Yes, I do hate fighting games. I hate how they're generally in a 2D plane, with characters moving back and forth across the screen. I hate how they do really weird moves like throwing fireballs at each other with kung fu. And I find it incredibly unrealistic how you can juggle opponents in the air with a flurry of attacks, somehow defying the laws of gravity. Seriously, how does kicking a guy a lot allow him to float in the air like that? It doesn't make any sense.
We're talking about fighting games here, not fighting simulators... They're not supposed to be realistic.
That's true. It's just that the OP asked who hated fighting games and, well... I'm somewhat of a hateful person in general.
Planning on posting a thread on why I hate anime someday. That one's gonna be rather long, I'm afraid.
My point though, is that items have been playtested, and found to be detrimental to the gameplay. In Quake, items always spawn in the same place, and respawn at a regular interval. In smash, the item spawns are random, and some are quite powerful. Therefore, every other strategy is superceded by 'grab the good items', and it was decided that the more fundamental gameplay, that of doing damage and knocking your opponent off the edge, was much more interesting.
In my analogy, playing to grab the items beats out every other strategy, similar to how playing Akuma beats out every other strategy.
My point though, is that items have been playtested, and found to be detrimental to the gameplay. In Quake, items always spawn in the same place, and respawn at a regular interval. In smash, the item spawns are random, and some are quite powerful. Therefore, every other strategy is superceded by 'grab the good items', and it was decided that the more fundamental gameplay, that of doing damage and knocking your opponent off the edge, was much more interesting.
In my analogy, playing to grab the items beats out every other strategy, similar to how playing Akuma beats out every other strategy.
Yep, exactly, the issue with items in Smash Brothers is that the element of randomness is too strong. Some randomness is good in gameplay--it forces adaptation, makes players think on their feet, makes things more interesting--but when the rewards are so powerful, it can start to feel less like a skill-based game and more like gambling. I do think some of the items are well-balanced, and a reasonable set could be constructed that would introduce that random element into the gameplay without breaking things. But some items just tip it over the edge into "that baseball bat dropped right on top of him at the perfect time".
OremLK on
My zombie survival life simulator They Don't Sleep is out now on Steam if you want to check it out.
My point though, is that items have been playtested, and found to be detrimental to the gameplay. In Quake, items always spawn in the same place, and respawn at a regular interval. In smash, the item spawns are random, and some are quite powerful. Therefore, every other strategy is superceded by 'grab the good items', and it was decided that the more fundamental gameplay, that of doing damage and knocking your opponent off the edge, was much more interesting.
In my analogy, playing to grab the items beats out every other strategy, similar to how playing Akuma beats out every other strategy.
Yep, exactly, the issue with items in Smash Brothers is that the element of randomness is too strong. Some randomness is good in gameplay--it forces adaptation, makes players think on their feet, makes things more interesting--but when the rewards are so powerful, it can start to feel less like a skill-based game and more like gambling. I do think some of the items are well-balanced, and a reasonable set could be constructed that would introduce that random element into the gameplay without breaking things. But some items just tip it over the edge into "that baseball bat dropped right on top of him at the perfect time".
I recall personifying the system behind spawning items in melee; I called it REGgie (Random Explosive Generator).
I fucking hated REGgie sometimes. Still, games with my pals were always more fun with him around, so I cut him some slack.
Edit: Also, every time I see this thread title I think "We wear short shorts!" Not that I'm wearing short shorts.
It determines at what velocity you fly away when somebody beats on you. To kill somebody, you have to beat on them enough that they'll fly totally off the map (or far enough that they can't get back and fall to the bottom).
OremLK on
My zombie survival life simulator They Don't Sleep is out now on Steam if you want to check it out.
Well guess what? The items spawn like that because the game is not meant for tourney play. I still don't quite see your point since both players can grab the items, and Evo did remove a bunch of the items, only the ones that were deemed to be balanced (they have drawbacks as well, aren't overpowered) were allowed.
