Hey, don't get all up in my Escalade and call it a Denali, I don't really like Hal either for as much as Geoff Johns has tried to redeem him.
There are just some lines you cross, and have to accept that doing certain things with certain characters you make them unusable for the future.
It's completely different, though! It wasn't a conscious choice. She was crazy. It wasn't a conscious decision, damn it.
What's your opinion on Hank Pym, then?
Faynor on
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
edited August 2009
It's completely fucking different, though! It wasn't a conscious choice. She was crazy.
What's your opinion on Hank Pym, then?
Hal wasn't in control of himself either. See, at some point the retcons and reasoning just doesn't matter anymore, it just makes it more stupid.
For Hank Pym reasoning, we did this earlier in the thread. But I don't care for him either. He's in a much smaller position compared to Wanda, but he would be fine being the Q to the Avengers team, appearing every now and then to give them cool gadgets. And I really didn't care for what Slott was doing with him in MA, it made me drop the book.
You know why Wanda went crazy? Because Clint was sleeping with Jan, Jan made a remark to Wanda about almost getting pregnant, and BOOM! Wanda realizes "oh, I had kids! Where are they?," Kree fall from the sky and Chaos magic is plot malleable to be super duper over all other magic. Wanda going crazy earlier in Avengers history, without having years and years to move on and have other demon spawn would have worked. The way it was done was bad, and I think Bendis knows this.
Marvel should and hopefully do realize that Wanda had to go to have the Avengers be prominent again (which Bendis has done and I mostly enjoy), and just move on with other characters. To appease the sales gods Wanda was thrown into the lava of crazy *Waka Waka*
It's completely fucking different, though! It wasn't a conscious choice. She was crazy.
What's your opinion on Hank Pym, then?
Hal wasn't in control of himself either. See, at some point the retcons and reasoning just doesn't matter anymore, it just makes it more stupid.
For Hank Pym reasoning, we did this earlier in the thread. But I don't care for him either. He's in a much smaller position compared to Wanda, but he would be fine being the Q to the Avengers team, appearing every now and then to give them cool gadgets. And I really didn't care for what Slott was doing with him in MA, it made me drop the book.
You know why Wanda went crazy? Because Clint was sleeping with Jan, Jan made a remark to Wanda about almost getting pregnant, and BOOM! Wanda realizes "oh, I had kids! Where are they?," Kree fall from the sky and Chaos magic is plot malleable to be super duper over all other magic. Wanda going crazy earlier in Avengers history, without having years and years to move on and have other demon spawn would have worked. The way it was done was bad, and I think Bendis knows this.
Marvel should and hopefully do realize that Wanda had to go to have the Avengers be prominent again (which Bendis has done and I mostly enjoy), and just move on with other characters. To appease the sales gods Wanda was thrown into the lava of crazy *Waka Waka*
Clint sleeping with Jan had nothing to do it. She had a tenuous hold on sanity, and Jan being the tipsy little floozy that she is reminded her of the fact that she had children, that she loved dearly, and now they're gone.
We're probably not going to agree on this, but I think it's silly to say "THE AVENGERS CANNOT SELL WELL IF WANDA IS ON THE TEAM."
Speaking of that, I think a "Magic Avengers" book could go far. Get Nico, Wiccan, Wanda, Doc Strange, and a few other randoms (Magik, maybe?) with a good writer on board, and let them tackle the super natural? I would read it.
I say Doc Strange because he's still got plenty of magic and Brudda Voodoo annoys me. Or Doctah Voodoo.
Whateva, mon.
Then again, I do remember some sort of magic-based event coming up the pipeline.
Clint sleeping with Jan had nothing to do it. She had a tenuous hold on sanity, and Jan being the tipsy little floozy that she is reminded her of the fact that she had children, that she loved dearly, and now they're gone.
See, I read the Avengers from Busiek's Kang War up to Bendis' run, and there was never a major mention of Wanda being messed up mentally. In fact, she was kind of getting back together with Vision, or at least hinted at in Johns run. From scans that have popped up from Byrne's West Coast Avengers run, she went crazy but then that was stopped. Just because Bendis decides "Oh, I'll make her crazy, and she always was crazy, that will totally make my opening arc rock!" does not excuse the years where she was firmly in the "sane" position. It was just a bad story.
