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I should get new friends (Rant/Sexual/LONG)
Killgrimage
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
It all started about 9 pm on Friday. We (bf and I) had a few people scheduled to come over and hang out, as we frequently do since we like having guests. The first person to come is Anne, a friend of my roomie Becca (see my previous H/A post) who is passing through. Anne's dropping off her car at our place while Becca drives her to the airport. Her flight leaves at 5am Sat, so Anne was planning to stay up till 3am while Becca naps for ~4 hours, then they will drive there. She is pleasant and we are happy to have her stay with us for a few hours while she waits for her flight.
The next two people are Jake and Brian. Jake is part of my circle of friends and has become a kind of drinking buddy. I like him alot and while he has some social issues (mostly low self esteem, some self destructive behavior) he has never been anything but a good guest.
Brian is more of an unknown. He is part of Jake's friend circle and they have been best friends since they were children. I know that Brian is not super smart and can do dumb shit sometimes, but I don't really think too much of it, since (I figured) Jake would keep him under control.
Also, I made the mistake of making scorpion bowls for everyone. I wasn't drinking that night, but I like being a good host and whenever someone comes over, I always offer alcohol. When Jake comes over, it's pretty much expected he'll be drinking, so I always have a bottle of rum handy. Since both Jake and Brian were coming, I figured I'd make a big batch of scorpions for everyone.
Now you may think I was being pretty foolish to give alcohol to these two, but be aware that every one of my friends that knows Brian has vehemently vouched for him. Most of them know him from grade school. He's been into drugs but is now clean, except for pot. He also is a plumber, and our friends said that what Brian lacked in brains and good judgment, he made up for in spades with piping. I believed them because he knew exactly where I'd gotten my sinks from as soon as he stepped in. Also, we'd asked him to redo some of the plumbing in one of the bathrooms and he'd quoted us an excellent price. So even though I had my reservations (what with the drug history and all) I decided if my friends thought he was a good guy, so did I.
The night goes on. We are all having a good time. We get some sparklers out and hang out on the porch. Brian shows us pix of his kid (he has a baby momma). Becca goes to bed to get some shuteye before the drive at 3am. By around 1 am we are all pleasantly chatting in the living room.
Brian decides he needs a smoke (cigs). He asks Anne if she wants one too. Anne is reluctant because she is trying to quit, but decides to go outside with him on the porch to smoke one anyway. The screen is open, but since it's night time the curtains are closed. I hear quiet mumblings outside but nothing else.
After a few minutes I ask the BF to look for the cats. We don't let our cats roam the house while we are gone or asleep, so we just put them into the finished basement with their food and litter at night. I was getting tired and wanted to go to bed soon. He says okay and the first place he looks is the open screen to the porch since our kitties really like looking outside.
BF moves the curtain to the side, and from my vantage point (the couch) I get a great view of Brain's naked belly as he's FUCKING ANNE ON MY PORCH.
...D:
BF immediately closes the curtain and backs away. He got more of an eyeful then I did since they were right next to the glass. We immediately decide to not say anything so as not to embarrass Anne. A minute later they come back inside, and they either know we know, or maybe think we didn't see anything (?!?) but no one says anything. Jake, who was in the bathroom when this happened, comes back and puts in Metalacolyps. We end up watching the last few eps and then help Brian (who is passing out) upstairs to the guest room and leave him with Anne. Jake, wisely, stays downstairs. BF and I head to bed.
Within ten minutes there are unholy sounds of spanking, banging, moaning, all of it coming from Brian. He's fucking Anne again like it's going out of style. It's now 2 am.
By 3 am I am nauseous with disgust as they are STILL going at it. Becca's alarm goes off so she can take Anne to the airport. BF and I have not slept. I learn later that the reason they were fucking so long was because Brian was too inebriated to get off.
Anne and Becca leave, Brian proceeds to go downstairs and drink some more of my liquor with Jake. An almighty screaming fight between them ensues. I couldn't really hear specifics, but I think (hope?) it was Jake was pissed at Brian for his behavior as a guest. I know I was.
BF goes downstairs to mediate and make sure nothing gets broken/no one gets alcohol poisoning. 4 am, Brian comes up and drunkenly hugs me (gross), then he and Jake go upstairs to sleep. BF and I finally pass out also.
