but isn't "tarpitting" a strategy in some sense? can you really complain?
Actually, this is another rare instance where I side with Goomba. "tarpitting" is exploiting the terrible pathing AI of retreating units (who do not know how to get unstuck or move around an enemy) and the fact that retreating units take 130% damage from melee.
Since your units can't run out of a melee tarpit, you're forced to watch your retreating units die. It basically means that melee armies can retreat from ranged armies, but not the other way around, and it's pretty silly. It unbalances the game way in favor of melee armies.
At the same time, I do like the idea of units being punished for making poor decisions and don't want the retreat to turn into a all general 'try again' button. It needs to break suppression and I don't mind the speed increase. Maybe just make ranged and melee damage do 1.0x damage?
Melee should do less. I don't care if you want range to do more or whatever, but the pathing in the game means melee is going to get more hits and melee does more damage anyway. Retreating should make you take less from melee for that reason and probably that reason alone. I don't care if it "makes sense", it doesn't make sense for a person to stand around while piddly units do tons of damage. Or that a floating tank gets stuck on rippers, but that's sort of a different issue.
Man I wish this game was exactly as I, the greatest DOW2 strategist to ever exist, pictured it in my mind. Relic should listen to me and only me because I know EXACTLY how to fix the game.
Man I wish this game was exactly as I, the greatest DOW2 strategist to ever exist, pictured it in my mind. Relic should listen to me and only me because I know EXACTLY how to fix the game.
I think only Goomba thinks that melee doing 130% to retreating units is stupid and needs to be looked out. Mom.
It's not dumb. Squad of Boyz runs at guardians, lose a few boyz along the way. They finally enter close combat, where the Guardians retreat and suffer few losses. Take out the extra damage, lets see how fair that is noooowww.
Crumbly unless you run over a grenade, the chance of a squad of guardians killing a slugga boy before they get into melee is pretty much zero.
The chance of them killing a few, which you presumably mean to be two or three which is like half the squad is absolutley zero. Even (basic) tacs cant do that.
I really don't understand the Mekboy mine bitching. Even if he throws them at his feet into a melee blob, that seems perfectly acceptable to me. It's not like he has crazy good offensive capabilities anyway. If the mines weren't so popular you'd all be bitching about the force field overload.
Also tar pitting units is perfectly acceptable, it does make the game more melee heavy, but if they would just give the banshees a boost, I don't think anybody would care, as each race would have a decent counter to it.
I really don't understand the Mekboy mine bitching. Even if he throws them at his feet into a melee blob, that seems perfectly acceptable to me. It's not like he has crazy good offensive capabilities anyway. If the mines weren't so popular you'd all be bitching about the force field overload.
I know, because all other armies get powerful instantly detonating grenades that suppress every unit they hit.
Also tar pitting units is perfectly acceptable, it does make the game more melee heavy, but if they would just give the banshees a boost, I don't think anybody would care, as each race would have a decent counter to it.
The way things work right now, melee has an incredible advantage over ranged, especially since melee units can neuter the damage output of ranged units once they're actually in melee. The 130% damage boost is ridiculous. Ranged units and, fuck, even melee units, not being able to ever leave melee is just absurd, and that's how the game works.
And you can't just say "well retreat sooner, idiot" because then you'd never be able to do anything because you'd be constantly fucking retreating and then someone would be waiting in your retreat path anyway.
Edit: And Akira, Canis... Woggle? That game where my farseer was hit by the orbital and we thought she was going to die? She didn't because stealth nerf to orbitial yessss.
So uh, apparently a fortuned Banshee squad with warshout can now obliterate a stimmed ASM squad with sergeant and apoth support? Good to know.
>:|
That has not been my experience.
In fact the only way I can see that happening is if the ASM are doomed, the bansehes are guided and fortuned, and the apothecary doesnt heal.
Even then I cant really see it, what the eldar player has to do there in my experience is assassinate the apothecary, bring him down as quickly as possible, using the above combo, then quickly retreat and come back for the assault marines.
So uh, apparently a fortuned Banshee squad with warshout can now obliterate a stimmed ASM squad with sergeant and apoth support? Good to know.
>:|
That has not been my experience.
In fact the only way I can see that happening is if the ASM are doomed, the bansehes are guided and fortuned, and the apothecary doesnt heal.
