So as some people in this thread know I've been maining Ken since the game launched out of nostalgia for playing him in SFII, determined to become good with him. I've had mixed results so far; far from flowchart territory, and somewhat far from 'racking up the G2 tourney victories' too.
Out of curiosity, I gave Ryu a whirl for a few tournaments.
I am shocked at the difference. I won three tournaments out of five I played. I did not get a super-skill-injection while I was asleep to make me a better player; I checked for needle marks. I have yet to find a single match-up where I find myself thinking "Man, I wish I wasn't Ryu for this one."
Now I find myself looking at Ken like the old jalopy out in the garage
I play Chun-Li and Gouken and love both of their ultras. For Chun, dash ultra through fireballs at full screen distance always puts a smile on my face.
Oh and does blanka have the worst ultra in the game or is that just my opinion because I play him?
I feel like Guile's ultra is pretty crappy, but then again I play Guile Maybe everyone just hates the ultra of whoever they main?
I disagree dude. I LOVE Abel's ultra
LOVE IT
does massive damage, goes through fireballs (and you can throw it on reaction, full screen, against certain chars) and you can land it off his elbow. So many matches I've won because I managed to space myself just right, rolll through somebody's attack, elbow them and then ultra them for the comeback.
The latest Arcadia tier list put Abel at the top of the C tier so he was basically the "average" character in the game or a little above it. I agree with that assessment more than the eventhubs one.
When I've played as Abel I am amazed at how many moves he has that help him zone Shotos effectively. Please take my observations with a grain of salt, but he seems to be a really well-rounded character.
When he's standing up he's great: he's got incredible damage output, the roll is awesome for powering through a fireball shield, EX CoD has armor, you can dash cancel his f+mk, his command throw is incredible and he has an ultra you can combo into that just happens to be one of the strongest ultras in the game.
The two holes in his move set that I find most frustrating are big ones as well... his anti-airs are hit and miss, and he doesn't have a great reversal. Falling Sky is an extremely unreliable anti-air that only really works against certain characters (Fuerte) and I would say is basically useless outside of combos, which is too bad because it is a really sick move. c.mk hits at an odd angle and gets stuffed a lot. c.fp with the right timing is pretty good, and if you get the 2nd hit of it, it will launch the other guy so you can follow up with a short combo or your ultra.
The reversal one is the biggest. EX roll can still be thrown, wheel kick is too slow, CoD is too slow, tornado throw is really hit and miss.. he doesn't have anything as good as what the top tier chars have for their reversals (shoryuken, tiger uppercut, EX messiah kick, headbutt, EX seismic, etc.) which IMO is a pretty big weakness.
I've been playing abel more and more to the point where he's become a main alt versus gief who I normally play.. I like him for the speed versus geif as he's just too slow on the ground.. The one thing I'm really disliking about abel though is that most of his regular moves beyond the elbow and f+mk just aren't that good at all..
Oh and does blanka have the worst ultra in the game or is that just my opinion because I play him?
I feel like Guile's ultra is pretty crappy, but then again I play Guile Maybe everyone just hates the ultra of whoever they main?
I disagree dude. I LOVE Abel's ultra
LOVE IT
does massive damage, goes through fireballs (and you can throw it on reaction, full screen, against certain chars) and you can land it off his elbow. So many matches I've won because I managed to space myself just right, rolll through somebody's attack, elbow them and then ultra them for the comeback.
The latest Arcadia tier list put Abel at the top of the C tier so he was basically the "average" character in the game or a little above it. I agree with that assessment more than the eventhubs one.
When I've played as Abel I am amazed at how many moves he has that help him zone Shotos effectively. Please take my observations with a grain of salt, but he seems to be a really well-rounded character.
When he's standing up he's great: he's got incredible damage output, the roll is awesome for powering through a fireball shield, EX CoD has armor, you can dash cancel his f+mk, his command throw is incredible and he has an ultra you can combo into that just happens to be one of the strongest ultras in the game.
The two holes in his move set that I find most frustrating are big ones as well... his anti-airs are hit and miss, and he doesn't have a great reversal. Falling Sky is an extremely unreliable anti-air that only really works against certain characters (Fuerte) and I would say is basically useless outside of combos, which is too bad because it is a really sick move. c.mk hits at an odd angle and gets stuffed a lot. c.fp with the right timing is pretty good, and if you get the 2nd hit of it, it will launch the other guy so you can follow up with a short combo or your ultra.
The reversal one is the biggest. EX roll can still be thrown, wheel kick is too slow, CoD is too slow, tornado throw is really hit and miss.. he doesn't have anything as good as what the top tier chars have for their reversals (shoryuken, tiger uppercut, EX messiah kick, headbutt, EX seismic, etc.) which IMO is a pretty big weakness.
I can pretty safely TK Cannon Strike an Abel on wake-up without much concern so you are right about the reversals.
Need to wait 2 more months for PC version to hit.
