This whole "debate" comes down to a very simple point: Evander either doesn't comprehend or isn't willing to accept what "new" actually means insofar as optical media/software is concerned.
The world, however, doesn't care what Evander is willing to comprehend or accept. "New," as it relates to this particular product type, is what it is regardless of what Evander thinks.
I've seen this same circular drivel here for the last three or more years and Evander has not changed his wholly incorrect stance on "new," so really, don't bother, folks.
No, drez, what it comes down to is that you fail to recognize that one word can have different meanings in different contexts, and even different stores.
When something has been used it ceases to be new. You can not open a product, take it home, and use it for several days and then bring it back and it still be new.
This isn't an argument about semantics or acceptable definitions.
If a GameStop employee "rents" a new game, takes it home, opens it, uses it for four days, and brings it back in pristine condition, you think it's still new, will put it back in stock, and sell it used.
If a consumer "buys" a new game, take sit home, opens it, uses it for four days, and brings it back in pristine condition, you don't think it's new, will buy it back for a used price and then sell it as used.
The only difference in this scenario is the person involved.
EDIT
Even more so, GameStop does not allow this practice to carry over to PC games. Why? Because PC developers don't think a PC game is still new after you deal with the DRM, regardless of whether or not the GameStop employee returned the game, regardless of how well the game was handled, it was opened and used.
Damaged goods are not new, we've established this, but gutted games aren't damaged goods. Look, there are many definitions for the word "new." GameStop uses one acceptable definition, you use another. It is not new by your personal standards, but they are considered new by at least one definition of the word itself and they are obviously considered new by GameStops standards. You don't agree, that's fine, that's great, by your definition it is not a new item. But to GameStop and many of their customers those games are still new.
P.S. Should I quote Evander's post where he states that defective, broken product can also be considered "new"?
They wouldn't be sold as new, but technically it is. We are talking in the context of items being sold at retail though. (If it's a cracked disc, torn book, etc.)
Open up a Merriam-Webster Dictionary and look up new. I'm sure you'll find that the term isn't as strict as you think it is.
Damaged goods are not new, we've established this, but gutted games aren't damaged goods. Look, there are many definitions for the word "new." GameStop uses one acceptable definition, you use another. It is not new by your personal standards, but they are considered new by at least one definition of the word itself and they are obviously considered new by GameStops standards. You don't agree, that's fine, that's great, by your definition it is not a new item. But to GameStop and many of their customers those games are still new.
P.S. Should I quote Evander's post where he states that defective, broken product can also be considered "new"?
They wouldn't be sold as new, but technically it is. We are talking in the context of items being sold at retail though. (If it's a cracked disc, torn book, etc.)
Open up a Merriam-Webster Dictionary and look up new. I'm sure you'll find that the term isn't as strict as you think it is.
Yeah but the Merriam-Webster Dictionary definition of "new" is irrelevant, in its totality. As Evander himself said, the context is relevant here. Which was an odd admission from him, considering he is trying to use every other possible context and definition of "new" apart from the only relevant one.
Again, your arguments are meritless. The only context that matters for this debate is optical media. Gamestop is using one definition for "new" and the rest of the retail market uses another.
Damaged goods are not new, we've established this, but gutted games aren't damaged goods. Look, there are many definitions for the word "new." GameStop uses one acceptable definition, you use another. It is not new by your personal standards, but they are considered new by at least one definition of the word itself and they are obviously considered new by GameStops standards. You don't agree, that's fine, that's great, by your definition it is not a new item. But to GameStop and many of their customers those games are still new.
P.S. Should I quote Evander's post where he states that defective, broken product can also be considered "new"?
They wouldn't be sold as new, but technically it is. We are talking in the context of items being sold at retail though. (If it's a cracked disc, torn book, etc.)
Open up a Merriam-Webster Dictionary and look up new. I'm sure you'll find that the term isn't as strict as you think it is.
You and I are on the same page, but for the sake of the semantic pedants out there, I just wanted to be clear.
Defective goods may be unknowingly sold as new at times, and they do exist as status: new in the inventory.
