. And then you're comparing a unit that can destroy a generator instantly and escape when trouble arrives to an arc firing weapon with a setup and tear down time, the only advantage a setup weapon has is that it can take out the entire power farm faster than stikkbommaz, but that requires it to either be ignored or protected the entire time.
Part of my point here is that you don't even have to win the encounter. Misdirection or distraction is suffcient. The amount of time it takes for a bolter squad to take down a whole power farm is probably twice as fast as a Stikkbomba squad. Even faster if you have targeters. I've had plenty of games with eldar that I have routed a force due to some key grenades or an unexpected platform. During which, I moved as quickly as possible and killed the ork's power at little loss of my own.
I imagine it could be harder for SM to pull such a stunt off. After all, their basic troops cost more, in addition to the bolter weapon costing more. Not feasible to split your forces like that, perhaps?
What's the point of having a good tier one however if you cannot bear those fangs against your opponent in a meaningful way? Much the ork game is currently based off of sapping power in order to either out-tech your opponent or stretch that period of superiority. It's not as if SM can't hold their own in tier one either.
I don't want to balance the game based off of one hero. All three ork heroes are very powerful and viable choices, something I think has been done well. If you were to significantly change the stikkbomba, these heros would become less viable by proxy.
Is the real problem here that bolter squads are not worth it against their supposed ideal situation? If that's the case, don't go nerfing stikkbombas. Buff bolters.
edit: I'll have to respectfully disagree with shurikens platforms against orks. They're a saving grace against them as eldar. All it takes it is a little protection and proper scouting to find their threats and they can be a huge thorn for even the most experienced ork player. You have fleet, use it to gather information.
The SM do not have the luxury of many covering units, although scout sight range is quite good...
T1 against Orks is pretty bad for SM. A Warboss isn't too bad, then you can just do tacs -> heavy bolter and not have too much issue unless your heavy bolter gets in melee from flanking or blown up by stikkbombs. Against a Mek or Kommando you can't afford to deploy one because of how easily countered it is. In either scenario you don't have the extra units to both fight the main Ork army while flanking their power with a heavy bolter team, unless you go for a very extended T1 of double-tac to heavy bolter or tac-ASM to heavy bolter, and that is going to lead to you getting vastly out-teched.
There isn't any way to buff Heavy Bolter squads that would fix the problem of the Mek/Kommando teleporting or infiltrating into melee and locking it down, short of something ridiculous like letting it shoot in melee.
The main issue is that Stikkbommaz can destroy generators quickly and with limited cost or risk, even just destroying one generator before being forced to retreat can add up very quickly if you dedicate a Stikkbommaz squad to this purpose. At least for me (speaking as SM) I don't have the unit count to keep an eye on generators most of the time, especially on maps like Green Tooth Jungle where the enemy player's base is very close to your power source.
Of course I don't think Stikkbommaz are a high priority for nerfing, they're annoying and probably a little OP but there are much bigger balance problems right now.
SM v Orks is probably the worst tier one match-up for SM. Cheapening the Heavy Bolter could help here. Not sure if it's enough, but...
I'm not convinced that Stikkbombas are really OP here. They're no tougher than a slugga squad and cost a good amount more. Even a forced retreat after a single generator can shift the balance of power until they hit the field again.
Funny enough, I see flamers deployed against my eldar to greater effect than against my orks... Flamer tacs are monsters against guardians and banshees, and I can't even tie them up. Flamer tacs also kill generators with a degree of competency. They're a nightmare for eldar, but not orks. Maybe that's the problem... the weapons available to support the heavy bolter aren't effective enough.
Zoeys are overpowered in that they're the perfect armor hard-counter. I already did a number on this one, but basically every other races have to combine two forms of AT to counter most armored threats. The zoey, between range and it's stun is a counter in of its own self while also providing damn good anti-infantry support.
Flamers are great and I wish I could afford to deploy them more often, but your main AV as SM is tac missiles and unless you're planning to run 2-3 tac squads (which always feels kind of spammy to me) you can't afford to give up the AV you need in T2/3 for an advantage in T1/2. If Tacs could switch weapons, even just at the HQ and for full price, I'd be whoring flamers in every game.
I'm speaking from experience here as well. Let's say you're playing on Siwal Frontier, or however you spell it. The majority of fighting will generally be up at the top if you're an eldar player. It has a good share of resources, but most importantly two VPs, which can stop you from taking excessive ticket loss in the early game.
