Note: Originally I was going to put this thread in H/A, but because of the subject matter that will almost certainly lead to a debate, I figured D&D would be a better place for it. Feel free to argue this one out.
I'm looking for vetted, empirical evidence that Jesus Christ existed. Finding information on this subject is more difficult than I thought, as everyone seems to have some kind of bias on the matter, and for many of the reports that provide cited proof that Jesus did exist, others make the counter claim that said proof is inconclusive at best. Heck, I've read two essays where people use the exact same census to claim Jesus did and didn't exist.
The best I can hope for is a verified account of the crucifiction by the Romans, written as the trial and execution took place - if the events that took place in the New Testament are true, they probably did document that a radical Jewish carpenter's movement was put down, and that the man responsible was nailed to a cross.
As I'm a little naive here, and about as far away from being a Christian scholar as you get, I could use a little help. This subject is a difficult one, but the results have a lot of potential: Jesus is unequivocally the most important figure in recorded history (feel free to argue that too), and people still can't agree whether he even
existed.
So if we did go back in time some ~2000 years, what do
you think would be going on in Jerusalem?
Posts
Apparently they did keep some pretty good records of who, at the very least, although the "for what" bits I'm not sure about.
Also, forgot to mention that I'm going to be away from the PC until 9:00 pm or so tonight, so I won't be contributing much to this thread until later on.
Seriously, you're not going to get your hands on primary documentation. Without spending time and money, you're not even going to get your hands on reliable translations or secondary sources, and even the latter would just put you back in the disputation game, with people writing to further an agenda of one kind or another. So I'm curious as to what, exactly, you want us to suggest - cheap flights to Jerusalem, perhaps? Names of reputable rabbinical and biblical scholars? Books? Because your OP sounds like you want to do some original research, and that is indeed remarkably naive.
[quote=matthew 2:11]On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh.[/quote]
Fun fact: excessive camel-riding can cause sterility and erectile dysfunction.
I'm fairly sure there's more physical evidence of the existance of Joss Whedon than either of the other two, but you won't find me worshipping him either.
Maybe a little. And he'd have to buy me breakfast.
I've heard that before, but it makes little sense...don't we have writings of Caesar himself?
Despite the fact that gazillions of human beings believe in his existence, devine or not, and the Bible being a conglomeration of a vast amount of testimonies of many many individuals who met/knew about Jesus, there will never be definitive prove.
I guess we should all just have a little faith that he was real and go from there.
I don't doubt Jesus existed, heck, it would take a LOT to conjure a story as his without some basis in truth or fact, but I doubt he was a divine being, as in the son of god. I would say I am perhaps halfway between an atheist and a Christian, as I fully believe that Jesus existed and his teachings were real and the whole NEw Testament happened, but the religions parts, like water to wine, feeding thousands with fish and bread, or the ascension probably didn't happen.
I would have fired my agent after the whole cross thing though.
I thinkthis si summed up best in The Life of Brian where he accidentlly falls into the "crazy prophet" group.
Sigged
About the OT I think what you ask is pretty much impossible. What you essentially need for such evidence is a verifiable original document describing the crucification/life of Jesus from a direct observer of somebody very close to him or her. And to quite honest such thing does not exist and if it would I think it would be considered a genuine miracle.
Also read The Word by Irving Wallace, it is a pretty good book (as in pretty enjoyable read not scientific discussion) on this what-if subject....
I read some of the posts on this board because I love PA but topics like this one DISGUST ME. you people had better shape up before you get shipped out.
it's basic history that jesus existed. He's mentioned (and worshipped) by billions of people to this day. It's a simple fact that he lived and walked the earth - the bible documents his life in better detail than almost any other individual from this time period.
Did Alexander the Great exist? How about William the Conqueror? There's less written about them than there is about Jesus. You guys don't seem to be in any hurry to dispute THEIR existence, but people insist on attacking ANYTHING christian these days simply out of spite. Jesus was greater than any of these men, and certainly a bigger influence on Western Society.
All history is based on FAITH. If you're reading a book on the past you have to have FAITH that what you're being told is true, since it happened before you were around to experience it. There's no way to know any of it actually happened, or who made it happen. You simply have to accept that there are things in the past that you might not understand. Hmm, sounds a little familiar, doesn't it? Yet some people can't accept what's right in front of their noses.
The idea that only an "elite few" know the "truth" about what happenned back then is just another atheist myth, chosen to stroke the egos of those too afraid to believe in god.
What we do have are several sources that talk about Jesus.
• Josephus, a Jewish Roman historian writing about 68 A.D., mentions Jesus in his book The War of the Jews. There are some disputes about the translation of this passage (Christians like to trump it as Josephus claiming Jesus was certainly the messiah, which is not found in the Arabic translation). However, the entire passage is written in the context of Christian beliefs. It is not a firsthand account.
• Tacitus, a Roman (I think he was some kind of magistrate) mentions Jesus around the same time as Jospheus. In a letter to the emperor, Tacitus talks about Christians and wonders what to do about them. Tacitus explicitly says that they worship a man named Jesus (or Christus) who was crucified under Pilate. (He also calls the religion a "mischevious superstition). Now, Tacitus may, like Josephus, be reporting and commenting on what Christians believe about Jesus, rather than submitting a verified account of what happened to Jesus.
• I think one of the Plinys mentions Jesus as well.
That's all I can remember from the first century. There is absolutely no surviving eyewitness accounts of Jesus' life or records of his death. If anyone says "but the gospels," I would ask them to explain why these unsigned, undated manuscripts whould be counted as eyewitness accounts: we don't know who wrote them or when they were written. (No, "The Gospel According to X" is not part of the original manuscripts, the titles were tacked on by much later church tradition).
How about Arjuna, hero of the Pandavas?
Now, I do believe Jesus existed, I just dispute your assumption that "if a lot of people believe the person existed and there is a religion about the person then they must have existed."
.......do you really believe this? I'm not arguing against Jesus's historical existence, but please. There is simply no comparison between the amount of contemporary writings on Alexander VS Jesus. And William the Conquerer? His DIRECT DESCENDANT is the current queen of England.
Jesus on the other hand was pretty much born, lived and died as a commoner. A commoner with alot of influence but a commoner nevertheless. That means historians wouldn't have noted his birth(like they would have noted the birth of a new emperor or noble). His lineage is also impossible to trace.
There isn't much empirical proof otherwise, but I think Qingu summarized what little there is pretty well. I would also add, however, that even before the gospels were written, there was a very strong oral tradition about the teachings and actions of Jesus. This, in turn, helps explains the similarities between the synoptic gospels and John.
It's a really interesting subject matter, and I would recommend taking a Historical Jesus class if you want to learn more about what Jesus probably did/did not do.
yeah but there's even MORE proof that Jesus existed! Haven't you even HEARD of the bible?it's document after document of the amazing things that Jesus did and the many people he saved. You can't deny the evidence that has been PROVED to be truth.
"Oh my gods, we have our own uber-religious guy! How cute! And he's defensive to the max!"
I'm not super religious or anything like that, but you people honestly think you're too smart for your own good. You need to learn some COMMON SENSE and know that BILLIONS of people are probably going to be smarter than some misguided people on the internet.
The Bible isn't an entirely accurate or credible source. What's not clicking here, buddy?
For some reason, many of us feel that the Bible has some bias that Jesus existed. Fancy That.