8:30 am. I wake up to Brian vomiting into my toilet, wait for him to go back to bed, and head downstairs. Becca and BF are there. Becca is fuming because Anne told her everything on the way to the airport. Turns out Anne said "no" about a million times and finally gave in to Brian after he wouldn't leave her alone. We all decide that Brian is to be expelled from the house as soon as humanly possible and never allowed back.
9:00 am. Brian gets up because he has work that day, which he will now be late for. I tell him in no uncertain terms that there isn't really a future for him here and to not come back or contact us about the plumbing. He seems taken aback and apologizes, but he doesn't admit to knowing what he did wrong. He tells us that Anne "blew him" on the porch, nothing else. Lie number one. He also tells us Anne never said no. Possible lie number 2, we only have Anne’s word on that. I tell him that even if she didn't say no, I did, implicitly, by inviting him into my home. It is not appropriate to have sex on my porch for all my neighbors to see (and yes, I have neighbors right behind my house with large windows).
Brian leaves. I suddenly feel comfortable in my house again. The rest of the weekend is uneventful.
Now, even though everyone was sworn to secrecy by Becca, I'm sure this is eventually going to come out to the rest of my friend circle that knows him. I'm not sure what's going to happen, but I'm the "newest†friend (in that they have known me for 5 years, and Brian for like 20). Maybe they will take his side and figure it's just "Brian being Brian" in which case you can expect me to drop them like dog shit. I'm still wondering how they could have let me get myself into this situation on their good recommendations. Basically, I feel like I gave Brian plenty of rope and he hung himself with it, and I feel like they maybe mislead me a bit. I dunno, I guess that’s why this is on H/A.
Tl;dr Friend of a friend fucked a girl on my porch while we were still in the house and could see it. Kicked him out. Concerned about mutual friend aftermath.
The next two people are Jake and Brian. Jake is part of my circle of friends and has become a kind of drinking buddy. I like him alot and while he has some social issues (mostly low self esteem, some self destructive behavior) he has never been anything but a good guest.
Brian is more of an unknown. He is part of Jake's friend circle and they have been best friends since they were children. I know that Brian is not super smart and can do dumb shit sometimes, but I don't really think too much of it, since (I figured) Jake would keep him under control.
Also, I made the mistake of making scorpion bowls for everyone. I wasn't drinking that night, but I like being a good host and whenever someone comes over, I always offer alcohol. When Jake comes over, it's pretty much expected he'll be drinking, so I always have a bottle of rum handy. Since both Jake and Brian were coming, I figured I'd make a big batch of scorpions for everyone.
Now you may think I was being pretty foolish to give alcohol to these two, but be aware that every one of my friends that knows Brian has vehemently vouched for him. Most of them know him from grade school. He's been into drugs but is now clean, except for pot. He also is a plumber, and our friends said that what Brian lacked in brains and good judgment, he made up for in spades with piping. I believed them because he knew exactly where I'd gotten my sinks from as soon as he stepped in. Also, we'd asked him to redo some of the plumbing in one of the bathrooms and he'd quoted us an excellent price. So even though I had my reservations (what with the drug history and all) I decided if my friends thought he was a good guy, so did I.
The night goes on. We are all having a good time. We get some sparklers out and hang out on the porch. Brian shows us pix of his kid (he has a baby momma). Becca goes to bed to get some shuteye before the drive at 3am. By around 1 am we are all pleasantly chatting in the living room.
Brian decides he needs a smoke (cigs). He asks Anne if she wants one too. Anne is reluctant because she is trying to quit, but decides to go outside with him on the porch to smoke one anyway. The screen is open, but since it's night time the curtains are closed. I hear quiet mumblings outside but nothing else.
After a few minutes I ask the BF to look for the cats. We don't let our cats roam the house while we are gone or asleep, so we just put them into the finished basement with their food and litter at night. I was getting tired and wanted to go to bed soon. He says okay and the first place he looks is the open screen to the porch since our kitties really like looking outside.
BF moves the curtain to the side, and from my vantage point (the couch) I get a great view of Brain's naked belly as he's FUCKING ANNE ON MY PORCH.
