For me, I find the vector thruster control are like the salt with a good patch of pasta. You need it to taste good but in end, the sauce (gameplay/missions) may make up for it. And oh, is there some delicious sauce in FS/FS2. But it still lacks the salt that made Terminus oh so delicious. Sadly, I cannot find a copy except for something overpriced at amazon. Ce la vi.
I was going to try to give an example of a FPS that doesn't use strafe until I remembered that even Doom had strafe. Can anyone imagine playing Doom if the only direction you could move when firing your gun was forward?
I wasn't really understanding why there were so many tips to send your wing-men in first instead of you taking point. I realized very quickly on the 3rd or 4th mission - when 4 enemies are all firing at you, and your ship lacks even the most rudimentary thrusters, the worst possible thing you can do is head towards them. That would be a great tactic in most other games, when you could strafe use vector thrust to evade fire, but that tactic is simply not possible.
So my tactical choices are:
1. Send in my allies first.
2. Fly in at an angle, distracting fire, until the enemy splits up, then pick a target and engage.
And... that's it. Without vector thrusts - those are your only 2 options when engaging in a dog fight with 2 packs.
TekDragon on
0
DrakeEdgelord TrashBelow the ecliptic plane.Registered Userregular
edited January 2010
Proper energy management makes head on attacks possible. You can shunt shield strength to any quarter you deem necessary in FS2. You can boost your thruster power for extra speed, making you a tougher target to track. You can similarly boost shield power. At the beginning of a mission I'll typically have enough power to shields and weapons to keep them charged, with forward shields maxed out, and engines on full. Then I manage these systems on the fly as necessary.
Your opinion is fine, but I don't need the insults. I have no desire to play a space flight simulator without vector thrust controls. It makes me feel like I have no real control over the ship, and it severely limits dog fighting tactics and maneuverability.
The ability to move in one direction and shoot in another (aside from using the glide feature, which seems cumbersome) is a staple for many games and many space combat simulations. Maneuvering in FreeSpace 2 feels like piloting a crippled tub, and I don't enjoy it.
Try Independence War 2 if you haven't already.
I wasn't able to get it running on my computer when it was released, but it did sound pretty damn awesome. I've been thinking about trying to find it again, and it does meet all of your criteria. IW1 was pretty good times, too, but I was pretty young when that game came out, so I never got a chance to really enjoy it. I think my brother still has the CDs, I might ask him for them, I've got a Glide wrapper on this compy already.
I think IW1 was a much better game. It's much better at the thrust vectoring, firing angles, systems management, and feel of actually captaining a ship than IW2. Hell 2 of 4 weapons face rearward on your ship. But IW1 is notoriously hard to get running on modern systems.
So how does everyone handle vector thrust? I have it bound to four buttons on my joystick, left/right next to each other and up/down on the rows above/below left and right. It's still kind of cumbersome though and of course using four buttons on my joystick for thrust controls really eats up options, meaning some stuff gets shunted to the keyboard.
The joystick hat, typically. In I-War 2 I think I had forward and reverse manual thrust mapped to buttons on the base of my joystick. I hardly ever use side/rear/up views, so I map them off of that if it's the default.
For me, I find the vector thruster control are like the salt with a good patch of pasta. You need it to taste good but in end, the sauce (gameplay/missions) may make up for it. And oh, is there some delicious sauce in FS/FS2. But it still lacks the salt that made Terminus oh so delicious. Sadly, I cannot find a copy except for something overpriced at amazon. Ce la vi.
The joystick hat, typically. In I-War 2 I think I had forward and reverse manual thrust mapped to buttons on the base of my joystick. I hardly ever use side/rear/up views, so I map them off of that if it's the default.
Hmm... that's a pretty good idea, but I like being able to look around easily too (makes me feel like I'm a head in a cockpit). If only I had that Track-IR thing or something similar
I was going to try to give an example of a FPS that doesn't use strafe until I remembered that even Doom had strafe. Can anyone imagine playing Doom if the only direction you could move when firing your gun was forward?
I wasn't really understanding why there were so many tips to send your wing-men in first instead of you taking point. I realized very quickly on the 3rd or 4th mission - when 4 enemies are all firing at you, and your ship lacks even the most rudimentary thrusters, the worst possible thing you can do is head towards them. That would be a great tactic in most other games, when you could strafe use vector thrust to evade fire, but that tactic is simply not possible.
