Starcraft Online?

1235

Posts

  • AresProphetAresProphet I see a darkness in my fate I'll drive my car without the brakesRegistered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Morskittar wrote: »
    Would you say that niche, then, is a subset of an established market rather than a possible description for an emerging or yet-to-emerge market?

    M-W's closest definition is probably "a specialized market" which could go either way. Computers were a specialized market before becoming mainstream, which would be niche by this definition.

    And MMO subs were on the rise well before WoW came along. It just accelerated the process.

    I'd say they stopped being niche some time before FFXI came out, because if Square-Enix is doing it then people are gonna know about it. But I wouldn't be able to pinpoint that for you, it's an inexact definition anyway.

    AresProphet on
    oh, gimme some time
    show me the foothold from which I can climb
    yeah, when I feel low
    you show me a signpost for where I should go
  • LucascraftLucascraft Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    I would say that neither fantasy nor sci-fi are niche. These are the 2 most popular genres in all of gaming. And WoW has many fantasy predecessors. UO, EQ, EQ2, Asheron's Call, Asheron's Call 2, FFXI, and Dark Age of Camelot all came before WoW did.

    I would say City of Heroes and The Matrix Online are much closer to the idea of a "niche market" product, although at this point CoH has pretty well entered the mainstream as one of the most successful MMOs of all time.

    As far as lifespan of MMOs go, I think the estimate of "a year or two" for WoW interest to die down is not very realistic. EQ1 has been going for over 10 years and it still has a fairly loyal fanbase after all this time.

    Anything Blizzard makes will be directly competing with themselves. But as long as they retain subscriptions for one game or another, I don't think they really care.

    In all honesty, they are probably shooting for numbers somewhere along these lines:

    40% move from WoW to new MMO
    50% move from other MMO to new MMO
    10% are completely new customers to the MMO space

    Where 100% equals the total subscription base of the new MMO they are making.

    Lucascraft on
  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    It just occurs to me that it's not a matter of theme that we should be considering (Scifi, fantasy, etc.) it's a matter of design. I think their next MMO will be PvP oriented.

    Undead Scottsman on
  • LucascraftLucascraft Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    It just occurs to me that it's not a matter of theme that we should be considering (Scifi, fantasy, etc.) it's a matter of design. I think their next MMO will be PvP oriented.

    Yeah, I said that back on the first page --
    Lucascraft wrote: »
    Here's a few fairly solid assumptions I think we can make, regarding a new Blizzard MMO:

    -- It will be in a different genre than WoW. The next game will not be fantasy. That means no Diablo.
    -- The gameplay and style of the game will be different enough from WoW that it will appeal to a different playerbase
    -- It will be a Blizzard game, so whatever genre its in, it will dominate all the other competition.
    -- With as big a focus as Blizzard places on competition, PVP will almost certainly be a focal point of their next MMO.

    Lucascraft on
  • AresProphetAresProphet I see a darkness in my fate I'll drive my car without the brakesRegistered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Lucascraft wrote: »
    I would say that neither fantasy nor sci-fi are niche. These are the 2 most popular genres in all of gaming. And WoW has many fantasy predecessors. UO, EQ, EQ2, Asheron's Call, Asheron's Call 2, FFXI, and Dark Age of Camelot all came before WoW did.

    I would say City of Heroes and The Matrix Online are much closer to the idea of a "niche market" product, although at this point CoH has pretty well entered the mainstream as one of the most successful MMOs of all time.

    As far as lifespan of MMOs go, I think the estimate of "a year or two" for WoW interest to die down is not very realistic. EQ1 has been going for over 10 years and it still has a fairly loyal fanbase after all this time.

    Anything Blizzard makes will be directly competing with themselves. But as long as they retain subscriptions for one game or another, I don't think they really care.

    In all honesty, they are probably shooting for numbers somewhere along these lines:

    40% move from WoW to new MMO
    50% move from other MMO to new MMO
    10% are completely new customers to the MMO space

    Where 100% equals the total subscription base of the new MMO they are making.

    So they'd have to be turning a profit at 60% of their projected subscription numbers. That seems like a lofty goal, especially considering that the marginal cost of adding one more WoW subscriber at this point in next to nothing. Every WoW sub they lose at their current numbers is much close to 100% profit than every one they'd have to shoot for in establishing a new playerbase.

    In short, competing with themselves is a bad business move. They stand to lose as much as (if not more than) their competitors by developing and releaing a new MMO. The up-front cost is enormous and the marginal profits at lower subscription numbers are weak.

    The larger your playerbase is, the more profitable each additional player is, and the more likely to are to attract more players (via critical mass; nobody wants to start playing an empty MMO). It's this positive feedback loop that explains WoW's runaway success and why SoE shot themselves in the feet hard with their handling of post-Verant EQ1. They had the potential to ride the positive feedback, and instead they treated their customers like opponents (the DM effect in action).

    But hindsight is 20/20, and I was one of the people who (mostly) defended SoE in the post-Verant years (up until PoP). Which, ironically, is right about when they turned things around and stopped being tyrannical about certain features but by then I'd quit for the first time so I stopped paying attention.