You'll have watch my super fun replay with Goomba then. Unless I'm just missing something obvious that I shouldn't have done. Because I'm really hoping I just made some terrible mistake or the ASMs bugged or something, because these banshees were still at almost full health. Oh and he said he didn't use Doom.
This experience has been so traumatizing for me that I am now, as a SM player, terrified of banshees.
I really don't understand the Mekboy mine bitching. Even if he throws them at his feet into a melee blob, that seems perfectly acceptable to me. It's not like he has crazy good offensive capabilities anyway. If the mines weren't so popular you'd all be bitching about the force field overload.
One: His offensive abilities are fucking perfectly fine you git.
2. Instantly gibbing entire armies isn't really, hmm, fair. Sorry, orks, the game isn't meant for you to instantly kill everything. Maybe you should try playing the campaign on rookie.
III Overload is fine. That's a dumb thing to bring up.
So uh, apparently a fortuned Banshee squad with warshout can now obliterate a stimmed ASM squad with sergeant and apoth support? Good to know.
>:|
That has not been my experience.
In fact the only way I can see that happening is if the ASM are doomed, the bansehes are guided and fortuned, and the apothecary doesnt heal.
You'll have watch my super fun replay with Goomba then. Unless I'm just missing something obvious that I shouldn't have done. Because I'm really hoping I just made some terrible mistake or the ASMs bugged or something, because these banshees were still at almost full health. Oh and he said he didn't use Doom.
This experience has been so traumatizing for me that I am now, as a SM player, terrified of banshees.
They're not grenades Pancake, they're mines. You have to step on them to set them off. Now obviously combined with his teleport, the mek can cause some harassment. But about all he can is drop the mines, and he's not even that accurate with them. I don't see how throwing them at your feet or chucking them into a group from the side makes any difference. He even has a warm up timer on them.
Edit: Also to Goomba, he has the shoota and deff gun upgrade, which basically make him a teleporting loota squad. The shoota, while providing a nice suppression every once in awhile doesn't do a whole lot of damage from my experience, and deff gun can be nice, but requires a lot of micro. All I'm saying is that those upgrades really don't sync with his mines that well, or at least not the throw them at my feet tactic.
They're not grenades Pancake, they're mines. You have to step on them to set them off. Now obviously combined with his teleport, the mek can cause some harassment. But about all he can is drop the mines, and he's not even that accurate with them. I don't see how throwing them at your feet or chucking them into a group from the side makes any difference. He even has a warm up timer on them.
Are you fucking stupid? If he throws them directly at units that are moving, they go off immediately. If they're right in front of him, all three mines will go off at once.
They're not grenades Pancake, they're mines. You have to step on them to set them off. Now obviously combined with his teleport, the mek can cause some harassment. But about all he can is drop the mines, and he's not even that accurate with them. I don't see how throwing them at your feet or chucking them into a group from the side makes any difference. He even has a warm up timer on them.
He doesn't just drop them though. He throws them into the middle of your army and kills it instantly. The warm up timer is at most 2 seconds too.
They're not grenades Pancake, they're mines. You have to step on them to set them off. Now obviously combined with his teleport, the mek can cause some harassment. But about all he can is drop the mines, and he's not even that accurate with them. I don't see how throwing them at your feet or chucking them into a group from the side makes any difference. He even has a warm up timer on them.
Edit: Also to Goomba, he has the shoota and deff gun upgrade, which basically make him a teleporting loota squad. The shoota, while providing a nice suppression every once in awhile doesn't do a whole lot of damage from my experience, and deff gun can be nice, but requires a lot of micro. All I'm saying is that those upgrades really don't sync with his mines that well.
If only he had some sort of good ranged weapon or accessories.
Hey wait.
Edit: Dr. Tongue, he can drop them. So when something, anything really, steps on it it dies. Save maybe high health tanks and avatars.
They're not grenades Pancake, they're mines. You have to step on them to set them off. Now obviously combined with his teleport, the mek can cause some harassment. But about all he can is drop the mines, and he's not even that accurate with them. I don't see how throwing them at your feet or chucking them into a group from the side makes any difference. He even has a warm up timer on them.
Are you fucking stupid? If he throws them directly at units that are moving, they go off immediately. If they're right in front of him, all three mines will go off at once.
Then don't melee him? Make him teleport into your squad to do it and get suppressed by a platform? And yes...I am fucking stupid.
