The new forums will be named Coin Return (based on the most recent vote)! You can check on the status and timeline of the transition to the new forums here.
The Guiding Principles and New Rules document is now in effect.

Cuba: What Now?

ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
edited December 2006 in Debate and/or Discourse
So, Fidel Castro is pretty clearly dying. He couldn't even get out of bed for his 80th birthday party. For the past several months, we have had a golden opportunity to open up trade & aid to Cuba, to expand our influence to them, to encourage freedom and democracy in a way that it has never been encouraged there before, and what have we done with it? Squandered it. We're too busy lying about Iraq and worrying about 2008 to be willing to piss off a few thousand fanatical zealots in Florida, who apparently control the entirety of our foreign policy, now. From the sounds of it, Castro won't be alive much longer, and what's going to happen when he dies? No one knows. It's almost certainly not going to be freedom & democracy, though. Chaos? Maybe. A smooth transition to another dictator? Maybe. Democracy? Hell no. Because we're too retarded to just say "hey, y'know, that whole Cold War thing is in the past, and we were kind of dicks to you and deserved what you did, anyhow, so why don't we make up?"

Thanatos on

Posts

  • FunkyWaltDoggFunkyWaltDogg Columbia, SCRegistered User regular
    edited December 2006
    Honestly, it seems to me that our current Cuba policy is a habit more than anything else now. There's no fundamental reason why we couldn't get along just fine, and Castro's death would provide a perfect opportunity to make a change.

    FunkyWaltDogg on
  • The Green Eyed MonsterThe Green Eyed Monster i blame hip hop Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    Honestly, it seems to me that our current Cuba policy is a habit more than anything else now. There's no fundamental reason why we couldn't get along just fine, and Castro's death would provide a perfect opportunity to make a change.
    I suspect that everyone besides Miami, Florida Republicans feel this way.

    The Green Eyed Monster on
  • MulysaSemproniusMulysaSempronius but also susie nyRegistered User regular
    edited December 2006
    Isn't his brother pretty much set to take over now? I don't see too much happening with Castro's death, at least initially.
    I'm not sure Republicans want a change, and Democrats are probably weary to use any political capital on this right away.

    MulysaSempronius on
    If that's all there is my friends, then let's keep dancing
  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    I wouldn't bet on Fidel dieing soon. But for the sake of discussion, let's assume he does.

    Raoul won't keep power for long. Hell, the only thing keeping him in power right now is his brother. People see him as a temporary substitute while Fidel is down, not a permanent leader. So, then what?

    Well, aside from a handful of older members, most of the members of the Cuban government are young people, people who were born after the revolution. People for whom a Castro-led communist Cuba is the only way it's ever been. Given this setup, I think a smooth transition to another leader is a likely possibility.

    On the other hand, a lot of the government is heavy and strangely set up, and basically just held up by Fidel's strenght of will and personality. That part will fall apart without him. On that front, I expect massive (though peaceful) government reforms, possibly gradually as the new generation of Cuban leaders takes over.

    Richy on
    sig.gif
  • Eliot DuboisEliot Dubois Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    celery77 wrote:
    Honestly, it seems to me that our current Cuba policy is a habit more than anything else now. There's no fundamental reason why we couldn't get along just fine, and Castro's death would provide a perfect opportunity to make a change.
    I suspect that everyone besides Miami, Florida Republicans feel this way.

    I suspect that they are the only ones who really care, besides North Dakota bean growers and cigar lovers.

    Eliot Dubois on
    laliban.jpg
  • bone daddybone daddy Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited December 2006
    celery77 wrote:
    Honestly, it seems to me that our current Cuba policy is a habit more than anything else now. There's no fundamental reason why we couldn't get along just fine, and Castro's death would provide a perfect opportunity to make a change.
    I suspect that everyone besides Miami, Florida Republicans feel this way.
    I dunno. Most of those dudes seem to hate Castro specifically. If he were to kick it, there shouldn't be a whole lot of live "Fuck Cuba" culture left over unless we decide to back Castro II as successor. It'd be enough to make things awkward, but not enough to continue fueling the movement.

    bone daddy on
    Rogue helicopter?
    Ecoterrorism is actually the single largest terrorist threat at the moment. They don't usually kill people, but they blow up or set on fire very expensive things.
  • Andrew_JayAndrew_Jay Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    I'm thinking that the transition to his brother Raoul being the permanent president might be pretty smooth - Fidel had at least that much foresight to put him in power well before he actually kicked it.