So my tactical choices are:
1. Send in my allies first.
2. Fly in at an angle, distracting fire, until the enemy splits up, then pick a target and engage.
And... that's it. Without vector thrusts - those are your only 2 options when engaging in a dog fight with 2 packs.
Learn to jink to avoid enemy fire instead of relying on strafing, that is, make quick random movements at high speeds, preferably with burners on, to shake hostiles off your tail and to keep them from hitting you as often.
Also, about power management, you can drop power from guns by... two or three notches comfortably, the Subach eats next to no power. The energy going to guns is better used elsewhere, like keeping your burners and shields charged. Now, later on you're gonna get guns where that ISN'T the case, but for general dogfighting I generally use the Subach or Mekhu (Vasudan equivalent, I it so much because it's a damn machine gun) unless I'm going up against cap ships.
Another thing to learn is taking down your targets fast, this is generally done by taking a rack of Tempests (or Furies in FS1) along with your gun of choice. Match speed with your target, get on his tail, tap decelerate every so often to make sure you STAY there, and fill his engines with gun and missile fire. He'll drop pretty quick, especially if it's a Loki. Hercs CAN'T get you off their tail, so they're pretty much free kills.
Oh, and, as soon as you start taking hits, start pounding Q. That equalizes all shield quadrants, and if you have power diverted to shields, you'll last a lot longer, due to the other three faces charging, as they're not taking fire. Even more so if you're jinking effectively.
As for tactics: Yes, that's pretty much how it works.
In every flight sim. Ever. Full stop.
With thrusting... you...
uh...
come in from behind them, wait until they break off, and pursue one target? Strafing occasionally to prevent his buddies from shooting you in the back instead of jinking?
There really aren't that many ways to initiate a dogfight duder. SOMEONE has to go in guns blazing. Once you're IN the dogfight, though, there's a lot more you can do. Even without thrust vectoring.
EDIT: I generally have my thrust vectoring bound to the hatswitch. Because I cannot think of one time where I've needed to check my six visually in any space flight sims. Or even wanted to. Target nearest ship attacking me->Target ship in reticule works just fine.
It's sometimes a bitch when I want to fire a missile while thrusting. But I've never actually had to do that, except for in Descent. But after I first did that I just went back to my keyboard layout, until I got my current HOTAS setup.
See, thrust vectors add a special bit of dimness and tactics to a dogfight. With Newtonian 3d and thrust vectors, missiles become relegated to slower targets and sneek attack while guns are used for knife fights. It also allows the tactic of going at maximum velocity past a larger ship and using thrust vectors to sidestep their weapons. Consider my left nut given when a successor to terminus gives me high definition graphics with a that Newtonian vector glory.
Dreadnaughts and other similar ships are impractical with conventional weapons aren't they? They can just be strafed flyby with faster ships that fire from outside their range and left momentum carry theism shots ahead.
Actually, I think I like thrust vector combat due to the dancing with other fighters as we orbit each other and dance up and down our respective y-axises, nimbly dodging each others blows and responding with our own to silence the other's opposition.
Thrust vectors are cool, sure, but it's kinda nuts to simply discard any game that lacks them... because that includes 90% of all good space sims.
I found that games are a lot more fun when you don't try to impose your own design onto the game's design. Most good Space sims' combat and flight are built around NOT having thrust vectoring, and therefore they're perfectly enjoyable and playable and beatable.
But hey, it's your loss, not playing any Wing Commander game, or any Freespace game, or Tachyon and so on.
DrakeEdgelord TrashBelow the ecliptic plane.Registered Userregular
edited January 2010
Yeah, I'm pretty sure I can count the space sims with thrust vectoring on one hand (games with full implementation under newtonian physics anyway).
The vast majority of space sims actually fly like WW II dogfighters, but that doesn't make them any less fun.