They're not grenades Pancake, they're mines. You have to step on them to set them off. Now obviously combined with his teleport, the mek can cause some harassment. But about all he can is drop the mines, and he's not even that accurate with them. I don't see how throwing them at your feet or chucking them into a group from the side makes any difference. He even has a warm up timer on them.
Are you fucking stupid? If he throws them directly at units that are moving, they go off immediately. If they're right in front of him, all three mines will go off at once.
Then don't melee him? Make him teleport into your squad to do it and get suppressed by a platform? And yes...I am fucking stupid.
That does not work at all with ork. I am also fairly certain mines have a special effect on vehicles too.
Looted tanks completely stop moving and trukks move at half speed or so. Is there tread/tire damage in dow2?
They're not grenades Pancake, they're mines. You have to step on them to set them off. Now obviously combined with his teleport, the mek can cause some harassment. But about all he can is drop the mines, and he's not even that accurate with them. I don't see how throwing them at your feet or chucking them into a group from the side makes any difference. He even has a warm up timer on them.
Are you fucking stupid? If he throws them directly at units that are moving, they go off immediately. If they're right in front of him, all three mines will go off at once.
Then don't melee him? Make him teleport into your squad to do it and get suppressed by a platform? And yes...I am fucking stupid.
Why would a unit with ranged suppression teleport into a squad? And how would you force a fragile commander unit to want to teleport into melee range of enemy squads?
Maybe if they just put an activation timer on the mines like there are for grenades though slightly longer, say 2-3s, since mines dont disappear when they miss like grenades do, it would work out better.
Sort of like a build time on ravener tunnels, but actually balances. :P
Also if I can get all game design for a minute, this is the melee vs ranged problem:
In generic non-squad based RTS, ranged units become exponentially more powerful as the size of their forces increase, whereas melee units become increasingly worse as the scale increases and they reach the maximum number of units able to get into melee. Take the classic Zergling vs Marine example. 2 Zerglings are the same price as one Marine, and the Zerglings will completely destroy the Marine. However, in a larger engagement, say 20 Zerglings vs 10 Marines, the Marines have an advantage because they can destroy some or all of the Zerglings before they even reach melee range, and the larger the fight the more extreme this example is.
Now DoW2 has 3 critical reasons why this doesn't work here: Melee Combat, Squads and Retreat. A ranged unit in Starcraft still does full range damage even when being attacked in melee (which exceptions of units with minimum range like Siege-Mode Siege Tanks etc), so being locked into Melee Combat doesn't make a difference to its damage output. However a ranged unit in DoW2 locked into Melee Combat is forced to use its (likely vastly inferior) melee skill to fight. This is further compounded by the Squad system of DoW2. This means that one melee attacker can force an entire squad of ranged units into melee combat, and the AI's obsession with having them seek cover during gunfights means the squad is probably spread out and more easily engaged in melee.
Finally, the Retreat mechanic and the vast difference between Ranged and Melee damage to retreating units (melee does 6.5x the damage of ranged damage to a retreating unit) and that the Retreat mechanic takes out a lot of the risk of trying to get into melee range (get surprised by a suppression weapon? just retreat!). This is further compounded by the fact that the two main melee races are also horde races and can cause retreating units to get stuck in them. It basically means that Tyranids and Orks can much more easily capitalize on a retreat than Eldar or Space Marines, since the melee units Eldar/SM do have are in such small numbers they can't block the retreat path the way orks and tyranids can.
All these factors combine to give melee a pretty sizable advantage over range, especially in a 1v1 scenario. In 3v3 especially when the Ranged army has time to fortify its position, you do start to see the exponential ranged system again but not to a sufficient extent.
They're not grenades Pancake, they're mines. You have to step on them to set them off. Now obviously combined with his teleport, the mek can cause some harassment. But about all he can is drop the mines, and he's not even that accurate with them. I don't see how throwing them at your feet or chucking them into a group from the side makes any difference. He even has a warm up timer on them.
Are you fucking stupid? If he throws them directly at units that are moving, they go off immediately. If they're right in front of him, all three mines will go off at once.
Then don't melee him? Make him teleport into your squad to do it and get suppressed by a platform? And yes...I am fucking stupid.
Why would a unit with ranged suppression teleport into a squad? And how would you force a fragile commander unit to want to teleport into melee range of enemy squads?
Maybe if they just put an activation timer on the mines like there are for grenades though slightly longer, say 2-3s, since mines dont disappear when they miss like grenades do, it would work out better.