...D:
BF immediately closes the curtain and backs away. He got more of an eyeful then I did since they were right next to the glass. We immediately decide to not say anything so as not to embarrass Anne. A minute later they come back inside, and they either know we know, or maybe think we didn't see anything (?!?) but no one says anything. Jake, who was in the bathroom when this happened, comes back and puts in Metalacolyps. We end up watching the last few eps and then help Brian (who is passing out) upstairs to the guest room and leave him with Anne. Jake, wisely, stays downstairs. BF and I head to bed.
Within ten minutes there are unholy sounds of spanking, banging, moaning, all of it coming from Brian. He's fucking Anne again like it's going out of style. It's now 2 am.
By 3 am I am nauseous with disgust as they are STILL going at it. Becca's alarm goes off so she can take Anne to the airport. BF and I have not slept. I learn later that the reason they were fucking so long was because Brian was too inebriated to get off.
Anne and Becca leave, Brian proceeds to go downstairs and drink some more of my liquor with Jake. An almighty screaming fight between them ensues. I couldn't really hear specifics, but I think (hope?) it was Jake was pissed at Brian for his behavior as a guest. I know I was.
BF goes downstairs to mediate and make sure nothing gets broken/no one gets alcohol poisoning. 4 am, Brian comes up and drunkenly hugs me (gross), then he and Jake go upstairs to sleep. BF and I finally pass out also.
8:30 am. I wake up to Brian vomiting into my toilet, wait for him to go back to bed, and head downstairs. Becca and BF are there. Becca is fuming because Anne told her everything on the way to the airport. Turns out Anne said "no" about a million times and finally gave in to Brian after he wouldn't leave her alone. We all decide that Brian is to be expelled from the house as soon as humanly possible and never allowed back.
9:00 am. Brian gets up because he has work that day, which he will now be late for. I tell him in no uncertain terms that there isn't really a future for him here and to not come back or contact us about the plumbing. He seems taken aback and apologizes, but he doesn't admit to knowing what he did wrong. He tells us that Anne "blew him" on the porch, nothing else. Lie number one. He also tells us Anne never said no. Possible lie number 2, we only have Anne’s word on that. I tell him that even if she didn't say no, I did, implicitly, by inviting him into my home. It is not appropriate to have sex on my porch for all my neighbors to see (and yes, I have neighbors right behind my house with large windows).
Brian leaves. I suddenly feel comfortable in my house again. The rest of the weekend is uneventful.
Now, even though everyone was sworn to secrecy by Becca, I'm sure this is eventually going to come out to the rest of my friend circle that knows him. I'm not sure what's going to happen, but I'm the "newest†friend (in that they have known me for 5 years, and Brian for like 20). Maybe they will take his side and figure it's just "Brian being Brian" in which case you can expect me to drop them like dog shit. I'm still wondering how they could have let me get myself into this situation on their good recommendations. Basically, I feel like I gave Brian plenty of rope and he hung himself with it, and I feel like they maybe mislead me a bit. I dunno, I guess that’s why this is on H/A.
Tl;dr Friend of a friend fucked a girl on my porch while we were still in the house and could see it. Kicked him out. Concerned about mutual friend aftermath.
Killgrimage on
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That right there was one for the books. Also possibly the Strange and Embarrassing moments thread.
You did right by kick/banning Brian. Drunk or not, people need to have some respect.
Also, this Anne character is just as guilty. Whore. Perhaps a bit harsh, but come on... Guest in someones house who you don't know all that well, and you go on doing that kind of crap?
I'd avoid them both. Clearly Jake and Becca have some sort of issue with their actions, which is good. I don't think its necessary to dump the whole lot of them.
From the sounds of it, Jake already gave Brian an ear full. Not to mention he lost a potential client, and possibly more just from word of mouth alone. So Brian kinda just screwed him self (
Stay away from the both of them.
Just decide on a blanket statement like "He had drunken sex which the other party said was not consentual on my porch and then half the night in my spare room. I'm not comfortable with him visiting anymore."
Factual, non dramatic, don't go out of your way to be weird about it and likely nobody else will either.
Make it clear that he's not welcome with any mutual friends right now.
Then later, when you do invitiations to a future event, there's no need to mention it again. It should be clear that invitations you issue no longer include him. To make sure things aren't too weird, I would recommend doing another night of fun soon so people immediately can get back in the swing, minus Brian.
I only say it because she had the option to just open the curtain/door and remove herself from the situation. She had a choice, I'd damn well guarantee it. If it was just the porch thing, I could see it being a little shady/rapist like. But the fact she went up to the room and continued makes me realize she was there by choice.
