Can your accounting department legally adjust your clocked hours?
Zyre
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
You guys may remember me from a month or so back asking about how to ask for a raise. We employees have a new problem now at the same employer.
About a month ago a memo went out that employees were not allowed to "make up" time for being late, meaning if your shift starts at 0700am and you clock in at 0708am (since all payroll is rounded to the nearest 15 minutes) you lose out on 15 minutes of pay, you cannot stay an extra 8min (15min) at the end of your shift to make up for it. Coupled with the fact that we have repeatedly been told that overtime is not permitted at all, so if you are on time and clock out late, that is not permitted either.
Well up until about a month or so ago, they were pretty lax with this, my job sometimes gets really busy right before my shift ends and sometimes I can't clock out right when I supposed to, sometimes I don't get to clock out until 15 minutes, sometimes 30 minutes after my shift is supposed to end. So the accounting department has announced that if for any reason you need to stay late beyond your shift end time, you need a written note from management explaining why you clocked out late to be eligible/considered getting paid for it. What they are doing right now, is if you do not have that note, the accounting department will go into the time logs, and manually edit peoples time clock-out's to when they were supposed to clock out, meaning if I clocked out 30min past my shift, they will edit the clock records and change it so I clocked out at the time I was supposed to clock out at.
My question - is this legal? Do employers have the right to do this? I'm in Washington State if that matters.
About a month ago a memo went out that employees were not allowed to "make up" time for being late, meaning if your shift starts at 0700am and you clock in at 0708am (since all payroll is rounded to the nearest 15 minutes) you lose out on 15 minutes of pay, you cannot stay an extra 8min (15min) at the end of your shift to make up for it. Coupled with the fact that we have repeatedly been told that overtime is not permitted at all, so if you are on time and clock out late, that is not permitted either.
Well up until about a month or so ago, they were pretty lax with this, my job sometimes gets really busy right before my shift ends and sometimes I can't clock out right when I supposed to, sometimes I don't get to clock out until 15 minutes, sometimes 30 minutes after my shift is supposed to end. So the accounting department has announced that if for any reason you need to stay late beyond your shift end time, you need a written note from management explaining why you clocked out late to be eligible/considered getting paid for it. What they are doing right now, is if you do not have that note, the accounting department will go into the time logs, and manually edit peoples time clock-out's to when they were supposed to clock out, meaning if I clocked out 30min past my shift, they will edit the clock records and change it so I clocked out at the time I was supposed to clock out at.
My question - is this legal? Do employers have the right to do this? I'm in Washington State if that matters.
Zyre on
0
Posts
The only thing they can do is write you up for not following procedure but they still have to pay you for every minute.
I think it's going to be really hard to prove this if it's just my word against theirs. Because if I start tracking when I clock in every day and when I clock out, it's just numbers on a paper, if they go in and change it on the computer how am I supposed to prove them wrong? They're are security cameras watching all the clocks though, so there is that.
I'd go to my union if I were you
JustsawthereplypostedwhileIwastypingthisedit: Of course, if you have a union, contact them first.
Just have everyone in the company clock out beetween 5 and 14 minutes late. This will literally drown your accounting department in editing the time logs, EVERY DAY.
I'm pretty sure they'll get fed up very quickly. And since they're acting on an illegal demand to begin with....
Good luck.
Where I work, they round our time in 5 min intervals, but they never round down. So if I clock in 1 min late, I won't get paid for 7:59, but for the whole 8 hour day. I love clocking in 5 mins early and out 1 min late, I usually get close to an hour of "overtime" a week.
"Rounding up" to get out of paying time is also illegal.
I very much doubt any of the employees are exempt. Unless they're stupid, or signed a really bad contract.
Either way there'd be no point to docking the time of a salaried worker so I doubt it very much.
This happens to me every single day and every single day my boss gives me shit because he has to adjust my time card. Theyll even remove 30 minutes paid if i fail to take my government mandated 30 minute unpaid lunch break.
Even a year ago i used to be able to just pretty much hang out for as long as i wanted and keep getting paid, but with the shit economy and all the cost cutting thats going on, theyve really been cracking down on it.
Check out my band, click the banner.
Unless you have a union, you're pretty much up the creek without a paddle. Any action will get you dismissed, and the legal returns for a few weeks of overtime will not outweigh the hassle and financial burden of not receiving a paycheck. Even if the dismissal is illegal (are you at-will?) the costs far outweigh the benefits.
You can always contact your local BBB, but to my understanding this will, also, get you fired pretty quick.