    AresProphet on
    oh, gimme some time
    show me the foothold from which I can climb
    yeah, when I feel low
    you show me a signpost for where I should go
  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Lucascraft wrote: »
    I would say that neither fantasy nor sci-fi are niche. These are the 2 most popular genres in all of gaming. And WoW has many fantasy predecessors. UO, EQ, EQ2, Asheron's Call, Asheron's Call 2, FFXI, and Dark Age of Camelot all came before WoW did.

    I would say City of Heroes and The Matrix Online are much closer to the idea of a "niche market" product, although at this point CoH has pretty well entered the mainstream as one of the most successful MMOs of all time.

    As far as lifespan of MMOs go, I think the estimate of "a year or two" for WoW interest to die down is not very realistic. EQ1 has been going for over 10 years and it still has a fairly loyal fanbase after all this time.

    Anything Blizzard makes will be directly competing with themselves. But as long as they retain subscriptions for one game or another, I don't think they really care.

    In all honesty, they are probably shooting for numbers somewhere along these lines:

    40% move from WoW to new MMO
    50% move from other MMO to new MMO
    10% are completely new customers to the MMO space

    Where 100% equals the total subscription base of the new MMO they are making.

    So they'd have to be turning a profit at 60% of their projected subscription numbers. That seems like a lofty goal, especially considering that the marginal cost of adding one more WoW subscriber at this point in next to nothing. Every WoW sub they lose at their current numbers is much close to 100% profit than every one they'd have to shoot for in establishing a new playerbase.

    In short, competing with themselves is a bad business move. They stand to lose as much as (if not more than) their competitors by developing and releaing a new MMO. The up-front cost is enormous and the marginal profits at lower subscription numbers are weak.

    The larger your playerbase is, the more profitable each additional player is, and the more likely to are to attract more players (via critical mass; nobody wants to start playing an empty MMO). It's this positive feedback loop that explains WoW's runaway success and why SoE shot themselves in the feet hard with their handling of post-Verant EQ1. They had the potential to ride the positive feedback, and instead they treated their customers like opponents (the DM effect in action).

    But hindsight is 20/20, and I was one of the people who (mostly) defended SoE in the post-Verant years (up until PoP). Which, ironically, is right about when they turned things around and stopped being tyrannical about certain features but by then I'd quit for the first time so I stopped paying attention.

    The thing to realize is that Blizzard has $jupiter. They have so much money that they can afford to take risks like making a new mmo that'll compete with themselves (along with a non mmo rpg sequel). The key thing is they're taking the risk to try and make the next "WoW' and try to bring in another explosion of mmo players. The worst that can happen is they waste a bunch of money. Money that they have ridiculous ammounts of. When you got money to spare, you can take more risks, and that's what this new MMO is: a risk. If it's super successful, blizzard just increases their revenue. If it's just moderately successful, blizzard maintains a status quo but with a wider variety for customer appeal. If it sucks, oh well, Blizzard is still making $jupiter.

    Undead Scottsman on
  • AresProphetAresProphet I see a darkness in my fate I'll drive my car without the brakesRegistered User regular
    edited April 2009
    The thing to realize is that Blizzard has $jupiter. They have so much money that they can afford to take risks like making a new mmo that'll compete with themselves (along with a non mmo-sequel). The key thing is they're taking the risk to try and make the next "WoW' and try to bring in another explosion of mmo players. The worst that can happen is they waste a bunch of money. Money that they have ridiculous ammounts of. When you got money to spare, you can take more risks, and that's what this new MMO is: a risk. If it's super successful, blizzard just increases their revenue. If it's just moderately successful, blizzard maintains a status quo but with a wider variety for customer appeal. If it sucks, oh well, Blizzard is still making $jupiter.

    Somehow I think this argument might be less than convincing to shareholders.

    AresProphet on
    oh, gimme some time
    show me the foothold from which I can climb
    yeah, when I feel low
    you show me a signpost for where I should go
  • MorskittarMorskittar Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Blizzard would *absolutely* care about cannibalizing their own customers. Unless the new game has a higher subscription cost, they're losing money unless developing, marketing, and all for a new game is the *exact same* as maintaining WoW. It's only worth it if there's a longer term gain.

    I really doubt that PvP would be that gain.

    Morskittar on
    snm_sig.jpg
  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    The thing to realize is that Blizzard has $jupiter. They have so much money that they can afford to take risks like making a new mmo that'll compete with themselves (along with a non mmo-sequel). The key thing is they're taking the risk to try and make the next "WoW' and try to bring in another explosion of mmo players. The worst that can happen is they waste a bunch of money. Money that they have ridiculous ammounts of. When you got money to spare, you can take more risks, and that's what this new MMO is: a risk. If it's super successful, blizzard just increases their revenue. If it's just moderately successful, blizzard maintains a status quo but with a wider variety for customer appeal. If it sucks, oh well, Blizzard is still making $jupiter.

    Somehow I think this argument might be less than convincing to shareholders.

    As long as Blizzard is raking in money ass over teakettle, I'm pretty sure the shareholders are fine letting them do whatever the fuck they want. When was the last time Blizzard released a new title that didn't get mad critical acclaim. (I'm talking about general opinon here; not your own personal one. I know a lot of people didn't like War3, or don't like WoW, but try to be a bit more open.)

    I think Mike Morhaime has proven to the shareholders he knows what he's doing.