Fighting up there with three guardian squads and you hero and the ork won't be able to spare much for capping. Meanwhile, you order your freshly built shuriken platform not to support the north, but to take a long route south. Captured points don't reveal much, so you can sneak by easily. You get to the farm, he has about five seconds to somehow disrupt you before generators start exploding. Furthermore, thanks to the terrain, there are only so many ways to approach either generator position. A well placed platform can cover an expected rout of enemy reinforcements, buying time as they either go around, or you get to kill them too.
The worst case scenario you lose your platform. If you took down the whole farm, he would have still lost more. This also forces the ork to split up, which can end very poorly if you keep pressure on north.
I've been running a three guardian one platform farseer build against orks lately to great effect. Brightlance is your first thing out in tier two, other than sargents of course. If you harassed his power, you'll be ready for the deff-dred that is coming. Doom and guide will seal it's fate.
Play against better orkz.
Goomba on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
0
SpectrumArcher of InfernoChaldea Rec RoomRegistered Userregular
Oh my mistake, but where can I get a 400/40 SM artillery unit with no setup time that can disable a vehicle at range? Or how the Carnifex is 650/175 for a walker that regenerates almost as fast as a normal vehicle repairs, including in combat, has 900-1200 health and is in an army that uses much less power than the other three leaving you plenty by T3 to pump out Carnifexes?
Nids aren't really that much less power dependent than the other races. With most builds, I'm always sitting around waiting on power to do anything and certainly don't have a ton just sitting around in T3.
Yeah the global cost on those stikkbombs is killer
*gets more zeal from blowing up a generator than was used for the stikkbombs*
Nah, you lose ten per generator. You can't one shot the node, so if you use two on that you're losing 26.
I don't think the stikkbomba nerf is necessary. The orks lack anything else that can deal with power quickly. An eldar or SM player can win an initial encounter and then set up a heavy weapon and wipe them out faster at a global surplus.
An ork can do it slower, for more resources to buy the unit, and at a negative cost.
Ok I wasn't actually sure if it was 8 per throw or per bomb, so my mistake.
Yeah but how many SM or Eldar are going to win a T1 encounter against Orks? Aside from the fact that a setup weapon is completely useless against Orks unless they're led by a Warboss, the Mek and Kommando can easily tie it up long enough for Sluggas to overwhelm it. And then you're comparing a unit that can destroy a generator instantly and escape when trouble arrives to an arc firing weapon with a setup and tear down time, the only advantage a setup weapon has is that it can take out the entire power farm faster than stikkbommaz, but that requires it to either be ignored or protected the entire time.
Part of my point here is that you don't even have to win the encounter. Misdirection or distraction is suffcient. The amount of time it takes for a bolter squad to take down a whole power farm is probably twice as fast as a Stikkbomba squad. Even faster if you have targeters. I've had plenty of games with eldar that I have routed a force due to some key grenades or an unexpected platform. During which, I moved as quickly as possible and killed the ork's power at little loss of my own.
I imagine it could be harder for SM to pull such a stunt off. After all, their basic troops cost more, in addition to the bolter weapon costing more. Not feasible to split your forces like that, perhaps?
What's the point of having a good tier one however if you cannot bear those fangs against your opponent in a meaningful way? Much the ork game is currently based off of sapping power in order to either out-tech your opponent or stretch that period of superiority. It's not as if SM can't hold their own in tier one either.
I don't want to balance the game based off of one hero. All three ork heroes are very powerful and viable choices, something I think has been done well. If you were to significantly change the stikkbomba, these heros would become less viable by proxy.
Is the real problem here that bolter squads are not worth it against their supposed ideal situation? If that's the case, don't go nerfing stikkbombas. Buff bolters.
edit: I'll have to respectfully disagree with shurikens platforms against orks. They're a saving grace against them as eldar. All it takes it is a little protection and proper scouting to find their threats and they can be a huge thorn for even the most experienced ork player. You have fleet, use it to gather information.
The SM do not have the luxury of many covering units, although scout sight range is quite good...