We're probably not going to agree on this, but I think it's silly to say "THE AVENGERS CANNOT SELL WELL IF WANDA IS ON THE TEAM."
You had your caps lock on for the last bit.
That's not really what I'm saying. What I was getting at was this:
The Avengers were always behind the X-Men and Spidey in terms of sales, Marvel wanted to change that. Bendis made the team prominent again, and worthwhile. In order to do that, they built it on a really bad story that completely crapped on a character. Look at how people still LOL at Pym being a crazy wife beater, when what he did was a lot smaller than what Wanda did.
And on top of Disassembled, they have Wanda depower mutants everywhere. So not only do they take a character to a new level of stupid, they make her go one step further to be completely beyond redemption. If they just stopped at Disassembled, Wanda could be saved. House of M kind of throws that all away.
Let's look at Cassandra Cain as Batgirl. They made her from this awesome quiet fighter who was a good new part of the Bat family into a Leader of ninjas blabbermouth who turned bad "just for the hell of it." Geoff Johns was able to stop the bleeding from this character assassination in time to offer her some sort of redemption under a good writer. This is why the fans seem to be so freaked out about anything that has Cassandra in it, because they know she's on this line between "salvaged" and "completely lost," and DC is trying to do everything it can to push her into that "lost" position so Babs can come back and be Batgirl again, so Alex Ross can be happy again.
If Johns hadn't done that, and let DC continue to ruin her, she would have been beyond saving.
Marvel, when given the choice to rehab Wanda or push her down some more stairs, chose the latter option. You can't have it both ways and say "We've used you up to get us this far and beat you like a horse in the process, but now we want to make you good again, hugs and kiss xoxo Marvel"
Where Wanda is now, a powerless gypsy somewhere in Easter Europe having sex with American archers is fine. She wasn't killed off, but she's in a point now where she's no longer on the table.
Speaking of that, I think a "Magic Avengers" book could go far. Get Nico, Wiccan, Wanda, Doc Strange, and a few other randoms (Magik, maybe?) with a good writer on board, and let them tackle the super natural? I would read it.
I say Doc Strange because he's still got plenty of magic and Brudda Voodoo annoys me. Or Doctah Voodoo.
Whateva, mon.
Then again, I do remember some sort of magic-based event coming up the pipeline.
There are no words to describe how hard I would buy this book.
Jennifer Kale is a magician, and she was actually possessed by Dormammu in Marvel Zombies.
I personally don't think a team of magicians can work unless they all have distinct styles of magic, such that each team member is indispensable, and magic's ability to do anything without clear boundaries makes that very hard.
But seriously, groups of magicians working together is pretty common. That's the one thing that's cool is that while traditions vary, magic itself is a universal force. They can study it together, explore the higher planes together, perform group rituals and summonings (and banishings), etc. There's no need to make any of them indispensable, since that's really nichy and annoying, especially when there are ways to incorporate groups without resorting to tricks.
It's disturbing what I know about magic. Also, it'd be a fun book because most fictional magicians are aloof assholes, and I'd dare say that's true with Marvel's magicians save for the kids, Wiccan and Nico. But Strange, McNee, Warlock, et al. share that because it's been a motif of the magician/sorceror archetype for ... about the entire existence of humanity.
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143999Tellin' yanot askin' ya, not pleadin' with yaRegistered Userregular
edited August 2009
I don't know how you'd get from theory to practice, but I'd like to see a book do for ritual magic in the MU what IIF has done for its particular flavor of mystic martial arts.
The latest version of Warlock uses "Quantum magic" and can manipulate energy; create force fields; teleport; travel faster than light and detect wormholes and other irregularities in space.
Honestly, I don't know much about it and just accept it as fact. I do recall him mentioning a few times now that his abilities are currently "esoteric in nature".