Allowed Items: Banana Peel, Unira, Spring, Mr. Saturn, Green Shell, Smoke Ball, Freezie, Super Scope, Sandbag, Food, Screw Attack, Warp Star, Metal Box, Bunny Hood, Beam Sword, Baseball Bat, Lip's Stick, Star Rod, Hothead, Smash Ball, Ray Gun, Pitfall, Cracker Launcher, Motion-Sensor Bomb, Hammer, Golden Hammer, Bumper, Franklin Badge.
All of the imba things like Pokeballs, Maxim tomatoes, heart containers, the fan, and Starman are removed. None of the leftover items are that powerful, and many of them have obvious weaknesses.
I'm not happy that we removed Smash, but there was no good option here. Evo and the Smash community just have a different viewpoints on tournament rule sets. We were basically in a position where we would have to either compromise our own goals or produce a tournament that most Smash players would not find acceptable. It's best for us to just agree that we disagree and move on. I wish the Smash community the best of luck in their future tournaments.
Well, good for them getting rid of some of the worst offenders. Does seem like a few of the ones they left in could have been kept out, but maybe that's nitpicking. I don't really care either way though.
OremLK on
My zombie survival life simulator They Don't Sleep is out now on Steam if you want to check it out.
Buahaha. That Sol throwing faust into his own bomb was excellent.
I admire top virtua fighter players. They make the game seem so fluid.
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PunkBoyThank you! And thank you again!Registered Userregular
edited April 2009
I used to not really care about fighting game tournaments, but after I helped run one at my school, I changed my mind completely. It was a lot of fun watching and getting excited over the matches, and the players I met were cool guys and girls.
PunkBoy on
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I find Evo kind of pathetic actually, especially compared to the craziness of Tougeki. I will admit that some of that is because the US doesn't import most fighters so it's the difference between "oh, hey here are the three new hyped fighters for this year" and "Oh boy, the 5th year of watching the same 4 people dominate MvC2."
Different tournament format also help a lot (2/3rds of the games are done in teams, so you actually see a huge variety of characters), and regional qualifiers mean that even the intro matches tend to be interesting.
My point though, is that items have been playtested, and found to be detrimental to the gameplay.
By the people who only played Fox on Final Destination, so gives a fuck what they decided. The EVO tourney videos are actually fun to watch, unlike most "competitive" SSBB vids.
Evo has a lot of problems, and a lot of things about it that I don't like. But they run it well, and it's big and consistent. They're dropping 3S, they've let SC back in, and next year there'll be a couple new KOF games, T6, and who knows what else to consider.
I really hope I can get the moneys to go this year.
I always wondered about that, because I've known SoW for a long time and he's never played Mitsu. I should have asked him, but I never thought to.
That was the same year that RTD and Mick split the finals pot and played the Voldo mirror match or whatever instead, wasn't it? It's no wonder the didn't bring SC back the next year.
I always wondered about that, because I've known SoW for a long time and he's never played Mitsu. I should have asked him, but I never thought to.
That was the same year that RTD and Mick split the finals pot and played the Voldo mirror match or whatever instead, wasn't it? It's no wonder the didn't bring SC back the next year.
SSB, Power Stone and Naruto are not fighting games, and they don't even have difficult inputs or combos that keep you from just picking them up and playing them.
Please tell me how SSB is not a fighting game.
Its a platform brawler, to call it a fighting game is blasphemy.
By the people who only played Fox on Final Destination, so gives a fuck what they decided. The EVO tourney videos are actually fun to watch, unlike most "competitive" SSBB vids.
...?
I have no idea where the 'Fox on Final Destination' misconception comes from. All characters are allowed, as are most stages.
Sheesh... 9 pages in a short period of time... I'll try to address what the OP was frustrated with.