I know I get a big kick out of the I-War games. I wish I-War would run right, but even with a glide wrapper that game has some issues on modern systems, but I-War 2 is an excellent game in its own right. I always wanted to give Starshatter and Terminus a shot for the same reasons. X3 was a little bit of a letdown in this area, but once I saw the game as the trading/empire building sim that it is at heart I quickly got over that. Newtonian physics and thrust vectoring are totally awesome features, to be sure, but you'll be cutting out the majority of awesome games in this genre.
Thrust vectors are cool, sure, but it's kinda nuts to simply discard any game that lacks them... because that includes 90% of all good space sims.
I found that games are a lot more fun when you don't try to impose your own design onto the game's design. Most good Space sims' combat and flight are built around NOT having thrust vectoring, and therefore they're perfectly enjoyable and playable and beatable.
But hey, it's your loss, not playing any Wing Commander game, or any Freespace game, or Tachyon and so on.
WC3 and 4 (maybe Prophecy? Don't remember) and Tachyon let you activate a slide brake, letting you move in one direction while shooting in another, so you did have some options besides the head on approach.
What I meant to post here is, so, I'm finally sitting down and, dammit, going to play me some X3:TC. I bought it a long time ago on a Steam sale, and haven't looked much at it since.
So, I'm a couple hours in (just doing the Terran Military missions and incidentals as I pick them up), and a couple questions / comments spring to mind:
1. So, I've managed to go through my initial allotment of 4 Poltergeist missiles. Where in the hell do I get more? Also, screw you, trainer, who told me to fire a $3K asset as part of targeting training without providing a reload. The whole initial mission (up to getting your new Rapier ship) pays, like, $8K-$10K - which is almost enough to reload your missiles, if, you know, you could find any for sale somewhere. Good thing I found a couple idiot Teladii who were willing to pay me a couple K apiece to go merrily traipsing through a couple mostly-peaceful sectors of space, dealing with, at most, two or three Xenon Ns or Ms. At least now I've got some money in the bank.
2. As an early mission reward, Terran Command gives you a Rapier to complement your Saber. An unarmed, mostly unshielded Rapier (a single 1MJ shield system, IIRC). Oh, yeah, and the guns for it cost, like, $150K on the inside. How is this supposed to be useful? Thanks for the advice upthread on converting it straight into credits. Last time I played through, I tried to buy combat software for it and have it fight as my wingman, but that ended spectactularly poorly, since I offloaded one of my own weapons and swapped a 5MJ shield from my ship for its 1MJ shield.
3. Getting your ship repaired in a space dock is ridiculously expensive. Or, I can find a quiet area of space, leave my ship, and repair it with my little dude's laser. Is there any reason I should be paying money to repair, instead?
4. I hear there are mods for this game? Do tell.
5. Speaking of, is there a mod out there that makes damage a little more immediate? I mean, last night, I got vaped by a Xenon L and the first time I actually knew I was being hit was when I got a "5 MJ shield system damaged!" message. I was all, "What? Oh, apparently I'm down to 0% shield strength and 10% hull; I guess those shots weren't missing me after all." Something like Freespace's vector warnings / flashing lights would be nice.
6. "Ka'ak" is funny.
7. I hate not being able to save anywhere without a fee / item (which I don't think I've managed to find for sale yet). As a moderately busy adult, I dislike nearly all games with retarded saving limitations.
Dreadnaughts and other similar ships are impractical with conventional weapons aren't they? They can just be strafed flyby with faster ships that fire from outside their range and left momentum carry theism shots ahead.
Big ships always present a balance issue in any space game. IMO the way to do it "right" is to give capital ship weapons longer ranges, and allow turrets to shoot down any incoming missiles fired outside of that envelope.
In X3 for example, if you install the MARS (smart turret) mod, then missiles are frequently shot down by capital ships with active turrets. It makes larger (60+ million credit) ships more survivable against hunting groups of a handful of much cheaper corvettes (6 million credits).
In Smart's Battlecruiser UC game, cap ships had no hope of using their main weapons against faster fighters, but the turrets made up for it. The trick was to roll the axis of your ship to bring more turrets to bear on a strafing fighter. A fighter would survive a run with shields intact against two ventral and dorsal turrets alone. Turn to external view, and roll 90 degrees port or starboard during a strafe and that fighter gets turned to wreckage by all four turrets.
Thrust vectors are cool, sure, but it's kinda nuts to simply discard any game that lacks them... because that includes 90% of all good space sims.