    Undead Scottsman on
  • ArkanArkan Registered User
    edited April 2009
    I think blizzard is just looking ahead and seeing that WoW isn't going to last forever. Yes, it's a great game and yes I cannot see myself not playing it for the forseeable future- it's affordable to me on a low budget when I'd normally burn through a 60-dollar game in about two days and it's reliably entertaining. But it won't keep going on forever- it's running out outdated mechanics that apparently keep getting in the way of new updates quite often (see: how many times they've pushed back features lately because they can't make them work), an old graphics engine, and eventually it's just going to get numbers creep ingame where everyone is a tiny demigod... plus eventually they'll run out of things in the warcraft universe that people give a shit about.

    I knew this was why they were making the new MMO when I saw some of the stuff they put into WoTLK. A lot of it just seems very final to me, like heirloom items, or the fact that we've killed like 95% of the possible antagonists and are working on the last 5% as we speak; to me, it's almost as if they're expecting 80 to be the highest level anyone will get to in the game. (Although that doesn't rule out the possibility of expansions retrofitting the 1-79 content, but I find that unlikely)

    Personally, I'm expecting an MMOFPS (or maybe even a MMORTS), as both of those seem like really underutilized genres: a few games were developed for each, but they never took off; and Blizzard's modus operandi (sp?) has always been taking obscure, unsuccsessful ideas, fixing the stuff that was broken, polishing the crap out of it, and then releasing it to great success. Plus, MMORPGs have flooded the market as of late, and it would bring up the cannibalism issue for however long WoW continued to remain in operation (probably a long time); whereas a MMO-some-other-genre wouldn't compete with WoW as directly.

    Arkan on
    Big, honkin' pile of WoW characters
    I think it's hard for someone not to rage at mario kart, while shouting "Fuck you Donkey Kong. Whose dick did you suck to get all those red shells?"
  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Morskittar wrote: »
    Blizzard would *absolutely* care about cannibalizing their own customers. Unless the new game has a higher subscription cost, they're losing money unless developing, marketing, and all for a new game is the *exact same* as maintaining WoW. It's only worth it if there's a longer term gain.

    I really doubt that PvP would be that gain.

    Maybe not, but I doubt that would be all their doing. WoW's success lied not in taking over the established MMO player-space, but by expanding it to sizes previously unthought of. This MMO I'm sure is going to try and repeat that.

    Though I just had another theory. Looking at the situtation, even if this new game steals a bunch of players from WoW; that's a GOOD thing for Blizzard. A new MMO could act as a sieve to catch players that get tired of wow or are looking for something new (in addition potentially attracting non-wow players). Instead of checking out SoE or Cryptics new product, they can go with Blizzard new MMO.

    I mean, if they're going to play another game, it's better off for Blizzard that it's one of theirs no matter which way you slice it.

    Undead Scottsman on
  • AresProphetAresProphet I see a darkness in my fate I'll drive my car without the brakesRegistered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Somehow I think this argument might be less than convincing to shareholders.

    As long as Blizzard is raking in money ass over teakettle, I'm pretty sure the shareholders are fine letting them do whatever the fuck they want. When was the last time Blizzard released a new title that didn't get mad critical acclaim. (I'm talking about general opinon here; not your own personal one. I know a lot of people didn't like War3, or don't like WoW, but try to be a bit more open.)

    I think Mike Morhaime has proven to the shareholders he knows what he's doing.

    Blizzard: so we've decided to make less money for a few years in the vain hope that everything we know about business turns out to be wrong
    Shareholders: fuck that, make us more money
    Blizzard: but we've made you so much money already!
    Shareholders: fuck that, make us more money
    Blizzard: but we're still making money, just not as much!
    Shareholders: jesus christ didn't you hear us the first two times?

    Four to six years of dev time and hundreds of millions of dollars spent on directly competing with yourself is bad business, no matter how you slice it.

    Whatever Blizzard's next MMO is, it behooves them to avoid competing with WoW for subs as much as possible, whether it's something radically different in design or a direct sequel. And they need to begin design with a clear idea of how to do that, not start something with no idea how to not cannibalize themselves and trust that they'll come up with a solution two or three years into development.

    AresProphet on
    oh, gimme some time
    show me the foothold from which I can climb
    yeah, when I feel low
    you show me a signpost for where I should go
  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Arkan wrote: »
    I knew this was why they were making the new MMO when I saw some of the stuff they put into WoTLK. A lot of it just seems very final to me, like heirloom items, or the fact that we've killed like 95% of the possible antagonists and are working on the last 5% as we speak

    I have to disagree with that. (Though I can agree that most of the popular ones from War3/frozen throne are gone/going)

    There's still

    -Queen Azshara: Leader of the Naga, who is supposedly more powerful than the Lich King due to tapping directly into the remains of hte old well of Eternity.
    -Deathwing (Rumored to be in patch 3.2)
    -Neptulon, Therezene, and Al'akir (Ragnoros's fellow Elemental Lords, who would be much more powerful, not being summoned in a weakened state like Rag)
    -The remaining three (or two, if one of them is actually dead as rumored) Old Gods
    -Kil'jaeden rematch (you only stop him from being summoned to Azeroth, not kill him)
    -and the biggest of the bad: Sargeras

    There's still the South Seas and the Maelstrom to fill in on the Azeroth map, plus the Elemental Plane and Emerald Dream for otherworldy stuff. And when they run out of that, they can always open a new portal in Outland to an entirely brand new world filled with entirely new stuff.