T1 against Orks is pretty bad for SM. A Warboss isn't too bad, then you can just do tacs -> heavy bolter and not have too much issue unless your heavy bolter gets in melee from flanking or blown up by stikkbombs. Against a Mek or Kommando you can't afford to deploy one because of how easily countered it is. In either scenario you don't have the extra units to both fight the main Ork army while flanking their power with a heavy bolter team, unless you go for a very extended T1 of double-tac to heavy bolter or tac-ASM to heavy bolter, and that is going to lead to you getting vastly out-teched.
There isn't any way to buff Heavy Bolter squads that would fix the problem of the Mek/Kommando teleporting or infiltrating into melee and locking it down, short of something ridiculous like letting it shoot in melee.
The main issue is that Stikkbommaz can destroy generators quickly and with limited cost or risk, even just destroying one generator before being forced to retreat can add up very quickly if you dedicate a Stikkbommaz squad to this purpose. At least for me (speaking as SM) I don't have the unit count to keep an eye on generators most of the time, especially on maps like Green Tooth Jungle where the enemy player's base is very close to your power source.
Of course I don't think Stikkbommaz are a high priority for nerfing, they're annoying and probably a little OP but there are much bigger balance problems right now.
SM v Orks is probably the worst tier one match-up for SM. Cheapening the Heavy Bolter could help here. Not sure if it's enough, but...
I'm not convinced that Stikkbombas are really OP here. They're no tougher than a slugga squad and cost a good amount more. Even a forced retreat after a single generator can shift the balance of power until they hit the field again.
Funny enough, I see flamers deployed against my eldar to greater effect than against my orks... Flamer tacs are monsters against guardians and banshees, and I can't even tie them up. Flamer tacs also kill generators with a degree of competency. They're a nightmare for eldar, but not orks. Maybe that's the problem... the weapons available to support the heavy bolter aren't effective enough.
Zoeys are overpowered in that they're the perfect armor hard-counter. I already did a number on this one, but basically every other races have to combine two forms of AT to counter most armored threats. The zoey, between range and it's stun is a counter in of its own self while also providing damn good anti-infantry support.
Flamers are great and I wish I could afford to deploy them more often, but your main AV as SM is tac missiles and unless you're planning to run 2-3 tac squads (which always feels kind of spammy to me) you can't afford to give up the AV you need in T2/3 for an advantage in T1/2. If Tacs could switch weapons, even just at the HQ and for full price, I'd be whoring flamers in every game.
The times you have trouble using bolters is against Meks and Kommandos, right? Grab an ASM squad if you want to avoid tac spamming. The kommando with a knife can pose a threat to them, however they're one the most annoying things to deal with as the Mek. They're the best counter to the Deffgun. A melta bomb will stop any deff-dred rush in it's tracks. I bet their knockdown works great with a flamer too. Any time with the burn on hurts.
I really don't know the answer here. My 1v1 experience is somewhat lacking. Less than a hundred games.
I understand that's a bunch of power though. Targeters, shotgun for inital scouts, flamer and ASM is 80 power in t1 alone.
ASM have probably caused more of my heroes to die in this game than any other unit. Well, warriors might tie them for that one...
Corp.Shephard on
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Zen VulgarityWhat a lovely day for teaSecret British ThreadRegistered Userregular
Oh my mistake, but where can I get a 400/40 SM artillery unit with no setup time that can disable a vehicle at range? Or how the Carnifex is 650/175 for a walker that regenerates almost as fast as a normal vehicle repairs, including in combat, has 900-1200 health and is in an army that uses much less power than the other three leaving you plenty by T3 to pump out Carnifexes?
Nids aren't really that much less power dependent than the other races. With most builds, I'm always sitting around waiting on power to do anything and certainly don't have a ton just sitting around in T3.
I wouldn't mind a stikkbomba damage nerf if they made it so they threw only one powerful stikkbomb instead of 3. They suffer from the same problem as tankbustas, in that if one of them dies suddenly they don't work anymore. Also, when using stikkbombs against infantry..the first one to go off will knock the infantry away from the second two...which is retarded.
They probably shouldn't instagib gens anyways. Maybe give them a wider area of effect so that they can do a bit of damage to a second generator as well to kind of make up for it. They still have to melee them down the rest of the ways but if the defender is ignoring them they will still pay dearly.
I'm speaking from experience here as well. Let's say you're playing on Siwal Frontier, or however you spell it. The majority of fighting will generally be up at the top if you're an eldar player. It has a good share of resources, but most importantly two VPs, which can stop you from taking excessive ticket loss in the early game.
