I know that this is nigh-on impossible to ask for, but this thread exists, and damnit, I'm going to ask for it.
I want to see "faggot" treated as hate speech in terms of moderation.
This is a pretty personal demand, I realize, but I can't think of anything that makes me cringe more when reading something on the forums and seeing "faggot" plastered all over it. I guess this wouldn't really apply to SE++, either.
The thing is that I know that the forums are trying to be more welcoming to new people, and this rule is kind of a tossup. On one hand it's intimidating to people who use "faggot" in everyday language, which is a huge chunk of the gaming population at large, but on the other it's a lot easier on people like myself who think it's no different from other hate speech.
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I don't really think the whole racism/homophobia thing is a huge problem on these boards; I don't get out of D&D and H/A as much as I probably should, but, in my experience, we're all pretty hard on that sort of stuff.
Well said. I agree, to a certain extent, but I guess I still see a problem with "Man, I hate those shotgun faggots in CS" just as much as I see a problem with "Stop being such a camping nigger" or something similar. The problem is that it's unnecessary and offensive to a chunk of potential community members. Hate speech should be defined by content, not context, especially for the purpose of having a welcoming forum.
It would be like banning the word "gyp," because it, at one time, referred to gypsies as people likely to cheat/steal from you.
There is an extent to which we have to consider the tone of the comic as well. Personally, I'm not into banning particular words at all, because I believe hate speech is about context, but I see your point. It's basically an issue that I personally don't see a "correct" answer to.
The racism rule in SE, for reference, was created because the amount of racist speech (most, if not all, of which was "ironic" or joking) had become utterly ridiculous, and it became clear that people weren't going to stop on their own.
Also I really like calling people faggot, I have to admit. I just like the word. It's an immature pleasure I have.
This I wholeheartedly disagree with. "Faggot" has lost none of it's hateful meaning as long as it's used in hateful and violent ways. As for a "zero-tolerance" policy, that's the difference between jailing and banning. "Hey, here's a warning, don't do that again" vs. GTFO.
In the outside world, perhaps it hasn't. On the forums, it certainly has. Some of the most enthusiastic throwers of the insult are openly gay.
This is true, but it's also not worth lobbying for because, no matter how much it's lobbied for, it isn't going to happen under any circumstances. Sorry to those of you who were hoping for this.
I don't see a 100% good solution either, but I'm just asking for what I want out of the situation. I still argue that hate speech is defined by content vs context, because the "context" of hate speech is largely determined by the person saying it - and they're not the ones who will be offended/put off by it.
I'm sorry, but no.
The most enthusiastic throwers of the insult being openly gay has zero bearing on it's offensiveness at all. They don't get to be spokespeople for the entire population of homosexuals or others who are offended by it. I also fail to see how this runs counter to the argument that seeing that word in common usage on the forums is unwelcoming. In fact, arguing that the word has a different meaning on the forums only furthers that point.
I'd imagine that people who are particularly offended by such speech might be similarly offended by content in the comic itself.
Really? Because I've never been offended by a PA comic, ever. Could you maybe provide some examples to your hypothesis?
So what? This is supposed to be a welcoming forum to outsiders, and not every gamer plays online. As I've said, the hateful connotation isn't universal - it's incredibly offensive to some people regardless of the context, or the community.
Uh, we have the worst comic search ever, but I'm fairly sure that the word gay has been used in a derogatory sense in the comics, and there was a huge kerfuffle over perceived racism in a comic once. There was a case fairly recently in SE of a gay man who found a great deal of the comics offensive.
I don't believe any word should be banned but I do think some shoudl be discouraged. Considering people are still being killed in America, and around the world, because they are "faggots" I'd say that is one word no one should be using.
That to me is the difference between a content filter and a mod-enforced rule. Nobody is censored, but they are held accountable.
But we're talking about these forums, and you would be hard pressed to convince me that such discrimination exists here. Say what you like about SE, but it is in no way anti gay.
I think banning ugly words gives them power, and I don't hold with giving words like faggot and nigger any more power than they already have.
I guess that just raises the point that if the comics are offensive, does that give the ability for the forums to be equally so? As long as we're within some grey-area boundary set by the tone and content of the comics, are we using acceptable language? Hell - I've read all the comics, but I read them far less often than I read the forums.
Perhaps not to regulars, but to new posters
I don't think I'd be hard-pressed at all to show you that people on these forums discriminate against homosexuals. Asking people to provide examples of homophobia in a gaming community isn't exactly difficult.
Yeah, I figure it does to be honest. I think that being the Penny-Arcade forums means that readers can expect a similar tone to the comics. It would be churlish to forbid the word "fuck" now wouldn't it?
Use of the word faggot does not necessarily equal homophobia. I'm afraid we'll have to disagree on this. It is about context. The word only has power if you give it that power.
I would have put sexist into quotes, too, but man. I think more guys here have women issues than actual issues with gay people.
I don't think the rape jokes/kitchen jokes/etc jokes should all be banned necessarily, but I think there is a lack of consistency with banning some derogatory comments and not others.
If you and I throw around the word faggot in a casual conversation, we both know that it's not meant to be discriminatory or hateful. We both know that these forums are open-minded and tolerant. New users, however, could see the word faggot thrown around and take it as discrimination.
Yeah, sorry, I saw your previous post and forgot to reply. I see your point, but would point out that said people would likely be similarly offended by content in the comic.
So you can't get every single insult. You just need to make the distinction between the mildly imflammatory and the significantly inflammatory.
And, of course, in H/A, we really have no patience for it whatsoever.
I don't think that the forums themselves discriminate, to further clarify my initial statement - but people on them do, and that can be intimidating to new forumers and even people like myself who have learned to shrug it off over time.
I think that distinction comes with context. I think banning words outright without considering context is foolish, and as I've said, adds power to both the word and the discrimination.
I don't know, I've seen some pretty insanely misogynistic things in G&T and elsewhere go totally unnoticed - but that's a whole other topic.
But is this true from the perspective of the opressed minority? Not everyone who's offended by hate speech cares about the context that it's used, and I'd say that by and large the only people who DO care about the context are the people who are defending their casual usage of hate speech.
This isn't to say that we should make the forums comfortable for prudes or hypersensitives who would demand a PG friendly environment. After someone has been here a while, they may no longer perceive a forumer's use of the word as being offensive, but again, that's not really the point. You have to acknowledge that a reasonable person can find "faggot" to be reasonably offensive, online forum or no.
As has been mentioned above, banning the word outright is a foolish decision that would probably only make things worse. A better policy would be that if someone calls you out for saying something that crosses the line, it's reasonable to expect an apology. If someone isn't willing to apologize for using such language when they probably should have known better, or isn't willing to accept an apology from the offender, well, nice to know you, and GTFO.
I disagree. Hate speech isn't about the word faggot. It's about hate. That word has no power on it's own. I understand completely that people are offended by specific words, on their own, without context, but I believe it's foolish and I don't think it should be encouraged. I say this with full understanding that I have my own word triggers that I am equally foolish about.
I've read a decent number of the posts, and I havent' seen the word faggot used in a discriminatory fashion in a long time.
I recognise the problem, I just don't necessarily agree on an effective solution.
Absolutely. Well said.