I think I saw it said earlier, but most fighting games (2D especially) really aren't designed to be single-player experiences. Most (all?) 2D fighters started as arcade games, which fostered face-to-face competition, which, in the case where people weren't dicks, fostered learning about the games' mechanics/nuances. Removing that element from the genre removes a crucial learning step.
For a couple months prior to my Xbox 360 shitting the bed and the release of Street Fighter 4, a bunch of us PAers would get together on XBL mostly every night just playing each other in friendly matches of SSF2T HD Remix. It's the most fun I've had with video games in years, and I learned a ton about the game as well, in a remarkably short period. None of us would really play with our best characters (unless we were trying to test something out), we would always answer a question when it was asked, and everybody knew we were just playing for the fun of it. We had our tournaments for playing serious business games, but other than that, nobody got shit on for not knowing x combo or how to do y move properly. You asked, you got an answer, and you kept practicing if you wanted to learn it, or you gave up if you didn't care enough. It worked.
I think there's a bit of an attitude with competitive fighting games when played really competitively; this can make people frustrated if they're just looking to have a good time. If you want to play competitively, you need to practice, end of story. If you just want to dick around and have fun with the game, find a group of people (everyone from the old HDR thread) and have fun with them (us).
I like the Street Fighter series in particular because you get out of it what you put into it. The game is a reflection of your attitude towards it. If you enjoy playing at a high level, practice for like, fucking forever and you'll get there. If you don't, I'll always be here to have fun.
dear god yes! This singlehandedly restored my faith in online console gaming. It was also the primary driving force in my buying of SF4, stupidly assuming this mode would be included in SF4. When I discovered that was not the case, that crazy free add-on we'd see months later would obviously have to have it!
My point though, is that items have been playtested, and found to be detrimental to the gameplay.
By the people who only played Fox on Final Destination, so gives a fuck what they decided. The EVO tourney videos are actually fun to watch, unlike most "competitive" SSBB vids.
Ugh, please. Discussions about items in Smash Bros games should lead to bans on this forum. They always end in tears.
- I will agree that items are fun, but they lead to players getting advantages purely because of luck. Luckily, playing without items is still fun. If it wasn't, nobody would be playing that way.
- While Fox is still considered the best character in Melee, it's close. The last major Melee tournament was won by a Jigglypuff-player.
- Final Destination is not the only legal stage in Melee. Other stages that are legal and often used include Brinstar, Mute City, Past Stages: Kongo Jungle, and Pokefloats.
Yeah, but unless the items are completely broken (and those were excluded from EVO, though their list is open to debate) it just changes the mechanic from "you know everything the opponent can do" to "you know everything an opponent can do, but need to dynamically adjust your strategy". They're just added abilities, as potentially imbalancing as any character-specific move that one player has but not the other. The idea that some global consensus was reached that all items hamper gameplay is ludicrous.
Yes, I do hate fighting games. I hate how they're generally in a 2D plane, with characters moving back and forth across the screen. I hate how they do really weird moves like throwing fireballs at each other with kung fu. And I find it incredibly unrealistic how you can juggle opponents in the air with a flurry of attacks, somehow defying the laws of gravity. Seriously, how does kicking a guy a lot allow him to float in the air like that? It doesn't make any sense.
So you hate every game ever except maybe Flight Simulator X?
We're talking about fighting games here, not fighting simulators... They're not supposed to be realistic.'
e: ninja edit!
There's always Bushido Blade or Fight Night for a non-juggling, non-fireballing fighting fix. It's easy to say fighters are unrealistic if you ignore the realistic ones.
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acidlacedpenguinInstitutionalizedSafe in jail.Registered Userregular
Yeah, but unless the items are completely broken (and those were excluded from EVO, though their list is open to debate) it just changes the mechanic from "you know everything the opponent can do" to "you know everything an opponent can do, but need to dynamically adjust your strategy". They're just added abilities, as potentially imbalancing as any character-specific move that one player has but not the other. The idea that some global consensus was reached that all items hamper gameplay is ludicrous.
with that said, the only thing that makes me not want to play Smash (other than for fun 4 player party battling) is the smash ball. I simply don't like that if I'm winning by out performing my opponent I can lose if the random near-instant win generator decides that it's not my time to win. Conversely, if I'm being outperformed, I don't want to win just because the random near-instant win generator decides that it is my turn to win.
