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"Being true to yourself" versus the real world [lock me]
wasted pixels
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I'm an atheist. I first started having doubts about Christianity as a very small child, and I tried to silence those doubts by investing myself more and more in the church (in fact, I was considering a career as a minister during my college years). Eventually, though, I realized that I was betraying my conscience by pretending to believe in something.
That has left me in an awkward position over the last few years, as most of my oldest, dearest friends are devout Christians. When asked why I no longer go to church, I've simply said, "I have a lot of problems with organized religion," and while there have been some concerns raised (and even an attempted intervention), they've generally accepted that I just don't like the dogma. I've felt a little guilty about this, because it seems like I've been dishonest with people: I've let them believe I'm still a practicing Christian who just dislikes the establishment. My friends are good people, please don't get the wrong idea, but if you've ever been close to members of the fundamentalist movement, you'll understand why "oh hey, I'm an atheist now" would probably be the end of these (otherwise wonderful) friendships.
Here's where the H/A part kind of comes in, because I'm in a position I don't know how to address without compromising either my friendships or my integrity.
One of my friends has somehow made a connection between me and one of my internet aliases. I participate on an non-believer message forum, and while I've been VERY careful to keep both my real life and the rest of my internet life away from that forum, he still found me somehow. He sent me a little note telling me how disappointed he was that I'd felt the need to lie to my friends all these years, and he passed a few choice links on to other members of our circle. While I didn't say anything unflattering about the religious, simply being an atheist is crime enough as far as most Christians are concerned (and you know how vitriolic internet forums get -- anything bad anyone on that forum has said about Christians is being put in my mouth).
My first question is, do I have a right to be hurt? Yes, I was shoved out of the closet, but at the same time, I willfully let people believe that I was still a Christian. I never explicitly said I was, but I was perfectly happy to let people assume as much. I feel like I've been caught in a lie, and that maybe I brought this on myself.
My second question conflicts with the first, though: it's entirely possible that I can lie my way out of this -- would it be wrong to try to maintain the status quo? I don't like the idea of misleading people about such a key part of who I am as a person, but I don't want to lose my friends just because of a belief (or lack thereof) that wasn't even a factor in anything yesterday. My lack of faith doesn't mean I can't enjoy watching movies or playing baseball with these people, and I guess it seems like saying they've got the wrong guy, everything could go back to normal and nobody would get hurt. It also heads off the inevitable "I'm calling about your son" call that my parents are going to get if I don't deny this.
So do I lie to my friends, or do I lose them?
That has left me in an awkward position over the last few years, as most of my oldest, dearest friends are devout Christians. When asked why I no longer go to church, I've simply said, "I have a lot of problems with organized religion," and while there have been some concerns raised (and even an attempted intervention), they've generally accepted that I just don't like the dogma. I've felt a little guilty about this, because it seems like I've been dishonest with people: I've let them believe I'm still a practicing Christian who just dislikes the establishment. My friends are good people, please don't get the wrong idea, but if you've ever been close to members of the fundamentalist movement, you'll understand why "oh hey, I'm an atheist now" would probably be the end of these (otherwise wonderful) friendships.
Here's where the H/A part kind of comes in, because I'm in a position I don't know how to address without compromising either my friendships or my integrity.
One of my friends has somehow made a connection between me and one of my internet aliases. I participate on an non-believer message forum, and while I've been VERY careful to keep both my real life and the rest of my internet life away from that forum, he still found me somehow. He sent me a little note telling me how disappointed he was that I'd felt the need to lie to my friends all these years, and he passed a few choice links on to other members of our circle. While I didn't say anything unflattering about the religious, simply being an atheist is crime enough as far as most Christians are concerned (and you know how vitriolic internet forums get -- anything bad anyone on that forum has said about Christians is being put in my mouth).
My first question is, do I have a right to be hurt? Yes, I was shoved out of the closet, but at the same time, I willfully let people believe that I was still a Christian. I never explicitly said I was, but I was perfectly happy to let people assume as much. I feel like I've been caught in a lie, and that maybe I brought this on myself.
My second question conflicts with the first, though: it's entirely possible that I can lie my way out of this -- would it be wrong to try to maintain the status quo? I don't like the idea of misleading people about such a key part of who I am as a person, but I don't want to lose my friends just because of a belief (or lack thereof) that wasn't even a factor in anything yesterday. My lack of faith doesn't mean I can't enjoy watching movies or playing baseball with these people, and I guess it seems like saying they've got the wrong guy, everything could go back to normal and nobody would get hurt. It also heads off the inevitable "I'm calling about your son" call that my parents are going to get if I don't deny this.
So do I lie to my friends, or do I lose them?
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Religion is just an opinion like your favorite movie or color, nothing more.
Think of it this way: What if you were gay, and came out of the closet, and suddenly these friends stopped talking to you or hanging with you?