Do as you say fit, but in reality you should be thankful of pulling a paycheck. Don't make waves unless they're actually really taking advantage of you. It sounds from your description that they're paying everyone for their time, but they've put restrictions on extra pay like every other company out there.
My advise is to evaluate if lawyer costs and losing your job outweigh receiving some sort of settlement. Unless they owe you a year's salary, you're pretty much better off just ensuring that you clock-in and out when you're told.
My company has a similar policy right now. My employees are thankful to get their paychecks and we have explained that overtime and extra pay will massively hurt our company if paid out on a regular basis. We hand-write our time-cards, so everyone puts down their hours regardless of the actual number. Hell, I'm at work right now on a holiday because there are things to get done. I won't be receiving any sort of extra pay. Sometimes we all have to just collectively "bite the bullet" and settle for less. The quicker you understand this, the quicker you'll be able to put it off your mind and focus on performing well enough to get that pay raise. Employees who act in the best interest of the company are the ones who, years down the line, out-earn their co-workers.
Not only will they get fined, they'll have to pay everyone their owed time, and anyone who gets fired in the mean times looks mighty suspicious and often times even if there are legitimate reasons, said person can file another claim with the DoL and get a severance pay for wrongful termination.
NY is at at will state and I've had to do this in the past when my employer constantly refused to pay me overtime when I was basically required to work overtime. I can't imagine other states are too different when it comes to dickmuppetry with paystubs, clocking in and out, and other bullshit.
I'm not advocating taking it up the ass, regardless of what it may appear. I advocate considering if it's really worthwhile before making decision that have a high potential to leave the OP without any paycheck.
They're paying the man for the work hours he is contractually obligated to work, and auto-cutting overtime. If normal, contracted hours were being cut I'd be the first to run down to a lawyer and get this sorted-out. I hear a situation where non-contractual overtime has been cut across the board and the OP is concerned about not getting paid for an additional time-and-a-half hour each week. One is a problem, the other is a policy.
They are not mandating working overtime and then not paying it. In fact, they're mandating that you stop working at the end of your shift. Overtime is still possible when approved by management and necessary for business.
This is what is going on.
Or, you know, losing your job.
I know this isn't popular, but the legal means employed by a corporation far outweigh the ability of an employee to match the sheer level of legal experience and pull. Even if you're 100% in the right, a skilled corporation legal man can and will bend you over. Not to mention the fact that there's a potential of emptying your bank account to lodge the complaint while, in turn, no longer receiving paychecks.
Unless you're being other-wise abused as a worker, this sounds like a lot of crying over spilled milk.
I'm also unconvinced that the company has broken any laws. They're stating "Come in on time and leave on time" not "work 70 hours a week at your usual rate of 35."
And Bowen, they are paying everyone. Not a single person in this company, by the OP's information, is being paid less than their contract specifies.
Sounds to me like the OP described a situation of retail where "We can't close until all the customers are taken care of" and then HR docks pay accordingly because there's no overtime. Yes it happens. Yes I've experienced it. Yes it's illegal. No you shouldn't put up with it.
Edit:
It may not be "Work 70 hours for your rate of 35" but there's no difference in "Work for 36 and get paid for 35."
From my point of view as a manager, this isn't illegal. OP: Is there guaranteed overtime in your contract? Because that's the only way it's illegal.
Of course, in general, the whole idea behind this is to cut overtime costs to avoid firing employees. [sarcasm]But of course corporations can't ever be in the right.[/sarcasm]
Sorry for the snark, but I can see this potentially ending very poorly for the OP and would like for this to be considered before making a stink over a few overtime hours. Overtime hours that have been cut across the country.
From the OP's "Raise" thread:
Does this sound like a company that won't fire the OP? Does this sound like a company that can afford to pay 2.5[overtime hours/week] x [# of employees] x $1.5[wage] for very long?
I stick to my guns. OP should be happy he has a job, and if he's not happy he should find this magical company that's still operating like it's 2003.
Plus, in keeping with the post above me, just stop working overtime so much. It makes employers cringe.
double edit: Hell my company has a 'Go the fuck home already' clause because we had one dude who would get in at 4 AM and work until well after 10 PM six days a week. Yes he is a machine, and yes he does good work, but yeah we couldn't afford to basically triple his cheque every week due to him wanting to stay after everyone was supposed to go home for the night. (And non punchcard employees can't even get overtime. Though our base pay is slightly elevated to sort of make up for it.)