I'd like to reiterate right now that I love me some Smash, just not competitively.
Yeah, but unless the items are completely broken (and those were excluded from EVO, though their list is open to debate) it just changes the mechanic from "you know everything the opponent can do" to "you know everything an opponent can do, but need to dynamically adjust your strategy". They're just added abilities, as potentially imbalancing as any character-specific move that one player has but not the other. The idea that some global consensus was reached that all items hamper gameplay is ludicrous.
with that said, the only thing that makes me not want to play Smash (other than for fun 4 player party battling) is the smash ball. I simply don't like that if I'm winning by out performing my opponent I can lose if the random near-instant win generator decides that it's not my time to win. Conversely, if I'm being outperformed, I don't want to win just because the random near-instant win generator decides that it is my turn to win.
I'd like to reiterate right now that I love me some Smash, just not competitively.
Bah. Every Final Smash has a dodging strategy, and you can hit the FS out of the other character as well. It's like not wanting to play SFIV because of Ultras.
Dodging every meteor in the Ness/Lucas FS is a really fun trick to pull, and on some stages, dodging Marth's FS gives the dodger a point.
edit: and the first time I saw the "list of approved stages" for Melee my first thought was "why are all the fun stages in red?"
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acidlacedpenguinInstitutionalizedSafe in jail.Registered Userregular
edited April 2009
no actually it's not like not wanting to play SF4 because of ultras. . .
well it would be like ultras IF you didn't get ultras by taking damage, and instead had to hit some random flying object for some indeterminant amount of damage before you were allowed to use the ultra.
and in fact, I'd probably enjoy it more if you got final smashes by taking 150% or more or something. . .
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DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
well it would be like ultras IF you didn't get ultras by taking damage, and instead had to hit some random flying object for some indeterminant amount of damage before you were allowed to use the ultra.
Then your opponent gets it anyway because they hit it for the one more point of damage that it needed to break.
Which can be disheartening when you were wailing on the thing for like 5 seconds.
I had an idea: Anytime I will play any FPS on multiplayer, will be without any weapons (only the initial pistol) and the map will be an empty and bland map without edges/walls/etc., Because doors and rocket launchers are gamebreakers.
I think the next game of Hold'Em I play, I'll use a deck that only contains fifty-two copies of the seven of clubs, to ensure a level playing field.
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DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
edited April 2009
You guys are missing the point, really. I do agree that vanilla Smash is boring, but still don't think the analogies you guys are using work.
Though I don't like arguing about Smash because the community can never come to consensus about items and I don't really care and would rather just play another fighting game.
The reason why items were banned in SSB: Melee was because, with even a single item turned on, the item could spawn as an explosive pill.
Said explosive pill, if struck, can kill you instantly if you are at a decent percent.
The previously aforementioned pill could materialize right in front of you, say, just after you started charging a smash attack.
There is nothing you can do to cancel your smash attack, you basically lose a life out of complete and utter randomness.
This does not make for good competitive play. It's really not a complicated concept people.
Luckily for me, I don't play SSB:M competitively so I can leave items on.
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acidlacedpenguinInstitutionalizedSafe in jail.Registered Userregular
edited April 2009
oh flock off, I'm not saying "ololol eliminate all randomness in every game evar!!!!!!" How about the next time you play Hold'em, right before the reveal (ie, after all bets are taken) have every player shuffle all their pocket cards together and then draw 2 cards from the shuffled pocket.
Yeah, people playing this new shuffle Hold'em competitively (ie for money) probably aren't going to be to happy about this. . . But at the same time, non-competitively this could be pretty amusing.