Allegiance had it, and I consider that my 'go-to' standard for space combat. Interceptors and fighters jinxing and dodging to stay out of the line of fire while lining up shots, scout ships rotating around a capital ship while keeping their repair guns pointed at it, popping up from behind an asteroid/station, getting off some shots, then ducking back down - it just feels GOOD.
I don't expect to see any space combat games coming out in the next decade that DON'T make use of vector thrusts.
I consider Shadowgate to be one of my all-time favorite adventure games. That doesn't mean I'm such an elitist that I'd begrudge people who'd rather play something more complex than a point-and-click adventure/RPG. Last thing you'd see me doing is telling people they're morons for not appreciating 'the classics'.
TekDragon on
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DrakeEdgelord TrashBelow the ecliptic plane.Registered Userregular
Thrust vectors are cool, sure, but it's kinda nuts to simply discard any game that lacks them... because that includes 90% of all good space sims.
Allegiance had it, and I consider that my 'go-to' standard for space combat. Interceptors and fighters jinxing and dodging to stay out of the line of fire while lining up shots, scout ships rotating around a capital ship while keeping their repair guns pointed at it, popping up from behind an asteroid/station, getting off some shots, then ducking back down - it just feels GOOD.
I don't expect to see any space combat games coming out in the next decade that DON'T make use of vector thrusts.
I consider Shadowgate to be one of my all-time favorite adventure games. That doesn't mean I'm such an elitist that I'd begrudge people who'd rather play something more complex than a point-and-click adventure/RPG. Last thing you'd see me doing is telling people they're morons for not appreciating 'the classics'.
On Xbox Indies at the moment is "Space Pirates from Tomorrow." It sounds very much like an Elite 'clone'
You fly around the galaxy trading, pirating, exploring or whatever and upgrading your ship when you can afford it. There are several thousand star systems to hyperspace between.
The demo seems a bit 'action-y' but they may have just thrown you to the wolves to give you a feel for combat in the trial time, as other stuff may require more time investment that eight minutes.
On the whole it looks like a slightly less deep Elite. But that is only my impression from a single session with the demo. I might buy it later on when I top up my account with some points.
Well, yeah, of course some third party guys with major budget restraints are going to release a bunch of 'indie-style' space sims, just like they do with every genre, and many of them likely won't have vector thrusts.
I don't think Jumpgate Evolution has thrust vectors, and I think that's the biggest space combat game coming out anytime in the near future. It does have "dampener off" or whatever they call it, where you can turn off engines and shoot around all BSG style though.
Well, yeah, of course some third party guys with major budget restraints are going to release a bunch of 'indie-style' space sims, just like they do with every genre, and many of them likely won't have vector thrusts.
I'm talking about the big titles.
Prepare for Super Disappointment then. I'm not aware of any big title Space Sims in the pipe. It's pretty much the Russians/Eastern Europeans keeping the genre on life support.
I don't think Jumpgate Evolution has thrust vectors, and I think that's the biggest space combat game coming out anytime in the near future. It does have "dampener off" or whatever they call it, where you can turn off engines and shoot around all BSG style though.
That is almost acceptable.
I'll need to check the range and speed of combat with Jumpgate Evolution, because I can't see no vector thrust working well. I'm in vent talking with my buddies about how Allegiance would be without vector thrust, and no one can even wrap their heads around it.
If the majority of combat is done at long range, kind of like EVE, then I guess it would work fine.
Freelancer has some terrible thrust vector strafing stuff. Like, so slow as to be pointless. But at least you can boost beside them, cut engines, turn and fire as they pass. However I did finish the game without realising you could do that. I just chased enemies down as if I were a space plane.
Everything I've seen on Jumpgate Evolution looks like it plays more like Freelancer, but you can use a joystick. That's entirely based on videos and reading about it. I'm sure you could get a good feeling for what they are going for if you played the original Jumpgate. I mean, they are trying to appeal to a bigger audience than just the hardcore space sims fans, so I understand having a similar model to Freelancer.
Thrust vectors are cool, sure, but it's kinda nuts to simply discard any game that lacks them... because that includes 90% of all good space sims.