But they are not purposefully put out on the shelf to be sold as new, like you have been saying.
Worst case scenario, there is a 10% off shopworn discount in the system.
Whatever standard for new other industries use is irrelevant. Whether the disk is actually damaged, that doesn't matter at all. The point is, Gamestop has a clearly defined policy: if you (the customer) open the box, it's used. They can't just create a double standard by which its employees can actually take the game, play it, put it back, and sell it as new. It just can't work that way.
Yeah but the Merriam-Webster Dictionary definition of "new" is irrelevant, in its totality. As Evander himself said, the context is relevant here. Which was an odd admission from him, considering he is trying to use every other possible context and definition of "new" apart from the only relevant one.
Again, your arguments are meritless. The only context that matters for this debate is optical media. Gamestop is using one definition for "new" and the rest of the retail market uses another.
He also refuses to admit that JC Penny doesn't allow their employees to take clothes for use for a week and return them for sale as new.
Damaged goods are not new, we've established this, but gutted games aren't damaged goods. Look, there are many definitions for the word "new." GameStop uses one acceptable definition, you use another. It is not new by your personal standards, but they are considered new by at least one definition of the word itself and they are obviously considered new by GameStops standards. You don't agree, that's fine, that's great, by your definition it is not a new item. But to GameStop and many of their customers those games are still new.
What Gamestop thinks "new" means is irrelevant. The only definition of "new" that is going to matter is that of the judge who gets the case when someone finally sues Gamestop over this bullshit. Until then, the whole thing is in a sort of Schrodinger's Cat like status where the legality or illegality of the practice is unclear.
HamHamJ on
While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
Whatever standard for new other industries use is irrelevant. Whether the disk is actually damaged, that doesn't matter at all. The point is, Gamestop has a clearly defined policy: if you (the customer) open the box, it's used. They can't just create a double standard by which its employees can actually take the game, play it, put it back, and sell it as new. It just can't work that way.
Why can't it?
If they have a clearly defined policy up front, they can do whatever, as long as you are informed of it. If you don't like it, don't shop there.
I have also seen cases fo an opened game being returned as new, when there is a good reason for it. Like a mother who bought a 360 game for her son's PS3, and the kids ripped it open in excitement before realizing that it was the wrong version. It is not technically within the bounds of the policy, but it definitely happens.
Damaged goods are not new, we've established this, but gutted games aren't damaged goods. Look, there are many definitions for the word "new." GameStop uses one acceptable definition, you use another. It is not new by your personal standards, but they are considered new by at least one definition of the word itself and they are obviously considered new by GameStops standards. You don't agree, that's fine, that's great, by your definition it is not a new item. But to GameStop and many of their customers those games are still new.
P.S. Should I quote Evander's post where he states that defective, broken product can also be considered "new"?
They wouldn't be sold as new, but technically it is. We are talking in the context of items being sold at retail though. (If it's a cracked disc, torn book, etc.)
Open up a Merriam-Webster Dictionary and look up new. I'm sure you'll find that the term isn't as strict as you think it is.
You and I are on the same page, but for the sake of the semantic pedants out there, I just wanted to be clear.
Defective goods may be unknowingly sold as new at times, and they do exist as status: new in the inventory.
But they are not purposefully put out on the shelf to be sold as new, like you have been saying.
Worst case scenario, there is a 10% off shopworn discount in the system.
Yeah, I was more responding to the torn book analogy and the crack disc example. If a game is gutted and the disc gets cracked then the Game Advisor (or whoever) isn't going to be sold as new. Unless you have GAs with REALLY bad eyesight.
Anyway, I'm right, your right, Drez is right, Sheep is right, we're all right. How about we all go out of pizza and beer instead?
If they have a clearly defined policy up front, they can do whatever, as long as you are informed of it. If you don't like it, don't shop there.
The policy isn't clear.
This thread is full of people saying one thing about one particular store, with others correcting them, and then you brushing off complaints as, "Well that's not sanctioned by Corporate so it's just a local problem".
That's not clear, understandable, policy. Especially if the stores themselves are not following it.