Sort of like a build time on ravener tunnels, but actually balances. :P
Well that's my point, he's not going to want to teleport in to chuck his mines, so he has to throw them from a distance and he's not really accurate with them, plus they spread out in the air. I just don't see it as a huge problem, annoying? Sure. But game breaking Ravener level? Far from it. Of course if you're Goomba or Pancake, he really should have to ask for permission first, and then only once, any more and he's some kind of spamming asshole.
They're not grenades Pancake, they're mines. You have to step on them to set them off. Now obviously combined with his teleport, the mek can cause some harassment. But about all he can is drop the mines, and he's not even that accurate with them. I don't see how throwing them at your feet or chucking them into a group from the side makes any difference. He even has a warm up timer on them.
Are you fucking stupid? If he throws them directly at units that are moving, they go off immediately. If they're right in front of him, all three mines will go off at once.
Then don't melee him? Make him teleport into your squad to do it and get suppressed by a platform? And yes...I am fucking stupid.
What the fuck are you talking about?
Step 1: tarpit 1100/50 worth of ASM with two slugga squads.
Step 2: Teleport in. Chuck gren... mines at assault marines feet.
Step 3: Proft
I've seen 90% of two ASM squads gibbed instantly using this tactic. Wargear should not be able to do this.
p.s considering how early he gets them - it's game breaking.
I couldn't remember if I did or not, so now I know,woo. Would it have made a difference? You saw how much health the banshees had left after they finished obliterating them.
The only way Apoth+ASM are going to beat Banshee+Farseer is if you have Rites too along with stims/weapon, or the Eldar player is too retarded to actually target the Apothecary.
They're not grenades Pancake, they're mines. You have to step on them to set them off. Now obviously combined with his teleport, the mek can cause some harassment. But about all he can is drop the mines, and he's not even that accurate with them. I don't see how throwing them at your feet or chucking them into a group from the side makes any difference. He even has a warm up timer on them.
Are you fucking stupid? If he throws them directly at units that are moving, they go off immediately. If they're right in front of him, all three mines will go off at once.
Then don't melee him? Make him teleport into your squad to do it and get suppressed by a platform? And yes...I am fucking stupid.
Why would a unit with ranged suppression teleport into a squad? And how would you force a fragile commander unit to want to teleport into melee range of enemy squads?
Maybe if they just put an activation timer on the mines like there are for grenades though slightly longer, say 2-3s, since mines dont disappear when they miss like grenades do, it would work out better.
Sort of like a build time on ravener tunnels, but actually balances. :P
Well that's my point, he's not going to want to teleport in to chuck his mines, so he has to throw them from a distance and he's not really accurate with them, plus they spread out in the air. I just don't see it as a huge problem, annoying? Sure. But game breaking Ravener level? Far from it. Of course if you're Goomba or Pancake, he really should have to ask for permission first, and then only once, any more and he's some kind of spamming asshole.
You are increasingly reminding me of tyranid players that massed AG warriors and rippers.
Whatever Pancake, Relic could come in here and award you top player all time and give you extra special army bonuses that apply whenever you play, and you would still bitch and complain. At some point you have to move on from the pointless debates about who's the most overpowered and just play the damn game. It's not hard to deal with the mek boy if you expect the mines to be coming.
Do Eldar really need some revamping as a race?, hells yes they do, as Tyranids also need to be dropped down a notch. But christ...let it go already, the mek boy mines should be like #200 on the list of things that need to be changed with this game. They just aren't that big of a deal. They cost energy, they're inaccurate, they have a 2 second warmup (which is an eternity in this game), and though they're great early game they lose the ability to mass kill squads pretty quickly.
Well the list of outrageously overpowered stuff is pretty short now, it's really just like Tyranids and Mek mines. Obviously a lot of other stuff needs work or changes in one direction or anything, but those are the main ones really breaking the game right now (I'm not looking at the various bugs or mechanic problems here).
Akira on
0
Zen VulgarityWhat a lovely day for teaSecret British ThreadRegistered Userregular
edited May 2009
If you have a single detector unit anywhere near the mines he just wasted his energy.
Unless of course he explodes the mines himself with a grenade.
Well the list of outrageously overpowered stuff is pretty short now, it's really just like Tyranids and Mek mines. Obviously a lot of other stuff needs work or changes in one direction or anything, but those are the main ones really breaking the game right now (I'm not looking at the various bugs or mechanic problems here).