If I had the money, I would host a big tournament (with real money prizes) of Mario Party or Dokapon Kingdom.
I'm not sure if I'm trying to make a point here or anything, but it would be extremely funny.
oh dear god. . . If I had a choice between setting my entry-fee on fire or entering the tournament, it'd be a tough choice. . . I'm not sure which one would be the most satisfying way to see my money disappear--never to return.
If I had the money, I would host a big tournament (with real money prizes) of Mario Party or Dokapon Kingdom.
I'm not sure if I'm trying to make a point here or anything, but it would be extremely funny.
oh dear god. . . If I had a choice between setting my entry-fee on fire or entering the tournament, it'd be a tough choice. . . I'm not sure which one would be the most satisfying way to see my money disappear--never to return.
How is it tough? In one situation, you burned down money. In the other, you're playing a fun game and might win money. Of course you'll probably get enraged beyond human belief if the game's Dokapon Kingdom, but hey.
Posts
That's true. It's just that the OP asked who hated fighting games and, well... I'm somewhat of a hateful person in general.
Planning on posting a thread on why I hate anime someday. That one's gonna be rather long, I'm afraid.
My point though, is that items have been playtested, and found to be detrimental to the gameplay. In Quake, items always spawn in the same place, and respawn at a regular interval. In smash, the item spawns are random, and some are quite powerful. Therefore, every other strategy is superceded by 'grab the good items', and it was decided that the more fundamental gameplay, that of doing damage and knocking your opponent off the edge, was much more interesting.
In my analogy, playing to grab the items beats out every other strategy, similar to how playing Akuma beats out every other strategy.
GT: Tanky the Tank
Black: 1377 6749 7425
Yep, exactly, the issue with items in Smash Brothers is that the element of randomness is too strong. Some randomness is good in gameplay--it forces adaptation, makes players think on their feet, makes things more interesting--but when the rewards are so powerful, it can start to feel less like a skill-based game and more like gambling. I do think some of the items are well-balanced, and a reasonable set could be constructed that would introduce that random element into the gameplay without breaking things. But some items just tip it over the edge into "that baseball bat dropped right on top of him at the perfect time".
I recall personifying the system behind spawning items in melee; I called it REGgie (Random Explosive Generator).
I fucking hated REGgie sometimes. Still, games with my pals were always more fun with him around, so I cut him some slack.
Edit: Also, every time I see this thread title I think "We wear short shorts!" Not that I'm wearing short shorts.
What's the health percentage even for?
It determines at what velocity you fly away when somebody beats on you. To kill somebody, you have to beat on them enough that they'll fly totally off the map (or far enough that they can't get back and fall to the bottom).
Allowed Items: Banana Peel, Unira, Spring, Mr. Saturn, Green Shell, Smoke Ball, Freezie, Super Scope, Sandbag, Food, Screw Attack, Warp Star, Metal Box, Bunny Hood, Beam Sword, Baseball Bat, Lip's Stick, Star Rod, Hothead, Smash Ball, Ray Gun, Pitfall, Cracker Launcher, Motion-Sensor Bomb, Hammer, Golden Hammer, Bumper, Franklin Badge.
All of the imba things like Pokeballs, Maxim tomatoes, heart containers, the fan, and Starman are removed. None of the leftover items are that powerful, and many of them have obvious weaknesses.
Whatever, the Smash community hated it, and they're not going back.
Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
stream
It's pretty big.
Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
stream
I admire top virtua fighter players. They make the game seem so fluid.
Different tournament format also help a lot (2/3rds of the games are done in teams, so you actually see a huge variety of characters), and regional qualifiers mean that even the intro matches tend to be interesting.
Plus the spectacle.
I really hope I can get the moneys to go this year.
Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
stream
AHAHAHAH the memories...
The Featuring part in the beginning where it shows the name Sownemesis and SCII?
That's my Mitsu.