Oh, I know what his name is - Marvel's just randomly changed it in his last mini-series to where he was introducing himself as "Daimon Hellstorm." My big collection is old 70's horror and supernatural comics, and that annoyed me. But any magic team in the Marvel universe needs him. I really liked his recent New Avengers appearance; not so much in Heaven's on Fire.
Hensler on
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143999Tellin' yanot askin' ya, not pleadin' with yaRegistered Userregular
The latest version of Warlock uses "Quantum magic" and can manipulate energy; create force fields; teleport; travel faster than light and detect wormholes and other irregularities in space.
Honestly, I don't know much about it and just accept it as fact. I do recall him mentioning a few times now that his abilities are currently "esoteric in nature".
Yeah, I saw that. I guess I just don't get it yet. I've always parsed magic and cosmic as two different things in the MU. Not so much that, say, Dr. Strange would be prohibited by the laws of either or both from picking up and using the Quantum Bands, but Warlock himself has always struck me as the kind of character that would find magic too "different" to not be "inferior".
I think they've mentioned that Warlock's new abilities would tie in to a planned Magic event in future, but I have no idea if that's still on the cards or when it's likely to come.
Magic is the same throughout the universe; something which was firmly established in Secret Invasion and War of Kings. And Adam Warlock now practices magic just like the alien mystics did (like the one from the Imperial Guard he fought in GoG) and like they do on Earth. But that would be really cool, actually, to have an alien mystic with their own tradition, as opposed to the Earth ones who mostly fall under the European hermeticism, the mish-mash of English and pagan magic depicted in Captain Britain (which has nothing on the assorted hodge-podge Chinese practices like in IIM), or to an extent some depictions of Native American arts. That's actually why I like Doc Voodoo so much, because I'm kind of bored of seeing the world saved by white hermetics.
Then again, that goes back to the human exceptionalism that made Earth (England! I mean, come on... England!) the source/home of all magic in the universe. The funny thing is that hermeticism was pretty much the singular functioning tradition forever, and the more you see things like Doc Voodoo the more chance there is for any and all traditions to come out of the woodwork, which is arguably something else that has come to pass in Sacred Invasion with the expansion of multi-pantheon intrigue. Since magic does seem to interact pretty well with deities... Oh, crap.
Now you've gone and done it. I'm going to have to think some more about this.
Crimsondude on
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143999Tellin' yanot askin' ya, not pleadin' with yaRegistered Userregular
edited August 2009
Of course, "Quantum Magic" could just be what Adam Warlock believes, which would tie back into Faynor and my points well enough (Warlock's personality requires a cosmic-themed magical theme to be "good enough" for him to bother with, and that Warlock would argue that point with his magical betters).
Magic is the same throughout the universe; something which was firmly established in Secret Invasion and War of Kings. And Adam Warlock now practices magic just like the alien mystics did (like the one from the Imperial Guard he fought in GoG) and like they do on Earth. But that would be really cool, actually, to have an alien mystic with their own tradition, as opposed to the Earth ones who mostly fall under the European hermeticism, the mish-mash of English and pagan magic depicted in Captain Britain (which has nothing on the assorted hodge-podge Chinese practices like in IIM), or to an extent some depictions of Native American arts. That's actually why I like Doc Voodoo so much, because I'm kind of bored of seeing the world saved by white hermetics.
Then again, that goes back to the human exceptionalism that made Earth (England! I mean, come on... England!) the source/home of all magic in the universe. The funny thing is that hermeticism was pretty much the singular functioning tradition forever, and the more you see things like Doc Voodoo the more chance there is for any and all traditions to come out of the woodwork, which is arguably something else that has come to pass in Sacred Invasion with the expansion of multi-pantheon intrigue. Since magic does seem to interact pretty well with deities... Oh, crap.
Now you've gone and done it. I'm going to have to think some more about this.
Actually, that's got me thinking... why is the Sorcerer Supreme always from Earth? If the Kree, and Shi'ar have magic users, does that mean they have a Sorcerer Surpeme, too or that someone from another world could become the SS?