Secondly, it's obviously an issue if the FTC is stepping in and saying that it's false advertisement and illegal.
Secondly, it's obviously an issue if the FTC is stepping in and saying that it's false advertisement and illegal.
They're not stepping in, are they? I haven't read the whole thread but the impression I got was that Kotaku was like "so hypothetically if some store sold used games as new would that be bad" and the FTC was like "yes."
If they have a clearly defined policy up front, they can do whatever, as long as you are informed of it. If you don't like it, don't shop there.
The policy isn't clear.
This thread is full of people saying one thing about one particular store, with others correcting them, and then you brushing off complaints as, "Well that's not sanctioned by Corporate so it's just a local problem".
That's not clear, understandable, policy. Especially if the stores themselves are not following it.
Secondly, it's obviously an issue if the FTC is stepping in and saying that it's false advertisement and illegal.
No one has been disputing the part of the policy that I was discussing./ EVeryone in here knows that Gamestop sells opened games, but will not take back a game as new that you have opened. Some folks don't LIKE it, but no one has said that they were UNAWARE fo it.
Where does anything say that the FTC is stepping in? Kotaku reported that they filed something with the FTC, and that teh FTC refused to comment on it.
edit:
Kotaku contacted the FTC earlier today to determine if the practice, which sells games already played by employees at the new price, not the used price—used titles are typically priced about $5 cheaper than brand new versions—would be considered deceptive advertising or marketing. The FTC's Bureau of Consumer Protection is mandated to protect consumers against unfair or deceptive acts or practices in commerce. Violations of FTC restrictions are a violation of federal law, according to the commission.
"The Federal Trade Commission protects consumers from unfair or deceptive advertising and marketing practices, and we encourage any consumer with a complaint about a company's business practices to contact us," said FTC public affairs specialist Betsy Lordan.
Lordan said she was unable to confirm or deny the existence of any investigation that the commission is conducting. As a rule the FTC does not comment on the conduct of a particular business.
If they have a clearly defined policy up front, they can do whatever, as long as you are informed of it. If you don't like it, don't shop there.
The policy isn't clear.
This thread is full of people saying one thing about one particular store, with others correcting them, and then you brushing off complaints as, "Well that's not sanctioned by Corporate so it's just a local problem".
That's not clear, understandable, policy. Especially if the stores themselves are not following it.
Secondly, it's obviously an issue if the FTC is stepping in and saying that it's false advertisement and illegal.
No one has been disputing the part of the policy that I was discussing./ EVeryone in here knows that Gamestop sells opened games, but will not take back a game as new that you have opened. Some folks don't LIKE it, but no one has said that they were UNAWARE fo it.
The problem isn't you and me, Evander, nor anyone else in this thread.
It's the other 90-99% of consumers that are being actively lied to and do NOT know they are being lied to.
Saying "well don't buy gutted games if you don't like it" means nothing when applied to the majority of consumers. Go ahead, walk up to any random sampling of customers and mention the term "gutted games" or any variant. You'll either get a blank stare or a "what?" in reply.
Personally, I wouldn't be opposed to discounting "rented" games.
If they did the same for gutted games, I wouldn't mind it so much.
Pre-Gamestop EB used to give a 5% discount on the floor model game. Also had the 14 day return policy and other consumer friendly practices. They also did a hell of a lot more Trade 3 old games get x game for free deals.
GS however was always stingy. They also used to mark up N64 games by $5 for no particular reason. They were much tougher at this business and eventually won out by buying up most of the rest of the specialty games retailers.
They are very, very good at making money. They are very, very bad at customer service. They seem to care less about their employee's than any other retail job I've ever seen, mainly because college age people want to work there.
I only get new, sealed games from them. If you preorder and pick it up that day it will be sealed. I also get used games there whenever the buy x get 1 free sales show up. I don't mind used. I do however mind pre played games sold as new, and will only do it when it is my absolute last resort. I think the last time that happend was Etrain Odyssey.
I don't bother complaining any more. It's not worth it.