Anyone here using Gouken?
How the play style for him?
You have to be secure in what you're doing. My assesment is that he's very much a reaction character. He responds pretty well to most characters attacks. His parries, if you can correctly guess where your opponent will attack, will give you an out in many cases. His fireballs, while they don't vary in speed, can be fired at three different elevations.
And if you can time it right, he can throw a person into his ultra or his rising hurricane kick.
He's good. But, to me, he requires a little bit of forethought.
I must've played through about 35 tournaments today because I got this wacky idea in my head that I needed to get ahead of Solsovly. Hah. These things are seriously addictive.
My head hurts.
I don't know what it is about championship mode but I find it so much more addicting than ranked matches.
I am getting rocked by good Blankas still. The only reason I even squeek out any wins against ones that have good mixups are because I eventually get them to EX Roll and I get to reversal demon them.
I'm pretty close to switching it up to Balrog for a while just to get some confidence back in that matchup.
I must've played through about 35 tournaments today because I got this wacky idea in my head that I needed to get ahead of Solsovly. Hah. These things are seriously addictive.
My head hurts.
I don't know what it is about championship mode but I find it so much more addicting than ranked matches.
Grade points. You're not just working to gain more and more BP, you're working to gain more and more GP, and with enough GP, you get a nifty Rank Up! message. And the right to eventually move into a new bracket full of people who are even more likely to perfect you.
I always play a ranked match after a lose a championship match. I seem to be winning every single ranked match I play, latelty, so it give a little confidence boost after getting rocked in champ mode.
The only character I hate seeing on that versus screen in Blanka. Green dude can suck a fuck. Rufus and Dhalsim can also be rather frustrating at times, but Blanka just takes the fun away.
Need to wait 2 more months for PC version to hit.
Anyone here using Gouken?
How the play style for him?
Most Goukens are pretty horrible and rely on trying to counter everything and back throws into ultras.
The scary Goukens are extremely confident and can read opponents very quickly. For instance, I got scared into using my Demon Flip --> Dive Kick because I ate two counters in a row. Now when I demon flip, I'm too scared to do the punch or kick which only leaves me with air throw or wiff to ground throw. Now he's free to use his nasty normals to punch me out of my empty jumps or throw attempts.
Another example is my normal Akuma block string of d.LP, d.LP, d.MP --> fireball. I got my fireball countered. Yes, some characters can just FA or reversal through them but it's an added fear when you get Gouken countered for some reason.
When Gouken starts making you second guess your actions, he really starts to control the match. That's when he shines. Once you get used to the match up, he's not that bad to fight against. If my opponent can read me that well, he'd probably have been able to beat me with another character. So essentially I lost to the player, not the character.
edit: backthrow into ultra is pretty managable. I think you have extra time to tech Gouken's back throw or else I'm just extra lucky against him.
Problem with Abel is that he has most of the drawbacks of being a big character (slow normals, ginormous hitbox) without most of the benefits (chunk o' damage dealing potential). His damage is good, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't warrant the fact that 1/2 the cast can lock him down in the corner with repeated standing jabs.
Best thing about him, though, is the cancellable sweep.
I've been playing abel more and more to the point where he's become a main alt versus gief who I normally play.. I like him for the speed versus geif as he's just too slow on the ground.. The one thing I'm really disliking about abel though is that most of his regular moves beyond the elbow and f+mk just aren't that good at all..
His normals are okay. Standing light kick has a lot of range on it and is very fast. Standing roundhouse isn't quite as fast but still has great range, but I would trade it in a second for Bison's standing roundhouse Most of his in-close punches are two hits so they will break armor and they have high damage output.. but I agree, the four normals of his I use on a regular basis are f+mk, c.mp (to cancel into Change of Direction), c.fp and j.mk (to combo into c.mp)
CP stands for the GP of everyone who finished below you in a given tournament. Sort of a measure of how good the competition was. The point is two things: it slightly adds to your GP bonus at the end of a tournament if it's high enough, and if you score a new personal record for CP (and that record is in the top 5000 scores online), you get to save a replay of your finals match.
CP stands for the GP of everyone who finished below you in a given tournament. Sort of a measure of how good the competition was. The point is two things: it slightly adds to your GP bonus at the end of a tournament if it's high enough, and if you score a new personal record for CP (and that record is in the top 5000 scores online), you get to save a replay of your finals match.
I've been playing abel more and more to the point where he's become a main alt versus gief who I normally play.. I like him for the speed versus geif as he's just too slow on the ground.. The one thing I'm really disliking about abel though is that most of his regular moves beyond the elbow and f+mk just aren't that good at all..