    There's still plenty of room for WoW to grow. And if there are still people playing Everquest (and buying new expansions), I have no doubt that there's going to be a lot of people playing WoW years and years from now.

    Undead Scottsman on
  • ArthilArthil Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    The thing is that's more or less impossible, at least to some degree. Blizzard had always had a very large fanbase that devoured anything they brought out like it was delishus cake. The company likely has even more people that enjoy the companies products. So... whether they try to differ as much as possible from WoW or not they will have a bit of a loss in subscriptions based on those who will try it simply because it has Blizzards name on it.

    Of course there will also be those who would keep a WoW sub as well as one for whatever new game it is.

    Arthil on
    PSN: Honishimo Steam UPlay: ArthilCwcuLUM.jpg
  • ArkanArkan Registered User
    edited April 2009
    Arkan wrote: »
    I knew this was why they were making the new MMO when I saw some of the stuff they put into WoTLK. A lot of it just seems very final to me, like heirloom items, or the fact that we've killed like 95% of the possible antagonists and are working on the last 5% as we speak

    I have to disagree with that. (Though I can agree that most of the popular ones from War3/frozen throne are gone/going)

    There's still

    -Queen Azshara: Leader of the Naga, who is supposedly more powerful than the Lich King due to tapping directly into the remains of hte old well of Eternity.
    -Deathwing (Rumored to be in patch 3.2)

    These two and whatever the hell is going on in the emerald dream are the only ones I think are likely.
    -Neptulon, Therezene, and Al'akir (Ragnoros's fellow Elemental Lords, who would be much more powerful, not being summoned in a weakened state like Rag)

    Given that these guys barely appear ingame and virtually nobody gives a shit about them outside of the RPG sourcebooks (which aren't necessarily canon until the information within appears ingame- remember the whole "MAIEV CAN'T BE IN BT THE RPG SAID SHE'S DEAD" fiasco?), I doubt this will happen.
    -The remaining three (or two, if one of them is actually dead as rumored) Old Gods

    Well, according to recent updates killing them would also bring about the end of the world, so again: unlikely.
    -Kil'jaeden rematch (you only stop him from being summoned to Azeroth, not kill him)

    I doubt this would happen, simply because it'd be a huge case of "Didn't we already beat this asshole?"
    -and the biggest of the bad: Sargeras

    He's already dead.
    There's still the South Seas and the Maelstrom to fill in on the Azeroth map, plus the Elemental Plane and Emerald Dream for otherworldy stuff. And when they run out of that, they can always open a new portal in Outland to an entirely brand new world filled with entirely new stuff.

    There's still plenty of room for WoW to grow.

    Oh, I'm not saying that there's nothing there in the lore, but most of the remaining ones I find unlikely to be used in the game as bosses for various reasons. I'd say there's maybe one more expansion's worth of raid content in the lore, maybe; but even that's pushing it.

    Arkan on
    Big, honkin' pile of WoW characters
    I think it's hard for someone not to rage at mario kart, while shouting "Fuck you Donkey Kong. Whose dick did you suck to get all those red shells?"
  • AresProphetAresProphet I see a darkness in my fate I'll drive my car without the brakesRegistered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Nazjatar and the Emerald Dream are the only lore pieces I can see inspiring their own expansions. I'd wager cash money on the ED making an expansion some day, Nazjatar/The Maelstrom seems logical but less obvious.

    Everything else on that list seems like content-patch material, at best.

    AresProphet on
    oh, gimme some time
    show me the foothold from which I can climb
    yeah, when I feel low
    you show me a signpost for where I should go
  • ArthilArthil Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Course if one were to believe in 'The List' then the last planned expansion is taking the fight directly to the Burning Legion, and that the next one will be South Seas/Maelstrom and introduce Worgen and Pandaren as races.


    That is if you believe in 'The List' of course.

    Arthil on
    PSN: Honishimo Steam UPlay: ArthilCwcuLUM.jpg
  • ArkanArkan Registered User
    edited April 2009
    Arthil wrote: »
    Course if one were to believe in 'The List' then the last planned expansion is taking the fight directly to the Burning Legion, and that the next one will be South Seas/Maelstrom and introduce Worgen and Pandaren as races.


    That is if you believe in 'The List' of course.

    What list is this, and is there an accompanying list displaying what recreational drugs the writer of the first list was on when writing his deluded fantasies?

    Arkan on
    Big, honkin' pile of WoW characters
    I think it's hard for someone not to rage at mario kart, while shouting "Fuck you Donkey Kong. Whose dick did you suck to get all those red shells?"
  • ArthilArthil Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Never saw the source myself, but it was posted prior to Burning Crusade... or at least perhaps not long after it released. It listed off the names of the expansions, all the zones in each one as well as any races being introduced. It labeled the Wrath of the Lich King zones almost perfectly, the only difference being that you don't really go from Sholazar to Storm Peaks and then to Icecrown in terms of levels.


    Also haven't we kind of turned this into more of a WoW Chat thread ._o?