Drez, it must be lovely to live in a world where everyone else is a moron.
Seriously, you think you are the smartest person in the world? That you have figured out these things, but no one else can?
Not everyone else is a moron.
But a lot of people are uninformed, yes. And Gamestop doesn't promote the information. I know because I fucking worked there, probably longer than you did.
Actually gamestop is only supposed to "rent" out used games to their employees. They can only rent an individual title once, and only for 3 days max. This is stated in their handbook. If some manager is loaning out new copies of games, then that's on them, and their asses should be fired.
edit: and they're only supposed to allow rental when the store has more than 2 copies of said game.
Yeah, but the thing is, they can take it home and play it, whereas if I were to BUY the game, and then trade it in RIGHT THERE, it would diminish in value simply by my purchasing it. That is where the bullshit comes in.
Actually, no, that wouldn't happen, because gamestop gives you 7 days to try out any used game, and bring it back free of charge.
You can bring a used game back 6 days later, and say, "I beat it" and they give you back your monies.
edit: I'm getting my information from my wife's handbook, and she started working there last November.
He's referring to new, not used. You can't return a new game unless its defective and even then you can only exchange it for the same title on the same system unless you want to trade it in for 40% of what you payed for it.
Also not true. Though, I'll admit a lot of gamestops don't practice this in an appropriate way. The way I've seen her Gamestop do it, is they simply put a little clear sticker over the side of a "new" copy. They inform the customer that if that seal is tampered with in any way, they can't bring it back as new.
However, note that my wife works at what is basically the district store. As in, her Store manager is responsible for other stores in Albuquerque as well. Because of this, they follow the rules from corporate very closely.
Now, someone mentioned Company Policy and Store Policy. There should be no Store Policy, those are the douchebag managers that need to be fired.
edit: I'm just trying to make it clear that the company isn't entirely evil, its probably that nerd manager who's trying to abuse the system that screwing you guys over.
Wait... I know this is from waaaay back in the thread, but does your wife work at the store on Montgomery? Next to the Blockbuster? If so, my buddy and I just bought Dark Athena from her yesteday.
Posts
I meant to type B&N. Woops!
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
When something has been used it ceases to be new. You can not open a product, take it home, and use it for several days and then bring it back and it still be new.
This isn't an argument about semantics or acceptable definitions.
If a GameStop employee "rents" a new game, takes it home, opens it, uses it for four days, and brings it back in pristine condition, you think it's still new, will put it back in stock, and sell it used.
If a consumer "buys" a new game, take sit home, opens it, uses it for four days, and brings it back in pristine condition, you don't think it's new, will buy it back for a used price and then sell it as used.
The only difference in this scenario is the person involved.
EDIT
Even more so, GameStop does not allow this practice to carry over to PC games. Why? Because PC developers don't think a PC game is still new after you deal with the DRM, regardless of whether or not the GameStop employee returned the game, regardless of how well the game was handled, it was opened and used.
They wouldn't be sold as new, but technically it is. We are talking in the context of items being sold at retail though. (If it's a cracked disc, torn book, etc.)
Open up a Merriam-Webster Dictionary and look up new. I'm sure you'll find that the term isn't as strict as you think it is.
In fact I'm about to take my own advice.
Sorry, but it doesn't. You might think it does, but you are wrong.
Yeah but the Merriam-Webster Dictionary definition of "new" is irrelevant, in its totality. As Evander himself said, the context is relevant here. Which was an odd admission from him, considering he is trying to use every other possible context and definition of "new" apart from the only relevant one.
Again, your arguments are meritless. The only context that matters for this debate is optical media. Gamestop is using one definition for "new" and the rest of the retail market uses another.
No, Evander, I'm sorry, but I'm not. You have always been and will always be wrong.
You and I are on the same page, but for the sake of the semantic pedants out there, I just wanted to be clear.
Defective goods may be unknowingly sold as new at times, and they do exist as status: new in the inventory.
But they are not purposefully put out on the shelf to be sold as new, like you have been saying.
Worst case scenario, there is a 10% off shopworn discount in the system.