Ha, I'm with you on the Tyranids, but I would argue Eldar need some serious love before mek mines. Which I will concede could use some changes. Eldar seem to be powerful in a seasoned players hands, but they're impossible when you're new.
Well the list of outrageously overpowered stuff is pretty short now, it's really just like Tyranids and Mek mines. Obviously a lot of other stuff needs work or changes in one direction or anything, but those are the main ones really breaking the game right now (I'm not looking at the various bugs or mechanic problems here).
Ha, I'm with you on the Tyranids, but I would argue Eldar need some serious love before mek mines. Which I will concede could use some changes. Eldar seem to be powerful in a seasoned players hands, but they're impossible when you're new.
-Choose Farseer hero
-Make Banshees
-Get Fortune and maybe Doom
-Win game
Akira on
0
Zen VulgarityWhat a lovely day for teaSecret British ThreadRegistered Userregular
edited May 2009
You don't and your things die.
I was specifically thinking about eldar. Only scrubs play Space Marines.
Posts
Actually, this is another rare instance where I side with Goomba. "tarpitting" is exploiting the terrible pathing AI of retreating units (who do not know how to get unstuck or move around an enemy) and the fact that retreating units take 130% damage from melee.
Since your units can't run out of a melee tarpit, you're forced to watch your retreating units die. It basically means that melee armies can retreat from ranged armies, but not the other way around, and it's pretty silly. It unbalances the game way in favor of melee armies.
edit; and fix pathing and whatnot of course.
On the black screen
Edit: Gee. That sounds mean.
Look mom, I am Goomba now.
The chance of them killing a few, which you presumably mean to be two or three which is like half the squad is absolutley zero. Even (basic) tacs cant do that.
Just saying man.
Also tar pitting units is perfectly acceptable, it does make the game more melee heavy, but if they would just give the banshees a boost, I don't think anybody would care, as each race would have a decent counter to it.
>:|
On the black screen
I know, because all other armies get powerful instantly detonating grenades that suppress every unit they hit.
The way things work right now, melee has an incredible advantage over ranged, especially since melee units can neuter the damage output of ranged units once they're actually in melee. The 130% damage boost is ridiculous. Ranged units and, fuck, even melee units, not being able to ever leave melee is just absurd, and that's how the game works.
And you can't just say "well retreat sooner, idiot" because then you'd never be able to do anything because you'd be constantly fucking retreating and then someone would be waiting in your retreat path anyway.
NNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo
That has not been my experience.
In fact the only way I can see that happening is if the ASM are doomed, the bansehes are guided and fortuned, and the apothecary doesnt heal.
Even then I cant really see it, what the eldar player has to do there in my experience is assassinate the apothecary, bring him down as quickly as possible, using the above combo, then quickly retreat and come back for the assault marines.
You'll have watch my super fun replay with Goomba then. Unless I'm just missing something obvious that I shouldn't have done. Because I'm really hoping I just made some terrible mistake or the ASMs bugged or something, because these banshees were still at almost full health. Oh and he said he didn't use Doom.
This experience has been so traumatizing for me that I am now, as a SM player, terrified of banshees.
On the black screen
2. Instantly gibbing entire armies isn't really, hmm, fair. Sorry, orks, the game isn't meant for you to instantly kill everything. Maybe you should try playing the campaign on rookie.
III Overload is fine. That's a dumb thing to bring up.
I'll go watch it now.
Edit: Also to Goomba, he has the shoota and deff gun upgrade, which basically make him a teleporting loota squad. The shoota, while providing a nice suppression every once in awhile doesn't do a whole lot of damage from my experience, and deff gun can be nice, but requires a lot of micro. All I'm saying is that those upgrades really don't sync with his mines that well, or at least not the throw them at my feet tactic.
Are you fucking stupid? If he throws them directly at units that are moving, they go off immediately. If they're right in front of him, all three mines will go off at once.
He doesn't just drop them though. He throws them into the middle of your army and kills it instantly. The warm up timer is at most 2 seconds too.
Hey wait.
Edit: Dr. Tongue, he can drop them. So when something, anything really, steps on it it dies. Save maybe high health tanks and avatars.
Then don't melee him? Make him teleport into your squad to do it and get suppressed by a platform? And yes...I am fucking stupid.
That does not work at all with ork. I am also fairly certain mines have a special effect on vehicles too.