His normals are okay. Standing light kick has a lot of range on it and is very fast. Standing roundhouse isn't quite as fast but still has great range, but I would trade it in a second for Bison's standing roundhouse Most of his in-close punches are two hits so they will break armor and they have high damage output.. but I agree, the four normals of his I use on a regular basis are f+mk, c.mp (to cancel into Change of Direction), c.fp and j.mk (to combo into c.mp)
ooh forgot close heavy kick, if you are standing right over them it hits both normally and as an overhead, making it Abel's only normal overhead, much faster than wheel kick too. Its a weird one to land though and is inconsistent, good for tick throwing in to TT.
Problem with Abel is that he has most of the drawbacks of being a big character (slow normals, ginormous hitbox) without most of the benefits (chunk o' damage dealing potential). His damage is good, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't warrant the fact that 1/2 the cast can lock him down in the corner with repeated standing jabs.
Best thing about him, though, is the cancellable sweep.
I dunno man, IMO Abel hits like a truck. I thought he was slow and crappy to start with but once I figured out how to set up the tornado throw (180-220 damage!) and his ultra, he became my favorite character overnight The sweep cancel is a good mixup every now and then. sweep -> EX wheel kick usually lands once for a solid 180 damage, sweep -> roll is trouble against someone who has made throwing Abel out of a roll second nature.
I dunno man, IMO Abel hits like a truck. I thought he was slow and crappy to start with but once I figured out how to set up the tornado throw (180-220 damage!) and his ultra, he became my favorite character overnight The sweep cancel is a good mixup every now and then. sweep -> EX wheel kick usually lands once for a solid 180 damage, sweep -> roll is trouble against someone who has made throwing Abel out of a roll second nature.
c.strong -> rekkas is like 240 damage. In a bubble, that's pretty good. Tornado Throw hits pretty hard. Wheel Kick does surprisingly good damage too.
Now, compare that to every other character that can't duck a jab.
Also, I forgot to mention, Abel doesn't have the same screen control as every other big character. Gief, Sagat and Honda cover like 1/4 of the goddamn screen with a jumping normal.
EDIT:
He'd also be a fuckload better if he had a 3 frame jab.
I dunno man, IMO Abel hits like a truck. I thought he was slow and crappy to start with but once I figured out how to set up the tornado throw (180-220 damage!) and his ultra, he became my favorite character overnight The sweep cancel is a good mixup every now and then. sweep -> EX wheel kick usually lands once for a solid 180 damage, sweep -> roll is trouble against someone who has made throwing Abel out of a roll second nature.
c.strong -> rekkas is like 240 damage. In a bubble, that's pretty good. Tornado Throw hits pretty hard. Wheel Kick does surprisingly good damage too.
Now, compare that to every other character that can't duck a jab.
Also, I forgot to mention, Abel doesn't have the same screen control as every other big character. Gief, Sagat and Honda cover like 1/4 of the goddamn screen with a jumping normal.
Abel has ways out of jab traps even against the best jab in the game.. to get away from Rog you can c.short him with careful timing, EX TT or EX CoD. His air normals have ridiculous priority and can stuff basically everything but he doesn't have a cross-up on par with Honda's or Zangief's (but not many characters do).
Anyone would be better with a 3 frame jab I'd rather have an anti-air command normal like Guile's uppercut or even better, Dhalsim's knee.
I dunno man, IMO Abel hits like a truck. I thought he was slow and crappy to start with but once I figured out how to set up the tornado throw (180-220 damage!) and his ultra, he became my favorite character overnight The sweep cancel is a good mixup every now and then. sweep -> EX wheel kick usually lands once for a solid 180 damage, sweep -> roll is trouble against someone who has made throwing Abel out of a roll second nature.
c.strong -> rekkas is like 240 damage. In a bubble, that's pretty good. Tornado Throw hits pretty hard. Wheel Kick does surprisingly good damage too.
Now, compare that to every other character that can't duck a jab.
Also, I forgot to mention, Abel doesn't have the same screen control as every other big character. Gief, Sagat and Honda cover like 1/4 of the goddamn screen with a jumping normal.
Abel has ways out of jab traps even against the best jab in the game.. to get away from Rog you can c.short him with careful timing, EX TT or EX CoD. His air normals have ridiculous priority and can stuff basically everything but he doesn't have a cross-up on par with Honda's or Zangief's (but not many characters do).
Anyone would be better with a 3 frame jab I'd rather have an anti-air command normal like Guile's uppercut or even better, Dhalsim's knee.
I'm following this discussion excitedly and all of a sudden my brain stops. 3 frame, EX TT .......look's like I'm heading to Google.
I dunno man, IMO Abel hits like a truck. I thought he was slow and crappy to start with but once I figured out how to set up the tornado throw (180-220 damage!) and his ultra, he became my favorite character overnight The sweep cancel is a good mixup every now and then. sweep -> EX wheel kick usually lands once for a solid 180 damage, sweep -> roll is trouble against someone who has made throwing Abel out of a roll second nature.
c.strong -> rekkas is like 240 damage. In a bubble, that's pretty good. Tornado Throw hits pretty hard. Wheel Kick does surprisingly good damage too.
