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The (insert nationality here) Dream
Gosling
Looking Up Soccer In Mongolia Right Now, ProbablyWatertown, WIRegistered User regular
Looking Up Soccer In Mongolia Right Now, ProbablyWatertown, WIRegistered User regular
So I'm pretty sure that most of you are familiar with the concept of the American Dream. The exact interpretation is a bit up for debate, but it always seems to come back to the same basic threads: business success, making one's fortune, 'where the streets are paved with gold'.
Problem is, a lot of Americans tend to mistake that for some universal dream everybody has, and it's the American Dream because America is the place to achieve it. Which, as this Yahoo article shows, is not quite accurate. The author goes to Finland and finds that the Finnish Dream is more along the lines of a quiet modestly-sized cabin on the lake, without a lot of materialism attached like you see in America.
Nothing I didn't suspect already, but it does lead to a couple questions:
A: What is the equivalent national 'Dream' elsewhere? (If you happen to know.)
B: Why do you think different countries have different dreams?
Problem is, a lot of Americans tend to mistake that for some universal dream everybody has, and it's the American Dream because America is the place to achieve it. Which, as this Yahoo article shows, is not quite accurate. The author goes to Finland and finds that the Finnish Dream is more along the lines of a quiet modestly-sized cabin on the lake, without a lot of materialism attached like you see in America.
Nothing I didn't suspect already, but it does lead to a couple questions:
A: What is the equivalent national 'Dream' elsewhere? (If you happen to know.)
B: Why do you think different countries have different dreams?
I have a new soccer blog The Minnow Tank. Reading it psychically kicks Sepp Blatter in the bean bag.
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Secondly, history, culture, religious influence, that kind of thing. My nation was founded basically in protest against religious persecution, but the dominant religion here was pretty... severe. So while we are relatively OK with people doing their own thing, we also expect them to conform a lot.
This line from the article sort of says it all:
They want quality of life and peace of mind. I'd say that's pretty universal.
I agree - it's all about quality of life and peace of mind, and for different people there are different ways to achieve that.
Somewhere along the way the American version of that became "A house in the suburbs with a lawn, a car, and a couple kids."
In America, if you have no money, you're boned. People in the lower class, or even the middle class, are often a minor form of cancer away from bankruptcy. Or a lay-off away from poverty, even homelessness. In the US, having enough money is critical not just to comfort but often to survival. Because it's so critical, we fetishize it, almost like we do with sex. We hold it up on a pedestal, and dream of having more of it than we could possibly need.
Two words: "starvation mode."
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
- Work about 3-4 hours per day doing something I love. No more, no less.
- Have a good-sized house containing 4 bedrooms, 3 bathrooms, a home theater, an office, and a workout room.
- Own a Porsche, a BMW M3, and some non-descript SUV.
- Travel a couple times per year. Once with the kids, once without.
- Have enough time to finally get good at the guitar.
- Populate the aforementioned home theater with some seriously fucking awesome equipment.
I figure I need a family income of about $200k/year to realistically get there. It's a stretch, but not beyond the realm of possibility. Any money beyond that would probably just go into savings and investments. Though if I was able to save up millions, I would probably hire a bunch of talent and finally make a decent video game.
What's the point?
'Course, my perspective may be biased. What you call a "good-sized house", I would probably refer to as a "villa". Or possibly even a "small mansion".
I currently live in about 3 1/2 rooms and am perfectly fine. My dream would probably involve much the same setting, except with an internet connection that doesn't act up at regular intervals.
I'm totally with you here, though.
Okay yeah, I'd have to say I'd probably use millions for this too. Free roaming Batman game, here we come.
And I'd finance HBO's A Song of Ice and Fire project so ALL the books will be made to an TV series.
I'd love to have more money, but whenever things have gotten tight, something has come through for us somehow.
I'd love to have more time to pick martial arts back up, but that's something I can do when the boys are older. I don't have anything I consider worth tossing out to make that happen.
I'd love to get to see our families more often -- we're in Alberta, and my wife's family is in New Mexico while mine is in California -- but even if we had more money, a plane trip with two young boys is brutal. And moving back to the states would mean leaving the dream job.
We've pretty much got everything we need.