    Arthil on
    PSN: Honishimo Steam UPlay: ArthilCwcuLUM.jpg
  • ArkanArkan Registered User
    edited April 2009
    Given that the map of northrend was in one of the RPG sourcebooks that Metzen was involved with, and that it was probably a 50/50 shot at the time whether the northrend expansion would be next or a different area and then the northrend expansion, it really isn't that much of a stretch to think someone could have accurately guessed the level distribution in Northrend and predicted it to be the next expansion. Not likely, but not inconceivable either.

    And it has, but there really wasn't much to talk about relating to the original subject, and this topic is fairly interesting as it is. Discussion about what goes on behind the scenes when it comes to MMO development is fairly rare, and I don't just mean discussion of the development of the actual 'meat' of the game- I mean the economic side.

    Arkan on
    Big, honkin' pile of WoW characters
    I think it's hard for someone not to rage at mario kart, while shouting "Fuck you Donkey Kong. Whose dick did you suck to get all those red shells?"
  • ArthilArthil Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    A thread dedicated to that might be better though wouldn't it? I mean from what I could tell this thread was made from what was more than likely an april fools joke.

    Arthil on
    PSN: Honishimo Steam UPlay: ArthilCwcuLUM.jpg
  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    A few points

    -Regarding the Elemental Lords: remember that Ragnoros DID NOT EXIST prior to WoW. They just made him and his fellows up (and really, I doubt there'd only be an Elemental Lord of Fire, so the other ones almost certainly exist. hell, I'm pretty sure WoW mentions that the Princess in Maraudon is the daughter of Therezane.). They also made up Onyxia, Neltharion, all the bosses in AQ20 and 40 (aside from C'thun.. kinda), and all the bosses in Naxxramas aside from Saph and Kel'thuzad just for WoW. The Gronn were made up as well.

    -We've killed two Old Gods (or at least will have after Ulduar) with no ill effect. I highly doubt Blizzard will just drop that plot thread, especially since the current hub-bub is that it's and Old God causing the nightmare in teh emerald dream.

    -We've fought Kael'thas twice, Baron Rivendare twice, and the entire contents of Naxxramas twice if you were lucky enough to raid Naxx back in classic. And all those guys we actually killed. With Kil'jaeden you just sent him back to the twisting Nether before he could fully enter Azeroth. Out of all these guys, he actually has a legitimate reason to pop up again.

    -Actually, Sargeras isn't dead, he's MIA. Quote the Metzen "In an interview to Chris Metzen and Micky Neilson they said that "he's out there somewhere", that "you can’t put him down" and "he’s not going to stay down for long". At last Metzen said: I'd be very disappointed in us if we didn’t leverage him fully." Although, even if he WAS dead, that hasn't stopped a whole host of other characters from coming back. (As retcons, like Magtheridon, or as plot points like Medivh).

    -IMO, there's enough content in the oceanic areas to fill an expansion in itself. (If we include Sunken Kalimdor). For raid mobs, there's Azhara, Neptulon, whatever horrors haunt the Tomb of Sargeras, giant sea monsters, and whatever else they can just make up.

    As for locations... There's Kezan (home to the goblin city of Undermine), Plunder Bay (Home of the Bloodsail Pirates), the Broken Islands (where the Tomb of Sagaras is located), Kul'tiras(Old human naval nation). Tol'borad(prison for powerful supernatural beings), Najatar (Naga capital), Mak'ara (Makura capital), the Maelstrom, old elven ruins in Sunken Kalimdor, the troll occupied island of Zandalar.. and that's just stuff that people know to exist. Blizzard can easily make up a ton more stuff like they did for Wrath.
    Arthil wrote: »
    Never saw the source myself, but it was posted prior to Burning Crusade... or at least perhaps not long after it released. It listed off the names of the expansions, all the zones in each one as well as any races being introduced. It labeled the Wrath of the Lich King zones almost perfectly, the only difference being that you don't really go from Sholazar to Storm Peaks and then to Icecrown in terms of levels.

    A lot of generalized zone information from Wrath was printed years before in one of the RPG supplements, so that's probably where they got the info from.
    Also haven't we kind of turned this into more of a WoW Chat thread ._o?

    Yeah, I suppose. My bad.

    Undead Scottsman on
  • MorskittarMorskittar Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    I wonder how many people playing an MMO that isn't WoW are out of Blizzard's reach. People who could give a fuck about their IP, or are willing to accept less Blizzard-polish than "X".

    Once again, ignoring Asian numbers (as I don't understand that market well enough to speculate at all), that non-WoW MMO player base is like another, what... five, six, eight-hundred thousand? How many of this number would ditch their thing for another MMO? How many more players would be drawn to a new revision of the genre?

    These are rhetorical questions, of course - anyone who has a good idea of the answers is probably too busy adjusting their money hat to post here.

    edit: as for this thread - I find it fascinating to use the biggest MMO developer's plans as a foundation for discussing the MMO business. Seems valid enough for the OP and title.

    Morskittar on
    snm_sig.jpg
  • DisruptorX2DisruptorX2 Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    You fight the air lord as part of the thunderfury questline.

    DisruptorX2 on
    1208768734831.jpg
  • ArkanArkan Registered User
    edited April 2009
    ^^^^ No, Thunderaan isn't equal to Ragnaros in terms of rank; Al'akir would be Ragnaros' air elemental equivalent.