Now, compare that to every other character that can't duck a jab.
Also, I forgot to mention, Abel doesn't have the same screen control as every other big character. Gief, Sagat and Honda cover like 1/4 of the goddamn screen with a jumping normal.
Abel has ways out of jab traps even against the best jab in the game.. to get away from Rog you can c.short him with careful timing, EX TT or EX CoD. His air normals have ridiculous priority and can stuff basically everything but he doesn't have a cross-up on par with Honda's or Zangief's (but not many characters do).
Anyone would be better with a 3 frame jab I'd rather have an anti-air command normal like Guile's uppercut or even better, Dhalsim's knee.
I'm following this discussion excitedly and all of a sudden my brain stops. 3 frame, EX TT .......look's like I'm heading to Google.
3 frame jab = fastest normal attack in the game. IIRC only Balrog and Chun Li have 3 frame jabs.
EX TT = EX tornado throw. Normal tornado throw has throw invincibility so it will beat throws; EX TT has strike invincibility so it will beat any physical attack so you can interrupt block strings, throw Balrog out of rush punches, and so on.
edit: just checked shoryuken's wiki, apparently 3 frame jabs aren't as uncommon as I thought Ryu and Ken have them too among others
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ChaosHatHop, hop, hop, HA!Trick of the lightRegistered Userregular
I play Chun-Li and Gouken and love both of their ultras. For Chun, dash ultra through fireballs at full screen distance always puts a smile on my face.
You don't have to dash usually to catch fireballs, I need to get better at dash ultraing though. Would help me catch characters with smaller windows to hit (Sagat, Guile, etc).
Edit: As far as the ultra conversation, I would be perfectly fine if there was a light vacuum effect on Chun's lightning legs portion. Not enough to suck people in that I miss, but to make sure everyone juggles properly in the corner. It is bullshit that almost half the cast just falls out.
Edit 2: If a 3 frame jab is the fastest normal punch, then Chun-Li has the fastest kicks in the west with a 3 frame crouching short. (Also like three different forms of her jab are 3 frames)
I dunno man, IMO Abel hits like a truck. I thought he was slow and crappy to start with but once I figured out how to set up the tornado throw (180-220 damage!) and his ultra, he became my favorite character overnight The sweep cancel is a good mixup every now and then. sweep -> EX wheel kick usually lands once for a solid 180 damage, sweep -> roll is trouble against someone who has made throwing Abel out of a roll second nature.
c.strong -> rekkas is like 240 damage. In a bubble, that's pretty good. Tornado Throw hits pretty hard. Wheel Kick does surprisingly good damage too.
Now, compare that to every other character that can't duck a jab.
Also, I forgot to mention, Abel doesn't have the same screen control as every other big character. Gief, Sagat and Honda cover like 1/4 of the goddamn screen with a jumping normal.
Abel has ways out of jab traps even against the best jab in the game.. to get away from Rog you can c.short him with careful timing, EX TT or EX CoD. His air normals have ridiculous priority and can stuff basically everything but he doesn't have a cross-up on par with Honda's or Zangief's (but not many characters do).
Anyone would be better with a 3 frame jab I'd rather have an anti-air command normal like Guile's uppercut or even better, Dhalsim's knee.
I'm following this discussion excitedly and all of a sudden my brain stops. 3 frame, EX TT .......look's like I'm heading to Google.
3 frame jab = fastest normal attack in the game. IIRC only Balrog and Chun Li have 3 frame jabs.
EX TT = EX tornado throw. Normal tornado throw has throw invincibility so it will beat throws; EX TT has strike invincibility so it will beat any physical attack so you can interrupt block strings, throw Balrog out of rush punches, and so on.
edit: just checked shoryuken's wiki, apparently 3 frame jabs aren't as uncommon as I thought Ryu and Ken have them too among others
So with an EX TT you can pretty much grab anybody out of any attack?
3 frame jab = fastest normal attack in the game. IIRC only Balrog and Chun Li have 3 frame jabs.
EX TT = EX tornado throw. Normal tornado throw has throw invincibility so it will beat throws; EX TT has strike invincibility so it will beat any physical attack so you can interrupt block strings, throw Balrog out of rush punches, and so on.
edit: just checked shoryuken's wiki, apparently 3 frame jabs aren't as uncommon as I thought Ryu and Ken have them too among others
So with an EX TT you can pretty much grab anybody out of any attack?
Balrog has the fastest jab - 2 frame jab actually.
With EX TT, you're invincible to any attacks (except throw) on startup - remember though, that if someone decides to do a SRK while you're doing EX TT, both moves might whiff. Which is not a bad trade for you since I think you recover faster.
With normal TT, you're invincible to any throw attempts (even Gief's SPD except Fuerte's air throw) on startup.
Use jab TT if you decide to use it since it has the most range.
EX TT isn't as rangey as jab TT. It can still be thrown too.