I think you have every right to be hurt. I don't understand why this 'friend' would do that to you. There was absolutely no reason for him to share that with your friends, and it sounds like he needs a lesson on Christianity himself.
Your religious views are none of their business. If they're really your friends they'll respect that.
At this point, you need to apologize for the deception, firmly state your beliefs, and let your friends decide if they can forgive the transgression and accept someone with very different beliefs.
It doesn't help that your friend found out the way that he did- like you said, on a forum witch probably has quite a lot of vitriol about Christians floating about on it. Even if you've said nothing offensive yourself, your friend will probably be wondering if your opinions fall in line with the common lol-sky-fairy-mentally-deluded strain of atheist views of Christians expressed mainly on the net.
If they're worth anything as friends they'll be willing to move on and forgive (hell their faith commands them the whole forgiveness thing as a pretty big deal) but cut any deception or question-dodging out. Either they'll move on past the fact that you're atheist or they're pretty crap friends anyway. Just start being honest and hopefully they'll show some maturity in the end.
There is no reason why y'all can't remain friends. My roommate and best friend is a devout Christan, and I'm an atheist, and after some initial tussles, we've both accepted each other, and even feel comfortable enough to talk about it, have conversations with what he's going through with the church, and he asks for my advice on it because he knows I'm not going to bash what he's put so much of himself into
You have some work ahead with your friends, but you have to put yourself first on this.
For me, coming from that kind of background, this whole thing seems rather immature. So your friends are all Christians, and you no longer believe. So what? Why should they care about your personal beliefs, if they don't affect your actions? I suppose that if they are "true" Christians, then they should fear for your soul; but then they should also know that you will only be saved if you truly accept the gospel in your heart, and pressuring you into conforming or ostracizing you would be pointless.
...right?
The thing is that I don't see religion as anything more than an opinion. How was he misleading them? Well, they learn he's not a believer, and not from him.
My next question isn't flamebait or rethorical, it's honest:
SO?
I would try explaining to your friends that your relationship with God is your business and it is something you are trying to reconcile with you experiences. Hell, half the bible is stories about men having doubts about God.
It's kind of odd that you are worried about your parents finding out about this. How is keeping it from them any different? You're just going to eventually have to deal with them finding out that you've been lying to them about this the same way you are now with your friends. I would say take the reins and tell them yourself. Don't give some manipulative former friend the satisfaction of ambushing them with your secrets.
Saying that you have problems with organized religion doesn't sound misleading to me. It sounds like he was avoiding saying "I don't believe in your Jesus", which is understandable when you don't want to insult your religious friends. Feeling guilty about it isn't surprising though, especially when you're surrounded by it.
I would come clean and explain that you were afraid they would abandon you over your beliefs (or nonbeliefs) and that was the reason you lied. If they choose to leave then really it was inevitable and they weren't that great of friends anyway. If they choose to stay then you've got some trust to rebuild.
you must have never been to the bible belt in the United States. This is very common behavior.... so glad I moved back home after my stint there.
For people who tout themselves as the most religious and devout they are the quickest to break the rules... thou shall not judge. And all that other teaching of loving everyone, blah blah. To me they aren't truly invested in their religion no matter how loudly they yell about it or ruffle their peacock feathers saying they are. It is just a social group for these people where everyone is the same as they are, they care nothing of the lessons or teachings of the religion.
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The whole situation is pretty unfair, to be sure. Pixels should not have had to feel the need to hide his beliefs in the first place, but assuming he can forgive his friends for that, the main concern becomes how to secure the best chance of maintaining the friendship.
Like Nibble said, nobody gave two shits about my devout agnosticism and dislike of organized religions. We're a Christian family, but while my grandmother is a big conservative believer, my mom just thinks there might be something up there, probably, and my aunt doesn't believe in God. Everyone's belief is on a different step, and nobody cares about what the other thinks. People rarely bring up religion, but not because it's taboo, just because we don't have anything to say on the subject.
@Nibble, Djiem: I think it's pretty clear that his friends are fundamentalists. I'm Christian too, but according to these guys, I'm going to hell with all the atheists because I chose the wrong church.
I didn't think to mention this in the OP (sorry), but my mother is in very fragile health right now. I don't think this is a good time for, "hey, just so you don't hear any crazy rumors, I think that the most important thing in your life is make-believe. But yeah, hope you get better, because there's no heaven."
Obviously I wouldn't put it like that, but fuck, I might as well.
Are you a Christian? I'm going to say no, based on your response. For true believers, it goes way beyond an "opinion".
Based on the description of the forum, I would imagine for the friend it was like being gay and finding out a long time friend has been posting on a homophobe forum, making gay jokes or something. It would be felt like a pretty big betrayal.
Really all you can do is apologize, tell them why you hid it, and ask them to forgive you. If they don't, it's time to find some new friends.