    All of those are good points, except:
    -We've fought Kael'thas twice, Baron Rivendare twice, and the entire contents of Naxxramas twice if you were lucky enough to raid Naxx back in classic. And all those guys we actually killed.

    Yeah, and look how much ridicule it generated on the forums. Especially Kael'thas. "Yeah, I hear he's gonna be the next headless horseman! He just can't stay down!" After that, something tells me they probably won't keep repeating that and repeatedly having the same NPC be bosses in multiple raids. Possible... but it seems silly after that.
    -IMO, there's enough content in the oceanic areas to fill an expansion in itself. (If we include Sunken Kalimdor). For raid mobs, there's Azhara, Neptulon, whatever horrors haunt the Tomb of Sargeras, giant sea monsters, and whatever else they can just make up.

    Yeah, and all of it stuff that nobody gives a damn about. Except Nazjatar (which obviously is impoprtant) and the Tomb of Sargeras (which, if you recall, Illidan pillaged in WCIII and then collapsed). And Neptulon isn't native to the oceans of Azeroth, specifically.

    Arkan on
    Big, honkin' pile of WoW characters
    I think it's hard for someone not to rage at mario kart, while shouting "Fuck you Donkey Kong. Whose dick did you suck to get all those red shells?"
  • MorskittarMorskittar Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    What's at the top of the world, past the villainous badass guarding things? Maybe an old portal to a dimension full of evil entities and infinite permutations of reality?

    That could be a source of content for years.

    Morskittar on
    snm_sig.jpg
  • ArkanArkan Registered User
    edited April 2009
    Morskittar wrote: »
    What's at the top of the world, past the villainous badass guarding things? Maybe an old portal to a dimension full of evil entities and infinite permutations of reality?

    That could be a source of content for years.

    You can only pull so much interesting stuff out of your ass before you run out and it just becomes shit. Blizzard knows better; they'd move onto a new IP before they did that.

    And whaddaya know, they are making a new IP! Isn't that funny?

    Arkan on
    Big, honkin' pile of WoW characters
    I think it's hard for someone not to rage at mario kart, while shouting "Fuck you Donkey Kong. Whose dick did you suck to get all those red shells?"
  • DisruptorX2DisruptorX2 Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Funniest thing about the new content in TBC was that SA had put out an RPG/MMO article a few years beforehand that discussed the inanity of gaining higher levels in order to then be able to fight more difficult red orcs. :x Oh you, Blizzard.

    As for Rivendare, I felt that throwing him in there again was more of a nod to longtime players. He's not a plot character, just a cool dude who hadn't been doing anything for a long time.

    DisruptorX2 on
    1208768734831.jpg
  • MorskittarMorskittar Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    They should make an IP that involves cyberpunk skirmishes for gang territory and control in the underbelly of a decaying megacity.

    Morskittar on
    snm_sig.jpg
  • ArkanArkan Registered User
    edited April 2009
    Morskittar wrote: »
    They should make an IP that involves cyberpunk skirmishes for gang territory and control in the underbelly of a decaying megacity.

    And make it be a claustrophobic indoors-style FPS type of game instead of this "oh it's a horrible war but we're outside with birds and trees" type shit that's been clogging the market.

    The kind of game... like painkiller, or doom. Those games don't get enough recognition for being pure mindless fun these days outside of obscure corners of the internet like this one.

    Arkan on
    Big, honkin' pile of WoW characters
    I think it's hard for someone not to rage at mario kart, while shouting "Fuck you Donkey Kong. Whose dick did you suck to get all those red shells?"
  • DisruptorX2DisruptorX2 Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Morskittar wrote: »
    They should make an IP that involves cyberpunk skirmishes for gang territory and control in the underbelly of a decaying megacity.

    Blizzard should adopt the GW business model. The game developers who actually like playing games push out cool new ideas, then the company which is run by lawyers immediately stop all promotion and support for new games after a few months!

    DisruptorX2 on
    1208768734831.jpg
  • MorskittarMorskittar Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Morskittar wrote: »
    They should make an IP that involves cyberpunk skirmishes for gang territory and control in the underbelly of a decaying megacity.

    Blizzard should adopt the GW business model. The game developers who actually like playing games push out cool new ideas, then the company which is run by lawyers immediately stop all promotion and support for new games after a few months!

    :^:

    Blizzard 2012: they license a popular movie update of an old and beloved series of novels, only to be burdened by this commitment once the movies pass and popularity declines.

    Then they buy a server hardware company and manage to reduce costs enough to survive and begin to thrive again.

    Morskittar on
    snm_sig.jpg
  • AresProphetAresProphet I see a darkness in my fate I'll drive my car without the brakesRegistered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Morskittar wrote: »
    What's at the top of the world, past the villainous badass guarding things? Maybe an old portal to a dimension full of evil entities and infinite permutations of reality?

    That could be a source of content for years.

    Caverns of Time is already in the game

    AresProphet on
    oh, gimme some time
    show me the foothold from which I can climb
    yeah, when I feel low
    you show me a signpost for where I should go
  • MorskittarMorskittar Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Morskittar wrote: »
    What's at the top of the world, past the villainous badass guarding things? Maybe an old portal to a dimension full of evil entities and infinite permutations of reality?