That was the same year that RTD and Mick split the finals pot and played the Voldo mirror match or whatever instead, wasn't it? It's no wonder the didn't bring SC back the next year.
Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
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That's the same year I threw up in my mouth.
That WAS his Sophie bouncing around though. ;-)
Its a platform brawler, to call it a fighting game is blasphemy.
...?
I have no idea where the 'Fox on Final Destination' misconception comes from. All characters are allowed, as are most stages.
So... fuck off.
GT: Tanky the Tank
Black: 1377 6749 7425
dear god yes! This singlehandedly restored my faith in online console gaming. It was also the primary driving force in my buying of SF4, stupidly assuming this mode would be included in SF4. When I discovered that was not the case, that crazy free add-on we'd see months later would obviously have to have it!
Oh, you poor deluded fool.
Ugh, please. Discussions about items in Smash Bros games should lead to bans on this forum. They always end in tears.
- I will agree that items are fun, but they lead to players getting advantages purely because of luck. Luckily, playing without items is still fun. If it wasn't, nobody would be playing that way.
- While Fox is still considered the best character in Melee, it's close. The last major Melee tournament was won by a Jigglypuff-player.
- Final Destination is not the only legal stage in Melee. Other stages that are legal and often used include Brinstar, Mute City, Past Stages: Kongo Jungle, and Pokefloats.
There's always Bushido Blade or Fight Night for a non-juggling, non-fireballing fighting fix. It's easy to say fighters are unrealistic if you ignore the realistic ones.
with that said, the only thing that makes me not want to play Smash (other than for fun 4 player party battling) is the smash ball. I simply don't like that if I'm winning by out performing my opponent I can lose if the random near-instant win generator decides that it's not my time to win. Conversely, if I'm being outperformed, I don't want to win just because the random near-instant win generator decides that it is my turn to win.
I'd like to reiterate right now that I love me some Smash, just not competitively.
Bah. Every Final Smash has a dodging strategy, and you can hit the FS out of the other character as well. It's like not wanting to play SFIV because of Ultras.
Dodging every meteor in the Ness/Lucas FS is a really fun trick to pull, and on some stages, dodging Marth's FS gives the dodger a point.
edit: and the first time I saw the "list of approved stages" for Melee my first thought was "why are all the fun stages in red?"
well it would be like ultras IF you didn't get ultras by taking damage, and instead had to hit some random flying object for some indeterminant amount of damage before you were allowed to use the ultra.
and in fact, I'd probably enjoy it more if you got final smashes by taking 150% or more or something. . .
Then your opponent gets it anyway because they hit it for the one more point of damage that it needed to break.
Which can be disheartening when you were wailing on the thing for like 5 seconds.
Though I don't like arguing about Smash because the community can never come to consensus about items and I don't really care and would rather just play another fighting game.
The reason why items were banned in SSB: Melee was because, with even a single item turned on, the item could spawn as an explosive pill.
Said explosive pill, if struck, can kill you instantly if you are at a decent percent.
The previously aforementioned pill could materialize right in front of you, say, just after you started charging a smash attack.
There is nothing you can do to cancel your smash attack, you basically lose a life out of complete and utter randomness.
This does not make for good competitive play. It's really not a complicated concept people.
Luckily for me, I don't play SSB:M competitively so I can leave items on.
Yeah, people playing this new shuffle Hold'em competitively (ie for money) probably aren't going to be to happy about this. . . But at the same time, non-competitively this could be pretty amusing.
I'm not sure if I'm trying to make a point here or anything, but it would be extremely funny.
oh dear god. . . If I had a choice between setting my entry-fee on fire or entering the tournament, it'd be a tough choice. . . I'm not sure which one would be the most satisfying way to see my money disappear--never to return.
How is it tough? In one situation, you burned down money. In the other, you're playing a fun game and might win money. Of course you'll probably get enraged beyond human belief if the game's Dokapon Kingdom, but hey.
I don´t know this game. Please explain. Thanks!!