Maybe I'm completely misguided but, I stand by my earlier statement. Not to downplay this Brian character at all, mind you.
Well, if Anne is to be believed, she eventually said yes, which means it's not rape. Just because he was a huge douche and kept asking her for it, doesn't mean he forced her to have sex with him. He's still a total asshole though.
Sadly, rape is a bit more complicated then that. When someone says no, that should be the end of it. It doesn't mean that once you manage to strong arm a yes out of them, everything becomes okay.
Regardless, that has very little to do with the lack of respect Brian has shown you and your boyfriend Kill. Frankly, I agree with Onceling. Just be firm, but not dramatic. Don't try and get people on your side, or get them to turn on Brian. Just say he's no longer welcome in your house, that it is a respect thing, and while you don't have any hard feelings, you are still going to stand by your convictions.
Yeah, that was my thought too. Brian doesn't sound like an especially lovely guy or anything, but calling it rape, or anything close to that, is excessive.
She could have been embarrassed about it when she told you how many times she said no, as it seems unlikely that she was completely against the idea if they went for a second round.
Was she as drunk as he was?
Anyway, I think you're too concerned about the reactions from your other friends. Wait and see, I'm sure nothing will come of it. Brian will very likely be able to see why you banned him from your house, and there's no reason to think he'll want to make some kind of fuss about it.
EDIT: I agree with Sentry, but there's no way he could have forced here into anything, especially not twice. She'd have to have been very drunk before I'd call that rape, and I don't really think the OP was going for a rape angle either.
However, from what I've been told by Becca, Anne is not emotionally in a good place and has very low self esteem, as in "hates herself." So it may be that she just didn't think that we would help her (which of course we would), or maybe she thought she deserved it, or maybe that the sex would make her feel better but it didn't. It's probably worth mentioning that the only moaning I heard was coming from Brian, not a peep was heard from Anne, which was the strangest thing since I know for a fact that girls are more vocal than boys, on average. The entire event in my guest room was also completely fruitless since neither one got off.
Ultimately, I'm inclined to think Anne is not completely blameless, but Brian is guiltier for acting "ungentlemanly" toward her, plus we know he's a liar because he said they didn't have sex on the porch when they clearly did.
P.S. They didn't use a condom and he didn't tell her he's got HPV. What a guy, huh?
Edit: She had very little to drink, so I don't think that affected her judgment.
D:D:D:D:D:
This keeps getting better and better.
Put a fence up, use biometrics.
Maybe this is being vindictive, but I'd make sure to use some of that word of mouth power I mentioned earlier. This guy sounds like a real scummer.
Anne isn't blameless either, but the emotional state thing makes a little bit more sense. He picked up on that and turned on predator mode I guarantee it. Still, it does not seem like she had any reservations about getting busy in someone elses house/patio which would make me hesitate to invite her back over for any thing else.
I wouldn't want either of those two in my house anymore. The rest can probably be played by ear.
hmm... delicious.
Also, totally forgot there was a Strange and Embarassing Moments thread here. Should I repost this there?
Wow. Just... wow.
I gotta say this was starting to feel like a story right out of Tucker Max's book, only without the hot sex and fame.
... I don't, and if you have any common sense, you'll tell someone you have it or any other similar disease/virus what hab you, before you get to knocking it out of the park with that person.
It may not be rape from a legal standpoint, but I have no problem calling it rape by my own standards. Someone saying "no" does not mean "no until you completely wear me down to saying yes by preying on my self esteem."
But hey, everyone has their own standards by which they would consider something rape. I fully admit my standard is not the legal one... either way, you are well shed of Brian... no discount on plumbing work is worth that.
In my opinion, it doesn't detract from the date rape / asshole guests so much as adding into a the whole pile of things that happened. I mean, it just takes things that one step farther (and who's to say he has/ doesn't have a particularly harmful strain?).
Regarding your actual question and not getting tied up in the seedy bits -- if your friends want to treat this like it's "par for the course" and think it's unreasonable for you to be upset and not want to invite some of these characters back, then yes, absolutely get new friends.
As far as whether it's rape, etc., that's actually for Anne to say. Regardless, emotionally messed-up people banging on your front yard is not something you should have to accept to be a member of your peer circle outside of a few select circles of hell.