Sagat has a goddamn 3 frame jab. I'm just gonna assume that 1/2 the cast has a 3 frame jab.
Abel's complete lack of "Get the fuck off me" moves is the main issue. At the very least, most characters have a jab to do this. Abel relies on guessing between his tornado throws and using a c.lk. Not exactly the best risk:reward going on there.
EDIT:
Boxer doesn't have a 2 frame jab. He'd beat zangief for free by just spamming the jab button if that were the case. He has a 3 frame jab. The big thing about Boxer's jab that's ridiculous is the fact that it has an insane amount of frame advantage on block and that it goes as far as most people's c.strongs.
I dunno man, IMO Abel hits like a truck. I thought he was slow and crappy to start with but once I figured out how to set up the tornado throw (180-220 damage!) and his ultra, he became my favorite character overnight The sweep cancel is a good mixup every now and then. sweep -> EX wheel kick usually lands once for a solid 180 damage, sweep -> roll is trouble against someone who has made throwing Abel out of a roll second nature.
c.strong -> rekkas is like 240 damage. In a bubble, that's pretty good. Tornado Throw hits pretty hard. Wheel Kick does surprisingly good damage too.
Now, compare that to every other character that can't duck a jab.
Also, I forgot to mention, Abel doesn't have the same screen control as every other big character. Gief, Sagat and Honda cover like 1/4 of the goddamn screen with a jumping normal.
Abel has ways out of jab traps even against the best jab in the game.. to get away from Rog you can c.short him with careful timing, EX TT or EX CoD. His air normals have ridiculous priority and can stuff basically everything but he doesn't have a cross-up on par with Honda's or Zangief's (but not many characters do).
Anyone would be better with a 3 frame jab I'd rather have an anti-air command normal like Guile's uppercut or even better, Dhalsim's knee.
I'm following this discussion excitedly and all of a sudden my brain stops. 3 frame, EX TT .......look's like I'm heading to Google.
3 frame jab = fastest normal attack in the game. IIRC only Balrog and Chun Li have 3 frame jabs.
EX TT = EX tornado throw. Normal tornado throw has throw invincibility so it will beat throws; EX TT has strike invincibility so it will beat any physical attack so you can interrupt block strings, throw Balrog out of rush punches, and so on.
edit: just checked shoryuken's wiki, apparently 3 frame jabs aren't as uncommon as I thought Ryu and Ken have them too among others
So with an EX TT you can pretty much grab anybody out of any attack?
If you are in range and they are throwable, yeah. It won't beat ultras and most supers as far as I know, but you can throw guys out of shoryu startups and that
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ChaosHatHop, hop, hop, HA!Trick of the lightRegistered Userregular
3 frame jab = fastest normal attack in the game. IIRC only Balrog and Chun Li have 3 frame jabs.
EX TT = EX tornado throw. Normal tornado throw has throw invincibility so it will beat throws; EX TT has strike invincibility so it will beat any physical attack so you can interrupt block strings, throw Balrog out of rush punches, and so on.
edit: just checked shoryuken's wiki, apparently 3 frame jabs aren't as uncommon as I thought Ryu and Ken have them too among others
So with an EX TT you can pretty much grab anybody out of any attack?
Balrog has the fastest jab - 2 frame jab actually.
With EX TT, you're invincible to any attacks (except throw) on startup - remember though, that if someone decides to do a SRK while you're doing EX TT, both moves might whiff. Which is not a bad trade for you since I think you recover faster.
With normal TT, you're invincible to any throw attempts (even Gief's SPD except Fuerte's air throw) on startup.
Use jab TT if you decide to use it since it has the most range.
3 frame jab = fastest normal attack in the game. IIRC only Balrog and Chun Li have 3 frame jabs.
EX TT = EX tornado throw. Normal tornado throw has throw invincibility so it will beat throws; EX TT has strike invincibility so it will beat any physical attack so you can interrupt block strings, throw Balrog out of rush punches, and so on.
edit: just checked shoryuken's wiki, apparently 3 frame jabs aren't as uncommon as I thought Ryu and Ken have them too among others
So with an EX TT you can pretty much grab anybody out of any attack?
Balrog has the fastest jab - 2 frame jab actually.
With EX TT, you're invincible to any attacks (except throw) on startup - remember though, that if someone decides to do a SRK while you're doing EX TT, both moves might whiff. Which is not a bad trade for you since I think you recover faster.
With normal TT, you're invincible to any throw attempts (even Gief's SPD except Fuerte's air throw) on startup.
Use jab TT if you decide to use it since it has the most range.
I dunno man, IMO Abel hits like a truck. I thought he was slow and crappy to start with but once I figured out how to set up the tornado throw (180-220 damage!) and his ultra, he became my favorite character overnight The sweep cancel is a good mixup every now and then. sweep -> EX wheel kick usually lands once for a solid 180 damage, sweep -> roll is trouble against someone who has made throwing Abel out of a roll second nature.
c.strong -> rekkas is like 240 damage. In a bubble, that's pretty good. Tornado Throw hits pretty hard. Wheel Kick does surprisingly good damage too.