Fighting up there with three guardian squads and you hero and the ork won't be able to spare much for capping. Meanwhile, you order your freshly built shuriken platform not to support the north, but to take a long route south. Captured points don't reveal much, so you can sneak by easily. You get to the farm, he has about five seconds to somehow disrupt you before generators start exploding. Furthermore, thanks to the terrain, there are only so many ways to approach either generator position. A well placed platform can cover an expected rout of enemy reinforcements, buying time as they either go around, or you get to kill them too.
The worst case scenario you lose your platform. If you took down the whole farm, he would have still lost more. This also forces the ork to split up, which can end very poorly if you keep pressure on north.
I've been running a three guardian one platform farseer build against orks lately to great effect. Brightlance is your first thing out in tier two, other than sargents of course. If you harassed his power, you'll be ready for the deff-dred that is coming. Doom and guide will seal it's fate.
Play against better orkz.
Just point me at em'. I'll give them a run for their money.
Can't seem to get anything but SM and eldar. Ever. Sometimes Nids.
Corp.Shephard on
0
3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
Hmmm lets check today's list of Shit I Have Arbitrarily Decided is OP for 4/1
-Ravener
-Warrior and/or Ripper spam
-Ravener
-Zoanthropes, Carnifex, most of the Tyranid army, etc
-Ravener
-Spore Mines
-Ravener
-Tac spam
-Ravener
-Iron Halo
-Ravener
-Mek mines
-Ravener
-Warlock Champion's Robe and Channeling Runes
-Ravener
-Falcon shields
-Ravener
Only one entry for Orks, avoid a mine Mek and you're in the clear!
Zoeys and Carnies are not OP. You are butthurt because Raveners and AG Wars are way too good.
Oh my mistake, but where can I get a 400/40 SM artillery unit with no setup time that can disable a vehicle at range? Or how the Carnifex is 650/175 for a walker that regenerates almost as fast as a normal vehicle repairs, including in combat, has 900-1200 health and is in an army that uses much less power than the other three leaving you plenty by T3 to pump out Carnifexes?
You don't ever play Nids, do you?
I'm usually sitting around twiddling my thumbs to get the Req just to get one Carnifex, let alone multiple ones.
As for artillery, don't even start that. Plasma devs are so much more ridiculous than the Zoey it's not even funny. You're seriously going to call the Zoey imba but plasma devs fine?
EDIT: Oh yeah, and show me the part where Zoeys do huge amounts of damage and knockback to infantry, and 75% of that damage to vehicles? Oh wait, they don't, they're only useful against vehicles.
Posts
Dont be a prick.
On an unrelated note, mekboy mines are way too good and need a setup time longer than a grenade.
Also stickbommas nade throws should have a longer reuse timer.
Makes sense to not have a longer reuse.
*gets more zeal from blowing up a generator than was used for the stikkbombs*
Nah, you lose ten per generator. You can't one shot the node, so if you use two on that you're losing 26.
I don't think the stikkbomba nerf is necessary. The orks lack anything else that can deal with power quickly. An eldar or SM player can win an initial encounter and then set up a heavy weapon and wipe them out faster at a global surplus. Or hell, just distract the opposing player and sneak a bolter squad over, much like an ork player might do.
An ork can do it slower, for more resources to buy the unit, and at a negative global cost.
I guess the only people who are really screwed here are the nids.
Ok I wasn't actually sure if it was 8 per throw or per bomb, so my mistake.
Yeah but how many SM or Eldar are going to win a T1 encounter against Orks? Aside from the fact that a setup weapon is completely useless against Orks unless they're led by a Warboss, the Mek and Kommando can easily tie it up long enough for Sluggas to overwhelm it. And then you're comparing a unit that can destroy a generator instantly and escape when trouble arrives to an arc firing weapon with a setup and tear down time, the only advantage a setup weapon has is that it can take out a 3-generator farm faster than stikkbommaz, but that requires it to either be ignored or protected the entire time. It just doesn't seem like the global cost is enough when you get all but 9 of it back from destroying the generator.
The mekboy goes through gens just as fast as either heavy weapons team with his wargear gun.
The problem is those heavy weapons teams that sm/eldar have is that they are of dubious use at best against a good ork player, with the mekboy and kommado ready to disrupt them. Especially the plats as they're ungarrisonable.