Being a drunk isn't an excuse for being a douche - you're still in control, it's only an excuse.
It is for her to say, from what it sounds like she is just ashamed of it really / emo problems. Who would fuck someone just becaused they asked several times? The fact that she also went up stairs with him is coup de grace. IMO it sounds like she is just as responsible here as Brian.
Keep this girl around and I bet the drama will continue to come.
Sounds like a willing participant to me... Either way, that's a messed up combination of events, and they should both be ashamed of their behaviour.
I agree with most other people's comments. Though I do not agree this was rape...who knows if he was even turning on "predator mode". She had sex with him on the porch when SHE wasn't drunk and he was. And they went upstairs together and they'd already been having sex once, he probably wanted to "finish up" or whatever. They're both adults and I wouldn't place any "blame" for the sex...it happened and Anne is clearly embarassed about it. She may or may not have embellished a bit once she knew everyone saw and heard. If she is that conflicted with bad self esteem she might not want to come out and say "I made a really bad decision."
Becca may have played it up some(on purpose or not) when relaying what Anne said. It's clear in hindsight she didn't want it...but as much as the guy was a douche I doubt that his intention was ever to traumatize her with sex, or even to disrespect you. He may be a shitty guest because in his behavior those things happened. I think there is a big difference between something that happened as a side effect of being dumb and trying to hurt and piss people off on purpose. I think this guy falls into the first category of being dumb and ignorant, especially considering the way the OP said he acted in the morning.
If he knew Anne before hand, and knew she had weird self esteem issues and exploited them, it would be one thing. But if he met her just that night how is he supposed to know she is emotionally damaged and vulnerable? And how responsible are people for others complex emotional states?
That being said, that guy acted like an asshole and while it's no excuse I am sure he probably does feel guilty. You mentioned you didn't know how your friends could vouch for the guy...but they didn't know this was going to happen, so don't take it out on them. It is possible he doesn't normally act that way, if you go by what your friends who know him better say.
To play devil's advocate, you could cut this guy off for awhile...but if he is part of the group, you might consider forgiving him eventually and letting him earn a little bit of trust or respect back. People do have really bad nights, especially combined with alcohol. He should know his limits, that is true, but a lot of times even responsible people go a bit overboard.
I really think the sex was probably a case of drunken regret and bad judgment on Anne's part. And while she may regret it in hindsight just giving in (twice) because you're sick of saying no to a drunk person is still a decision. You're offended because the guy might've embarrassed you with your neighbors, and because they kept you up hearing sex. I think those are forgivable offense with some time passing...I doubt you'll ever be the guy's best friend though.
If you did, eventually, allow him over again for get togethers I am pretty sure he'd be fairly contrite if he has any sense at all and be on his best behavior. If he wasn't, kick him out. It'd be fair game to warn him of all of this.
Maybe it's just because I've had a lot of friends do really dumb things...but eventually I usually forgive them. I cut them off for awhile, and we try again. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. But if it does I'm generally happier than I would be otherwise.
All that being said, if you never talk to this guy again you'll probably be just as happy.
Also, something just occurred to me. If you're friends with these people for 5 years and had never met this guy before...unless he had been gone for years or whatever...I wouldn't even worry about this at all. If you've gone 5 years without having to meet or deal with him, chances are you probably won't have to deal with the guy again except maybe seeing him at some parties.
Which, if I try to comprehend it, means that as soon as they were out there, he gave her some compliments, told her how hot she was, and asked to fuck her before she left on the plane. She said no, he said c'mon, she said i dono, he said "it'll just be fun," and she said "ok." She pulls her pants down, etc. etc.
I'm not defending the guy; he sounds like an asshole and I think you're in the right to banning him from your house. Honestly, up until she left for the airport, I was like "ok, so you've got some kinky friends," but yeah, dude's rude and at least a little manipulative.
I would not be surprised if this sort of thing has happened to her before, as well. I'm not blaming the victim, as I don't think she was exactly victimized in the situation you described, but, uh, well, no women I know would do that. If it only takes her a guy asking her for a few moments if he can have unprotected sex with her, and she gives in, I wouldn't be surprised if HE got something from her. Which would serve him right.