Now, compare that to every other character that can't duck a jab.
Also, I forgot to mention, Abel doesn't have the same screen control as every other big character. Gief, Sagat and Honda cover like 1/4 of the goddamn screen with a jumping normal.
Abel has ways out of jab traps even against the best jab in the game.. to get away from Rog you can c.short him with careful timing, EX TT or EX CoD. His air normals have ridiculous priority and can stuff basically everything but he doesn't have a cross-up on par with Honda's or Zangief's (but not many characters do).
Anyone would be better with a 3 frame jab I'd rather have an anti-air command normal like Guile's uppercut or even better, Dhalsim's knee.
I'm following this discussion excitedly and all of a sudden my brain stops. 3 frame, EX TT .......look's like I'm heading to Google.
3 frame jab = fastest normal attack in the game. IIRC only Balrog and Chun Li have 3 frame jabs.
EX TT = EX tornado throw. Normal tornado throw has throw invincibility so it will beat throws; EX TT has strike invincibility so it will beat any physical attack so you can interrupt block strings, throw Balrog out of rush punches, and so on.
edit: just checked shoryuken's wiki, apparently 3 frame jabs aren't as uncommon as I thought Ryu and Ken have them too among others
So with an EX TT you can pretty much grab anybody out of any attack?
If you are in range and they are throwable, yeah. It won't beat ultras and most supers as far as I know, but you can throw guys out of shoryu startups and that
I always thought throws got smoked by shoryukens. It goes like normal < Throw < SRK
Right?
StokedUp on
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I always thought throws got smoked by shoryukens. It goes like normal < Throw < SRK
Right?
Normal throws will but shoryus don't become unthrowable until a few frames in. After the startup, they are active, then they are active for a few frames before you can't throw them with anything. EX tornado throw can't get hit by a shoryu on startup, so you get a bigger window to throw them in if you timed it close you'll see the flames from Ken's hand or the black smoke from Akuma's appear in mid air just before they get slammed to the ground.
I always thought throws got smoked by shoryukens. It goes like normal < Throw < SRK
Right?
SRKs are invincible to throws and EX Tornado Throws are invincible to hits so in this case both will whiff although the recovery of the Tornando throw is faster than SRK I think.
I dunno man, IMO Abel hits like a truck. I thought he was slow and crappy to start with but once I figured out how to set up the tornado throw (180-220 damage!) and his ultra, he became my favorite character overnight The sweep cancel is a good mixup every now and then. sweep -> EX wheel kick usually lands once for a solid 180 damage, sweep -> roll is trouble against someone who has made throwing Abel out of a roll second nature.
c.strong -> rekkas is like 240 damage. In a bubble, that's pretty good. Tornado Throw hits pretty hard. Wheel Kick does surprisingly good damage too.
Now, compare that to every other character that can't duck a jab.
Also, I forgot to mention, Abel doesn't have the same screen control as every other big character. Gief, Sagat and Honda cover like 1/4 of the goddamn screen with a jumping normal.
EDIT:
He'd also be a fuckload better if he had a 3 frame jab.
Abel with a superior jab would be insane, jab-jab-tornado is already a remarkably strong and simple setup, if he had a Balrog-esque jab Abel would be damn near untouchable on the ground in the right hands. His wheelkick seems to give him some good overall control and zoning options, and baiting a bad move with a light wheelkick is always entertaining. His Rekka is moderately unsafe on block but moves him pretty far and seems useful for punishing or catching certain medium-recovery pokes and attacks.
EX Wheelkick will usually stuff a meaty wakeup fireball, depending on range. Standing next to Abel on wakeup is dangerous, you can go for a high priority move or a throw but if you choose incorrectly you'll be taking more damage (tornado vs. regular throw, whiffed srk-esque move vs. high damage combo) than he will.
Jumping in on Abel on wakeup seems really safe, and your best options against it seem to be blocking, jumping away, or rolling. Its frustrating but if you're patient it isn't as bad as it seems.
I'm by no means a pro Abel player, but I've gotten the hang of him to the point that I can generally see what I do right and wrong in a match and can see a path to victory out of any situation if I play correctly. Some of his anti-air options are lacking, but his throw game makes up for this and he's more durable than average characters as well.
I always thought throws got smoked by shoryukens. It goes like normal < Throw < SRK
Right?
Normal throws will but shoryus don't become unthrowable until a few frames in. After the startup, they are active, then they are active for a few frames before you can't throw them with anything. EX tornado throw can't get hit by a shoryu on startup, so you get a bigger window to throw them in if you timed it close you'll see the flames from Ken's hand or the black smoke from Akuma's appear in mid air just before they get slammed to the ground.