They're great for killing genfarms sure, I'll grant you that, but two out of three ork heroes are a hard counter to them, and all things being equal, eldar and space marines are not going to win the initial encounter against orks, unless the ork gets pretty badly outplayed.
Which puts sm/eldar on the back foot immediately, and they begin losing 100 req insantly every ten seconds or so assuming the ork player is competent.
Now, it's generally pretty stupid to do this as you're trading 45 precious power for a temporary decrease to the enemy's rate but it's there.
Alternatively, the only other nid T1 hero-independent choice for killing gens is warriors, but they're not even particularly good at it.
Mind you, VC and AG warriors both gib gens pretty hard once you hit T2, so yeah.
Part of my point here is that you don't even have to win the encounter. Misdirection or distraction is suffcient. The amount of time it takes for a bolter squad to take down a whole power farm is probably twice as fast as a Stikkbomba squad. Even faster if you have targeters. I've had plenty of games with eldar that I have routed a force due to some key grenades or an unexpected platform. During which, I moved as quickly as possible and killed the ork's power at little loss of my own.
I imagine it could be harder for SM to pull such a stunt off. After all, their basic troops cost more, in addition to the bolter weapon costing more. Not feasible to split your forces like that, perhaps?
What's the point of having a good tier one however if you cannot bear those fangs against your opponent in a meaningful way? Much the ork game is currently based off of sapping power in order to either out-tech your opponent or stretch that period of superiority. It's not as if SM can't hold their own in tier one either.
Canis:
I don't want to balance the game based off of one hero. All three ork heroes are very powerful and viable choices, something I think has been done well. If you were to significantly change the stikkbomba, these heros would become less viable by proxy. The mekboy's deffgun should not be the only way to harass power in a meaningful way.
Is the real problem here that bolter squads are not worth it against their supposed ideal situation? That is, against a horde race like the orks? If that's the case, don't go nerfing stikkbombas. Buff bolters.
edit: I'll have to respectfully disagree with shurikens platforms against orks. They're a saving grace against them as eldar. All it takes it is a little protection and proper scouting to find their threats and they can be a huge thorn for even the most experienced ork player. You have fleet, use it to gather information.
The SM do not have the luxury of many covering units, although scout sight range is quite good...
Yeah, like it really matters, though.
The enemy having power and the tyranid player being successful have nothing to do with eachother.
T1 against Orks is pretty bad for SM. A Warboss isn't too bad, then you can just do tacs -> heavy bolter and not have too much issue unless your heavy bolter gets in melee from flanking or blown up by stikkbombs. Against a Mek or Kommando you can't afford to deploy one because of how easily countered it is. In either scenario you don't have the extra units to both fight the main Ork army while flanking their power with a heavy bolter team, unless you go for a very extended T1 of double-tac to heavy bolter or tac-ASM to heavy bolter, and that is going to lead to you getting vastly out-teched.
There isn't any way to buff Heavy Bolter squads that would fix the problem of the Mek/Kommando teleporting or infiltrating into melee and locking it down, short of something ridiculous like letting it shoot in melee.
The main issue is that Stikkbommaz can destroy generators quickly and with limited cost or risk, even just destroying one generator before being forced to retreat can add up very quickly if you dedicate a Stikkbommaz squad to this purpose. At least for me (speaking as SM) I don't have the unit count to keep an eye on generators most of the time, especially on maps like Green Tooth Jungle where the enemy player's base is very close to your power source.
Of course I don't think Stikkbommaz are a high priority for nerfing, they're annoying and probably a little OP but there are much bigger balance problems right now.
http://dowcodex.com/Ability:Stikkbommas_Stikkbomb
We JUST mentioned this
I'm speaking from experience here as well. Let's say you're playing on Siwal Frontier, or however you spell it. The majority of fighting will generally be up at the top if you're an eldar player. It has a good share of resources, but most importantly two VPs, which can stop you from taking excessive ticket loss in the early game.
Fighting up there with three guardian squads and you hero and the ork won't be able to spare much for capping. Meanwhile, you order your freshly built shuriken platform not to support the north, but to take a long route south. Captured points don't reveal much, so you can sneak by easily. You get to the farm, he has about five seconds to somehow disrupt you before generators start exploding. Furthermore, thanks to the terrain, there are only so many ways to approach either generator position. A well placed platform can cover an expected rout of enemy reinforcements, buying time as they either go around, or you get to kill them too.