Magic is the same throughout the universe; something which was firmly established in Secret Invasion and War of Kings. And Adam Warlock now practices magic just like the alien mystics did (like the one from the Imperial Guard he fought in GoG) and like they do on Earth. But that would be really cool, actually, to have an alien mystic with their own tradition, as opposed to the Earth ones who mostly fall under the European hermeticism, the mish-mash of English and pagan magic depicted in Captain Britain (which has nothing on the assorted hodge-podge Chinese practices like in IIM), or to an extent some depictions of Native American arts. That's actually why I like Doc Voodoo so much, because I'm kind of bored of seeing the world saved by white hermetics.
Then again, that goes back to the human exceptionalism that made Earth (England! I mean, come on... England!) the source/home of all magic in the universe. The funny thing is that hermeticism was pretty much the singular functioning tradition forever, and the more you see things like Doc Voodoo the more chance there is for any and all traditions to come out of the woodwork, which is arguably something else that has come to pass in Sacred Invasion with the expansion of multi-pantheon intrigue. Since magic does seem to interact pretty well with deities... Oh, crap.
Now you've gone and done it. I'm going to have to think some more about this.
Actually, that's got me thinking... why is the Sorcerer Supreme always from Earth? If the Kree, and Shi'ar have magic users, does that mean they have a Sorcerer Surpeme, too or that someone from another world could become the SS?
There is only one Sorcerer Supreme. There have been ones from different races in the past in alternate futures/universes (I think a guy that's Fin Fang Foom's race, even).
Okay, the only stories I can think of (What If, 2099, MC2) have always had human Sorcerer Supremes. I must have missed that one.
Earth is special. In a lot of ways.
I mean, it's an editorial thing in reality, but within Marvel's content the Earth is just the focal point for a lot of stuff.
In terms of magic, every planet has gods and magic, but for whatever reason Earth's is more powerful, more central. Of course, stories have added stuff to this (e.g. that we're the most super-powered, that Franklin Richards was the next Galactus, that a Celestial Egg lay in the core) but many of those stories have fluctuated out of continuity.
You know I just noticed something on Marvels solicit page, I don't see the "The List: Avengers" one-shot anywhere. I thought it was supposed to start the whole thing but the X-men one is first. In fact, 3 of them were supposed to come out next month but I only see 1 so we're missing another one. Maybe Marvel just hasn't updated their page?
From what Quesada's been hinting at, and what Bendis appears to be setting up, is that the next Marvel 'event' is going to be magic based. And supposedly, Spider-man is going to figure prominently in all this. Its probably too much to ask that Quesada is going to do a re-retcon for OMD.
*sigh* I wish Quesada hadn't pissed off Straczynski. As fun as Bendis's events have been, I'd love to see an event directed by Straczynski. He was doing such a great job with the Thor mythos, which is pretty much magic based.
I might actually pick up some Brave and the Bold that Straczynski will be writing.
There are different classes of "events" though... I mean Messiah CompleX and Messiah War were "events", but they weren't really the same as line-spanning events like Civil War or Secret Invasion.
I imagine a Magic event would be more like the Annihilation events, it's own book but really only impacting the directly related books.
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spookymuffin( ° ʖ ° )Puyallup WA Registered Userregular
edited August 2009
The magic event has to tie in with the Sorcerer Supreme thing, in some way. Strange has to get back the mantle.
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Yeah, it's Marvel, so I think that Strange WILL get the Eye back, but I don't think he SHOULD be Sorc Supreme again. Putting him in a new role will actually send the character somewhere new, and give Voodoo a chance to shine. The new Sorcerer Supreme is the 2nd best thing to come out of Secret Invasion.
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It's completely different, though! It wasn't a conscious choice. She was crazy. It wasn't a conscious decision, damn it.
What's your opinion on Hank Pym, then?
Hal wasn't in control of himself either. See, at some point the retcons and reasoning just doesn't matter anymore, it just makes it more stupid.