But yeah, if she wanted to get away, she just had to come back inside -- which was about, what, 2 feet away? All she had to do was say "no, I'm going inside" and that's that. And, as you state, they both were embarrassed by it (apparently) and they both drastically toned down their story -- he says he only got a blowjob, she says she didn't want to.
If there was something fishy going on, it was after everyone tried to get sleep -- he may have pushed himself on to her again. Still, she simply could have tried to sleep in her ride's room.
Brian's a douche and probably an abusive asshole in his private life... I dunno what the fuck you'd call Anne. I don't see how you can say "no" and then go to bed with someone for seconds. She was probably embarrassed by the fact that her and Brian whored it up right in front of people they barely know. Hell. They're both embarrassed by it.
Regardless, I wouldn't believe either of them or let either around you and your SO. Your real friends shouldn't be offended because they should be just as embarrassed and offended at this as you are.
The porch nookie and loudness, yeah i get how that is rude. It just seems like everyone is overreacting about what a jerk/douche/whatever this guy is. i agree, terrible, terrible first impression, but all the hate seems a bit overboard to me.
I had a party once and a girl had sex in my bathroom, it was kinda gross b/c my bathroom isn't exactly spotless, but if someone hadn't told me i would have never known. it didn't bother me, at least it wasn't in my bed!
I mentioned in my comment that the friskiness didn't bother me, but it seems like it was more that the dude was being obnoxious in general. Fucking random women, being loud when people are trying to sleep, throwing up, etc.
Brian needs to be kicked out of the house and kicked in the nuts for pushing himself on Anne, not telling her about the HPV, puking in your bathroom, etc. If people ask why, just tell them he was being a drunken ass and you'd rather not associate with people like that.
Anne... I'd suggest some sessions with a psychiatrist or counselor. After a quick stop at a hospital/clinic for a checkup. If Brian didn't tell her about the HPV, Gods only know what else he's poked his dick into and possibly passed on to her.
I can has cheezburger, yes?
It sounds suspiciously like a lot of folks here would be hating on Brian and Anne just as hard if they'd hopped in a cab and gone back to his place. Because Anne apparently makes questionable decisions, and Brian takes advantage of people who make questionable decisions, or something like that, I guess?
Personally, the part I wouldn't be cool with is the part where they were banging on the porch in view of the neighbors. In my own place, I'm totally fine with one friend having sex with his girlfriend/fiance/wife, and I've likewise been encouraged to stay over at friends' houses with my better half and have sex if we felt like it. But that's a courtesy I extend to my friends; it's not a courtesy I extend to one total stranger banging another total stranger at 3:00 AM when I'm trying to sleep.
Now, the puking thing is different. I'm sure we've gotten too drunk before and if you're good enough friends that shouldn't matter. But, I don't think absent the "public indecency/maybe-it's-technically-not-rape" thing that the puking would have been a big deal.
EDIT: Although reading the OP again it's probably a bit ridiculous that he got next morning puking drunk at a small get together with a handful of friends instead of a real party, but anyone can forget and drink too much when they're having a good time.
Honestly I wouldn't feel a bit bad about cutting the dude off/barring him from your house. He doesn't sound like the type of person you want around and why hang out with people you don't like?
Exactly. Brian did enough shit to prove he's not a good guest, regardless of any other nitpicking that could be done over rape/not rape. Again, by the legal definition it certainly doesn't qualify as rape. However, my own personal beliefs say that if a girl says no, someone pushing her until she says yes does not qualify as consent. But again, this has almost nothing to do with the issue, which is, if the OP doesn't want Brian in her house any more (a stand I sympathize with) then he's basically SOL.
But before you lean too hard and take a line as though nobody ever does those things and it is SHOCKING and APPALLING that anybody ever does, consider for a moment that they do. And people who don't really know you aren't obligated to have an inherent understanding about what you would or would not be cool with. Sure, some of it is implied, and most people I would think, have a sense of what would or would not be acceptable. But, as it is with friends of friends, they only know you through somebody else, not directly. Misjudgments and misinterpretations happen.
I think it's fine to say, 'hey now woah now, that stuff is not cool.' but I would advise against painting people too harshly- the actions are inappropriate for the setting, but that doesn't make them bad people. Misinformed, slightly insensitive, maybe not the kind of people you like being around- but not bad. I'm not saying keep your door open, but be willing to admit that its simply because of personal differences with those people, not because there is anything inherently 'wrong' about them.
/ambassador