The worst case scenario you lose your platform. If you took down the whole farm, he would have still lost more. This also forces the ork to split up, which can end very poorly if you keep pressure on north.
I've been running a three guardian one platform farseer build against orks lately to great effect. Brightlance is your first thing out in tier two, other than sargents of course. If you harassed his power, you'll be ready for the deff-dred that is coming. Doom and guide will seal it's fate.
Hmmm lets check today's list of Shit I Have Arbitrarily Decided is OP for 4/1
-Ravener
-Warrior and/or Ripper spam
-Ravener
-Zoanthropes, Carnifex, most of the Tyranid army, etc
-Ravener
-Spore Mines
-Ravener
-Tac spam
-Ravener
-Iron Halo
-Ravener
-Mek mines
-Ravener
-Warlock Champion's Robe and Channeling Runes
-Ravener
-Falcon shields
-Ravener
Only one entry for Orks, avoid a mine Mek and you're in the clear!
Oh I guess I missed that. My bad.
And no I dont think orks are overpowered on the balance.
I'll take damage over invincibility.
watching a tac spam get nailed by a psychic storm and be perfectly fine because the apothecary's advanced healing was still ticking off, then be in full health in mere seconds afterwards is frustrating
If you managed to get enough global resource for a Psychic Storm then you didn't fight someone really tac spamming.
I play 3v3, hurk.
And if you don't see fifteen tac squads on the field, you didn't fight someone tac spamming.
Zoeys and Carnies are not OP. You are butthurt because Raveners and AG Wars are way too good.
Also, with ranged nid blob, I'd by far rather play against FC tac mass rather than apoth or TM. FC can be easily neutralized, while nid blob just doesn't have the DPS to burst down apoth who's advanced healing well and Warriors get cut to pieces too easily by TM tac blobs.
Zoan shield is strong, but they lose a large part of it if they want to use their stun. Plus, it drops when they retreat and they move sooooo slowly, that if they're not humping a tunnel or something, they can get in trouble to jumpers, teleporters, or something running out of an enemy tunnel.
Also of note since I don't see it mentioned often, but the stun can miss and hit something else sometimes. It's not common, but I've had it happen.
T1 against Orks is pretty bad for SM. A Warboss isn't too bad, then you can just do tacs -> heavy bolter and not have too much issue unless your heavy bolter gets in melee from flanking or blown up by stikkbombs. Against a Mek or Kommando you can't afford to deploy one because of how easily countered it is. In either scenario you don't have the extra units to both fight the main Ork army while flanking their power with a heavy bolter team, unless you go for a very extended T1 of double-tac to heavy bolter or tac-ASM to heavy bolter, and that is going to lead to you getting vastly out-teched.
There isn't any way to buff Heavy Bolter squads that would fix the problem of the Mek/Kommando teleporting or infiltrating into melee and locking it down, short of something ridiculous like letting it shoot in melee.
The main issue is that Stikkbommaz can destroy generators quickly and with limited cost or risk, even just destroying one generator before being forced to retreat can add up very quickly if you dedicate a Stikkbommaz squad to this purpose. At least for me (speaking as SM) I don't have the unit count to keep an eye on generators most of the time, especially on maps like Green Tooth Jungle where the enemy player's base is very close to your power source.
Of course I don't think Stikkbommaz are a high priority for nerfing, they're annoying and probably a little OP but there are much bigger balance problems right now.
SM v Orks is probably the worst tier one match-up for SM. Cheapening the Heavy Bolter could help here. Not sure if it's enough, but...
I'm not convinced that Stikkbombas are really OP here. They're no tougher than a slugga squad and cost a good amount more. Even a forced retreat after a single generator can shift the balance of power until they hit the field again.
Funny enough, I see flamers deployed against my eldar to greater effect than against my orks... Flamer tacs are monsters against guardians and banshees, and I can't even tie them up. Flamer tacs also kill generators with a degree of competency. They're a nightmare for eldar, but not orks. Maybe that's the problem... the weapons available to support the heavy bolter aren't effective enough.
Zoeys are overpowered in that they're the perfect armor hard-counter. I already did a number on this one, but basically every other races have to combine two forms of AT to counter most armored threats. The zoey, between range and it's stun is a counter in of its own self while also providing damn good anti-infantry support.