For Hank Pym reasoning, we did this earlier in the thread. But I don't care for him either. He's in a much smaller position compared to Wanda, but he would be fine being the Q to the Avengers team, appearing every now and then to give them cool gadgets. And I really didn't care for what Slott was doing with him in MA, it made me drop the book.
You know why Wanda went crazy? Because Clint was sleeping with Jan, Jan made a remark to Wanda about almost getting pregnant, and BOOM! Wanda realizes "oh, I had kids! Where are they?," Kree fall from the sky and Chaos magic is plot malleable to be super duper over all other magic. Wanda going crazy earlier in Avengers history, without having years and years to move on and have other demon spawn would have worked. The way it was done was bad, and I think Bendis knows this.
Marvel should and hopefully do realize that Wanda had to go to have the Avengers be prominent again (which Bendis has done and I mostly enjoy), and just move on with other characters. To appease the sales gods Wanda was thrown into the lava of crazy *Waka Waka*
Clint sleeping with Jan had nothing to do it. She had a tenuous hold on sanity, and Jan being the tipsy little floozy that she is reminded her of the fact that she had children, that she loved dearly, and now they're gone.
We're probably not going to agree on this, but I think it's silly to say "THE AVENGERS CANNOT SELL WELL IF WANDA IS ON THE TEAM."
I say Doc Strange because he's still got plenty of magic and Brudda Voodoo annoys me. Or Doctah Voodoo.
Whateva, mon.
Then again, I do remember some sort of magic-based event coming up the pipeline.
I would totally buy Mystic Avengers almost regardless of the cast, even if it included Adam Warlock, because I like the idea.
See, I read the Avengers from Busiek's Kang War up to Bendis' run, and there was never a major mention of Wanda being messed up mentally. In fact, she was kind of getting back together with Vision, or at least hinted at in Johns run. From scans that have popped up from Byrne's West Coast Avengers run, she went crazy but then that was stopped. Just because Bendis decides "Oh, I'll make her crazy, and she always was crazy, that will totally make my opening arc rock!" does not excuse the years where she was firmly in the "sane" position. It was just a bad story.
You had your caps lock on for the last bit.
That's not really what I'm saying. What I was getting at was this:
The Avengers were always behind the X-Men and Spidey in terms of sales, Marvel wanted to change that. Bendis made the team prominent again, and worthwhile. In order to do that, they built it on a really bad story that completely crapped on a character. Look at how people still LOL at Pym being a crazy wife beater, when what he did was a lot smaller than what Wanda did.
And on top of Disassembled, they have Wanda depower mutants everywhere. So not only do they take a character to a new level of stupid, they make her go one step further to be completely beyond redemption. If they just stopped at Disassembled, Wanda could be saved. House of M kind of throws that all away.
Let's look at Cassandra Cain as Batgirl. They made her from this awesome quiet fighter who was a good new part of the Bat family into a Leader of ninjas blabbermouth who turned bad "just for the hell of it." Geoff Johns was able to stop the bleeding from this character assassination in time to offer her some sort of redemption under a good writer. This is why the fans seem to be so freaked out about anything that has Cassandra in it, because they know she's on this line between "salvaged" and "completely lost," and DC is trying to do everything it can to push her into that "lost" position so Babs can come back and be Batgirl again, so Alex Ross can be happy again.
If Johns hadn't done that, and let DC continue to ruin her, she would have been beyond saving.
Marvel, when given the choice to rehab Wanda or push her down some more stairs, chose the latter option. You can't have it both ways and say "We've used you up to get us this far and beat you like a horse in the process, but now we want to make you good again, hugs and kiss xoxo Marvel"
Where Wanda is now, a powerless gypsy somewhere in Easter Europe having sex with American archers is fine. She wasn't killed off, but she's in a point now where she's no longer on the table.
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That's pretty distinct even from fighting Dormammu, et al.
I personally don't think a team of magicians can work unless they all have distinct styles of magic, such that each team member is indispensable, and magic's ability to do anything without clear boundaries makes that very hard.