We have two kids. So one bedroom for us, one for each child. One to serve as a spare bedroom, because we often have family come and visit. There's the bedrooms.
One bathroom for the wife and I, one for each kid. Because teenage kids use up a lot of fucking space.
I would like a dedicated room for my home theater so I can properly sound-proof it, allowing me to crank it the fuck up when watching movies.
I would like a room for working out so I could be in shape without the hassle of having to drive across town to a gym.
And I would like an office to go to when I write, or have to do work, and also a place to store my books (of which I have a lot).
I would like a Porsche 996 because it is fast and awesome. I would like a 3-series for driving around town with the family (maybe I should get a 5-series for the added comfort when the kids get older). And an SUV for when I need to haul larger things, or go on roadtrips.
Now, I don't need all of that stuff, or any of that stuff. I currently have a small fraction of all that, and I am very happy. But there are times when I think, "Wow, I wish I could turn up this movie so I can hear it like it was meant to be heard," or "Gee, I wish I didn't have to step over my mom in the living room when she came to visit," or "Man, I need more room for all these books." And if I had the money to address these niggling wishes, I would do so. Why not?
Really though, my dream house needs to have a bay window, a nice staircase, and a large, family kitchen. That's it, really. Other than that, I'm not picky.
I'd like to be doing a job I love, and I'd like to be able to, more or less, make my own schedule. Or at least have something with a flexible schedule.
But I mean, that's more the upgraded version of where I am now. I live alone and make enough to be not worry about bills and I save a bit every month. I really like my apartment. I have a job where although I work 5 days a week, I have some flexibility on when I can come in.
I never finish anyth
Because it's pointlessly extravagant?
OK, maybe not compared to others, but... Ah, I don't know. I just don't see the point of big houses. Maybe once I've accumulated more material possessions and/or a family.
I'm assuming my children will not shower together.
I mean, they could obviously take turns in the morning. And this is likely what will happen in the non-dream version of my life. But if I'm eliminating some of my inconveniences, why not eliminate some of theirs?
And when I have company staying over, the extra bathroom would become doubly nice. Right now, four grown-ups and two young children trying to get ready in two bathrooms is a pain. Four grown-ups and two teens will be a nightmare.
No, it's pragmatically extravagant. Pointlessly extravagant would be having a 12 bedroom house with two kitchens an a five car garage to hold all my exotic cars.
Everyone lives with a certain amount of extravagance. You do, too. Know how I can tell? You're posting on the internet. Asking why my arbitrary level of extravagance is greater than your arbitrary level of extravagance is sort of silly. They differ because I value different things than you.
Really? You want an apartment and exactly enough money to buy the bare essentials, and nothing else?
What do you enjoy doing in your spare time?
The Russian dream was a light rain and a short line for bread.
I'll actually read the thread later: study time is now!
When you say "exactly enough money", I sense a poorly veiled attempt to trap me into some sort of, I don't know, what do they call them? A "gotcha"? "Oh hoh hoh, you just said you want exactly the amount of money to pay the bills, but now I see you reaching for that yoghurt which costs 50p*, YOU LIAR LIAR LIAR".
You mean when I'm not in the apartment? That'd be the working hours. And then I guess I'd stop by at the grocery store on the way home.
Yours costs quite a bit and takes up lots of space and plumbing in your own home for only (what, granted, I deem to be) a very minor benefit. Mine takes up hardly any space at all, other than some wires and a couple of machines for the benefit of being able to quickly communicate with others, which is a somewhat larger benefit (especially since I have... issues... with telephones).
No, my dream of pointless extravagance would living where I live now, except it would be in the second Lunar Colony (since the first Lunar Colony will likely have some issues that need fixing). :P
Wasn't so much a trap, but "enough money to pay the bills" is pretty vague. Your "bills" could be bare essentials, or they could be the monthly payments on your fleet of Jaguars.
That said, I'm always skeptical when someone tells me that their dream is having just enough money to get by. Because, frankly, that's a shitty dream. What are you passionate about? Do you love playing an instrument? If so, wouldn't you like to have an awesome instrument to play on? Do you love books? Then wouldn't you like to have an extensive library of great books? Do you love to fish? Then wouldn't you like to have a lifestyle that granted you ample time for fishing? Do you have career aspirations? Where do you want to work?