Oh my mistake, but where can I get a 400/40 SM artillery unit with no setup time that can disable a vehicle at range? Or how the Carnifex is 650/175 for a walker that regenerates almost as fast as a normal vehicle repairs, including in combat, has 900-1200 health and is in an army that uses much less power than the other three leaving you plenty by T3 to pump out Carnifexes?
The ability range alone was the entire screen and then some.
SM v Orks is probably the worst tier one match-up for SM. Cheapening the Heavy Bolter could help here. Not sure if it's enough, but...
I'm not convinced that Stikkbombas are really OP here. They're no tougher than a slugga squad and cost a good amount more. Even a forced retreat after a single generator can shift the balance of power until they hit the field again.
Funny enough, I see flamers deployed against my eldar to greater effect than against my orks... Flamer tacs are monsters against guardians and banshees, and I can't even tie them up. Flamer tacs also kill generators with a degree of competency. They're a nightmare for eldar, but not orks. Maybe that's the problem... the weapons available to support the heavy bolter aren't effective enough.
Zoeys are overpowered in that they're the perfect armor hard-counter. I already did a number on this one, but basically every other races have to combine two forms of AT to counter most armored threats. The zoey, between range and it's stun is a counter in of its own self while also providing damn good anti-infantry support.
Flamers are great and I wish I could afford to deploy them more often, but your main AV as SM is tac missiles and unless you're planning to run 2-3 tac squads (which always feels kind of spammy to me) you can't afford to give up the AV you need in T2/3 for an advantage in T1/2. If Tacs could switch weapons, even just at the HQ and for full price, I'd be whoring flamers in every game.
I'm not convinced that Stikkbombas are really OP here. They're no tougher than a slugga squad and cost a good amount more. Even a forced retreat after a single generator can shift the balance of power until they hit the field again.
Funny enough, I see flamers deployed against my eldar to greater effect than against my orks... Flamer tacs are monsters against guardians and banshees, and I can't even tie them up. Flamer tacs also kill generators with a degree of competency. They're a nightmare for eldar, but not orks. Maybe that's the problem... the weapons available to support the heavy bolter aren't effective enough.
Zoeys are overpowered in that they're the perfect armor hard-counter. I already did a number on this one, but basically every other races have to combine two forms of AT to counter most armored threats. The zoey, between range and it's stun is a counter in of its own self while also providing damn good anti-infantry support.
Flamers are great and I wish I could afford to deploy them more often, but your main AV as SM is tac missiles and unless you're planning to run 2-3 tac squads (which always feels kind of spammy to me) you can't afford to give up the AV you need in T2/3 for an advantage in T1/2. If Tacs could switch weapons, even just at the HQ and for full price, I'd be whoring flamers in every game.
The times you have trouble using bolters is against Meks and Kommandos, right? Grab an ASM squad if you want to avoid tac spamming. The kommando with a knife can pose a threat to them, however they're one the most annoying things to deal with as the Mek. They're the best counter to the Deffgun. A melta bomb will stop any deff-dred rush in it's tracks. I bet their knockdown works great with a flamer too. Any time with the burn on hurts.
I really don't know the answer here. My 1v1 experience is somewhat lacking. Less than a hundred games.
I understand that's a bunch of power though. Targeters, shotgun for inital scouts, flamer and ASM is 80 power in t1 alone.
ASM have probably caused more of my heroes to die in this game than any other unit. Well, warriors might tie them for that one...
No one else cares.
They probably shouldn't instagib gens anyways. Maybe give them a wider area of effect so that they can do a bit of damage to a second generator as well to kind of make up for it. They still have to melee them down the rest of the ways but if the defender is ignoring them they will still pay dearly.
Just point me at em'. I'll give them a run for their money.
Can't seem to get anything but SM and eldar. Ever. Sometimes Nids.
You don't ever play Nids, do you?
I'm usually sitting around twiddling my thumbs to get the Req just to get one Carnifex, let alone multiple ones.
As for artillery, don't even start that. Plasma devs are so much more ridiculous than the Zoey it's not even funny. You're seriously going to call the Zoey imba but plasma devs fine?
EDIT: Oh yeah, and show me the part where Zoeys do huge amounts of damage and knockback to infantry, and 75% of that damage to vehicles? Oh wait, they don't, they're only useful against vehicles.