    That could be a source of content for years.

    Caverns of Time is already in the game

    Of course they are!

    Morskittar on
    snm_sig.jpg
  • ArthilArthil Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    I really don't get the whole 'People Don't Give A Shit About It' thing. Makes no damn sense. For one how in the hell could you know people wouldn't give a damn? I don't know about others but the things an expansion set on/under the sea itself would bring would be fucking -awesome-. Player/guild owned ships/travelingturtles/whathaveyou.

    Arthil on
    PSN: Honishimo Steam UPlay: ArthilCwcuLUM.jpg
  • ArkanArkan Registered User
    edited April 2009
    Arthil wrote: »
    I really don't get the whole 'People Don't Give A Shit About It' thing. Makes no damn sense. For one how in the hell could you know people wouldn't give a damn? I don't know about others but the things an expansion set on/under the sea itself would bring would be fucking -awesome-. Player/guild owned ships/travelingturtles/whathaveyou.

    Well yeah, but there's Nazjatar for that. We don't need to go around making crap up to fill in an underwater expansion when there's a perfectly serviceable underwater city populated by evil sea-witches serving an unholy lovecraftian god right over there.

    Arkan on
    Big, honkin' pile of WoW characters
    I think it's hard for someone not to rage at mario kart, while shouting "Fuck you Donkey Kong. Whose dick did you suck to get all those red shells?"
  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Somehow I think this argument might be less than convincing to shareholders.

    As long as Blizzard is raking in money ass over teakettle, I'm pretty sure the shareholders are fine letting them do whatever the fuck they want. When was the last time Blizzard released a new title that didn't get mad critical acclaim. (I'm talking about general opinon here; not your own personal one. I know a lot of people didn't like War3, or don't like WoW, but try to be a bit more open.)

    I think Mike Morhaime has proven to the shareholders he knows what he's doing.

    Blizzard: so we've decided to make less money for a few years in the vain hope that everything we know about business turns out to be wrong
    Shareholders: fuck that, make us more money
    Blizzard: but we've made you so much money already!
    Shareholders: fuck that, make us more money
    Blizzard: but we're still making money, just not as much!
    Shareholders: jesus christ didn't you hear us the first two times?

    Four to six years of dev time and hundreds of millions of dollars spent on directly competing with yourself is bad business, no matter how you slice it.

    Whatever Blizzard's next MMO is, it behooves them to avoid competing with WoW for subs as much as possible, whether it's something radically different in design or a direct sequel. And they need to begin design with a clear idea of how to do that, not start something with no idea how to not cannibalize themselves and trust that they'll come up with a solution two or three years into development.

    Fair enough, though the scuttlebutt I've heard is that while they wanted to go all out and reinvent the entire genre, they eventually settled on something more traditional during the conceptual meeting. That's mostly hearsay though.

    But I'd like to again bring up the point of how if people leave WoW for Blizzard MMO #2 (Hereby referred to as BM2), then they're not leaving WoW to a competitor of Blizzard's. That money will continue to stay in house. Attrition is unavoidable, so having an alternative available isn't a bad idea. Especially since by the time it's ready, WoW will have GOT to be starting to wane finally. (At least I would hope so.. it'd be scary if it just kept growing and growing.).

    Also, RISK IS A PART OF BUSINESS. Blizzard has the a giant cushion of money at the moment, so they can attempt risky things and only lose SOME money in the longrun. (Hell, we're not even talking about losses here; we're talking about smaller profits) And again, Blizzard's track record adds credence to their talks with shareholders. They've made hit after hit after hit. It may not be so hard to convince them that they can do it again. I mean, the way you paint it, there would be no way EVER that any company would ever do anything risky if it had shareholders.

    Per the storyline stuff

    -Again though, Kil'jaeden wasn't killed. Even disregarding the opinion of fighting him a second time, the fact remains that he's still out there. Either Blizzard just drops the plotline entirely (which fans would complain about.), they re-involve him in the plot but don't let people fight him (fans would complain) or they create a new encounter involving him (which fans would complain about, I guess?)

    -Did anyone give a damn about all that other crap Blizzard made up for WoW? Ragnoros, Deathwing's kids, etc. etc.? Really, people who are into Lore LIKE having new stuff to learn about. People who don't give a shit about lore.. well.. don't give a shit about lore, pure and simple. They won't care if it has a rich history within the Warcrat mythos or not

    Shit, I remember a time when the stupid as shit like Wyverns and Night Elfs and Kalimdor was entirely brand new to the universe. Fans learned to care for that stuff well enough.

    -If Neptulon holds some sway over the ocean though; a lot of his minions pop up frequently. I imagine if we were ever going to fight him outside of the Elemental Plane, ala Rag, then it would be during an ocean expansion.
    Arkan wrote: »
    Well yeah, but there's Nazjatar for that. We don't need to go around making crap up to fill in an underwater expansion when there's a perfectly serviceable underwater city populated by evil sea-witches serving an unholy lovecraftian god right over there.
    Nobody is saying that man. :) We're not saying Blizzard makes up something to put "right over there" as you say. We're saying they can make up something to put "across the way from right over there." Najatar would be a zone at best IMO. (It's only a city after all.) They'll need more than that to fill an expansion. :D

    Undead Scottsman on
  • ArkanArkan Registered User
    edited April 2009
    Perhaps we're not interpreting each other correctly.