    The thing is, it's hard to guage what kind of opposition exists on the island - and if there is any that could cause trouble for a transition from Fidel to Raoul, I don't see why they they would be held back by a nearly-dead Fidel and would be waiting until it's official.

    Andrew_Jay on
  • AldoAldo Hippo Hooray Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    How old is Raoul anyway?

    Aldo on
  • GoslingGosling Looking Up Soccer In Mongolia Right Now, Probably Watertown, WIRegistered User regular
    edited December 2006
    My scenario plays out like so:

    *Fidel dies. Nothing happens until that day, as until then, the mere fact that he's still there and might, against all odds, recover, would be enough to deter anyone from trying anything.
    *Once he dies, there will be some pockets of resistance. There won't be enough to deter Raoul from taking office, but enough to where he'll have to deal with that from day one forward.
    *Raoul will be stuck in a rock/hard place situation: He could easily use the structure Fidel set up to quell the resistance, but the more he puts down, the more will pop up to replace it as people get angrier and angrier. Kind of like the Iraq insurgency.
    *Meanwhile, the United States will sit back and watch until the day it becomes clear that Raoul is toast. At that point, we'll shoehorn ourselves in and support the insurgent leader that agrees with us most. We'll off the rest so that that leader has no opposition when Raoul is ousted. (Result: We take credit, but recieve none, for something that was going to happen on its own anyway, and wind up pissing off everyone who prefers Raoul to the insurgent.)
    *The question is what will happen first: Raoul dying naturally, or Raoul getting offed by the insurgents.

    Gosling on
    I have a new soccer blog The Minnow Tank. Reading it psychically kicks Sepp Blatter in the bean bag.
  • Andrew_JayAndrew_Jay Registered User regular
    edited May 2021
    -

    Andrew_Jay on
  • InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    As a cuban all I can really say about Castro getting old and dying is:

    Please do, hurry up and die.

    I'm not really sure what will happen after he dies. I only really hope that cuba will change into a different country so I can actually visit the land in which my father was born.

    Inquisitor on
  • GoslingGosling Looking Up Soccer In Mongolia Right Now, Probably Watertown, WIRegistered User regular
    edited December 2006
    Andrew_Jay wrote:
    I seriously doubt we'll see anything on the scale of actual insurgents in Cuba.

    A disruption I can picture would be high-ranking party or military officials trying to asert themselves in the vaccum left by Fidel. I think that was largely the rationale behind making Raoul (who isn't that much younger than his brother) the "temporary" president in advance of Fidel's death - give him time to settle into the job and take the reigns.

    Anyway, there is the question of what the outside world does. Ideally, the U.S. uses Fidel's death to tell the Cuban government that this is their chance, now that they're free of Fidel, to hold actual elections.

    Interesting that several months ago Bush said that the Miami Cubans should play no role in whatever government emerges. I largely agree.
    Be that as it may, they probably will. Those are going to be your insurgents. The conventional train of thought, however spoken or unspoken, is clearly "We got driven out of our country by Fidel, and we want it back." Fidel dying is their golden opportunity to get Cuba back, and I see a lot of Miami expats taking that opportunity.

    Gosling on
    I have a new soccer blog The Minnow Tank. Reading it psychically kicks Sepp Blatter in the bean bag.
  • AldoAldo Hippo Hooray Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    Andrew_Jay wrote:
    (who isn't that much younger than his brother)
    Thank you.

    What I'm getting at is: Even if Raoul can keep things together for a while, he is too old to rule a country, Cuba needs a leader at least 30 years younger. In my humble opinion, turning to Raoul is short-term-politics, we need to look at the future and think of who could really rule Cuba.

    Aldo on
  • fjafjanfjafjan Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    Yes, hurry up and die so that we can spread some more extreme poverty and crappy health care!

    seriously, i'll bet 50$ that the average Cuban will have it alot worse if they decide to be like all other thirld world countries. It's a bit sad, if only Canada or something could take over and not friggin america.

    fjafjan on
    Yepp, THE Fjafjan (who's THE fjafjan?)
    - "Proving once again the deadliest animal of all ... is the Zoo Keeper" - Philip J Fry
  • Chaos TheoryChaos Theory Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    fjafjan wrote:
    Yes, hurry up and die so that we can spread some more extreme poverty and crappy health care!

    seriously, i'll bet 50$ that the average Cuban will have it alot worse if they decide to be like all other thirld world countries. It's a bit sad, if only Canada or something could take over and not friggin america.

    I can't help but agree with this. It's a dictatorship, yes, but things aren't that bad there. The best Cuba could hope for is democratic reform under young, fresh leadership and perhaps some economic decentralization. If capitalism barges in, they'll end up like post-Soviet Russia has: corrupt, volatile, and poor. (Well, moreso).