Allegiance had it, and I consider that my 'go-to' standard for space combat. Interceptors and fighters jinxing and dodging to stay out of the line of fire while lining up shots, scout ships rotating around a capital ship while keeping their repair guns pointed at it, popping up from behind an asteroid/station, getting off some shots, then ducking back down - it just feels GOOD.
I don't expect to see any space combat games coming out in the next decade that DON'T make use of vector thrusts.
I consider Shadowgate to be one of my all-time favorite adventure games. That doesn't mean I'm such an elitist that I'd begrudge people who'd rather play something more complex than a point-and-click adventure/RPG. Last thing you'd see me doing is telling people they're morons for not appreciating 'the classics'.
Okay that's one. Allegiance did it well, because it has the all important "I AM GOING IN THIS DIRECTION" indicator.
Also, as for space combat games not using vector thrusts, pretty sure Naumachia: Space Warfare doesn't have them (though they do boast it has a Full Newtonian flight engine).
But I for one hate Full Newtonian flight physics. "Hit your burners BUT NOT TOO HARD, because if you hit them for one split second too long you need to spin your fighter the other way so you don't hit what you were aiming at oh and we don't tell you which direction you're travelling. Have fun!"
Bonus points if it's in a free-roaming world, like Jumpgate was.
"Okay make your approach run on the gate, but you're in a fully-loaded freighter so you accelerate like shit and also DEcelerate like shit. You just got up to speed? Well now you have to turn around so you slow down enough in time to not smear yourself on the jumpgate.
Oh lord you changed your course minutely during that stage? Oh shit, son, better hit those burners because you are about to hit the side of that gate GO GO G---"
*BOOOM*
"Well there goes 8 hours of work, cause the freighter was expensive and so was the cargo! Isn't this Full Newtonian flight engine FUN?"
EDIT: The moment I have to do Goddamn math in my science-fiction space flight combat game just to get around without ending up a smear on the side of a station is the moment I drop it. If I want to do math to figure out where I'm gonna be, I'll go play Orbiter.
EDITEDIT: Yes it's not realistic. But again, if I want realistic, I'll go play Orbiter. We're flying around in spaceships with guns with interstellar travel and shit, most games are already so far into the fantastic that just a little more fantasy doesn't hurt.
Thrust vectors are cool, sure, but it's kinda nuts to simply discard any game that lacks them... because that includes 90% of all good space sims.
*BOOOM*
Isn't this Full Newtonian flight engine FUN?"
No, it's not fun at all really. Which is why Allegiance (amazing use of vector thrust), and most space games (even those without vector thrust), apply some kind of dampener effect to flight. Just because you add vector thrust doesn't mean you have to toss our the dampener.
I never got the hard-on some people get for Newtonian physics. Give me my WWII space plane any day.
I love it in a game like Independence War (1 & 2). In those games you aren't flying a fighter. You are the Captain of a mid-sized ship. The physics add a lot to the feel of "This thing is big and heavy."
When I'm fighting in those games, I don't use high speeds unless I need to GTFO of Dodge. I actually like to maneuver at lower speeds, with the computer assist turned off. I roll on my axis to maximize shields and firing arcs, and count on counter measures for anti-missile. It's a great technique for pirating around the L-Points in I-War 2, because after the fight you are really close to any loot making it easier to tag for pick up.
It's a totally different feel for combat, and I don't think it would work at all for a game like the Freespace series and definitely not for any of the Star Wars sims.
I never got the hard-on some people get for Newtonian physics. Give me my WWII space plane any day.
Here here. I like my space games like I like most of my games: slapping the laws of physics in the face and giving nature the middle finger.
EDIT: Incidentally, how's Terran Conflict these days? I got it, oh, about a year ago, but I hit that bug during the Terran campaign and I ain't touched it in nine, ten months. Any good mods come out since then?
Sorenson on
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Sir CarcassI have been shown the end of my worldRound Rock, TXRegistered Userregular
edited January 2010
I've actually never played any of the I-War games. I never came across them for sale in their heyday, or knew anyone that had them.
Posts
Salt in pasta?
Uncultured swine.