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But seriously, groups of magicians working together is pretty common. That's the one thing that's cool is that while traditions vary, magic itself is a universal force. They can study it together, explore the higher planes together, perform group rituals and summonings (and banishings), etc. There's no need to make any of them indispensable, since that's really nichy and annoying, especially when there are ways to incorporate groups without resorting to tricks.
It's disturbing what I know about magic. Also, it'd be a fun book because most fictional magicians are aloof assholes, and I'd dare say that's true with Marvel's magicians save for the kids, Wiccan and Nico. But Strange, McNee, Warlock, et al. share that because it's been a motif of the magician/sorceror archetype for ... about the entire existence of humanity.
The disagreements Strange and Warlock would have
(Strange would always be right)
I'm not as well-read on his MO as I guess I should be, but I always thought his whole deal was less a magical one and more a "cosmic power" thing.
Honestly, I don't know much about it and just accept it as fact. I do recall him mentioning a few times now that his abilities are currently "esoteric in nature".
Yeah, I saw that. I guess I just don't get it yet. I've always parsed magic and cosmic as two different things in the MU. Not so much that, say, Dr. Strange would be prohibited by the laws of either or both from picking up and using the Quantum Bands, but Warlock himself has always struck me as the kind of character that would find magic too "different" to not be "inferior".
I think they've mentioned that Warlock's new abilities would tie in to a planned Magic event in future, but I have no idea if that's still on the cards or when it's likely to come.
Magic is the same throughout the universe; something which was firmly established in Secret Invasion and War of Kings. And Adam Warlock now practices magic just like the alien mystics did (like the one from the Imperial Guard he fought in GoG) and like they do on Earth. But that would be really cool, actually, to have an alien mystic with their own tradition, as opposed to the Earth ones who mostly fall under the European hermeticism, the mish-mash of English and pagan magic depicted in Captain Britain (which has nothing on the assorted hodge-podge Chinese practices like in IIM), or to an extent some depictions of Native American arts. That's actually why I like Doc Voodoo so much, because I'm kind of bored of seeing the world saved by white hermetics.
Then again, that goes back to the human exceptionalism that made Earth (England! I mean, come on... England!) the source/home of all magic in the universe. The funny thing is that hermeticism was pretty much the singular functioning tradition forever, and the more you see things like Doc Voodoo the more chance there is for any and all traditions to come out of the woodwork, which is arguably something else that has come to pass in Sacred Invasion with the expansion of multi-pantheon intrigue. Since magic does seem to interact pretty well with deities... Oh, crap.
Now you've gone and done it. I'm going to have to think some more about this.
Actually, that's got me thinking... why is the Sorcerer Supreme always from Earth? If the Kree, and Shi'ar have magic users, does that mean they have a Sorcerer Surpeme, too or that someone from another world could become the SS?
There is only one Sorcerer Supreme. There have been ones from different races in the past in alternate futures/universes (I think a guy that's Fin Fang Foom's race, even).
Earth is special. In a lot of ways.
I mean, it's an editorial thing in reality, but within Marvel's content the Earth is just the focal point for a lot of stuff.
In terms of magic, every planet has gods and magic, but for whatever reason Earth's is more powerful, more central. Of course, stories have added stuff to this (e.g. that we're the most super-powered, that Franklin Richards was the next Galactus, that a Celestial Egg lay in the core) but many of those stories have fluctuated out of continuity.
hahaha
You know how I was talking about wanting alien traditions?
That's exactly one of them!
Wow. I'm slow.
*sigh* I wish Quesada hadn't pissed off Straczynski. As fun as Bendis's events have been, I'd love to see an event directed by Straczynski. He was doing such a great job with the Thor mythos, which is pretty much magic based.
I might actually pick up some Brave and the Bold that Straczynski will be writing.
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Regardless, Dark Reign won't be ending for the foreseeable future. Unless after The List it's suddenly over.
I imagine a Magic event would be more like the Annihilation events, it's own book but really only impacting the directly related books.
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Dark Reign won't make it to spring. The List is the climax.
Fuck. That. Shit.
I mean, I actually read his ongoing way back in the day and I still can't tell you why he matters.
What's the first?