Well, I understand the situation theorically. It's just a regional thing. I live in Canada. Québec. Near Montréal, a very cosmopolitan place. I don't live in the Bible Belt or near fundies. So, I understand it and yet can't understand it, if that makes sense.
I'd say what you're going through right now is proof that you were right to lie all those years. It's not like you're trying to convert your friends to atheism, you're just being yourself. If your peers can't get on board with that, maybe it's time to join a healthier community.
Well shit, that is different. I would go to your friends first then and tell them what's up. Tell them you're doing some soul searching (not necessarily a lie?) and even though they might want to spread the word you would appreciate it deeply if they didn't react that way due to your mother's condition. I know with some fundamentalists this won't really work but it's better than lying more and digging the hole deeper. There's bound to be a couple of them that will identify with your situation and back off.
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Your religious friends are hurt because you have lied to them about your faith. I can totally and completely understand and even get behind why you did it. If I were in your position, I'd have probably done the exact same thing. Strained family relationships are the worst thing, and worth almost anything to avoid.
Especially with your mother being in poor health.
The very underlying problem is that you believe your Christian friends won't accept you as a non-Christian, which is sad but not surprising, and it seems that you very well might be right.
I don't think you should sacrifice your integrity for this. It's a lost cause. If you lie to them now and make them think once again that you are devout when you're really not, you will be miserable.
It's not worth pretending to believe anymore.
I don't know your friends though, and they could be an absolute fucking blast to hang around with.
I really hope this can be solved without losing a friendship, but don't lie to yourself anymore. If they can't accept you as a non-believer, then that is their loss.
not exactly sturdy foundations
Don't underestimate how much fundamentalist Christians hate atheists. It's not pretty. Some of them can overcome their prejudice, some can't. It's sad.
Don't lie. I mean, you don't have to volunteer stuff, or go around proclaiming how great atheism is or anything, but if someone asks you a question, don't lie.
It's the timing that's unfortunate.. I think your real concern is your mother, so that's what I'd focus on. I'm getting the impression that this wouldn't otherwise be such a huge deal for you. Putting everything else aside, knowing her as you do, what do you think is the best way to approach this sort of thing with her?
I really dislike this analogy. It's more like finding out a friend who said he was gay was really straight, and was on a thread talking about how hot Angelina Jolie was. Of course if someone doesn't like your voluntary association, he's going to be upset and he's going to try to bring you back into the fold - any organized religion works on principles of group shaming and enforcement. That part of this is an attempt to re-convert the OP isn't a bad thing - if your friends thought you were going to hell, you'd hope they'd try to convert you.
But honestly, this thread sometimes makes me think the inquisition never left - you have no obligation to swear to your religious beliefs in public or tell people what you think, especially if you're going to face various degrees of social persecution and pressure for it. However, in the long run, much like sexuality, the more "out' athiests are, the more respect and recognition we're going to achieve in the long run.
You owe it to yourself and other athiests to be open about your non-belief, especially if you are an athiest of the non-pedantic variety, which you seem to be.
This makes me think the friend could see it like the OP was secretly laughing at them or calling them stupid behind their backs. Not saying he was right, but I can understand how he might feel that way.
I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said, "Stop! Don't do it!" "Why shouldn't I?" he said. I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!" He said, "Like what?" I said, "Well, are you religious or atheist?" He said, "Religious." I said, "Me too! Are your Christian or Buddhist?" He said, "Christian." I said, "Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?" He said, "Protestant." I said, Me too! Are your Episcopalian or Baptist? He said, "Baptist!" I said, "Wow! Me too! Are your Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord? He said, Baptist Church of God!" I said, "Me too! Are your Original Baptist Church of God or are you Reformed Baptist Church of God?" He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of God!" I said, "Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915?" He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915!" I said, "Die, heretic scum!" and pushed him off.
They don't seem like very good friends.
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but they're listening to every word I say
Now this part is just me but personally if they got holier than thou with me and refused further contact with me because of my "heathen" beliefs I would tell them to fuck off right back and make some new friends. I know this is of little comfort when we are talking about good friends who you've know for a long time, but I learned the hard way that religion can break any friendship.
Two things I never talk to friends about are religion and politics.
You were dishonest about things which were important to all concerned. It doesn't matter whether Dijem feels religion is an important issue - you and your friends do. If you don't think there's anything wrong with that you're going to continue to have problems in your friendships, because friendship requires a minimum level of honesty and open-ness.
And they seem like idiots if they think an 'intervention' is a sensible reaction to someone's religious beliefs.
I've no idea whether you and them can be friends. Perhaps your atheism is something they can't handle. Perhaps your lying is something they can't handle. Perhaps you just need to talk to them.
You should not keep trying to lie to them. If you do, there's no real friendship there.