EX TT can be really nice if you time it right, makes it unsafe to block and unsafe to attack. Ground-to-ground Abel has some really scary options when you're both near each other.
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Out of curiosity, I gave Ryu a whirl for a few tournaments.
I am shocked at the difference. I won three tournaments out of five I played. I did not get a super-skill-injection while I was asleep to make me a better player; I checked for needle marks. I have yet to find a single match-up where I find myself thinking "Man, I wish I wasn't Ryu for this one."
Now I find myself looking at Ken like the old jalopy out in the garage
Anyone here using Gouken?
How the play style for him?
I've been playing abel more and more to the point where he's become a main alt versus gief who I normally play.. I like him for the speed versus geif as he's just too slow on the ground.. The one thing I'm really disliking about abel though is that most of his regular moves beyond the elbow and f+mk just aren't that good at all..
I can pretty safely TK Cannon Strike an Abel on wake-up without much concern so you are right about the reversals.
You have to be secure in what you're doing. My assesment is that he's very much a reaction character. He responds pretty well to most characters attacks. His parries, if you can correctly guess where your opponent will attack, will give you an out in many cases. His fireballs, while they don't vary in speed, can be fired at three different elevations.
And if you can time it right, he can throw a person into his ultra or his rising hurricane kick.
He's good. But, to me, he requires a little bit of forethought.
I still like him though.
I don't know what it is about championship mode but I find it so much more addicting than ranked matches.
I am getting rocked by good Blankas still. The only reason I even squeek out any wins against ones that have good mixups are because I eventually get them to EX Roll and I get to reversal demon them.
I'm pretty close to switching it up to Balrog for a while just to get some confidence back in that matchup.
The only character I hate seeing on that versus screen in Blanka. Green dude can suck a fuck. Rufus and Dhalsim can also be rather frustrating at times, but Blanka just takes the fun away.
EDIT: What is the deal with CP? What's the point?
Switch - SW-3699-5063-5018
Most Goukens are pretty horrible and rely on trying to counter everything and back throws into ultras.
The scary Goukens are extremely confident and can read opponents very quickly. For instance, I got scared into using my Demon Flip --> Dive Kick because I ate two counters in a row. Now when I demon flip, I'm too scared to do the punch or kick which only leaves me with air throw or wiff to ground throw. Now he's free to use his nasty normals to punch me out of my empty jumps or throw attempts.
Another example is my normal Akuma block string of d.LP, d.LP, d.MP --> fireball. I got my fireball countered. Yes, some characters can just FA or reversal through them but it's an added fear when you get Gouken countered for some reason.
When Gouken starts making you second guess your actions, he really starts to control the match. That's when he shines. Once you get used to the match up, he's not that bad to fight against. If my opponent can read me that well, he'd probably have been able to beat me with another character. So essentially I lost to the player, not the character.
edit: backthrow into ultra is pretty managable. I think you have extra time to tech Gouken's back throw or else I'm just extra lucky against him.
Best thing about him, though, is the cancellable sweep.
His normals are okay. Standing light kick has a lot of range on it and is very fast. Standing roundhouse isn't quite as fast but still has great range, but I would trade it in a second for Bison's standing roundhouse
Okay. Makes sense. Thanks.
Switch - SW-3699-5063-5018
ooh forgot close heavy kick, if you are standing right over them it hits both normally and as an overhead, making it Abel's only normal overhead, much faster than wheel kick too. Its a weird one to land though and is inconsistent, good for tick throwing in to TT.
I dunno man, IMO Abel hits like a truck. I thought he was slow and crappy to start with but once I figured out how to set up the tornado throw (180-220 damage!) and his ultra, he became my favorite character overnight
c.strong -> rekkas is like 240 damage. In a bubble, that's pretty good. Tornado Throw hits pretty hard. Wheel Kick does surprisingly good damage too.
Now, compare that to every other character that can't duck a jab.
Also, I forgot to mention, Abel doesn't have the same screen control as every other big character. Gief, Sagat and Honda cover like 1/4 of the goddamn screen with a jumping normal.
EDIT:
He'd also be a fuckload better if he had a 3 frame jab.
Abel has ways out of jab traps even against the best jab in the game.. to get away from Rog you can c.short him with careful timing, EX TT or EX CoD. His air normals have ridiculous priority and can stuff basically everything but he doesn't have a cross-up on par with Honda's or Zangief's (but not many characters do).
Anyone would be better with a 3 frame jab
I'm following this discussion excitedly and all of a sudden my brain stops. 3 frame, EX TT .......look's like I'm heading to Google.
3 frame jab = fastest normal attack in the game. IIRC only Balrog and Chun Li have 3 frame jabs.
EX TT = EX tornado throw. Normal tornado throw has throw invincibility so it will beat throws; EX TT has strike invincibility so it will beat any physical attack so you can interrupt block strings, throw Balrog out of rush punches, and so on.
edit: just checked shoryuken's wiki, apparently 3 frame jabs aren't as uncommon as I thought
You don't have to dash usually to catch fireballs, I need to get better at dash ultraing though. Would help me catch characters with smaller windows to hit (Sagat, Guile, etc).