    What I'm saying is that there's no reason to make an expansion devoted to content that has no bearing with the current storyline. Yeah they pull some crazy stuff, but virtually everything so far has been relevant to something existing in the storyline already, and the one exception (AQ40) really set the pace for where the overall storyline is going with the old gods is such. So yeah, they could do that if need be, but it wouldn't be an expansion by itself- it'd be a side thing, sort of like Sartharian is to WoTLK.

    What you are saying (or seem to be saying) is that if blizzard was so inclined they could churn out expansion after expansion of stuff they just made up for the sake of filling the boxes to sell, which is not only retarded, but against blizzard's policy of putting out quality content. At one point you said something that to me was something like "Yeah we can have the nazjatar expansion, and then another expansion with undersea stuff of suchandsuch"... I get the feeling you're saying "expansion" when you mean "content patches".

    There really needs to be this 'core' of stuff in the expansion that has some continuity with what came before- they're not going to just go "Oh, and now magical negaunicorns attack azeroth and we have to invade their home plane!". Otherwise it's just meaningless content.

    Arkan on
    Big, honkin' pile of WoW characters
    I think it's hard for someone not to rage at mario kart, while shouting "Fuck you Donkey Kong. Whose dick did you suck to get all those red shells?"
  • DisruptorX2DisruptorX2 Registered User regular
    edited April 2009
    Arkan wrote: »
    Perhaps we're not interpreting each other correctly.

    What I'm saying is that there's no reason to make an expansion devoted to content that has no bearing with the current storyline. Yeah they pull some crazy stuff, but virtually everything so far has been relevant to something existing in the storyline already, and the one exception (AQ40) really set the pace for where the overall storyline is going with the old gods is such. So yeah, they could do that if need be, but it wouldn't be an expansion by itself- it'd be a side thing, sort of like Sartharian is to WoTLK.

    What you are saying (or seem to be saying) is that if blizzard was so inclined they could churn out expansion after expansion of stuff they just made up for the sake of filling the boxes to sell, which is not only retarded, but against blizzard's policy of putting out quality content. At one point you said something that to me was something like "Yeah we can have the nazjatar expansion, and then another expansion with undersea stuff of suchandsuch"... I get the feeling you're saying "expansion" when you mean "content patches".

    There really needs to be this 'core' of stuff in the expansion that has some continuity with what came before- they're not going to just go "Oh, and now magical negaunicorns attack azeroth and we have to invade their home plane!". Otherwise it's just meaningless content.

    In this post you are implying that a)there is some sort of narrative storyline in WoW and b)it is worth pursuing. Those are awfully large assumptions.

    DisruptorX2 on
    1208768734831.jpg
  • ArkanArkan Registered User
    edited April 2009
    Arkan wrote: »
    Perhaps we're not interpreting each other correctly.

    What I'm saying is that there's no reason to make an expansion devoted to content that has no bearing with the current storyline. Yeah they pull some crazy stuff, but virtually everything so far has been relevant to something existing in the storyline already, and the one exception (AQ40) really set the pace for where the overall storyline is going with the old gods is such. So yeah, they could do that if need be, but it wouldn't be an expansion by itself- it'd be a side thing, sort of like Sartharian is to WoTLK.

    What you are saying (or seem to be saying) is that if blizzard was so inclined they could churn out expansion after expansion of stuff they just made up for the sake of filling the boxes to sell, which is not only retarded, but against blizzard's policy of putting out quality content. At one point you said something that to me was something like "Yeah we can have the nazjatar expansion, and then another expansion with undersea stuff of suchandsuch"... I get the feeling you're saying "expansion" when you mean "content patches".

    There really needs to be this 'core' of stuff in the expansion that has some continuity with what came before- they're not going to just go "Oh, and now magical negaunicorns attack azeroth and we have to invade their home plane!". Otherwise it's just meaningless content.

    In this post you are implying that a)there is some sort of narrative storyline in WoW and b)it is worth pursuing. Those are awfully large assumptions.

    There is a storyline. It's not amazingly coherent award-winning novelist-grade material, but it's there.

    To get an idea of what I mean, look at the negative reaction to TBC. Illidan had virtually no presence in vanilla WoW, and suddenly we were going to a completely different setting than what we were used to, with the ultimate goal of the expansion being a guy we're killing who hasn't even been around for a while for really poorly-defined reasons.

    People bitched a lot about that, and it's part of the reason why Arthas and a lot of instance bosses have a much stronger presence outside their respective instances in WoTLK- Blizzard wants to make the people who actually pay attention to the storyline care about these bosses that we're killing, not just shovel Mook Number 595 at us.

    And that was with Illidan, one of the main characters of WCIII. Now take that exact same scenario that played out in TBC, except replace Illidan with a character completely original to that expansion. People would just be going "Why the fuck are we killing this guy, again?"

    Arkan on
    Big, honkin' pile of WoW characters
    I think it's hard for someone not to rage at mario kart, while shouting "Fuck you Donkey Kong. Whose dick did you suck to get all those red shells?"
Sign In or Register to comment.