The entire industry and a margin of it's demographic disagree with you and your hulking, monolithic, abusive, employer.
And, also, you're just flat out wrong.
You're contradicting yourself now (see: my sig)
:P
C'mon Drez, be the bigger man. Just let it go.
Dear Christ, you still have that sig.
He also refuses to admit that JC Penny doesn't allow their employees to take clothes for use for a week and return them for sale as new.
What Gamestop thinks "new" means is irrelevant. The only definition of "new" that is going to matter is that of the judge who gets the case when someone finally sues Gamestop over this bullshit. Until then, the whole thing is in a sort of Schrodinger's Cat like status where the legality or illegality of the practice is unclear.
I agree with Drez here.
When the standard of new in the context of optical media is sealed, then an open played copy from GameStop is not new.
You're just selling a lie.
Why can't it?
If they have a clearly defined policy up front, they can do whatever, as long as you are informed of it. If you don't like it, don't shop there.
I have also seen cases fo an opened game being returned as new, when there is a good reason for it. Like a mother who bought a 360 game for her son's PS3, and the kids ripped it open in excitement before realizing that it was the wrong version. It is not technically within the bounds of the policy, but it definitely happens.
Yeah, I was more responding to the torn book analogy and the crack disc example. If a game is gutted and the disc gets cracked then the Game Advisor (or whoever) isn't going to be sold as new. Unless you have GAs with REALLY bad eyesight.
Anyway, I'm right, your right, Drez is right, Sheep is right, we're all right. How about we all go out of pizza and beer instead?
The policy isn't clear.
This thread is full of people saying one thing about one particular store, with others correcting them, and then you brushing off complaints as, "Well that's not sanctioned by Corporate so it's just a local problem".
That's not clear, understandable, policy. Especially if the stores themselves are not following it.
Secondly, it's obviously an issue if the FTC is stepping in and saying that it's false advertisement and illegal.
I'd hate you if I didn't love you.
No one has been disputing the part of the policy that I was discussing./ EVeryone in here knows that Gamestop sells opened games, but will not take back a game as new that you have opened. Some folks don't LIKE it, but no one has said that they were UNAWARE fo it.
Where does anything say that the FTC is stepping in? Kotaku reported that they filed something with the FTC, and that teh FTC refused to comment on it.
edit:
however this is all very inconsequential just shut up and play the damn game
If they did the same for gutted games, I wouldn't mind it so much.
The problem isn't you and me, Evander, nor anyone else in this thread.
It's the other 90-99% of consumers that are being actively lied to and do NOT know they are being lied to.
Saying "well don't buy gutted games if you don't like it" means nothing when applied to the majority of consumers. Go ahead, walk up to any random sampling of customers and mention the term "gutted games" or any variant. You'll either get a blank stare or a "what?" in reply.
Seriously, you think you are the smartest person in the world? That you have figured out these things, but no one else can?
Pre-Gamestop EB used to give a 5% discount on the floor model game. Also had the 14 day return policy and other consumer friendly practices. They also did a hell of a lot more Trade 3 old games get x game for free deals.
GS however was always stingy. They also used to mark up N64 games by $5 for no particular reason. They were much tougher at this business and eventually won out by buying up most of the rest of the specialty games retailers.
They are very, very good at making money. They are very, very bad at customer service. They seem to care less about their employee's than any other retail job I've ever seen, mainly because college age people want to work there.
I only get new, sealed games from them. If you preorder and pick it up that day it will be sealed. I also get used games there whenever the buy x get 1 free sales show up. I don't mind used. I do however mind pre played games sold as new, and will only do it when it is my absolute last resort. I think the last time that happend was Etrain Odyssey.
I don't bother complaining any more. It's not worth it.
Not everyone else is a moron.
But a lot of people are uninformed, yes. And Gamestop doesn't promote the information. I know because I fucking worked there, probably longer than you did.
Wait... I know this is from waaaay back in the thread, but does your wife work at the store on Montgomery? Next to the Blockbuster? If so, my buddy and I just bought Dark Athena from her yesteday.