Edit: As far as the ultra conversation, I would be perfectly fine if there was a light vacuum effect on Chun's lightning legs portion. Not enough to suck people in that I miss, but to make sure everyone juggles properly in the corner. It is bullshit that almost half the cast just falls out.
Edit 2: If a 3 frame jab is the fastest normal punch, then Chun-Li has the fastest kicks in the west with a 3 frame crouching short. (Also like three different forms of her jab are 3 frames)
So with an EX TT you can pretty much grab anybody out of any attack?
Balrog has the fastest jab - 2 frame jab actually.
With EX TT, you're invincible to any attacks (except throw) on startup - remember though, that if someone decides to do a SRK while you're doing EX TT, both moves might whiff. Which is not a bad trade for you since I think you recover faster.
With normal TT, you're invincible to any throw attempts (even Gief's SPD except Fuerte's air throw) on startup.
Use jab TT if you decide to use it since it has the most range.
XBL Gametag: mailarde
Screen Digest LOL3RZZ
Sagat has a goddamn 3 frame jab. I'm just gonna assume that 1/2 the cast has a 3 frame jab.
Abel's complete lack of "Get the fuck off me" moves is the main issue. At the very least, most characters have a jab to do this. Abel relies on guessing between his tornado throws and using a c.lk. Not exactly the best risk:reward going on there.
EDIT:
Boxer doesn't have a 2 frame jab. He'd beat zangief for free by just spamming the jab button if that were the case. He has a 3 frame jab. The big thing about Boxer's jab that's ridiculous is the fact that it has an insane amount of frame advantage on block and that it goes as far as most people's c.strongs.
If you are in range and they are throwable, yeah. It won't beat ultras and most supers as far as I know, but you can throw guys out of shoryu startups and that
I don't see a 2 frame jab on the frame data.
Yeah, nvm - I was wrong I thought Rog's c.LP was 2 frame on startup.
XBL Gametag: mailarde
Screen Digest LOL3RZZ
Meet me at the tournament in Mass this weekend.
Or the one in Vernon next weekend.
Or the one in wallingford after that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3dDy9Xz_rs
I had no idea an input viewer had so much comedic potential
I always thought throws got smoked by shoryukens. It goes like normal < Throw < SRK
Right?
Gamertag(SSF4/MW2)StokedAidzzzSC2 ID Stoked.655
Uploaded SC2 Replays
Ohhh first time meeting real fighting game fans in person. I can't wait to get my butt kicked. PM me details!
Wait, Mass as in Massachusetts? Where/when is this? Might have to get in on that.
I bet the red Gief's thumbs got tired from making so many circles.
Normal throws will but shoryus don't become unthrowable until a few frames in. After the startup, they are active, then they are active for a few frames before you can't throw them with anything. EX tornado throw can't get hit by a shoryu on startup, so you get a bigger window to throw them in
http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=182803 Fall River, MA
http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=183924 Vernon, CT
http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=186781 Wallingford, CT
We always could use some PA presence! I will be at all 3 of these!
Generally attendance for the past few tournaments has been around 50 people.
SRKs are invincible to throws and EX Tornado Throws are invincible to hits so in this case both will whiff although the recovery of the Tornando throw is faster than SRK I think.
XBL Gametag: mailarde
Screen Digest LOL3RZZ
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=072CEE708CEA1907
Abel with a superior jab would be insane, jab-jab-tornado is already a remarkably strong and simple setup, if he had a Balrog-esque jab Abel would be damn near untouchable on the ground in the right hands. His wheelkick seems to give him some good overall control and zoning options, and baiting a bad move with a light wheelkick is always entertaining. His Rekka is moderately unsafe on block but moves him pretty far and seems useful for punishing or catching certain medium-recovery pokes and attacks.
EX Wheelkick will usually stuff a meaty wakeup fireball, depending on range. Standing next to Abel on wakeup is dangerous, you can go for a high priority move or a throw but if you choose incorrectly you'll be taking more damage (tornado vs. regular throw, whiffed srk-esque move vs. high damage combo) than he will.
Jumping in on Abel on wakeup seems really safe, and your best options against it seem to be blocking, jumping away, or rolling. Its frustrating but if you're patient it isn't as bad as it seems.
I'm by no means a pro Abel player, but I've gotten the hang of him to the point that I can generally see what I do right and wrong in a match and can see a path to victory out of any situation if I play correctly. Some of his anti-air options are lacking, but his throw game makes up for this and he's more durable than average characters as well.
EX TT can be really nice if you time it right, makes it unsafe to block and unsafe to attack. Ground-to-ground Abel has some really scary options when you're both near each other.
I wish I could be part of your social club
I don't know anyone in real life who plays Street Fighter.