Looted tanks completely stop moving and trukks move at half speed or so. Is there tread/tire damage in dow2?
Why would a unit with ranged suppression teleport into a squad? And how would you force a fragile commander unit to want to teleport into melee range of enemy squads?
Maybe if they just put an activation timer on the mines like there are for grenades though slightly longer, say 2-3s, since mines dont disappear when they miss like grenades do, it would work out better.
Sort of like a build time on ravener tunnels, but actually balances. :P
MWO: Adamski
In generic non-squad based RTS, ranged units become exponentially more powerful as the size of their forces increase, whereas melee units become increasingly worse as the scale increases and they reach the maximum number of units able to get into melee. Take the classic Zergling vs Marine example. 2 Zerglings are the same price as one Marine, and the Zerglings will completely destroy the Marine. However, in a larger engagement, say 20 Zerglings vs 10 Marines, the Marines have an advantage because they can destroy some or all of the Zerglings before they even reach melee range, and the larger the fight the more extreme this example is.
Now DoW2 has 3 critical reasons why this doesn't work here: Melee Combat, Squads and Retreat. A ranged unit in Starcraft still does full range damage even when being attacked in melee (which exceptions of units with minimum range like Siege-Mode Siege Tanks etc), so being locked into Melee Combat doesn't make a difference to its damage output. However a ranged unit in DoW2 locked into Melee Combat is forced to use its (likely vastly inferior) melee skill to fight. This is further compounded by the Squad system of DoW2. This means that one melee attacker can force an entire squad of ranged units into melee combat, and the AI's obsession with having them seek cover during gunfights means the squad is probably spread out and more easily engaged in melee.
Finally, the Retreat mechanic and the vast difference between Ranged and Melee damage to retreating units (melee does 6.5x the damage of ranged damage to a retreating unit) and that the Retreat mechanic takes out a lot of the risk of trying to get into melee range (get surprised by a suppression weapon? just retreat!). This is further compounded by the fact that the two main melee races are also horde races and can cause retreating units to get stuck in them. It basically means that Tyranids and Orks can much more easily capitalize on a retreat than Eldar or Space Marines, since the melee units Eldar/SM do have are in such small numbers they can't block the retreat path the way orks and tyranids can.
All these factors combine to give melee a pretty sizable advantage over range, especially in a 1v1 scenario. In 3v3 especially when the Ranged army has time to fortify its position, you do start to see the exponential ranged system again but not to a sufficient extent.
Well that's my point, he's not going to want to teleport in to chuck his mines, so he has to throw them from a distance and he's not really accurate with them, plus they spread out in the air. I just don't see it as a huge problem, annoying? Sure. But game breaking Ravener level? Far from it. Of course if you're Goomba or Pancake, he really should have to ask for permission first, and then only once, any more and he's some kind of spamming asshole.
What the fuck are you talking about?
Step 1: tarpit 1100/50 worth of ASM with two slugga squads.
Step 2: Teleport in. Chuck gren... mines at assault marines feet.
Step 3: Proft
I've seen 90% of two ASM squads gibbed instantly using this tactic. Wargear should not be able to do this.
p.s considering how early he gets them - it's game breaking.
I couldn't remember if I did or not, so now I know,woo. Would it have made a difference? You saw how much health the banshees had left after they finished obliterating them.
On the black screen
You are increasingly reminding me of tyranid players that massed AG warriors and rippers.
Do Eldar really need some revamping as a race?, hells yes they do, as Tyranids also need to be dropped down a notch. But christ...let it go already, the mek boy mines should be like #200 on the list of things that need to be changed with this game. They just aren't that big of a deal. They cost energy, they're inaccurate, they have a 2 second warmup (which is an eternity in this game), and though they're great early game they lose the ability to mass kill squads pretty quickly.
Unless of course he explodes the mines himself with a grenade.
But he's likely not that smart.
Ha, I'm with you on the Tyranids, but I would argue Eldar need some serious love before mek mines. Which I will concede could use some changes. Eldar seem to be powerful in a seasoned players hands, but they're impossible when you're new.
-Choose Farseer hero
-Make Banshees
-Get Fortune and maybe Doom
-Win game
I was specifically thinking about eldar. Only scrubs play Space Marines.
Some of us don't like to exploit the most overpowered race in the game (Eldar) and prefer the challenge of Space Marines. Scrub.