I wasn't really understanding why there were so many tips to send your wing-men in first instead of you taking point. I realized very quickly on the 3rd or 4th mission - when 4 enemies are all firing at you, and your ship lacks even the most rudimentary thrusters, the worst possible thing you can do is head towards them. That would be a great tactic in most other games, when you could strafe use vector thrust to evade fire, but that tactic is simply not possible.
So my tactical choices are:
1. Send in my allies first.
2. Fly in at an angle, distracting fire, until the enemy splits up, then pick a target and engage.
And... that's it. Without vector thrusts - those are your only 2 options when engaging in a dog fight with 2 packs.
I think IW1 was a much better game. It's much better at the thrust vectoring, firing angles, systems management, and feel of actually captaining a ship than IW2. Hell 2 of 4 weapons face rearward on your ship. But IW1 is notoriously hard to get running on modern systems.
But you can't beat an intro like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7AsRQXOUSY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kw1m2ZW1u84
Also, it's "C'est la vie."
Hmm... that's a pretty good idea, but I like being able to look around easily too (makes me feel like I'm a head in a cockpit). If only I had that Track-IR thing or something similar
Anyone else?
Learn to jink to avoid enemy fire instead of relying on strafing, that is, make quick random movements at high speeds, preferably with burners on, to shake hostiles off your tail and to keep them from hitting you as often.
Also, about power management, you can drop power from guns by... two or three notches comfortably, the Subach eats next to no power. The energy going to guns is better used elsewhere, like keeping your burners and shields charged. Now, later on you're gonna get guns where that ISN'T the case, but for general dogfighting I generally use the Subach or Mekhu (Vasudan equivalent, I
Another thing to learn is taking down your targets fast, this is generally done by taking a rack of Tempests (or Furies in FS1) along with your gun of choice. Match speed with your target, get on his tail, tap decelerate every so often to make sure you STAY there, and fill his engines with gun and missile fire. He'll drop pretty quick, especially if it's a Loki. Hercs CAN'T get you off their tail, so they're pretty much free kills.
Oh, and, as soon as you start taking hits, start pounding Q. That equalizes all shield quadrants, and if you have power diverted to shields, you'll last a lot longer, due to the other three faces charging, as they're not taking fire. Even more so if you're jinking effectively.
As for tactics: Yes, that's pretty much how it works.
In every flight sim. Ever. Full stop.
With thrusting... you...
uh...
come in from behind them, wait until they break off, and pursue one target? Strafing occasionally to prevent his buddies from shooting you in the back instead of jinking?
There really aren't that many ways to initiate a dogfight duder. SOMEONE has to go in guns blazing. Once you're IN the dogfight, though, there's a lot more you can do. Even without thrust vectoring.
The list at the bottom of this page is living proof of that. :P
EDIT: I generally have my thrust vectoring bound to the hatswitch. Because I cannot think of one time where I've needed to check my six visually in any space flight sims. Or even wanted to. Target nearest ship attacking me->Target ship in reticule works just fine.
It's sometimes a bitch when I want to fire a missile while thrusting. But I've never actually had to do that, except for in Descent. But after I first did that I just went back to my keyboard layout, until I got my current HOTAS setup.
Freespace 2
It was very very cool.
Dreadnaughts and other similar ships are impractical with conventional weapons aren't they? They can just be strafed flyby with faster ships that fire from outside their range and left momentum carry theism shots ahead.
Actually, I think I like thrust vector combat due to the dancing with other fighters as we orbit each other and dance up and down our respective y-axises, nimbly dodging each others blows and responding with our own to silence the other's opposition.
http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16534
I found that games are a lot more fun when you don't try to impose your own design onto the game's design. Most good Space sims' combat and flight are built around NOT having thrust vectoring, and therefore they're perfectly enjoyable and playable and beatable.
But hey, it's your loss, not playing any Wing Commander game, or any Freespace game, or Tachyon and so on.
The vast majority of space sims actually fly like WW II dogfighters, but that doesn't make them any less fun.
I know I get a big kick out of the I-War games. I wish I-War would run right, but even with a glide wrapper that game has some issues on modern systems, but I-War 2 is an excellent game in its own right. I always wanted to give Starshatter and Terminus a shot for the same reasons. X3 was a little bit of a letdown in this area, but once I saw the game as the trading/empire building sim that it is at heart I quickly got over that. Newtonian physics and thrust vectoring are totally awesome features, to be sure, but you'll be cutting out the majority of awesome games in this genre.