It happens, though, and it's apparently not always easy to prove that a firing wasn't for legitimate reasons -- it's entirely possible that some whistleblowers are in fact not model workers. I'm pretty sure I read an article that said most lawsuits alleging retaliation end up being dismissed.
Well, this isn't the one I remember, but it works. From 2005:
http://www.workforce.com/section/00/article/24/17/48.html
If you ever asked your employee to stay 2 minutes late, and not paid them, that's illegal.
If you can't close your store because there's customers, you can't tell people to suck a dick you're not paying them for the overtime because it's not in the contract.
Contracts can't be dumb and, basically, illegal.
I guess I should underly this as, I am not a lawyer you may have been dumb and signed something completely illegal and stuck with a manager that is unsympathetic and is a complete douchbag while technically being petty. He's counting on you not reporting him to the DoL (BBB wtf you're not a consumer) over pennies so he can save costs and be a fucktwat and cheat you out of money. Report him, it's anonymous anyways as long as you don't go LOL I REPORTED YOU, and you get your money if you're in the right, and they get a hefty fine that reinforces the behavior to not be a fucktwat.
On Overtime:
here's a link to a PDF on overtime rules
There is also a link on what types of jobs are not required to pay overtime.
OP needs to check if his job is listed in the overtime exemptions. Btw, same website does state that washington is At Will.
OSHA claims are slightly different.
Yeah, great chances of winning!
If anyone thinks that unorganized labor has any power in this country, I feel pity.
OSHA is a regulatory committee for job safety. Not even close to not paying someone for mandated time. It's like you hitting me with a bat in the bat testing zone and me trying to sue you for my job of being a bat safety tester.
OP: Please consider 1) the financial straights your company is in (can they afford to pay all this overtime without downsizing considering they've cut everything else?) 2) what is actually in your contract, and if you can leave as soon as your shift is up (do they force you to work for free?) and 3) if you really believe that the lawyer you can afford will be better than the lawyer(s) your company has on retainer.
It's not entirely clear to me if the OP is working 40 hours a week, though. I don't remember the previous thread, but he mentions shifts here, which may or may not be indicative of a non-40 hour job.
re: The quote
That article is specifically talking about corporate fraud whistleblowing. I don't know why it's OSHA's job to review such cases, but it's not talking about job safety complaints.
He specifically mentioned OT, but it may not be the classic OT we're all thinking of. It may just be as simple as they needed to work an extra half hour because of customers or stocking or whatever else and were docked accordingly.
As for the "came in 2 minutes late and rounded up" seems largely illegal, they're probably allowed to "round" but only down, and not up (unless it's only by like 1-5 minutes tops, quarter of an hour seems too much). If I could just round up the nearest half hour I could save loads! As for docking past the time, only if it wasn't pretty much required. Cleaning, stocking, finishing the shift because of customers at the last second. The fact that it's a 15 minute time clock that rounds up if you're late and down if you work 10 minutes of OT makes me call the bullshit meter even more.
DoL is the best bet.
Actually, pay is dolled out in 15 minute "blocks." My advise here is Get to work on time, you know, like is mandated in contract.
I also do not believe that this is retail.
That being said, the best thing to do in this situation if you need the job is to do exactly what they tell you: clock in and out exactly on time. In the middle of doing something when you need to clock out? Oh, well. Drop it, and clock out anyway. Don't, like, deliberately create scenarios where you're screwing people over by clocking out; start looking for someone to cover whatever you're doing ten or fifteen minutes before you leave. But if you can't find someone, you need to do exactly what they say.
Yes, what they're doing is entirely illegal and unethical. However, if you need the job, and you don't have a union (which, if they're pulling this shit, you don't), you're better off keeping your head down.
That doesn't mean he should bend over.
He's not talking about time and a half, he's talking about getting paid anything at all for hours he worked.
OP: If you are not getting paid to work past 7, do not work past 7. Say "I'm sorry, I don't get paid past 7 so I'm officially off the clock" and then leave. They told you there is no over time, so... there is not overtime. You're done on the dot as far as they're concerned, end of story, so make it as far as you're concerned too.
i once had a pissy manager on a consulting contract that didn't like the fact that nobody came in at 8am, and most of us sauntered in sometime between 9 and 11.... ignoring the fact that everyone was working till 10 or 11 at night daily (we were all salaried).
he held a meeting, to remind us that our working hours started at 8... for the next week, we all came in at 8, and left at 5 PM on the dot (as those were the "standard hours" for our company).... he got replaced by our VP shortly, since our assignment really required 12 hour days to complete