Because right now, it sounds like your dream is to come home from your job as assistant manager at Target and see what's up with the current crop of reality shows, or something. And I suspect there's more to you than that.
i'd feel bad if i was worse than that, you can't go backwards in generations in life quality, can you? no that would be dumb
then again that all assumes i ever have a family
which assumes i get a wife
which assumes i get a girlfriend
which assumes a lot of things
Does any nation consider travel a part of the national dream?
I live in an area where procuring such a house isn't terribly difficult if you have a little money. We have a lot of large houses on good-sized lots. Though honestly, if I had the money I would create something of my own design, because I like architecture.
And anyway, your bang-for-the-buck argument is still arbitrary. I don't argue that having a computer buys you more convenience than adding a third bathroom. But it's still a matter of degree. And someone from a third-world country would say that your ability to chat with people on the intarwebs was pretty damned extravagant, when they would love to have enough money to buy food on demand.
I don't think you have a moral obligation to offer your kids as least as much as you were offered as a child.
I think you have an obligation to provide them with as much as you can to guarantee they will have a chance to realize their own dreams.
But it's not like if your parents gave you a Porsche as your first car you are a terrible failure for only giving them an old VW bug. It's more important that you provide them a happy childhood than that you lavish them with material possessions.
It seems reasonable that anyone would want to achieve as much or more than their parents (psychology). I suppose that could play a role in defining the national dream.
So out of curiosity, where do you draw the line? Four bathrooms for a bachelor who throws lots of really good parties? :P
At least in terms of luxuries or whatever I'm not concerned, but...
Like my parents pretty much let me (and also my brother) go to whatever college I chose and paid for it. That is something I would like to be able to do for my kids. Or at least as best as I can.
Yeah, I guess it's pretty vague, but then again I'm not the one who used the word "exactly" and is getting fixated on it like it's some holy rule written in stone. I guess, if you want to get all lawyery about it, I could add "within the parameters of modern western society", which would include such things as a radio, a TV and a computer with an Internet access. These things could be construed as luxuries, I guess, but they're just regular every day items in the society I live in.
Well, okay. I guess it's not an awesome megadream like owning a mansion with 27 rooms, of which you only ever use 4, maybe 5, and a super fast car that can go from 0 to 200 in three seconds, and then you end up driving it on roads with 80km/h limit. I guess I need to adjust my dreams so that I can dream of having tons of useless crap just because.
You, baby.
I guess. I've never played an instrument. Is there a significant difference between a trumpet made by the master of trumpetry or the trumpet you got from Wal-Mart?
Yeah, why not. They're called, y'know, libraries. Anyone can walk in there and borrow some of those great books for their reading pleasure. Oh, that pesky government and their wacky inventions.
Well, most jobs have Sundays off, so y'know, go fishing on Sundays. A whole day for fishing, yay.
Yeah, okay, you got me there. You can now proudly proclaim "gotcha". I'd like to work at a job that doesn't suck. So, let's add "and have a job that doesn't suck" to my dream. Gratz, you win.
No, I'm really quite boring when you get down to it.
I don't draw a line in the sense that I sneer at all those past it, because, like I said, it's a matter of degree and largely arbitrary.
I'd say that if you spend a lot of money on something you'd utilize very little, it's "pointlessly extravagant". The things on my list, I would use them daily or near-daily. The bathrooms? That would come in handy every day. The home-theater? I watch movies all the time. The cars would be used daily, except for the SUV, but then I wouldn't drop $Texas on the SUV. The 8-year-old 4Runner I have now would be fine.
If someone threw massive parties all the time, then having a few bathrooms and a huge living area would be perfectly justifiable. A bachelor who never had anyone over might be silly for having more than 1 bathroom.
Keep in mind I was talking about what I would do I if I had a pretty massive amount of money. If you have the money, and you're going to be getting use out of it, why not?
Except for the cars and the house, I'm pretty much here with you.
I'd much rather have an urban condo than a house, and I don't really feel like I need more than one car. (Honestly, I'd like to live without a car for a while.)
Frankly, my time is the only resource I have that is irreplaceable; therefore, I would much much rather work fewer hours than own more stuff..
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.