WC3 and 4 (maybe Prophecy? Don't remember) and Tachyon let you activate a slide brake, letting you move in one direction while shooting in another, so you did have some options besides the head on approach.
I don't know about that. They fly like WW2 dogfighters with the settings turned all the way towards arcade, maybe.
What I meant to post here is, so, I'm finally sitting down and, dammit, going to play me some X3:TC. I bought it a long time ago on a Steam sale, and haven't looked much at it since.
So, I'm a couple hours in (just doing the Terran Military missions and incidentals as I pick them up), and a couple questions / comments spring to mind:
1. So, I've managed to go through my initial allotment of 4 Poltergeist missiles. Where in the hell do I get more? Also, screw you, trainer, who told me to fire a $3K asset as part of targeting training without providing a reload. The whole initial mission (up to getting your new Rapier ship) pays, like, $8K-$10K - which is almost enough to reload your missiles, if, you know, you could find any for sale somewhere. Good thing I found a couple idiot Teladii who were willing to pay me a couple K apiece to go merrily traipsing through a couple mostly-peaceful sectors of space, dealing with, at most, two or three Xenon Ns or Ms. At least now I've got some money in the bank.
2. As an early mission reward, Terran Command gives you a Rapier to complement your Saber. An unarmed, mostly unshielded Rapier (a single 1MJ shield system, IIRC). Oh, yeah, and the guns for it cost, like, $150K on the inside. How is this supposed to be useful? Thanks for the advice upthread on converting it straight into credits. Last time I played through, I tried to buy combat software for it and have it fight as my wingman, but that ended spectactularly poorly, since I offloaded one of my own weapons and swapped a 5MJ shield from my ship for its 1MJ shield.
3. Getting your ship repaired in a space dock is ridiculously expensive. Or, I can find a quiet area of space, leave my ship, and repair it with my little dude's laser. Is there any reason I should be paying money to repair, instead?
4. I hear there are mods for this game? Do tell.
5. Speaking of, is there a mod out there that makes damage a little more immediate? I mean, last night, I got vaped by a Xenon L and the first time I actually knew I was being hit was when I got a "5 MJ shield system damaged!" message. I was all, "What? Oh, apparently I'm down to 0% shield strength and 10% hull; I guess those shots weren't missing me after all." Something like Freespace's vector warnings / flashing lights would be nice.
6. "Ka'ak" is funny.
7. I hate not being able to save anywhere without a fee / item (which I don't think I've managed to find for sale yet). As a moderately busy adult, I dislike nearly all games with retarded saving limitations.
Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
Wilds of Aladrion: [https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/43159014/#Comment_43159014]Ellandryn[/url]
Big ships always present a balance issue in any space game. IMO the way to do it "right" is to give capital ship weapons longer ranges, and allow turrets to shoot down any incoming missiles fired outside of that envelope.
In X3 for example, if you install the MARS (smart turret) mod, then missiles are frequently shot down by capital ships with active turrets. It makes larger (60+ million credit) ships more survivable against hunting groups of a handful of much cheaper corvettes (6 million credits).
In Smart's Battlecruiser UC game, cap ships had no hope of using their main weapons against faster fighters, but the turrets made up for it. The trick was to roll the axis of your ship to bring more turrets to bear on a strafing fighter. A fighter would survive a run with shields intact against two ventral and dorsal turrets alone. Turn to external view, and roll 90 degrees port or starboard during a strafe and that fighter gets turned to wreckage by all four turrets.
Sadly, I think the fix is more likely.
Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
Wilds of Aladrion: [https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/43159014/#Comment_43159014]Ellandryn[/url]
You fly around the galaxy trading, pirating, exploring or whatever and upgrading your ship when you can afford it. There are several thousand star systems to hyperspace between.
The demo seems a bit 'action-y' but they may have just thrown you to the wolves to give you a feel for combat in the trial time, as other stuff may require more time investment that eight minutes.
On the whole it looks like a slightly less deep Elite. But that is only my impression from a single session with the demo. I might buy it later on when I top up my account with some points.