    Oh, and it'd help if we swallowed our jingoism and traded with them.

    Chaos Theory on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    Oh, and it'd help if we swallowed our jingoism and traded with them.

    We can't just up and trade with them CT2, they are communists oppressors who violate the human rights of their people.


    Edit: Oh, sorry, I thought we were talking about China.

    Edit 2: Sorry again, I guess it turns out we trade with them quite a lot.

    ArbitraryDescriptor on
  • Chaos TheoryChaos Theory Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    Our level of trade with leftist autocracies is directly proportional to the amount of ocean between us and them. :P

    Chaos Theory on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited December 2006
    Most likely, when Castro dies, we'll invade (most likely economically) and turn Cuba in to a giant sweat shop or another tourist serf-hole like Puerto Rico.

    Incenjucar on
  • 3lwap03lwap0 Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    No doubt, Fidel Castro is on his last legs.

    In so far as my research shows, Fidel will likely be succeded by his brother Raul - but his brother is 75, and any reign he might have aruably be a short one. Havanna wisdom dictates that their should be a Plan B.

    Enter the other power players (See Also: Plan B)

    Pérez Roque - forty-one-year-old Foreign Minister

    Ricardo Alarcón - National party president who is sixty-nine.

    Carlos Lage - the country’s economics czar, who is fifty-four.

    In so far as their dispositions go, Roque is considered a hard-ass in the extreme. His nickname is "Fax" because he only regurgitates what Fidel says with idealistic zeal. Alarcón is considred a moderate, and the most likeable by Americans. Lage is a moderate as well, but more out of pragmatism than any real sense of political ideology. He's also responsible for most of the 90's economics reform, since economics was never Fidel's strong suit.

    Lucky for many, Roque is not likely to be in power much longer. Any power he has was based on what Fidel gave him, and nothing more. When Fidel dies he's going to be scrambling. Likely it's going to come down between Raul, Alarcón, and Lage in a power struggle. Even with Raul being Fidel's brother, he's still not el Comandante. At best, he'll still have to share power with the players in Plan B. At worst, he's a puppet leader, and either Plan B, or a player from that team runs the show.

    Foreign policy shift? - Either way, the odds of the hardline anti-U.S. rhetoric from Cuba dying down is almost a given. Our current administration will take a hard line stance with Cuba, hell we've even got them on the state sponsored terrorism list (for what appears to be only purely political reasons). It will still take a few years to get any matter of reform out of the country, or at least to democratic elections. If Raul holds onto power, certainly until he dies - then who knows?

    3lwap0 on
  • fjafjanfjafjan Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    Pretty much what it was before eh?

    EDIT: Maybe now it will become a truly classless society? :P

    fjafjan on
    Yepp, THE Fjafjan (who's THE fjafjan?)
    - "Proving once again the deadliest animal of all ... is the Zoo Keeper" - Philip J Fry
  • dlinfinitidlinfiniti Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    time to wake the CIA up and fire up the espionage machine again

    dlinfiniti on
    AAAAA!!! PLAAAYGUUU!!!!
  • 3lwap03lwap0 Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    fjafjan wrote:
    Pretty much what it was before eh?


    Until Fidel dies, and the brawling begins, yeah. I think from a favorable U.S. foreign policy position, we'd prefer Lage, or Alarcón. Fidel is more than the dictator of Cuba, he's the physical embodiment of Fidel's Battle of Ideas. Even when Raul steps up to fill in his shoes, it won't be the same.

    Personally, I think it'll be a good show. Maybe nothing as dramatic as assassination, but lots of scandal, or just out and out brawling. The only thing I can promise is that when Fidel kicks it, Miami is going to be the place to be for the party.

    3lwap0 on
  • KusuguttaiKusuguttai __BANNED USERS regular
    edited December 2006
    Cuban Missile Crisis 2: The Crisising

    Kusuguttai on
  • Low KeyLow Key Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    I thought there's been a concern since the 90s about the negative results of lifting the embargo for Cuba ie. it would lead to the kind of Soy Cubesque cesspit that the caused the revolution in the first place. Lifting the embargo when the country is politically destabilised sounds the like worst possible idea.

    Low Key on
  • mccmcc glitch Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited December 2006
    What Now?
    The exact same thing as before

    mcc on
  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    mcc wrote:
    What Now?
    The exact same thing as before
    Heh, very possibly.

    Thanatos on
Sign In or Register to comment.