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Well, yeah, of course some third party guys with major budget restraints are going to release a bunch of 'indie-style' space sims, just like they do with every genre, and many of them likely won't have vector thrusts.
I'm talking about the big titles.
LoL Summoner: infobrains | XBL: cwap4brains | PSN: infobrains
Prepare for Super Disappointment then. I'm not aware of any big title Space Sims in the pipe. It's pretty much the Russians/Eastern Europeans keeping the genre on life support.
That is almost acceptable.
I'll need to check the range and speed of combat with Jumpgate Evolution, because I can't see no vector thrust working well. I'm in vent talking with my buddies about how Allegiance would be without vector thrust, and no one can even wrap their heads around it.
If the majority of combat is done at long range, kind of like EVE, then I guess it would work fine.
LoL Summoner: infobrains | XBL: cwap4brains | PSN: infobrains
We just happen to be in the minority of fans in a very niche genre.
So instead of throwing the baby out with the bathwater, I takes what I can gets and measure the games quality on its own merits.
Okay that's one. Allegiance did it well, because it has the all important "I AM GOING IN THIS DIRECTION" indicator.
Also, as for space combat games not using vector thrusts, pretty sure Naumachia: Space Warfare doesn't have them (though they do boast it has a Full Newtonian flight engine).
But I for one hate Full Newtonian flight physics. "Hit your burners BUT NOT TOO HARD, because if you hit them for one split second too long you need to spin your fighter the other way so you don't hit what you were aiming at oh and we don't tell you which direction you're travelling. Have fun!"
Bonus points if it's in a free-roaming world, like Jumpgate was.
"Okay make your approach run on the gate, but you're in a fully-loaded freighter so you accelerate like shit and also DEcelerate like shit. You just got up to speed? Well now you have to turn around so you slow down enough in time to not smear yourself on the jumpgate.
Oh lord you changed your course minutely during that stage? Oh shit, son, better hit those burners because you are about to hit the side of that gate GO GO G---"
*BOOOM*
"Well there goes 8 hours of work, cause the freighter was expensive and so was the cargo! Isn't this Full Newtonian flight engine FUN?"
EDIT: The moment I have to do Goddamn math in my science-fiction space flight combat game just to get around without ending up a smear on the side of a station is the moment I drop it. If I want to do math to figure out where I'm gonna be, I'll go play Orbiter.
EDITEDIT: Yes it's not realistic. But again, if I want realistic, I'll go play Orbiter. We're flying around in spaceships with guns with interstellar travel and shit, most games are already so far into the fantastic that just a little more fantasy doesn't hurt.
But without the "THIS IS THE DIRECTION I'M TRAVELING IN" indicator, it suddenly gets really goddamn annoying.
Also the quote headers are really messing themselves up for some reason.
I am certain they were not messed up when I quoted you in my last post.
Steam Support is the worst. Seriously, the worst
Yesss let's go play some Freelancer and control with the MOUSE!
That's.... not what I meant at all. I love my joystick.
Steam Support is the worst. Seriously, the worst
I love it in a game like Independence War (1 & 2). In those games you aren't flying a fighter. You are the Captain of a mid-sized ship. The physics add a lot to the feel of "This thing is big and heavy."
When I'm fighting in those games, I don't use high speeds unless I need to GTFO of Dodge. I actually like to maneuver at lower speeds, with the computer assist turned off. I roll on my axis to maximize shields and firing arcs, and count on counter measures for anti-missile. It's a great technique for pirating around the L-Points in I-War 2, because after the fight you are really close to any loot making it easier to tag for pick up.
It's a totally different feel for combat, and I don't think it would work at all for a game like the Freespace series and definitely not for any of the Star Wars sims.
EDIT: Incidentally, how's Terran Conflict these days? I got it, oh, about a year ago, but I hit that bug during the Terran campaign and I ain't touched it in nine, ten months. Any good mods come out since then?
Steam Support is the worst. Seriously, the worst
If you've got ten extra bucks laying around some time, there are definitely worse things you could spend it on.
I-War 2 on the Atari Store.
I've also got my eye on "My Horse & Me: Riding for Gold". What would I do without the Related Games section.
Steam Support is the worst. Seriously, the worst