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Young Americans losing their religion at a rapid pace

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  • EvanderEvander Disappointed Father Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Scalfin wrote: »
    follow the law and don't go around sodomizing puppies.

    this is technically redundant. :P



    The breakdown I generally give people on the Abrahamic religions is that Judaism is about actions, christianity is about faith, and Islam is about devotion.

    Evander on
  • EvanderEvander Disappointed Father Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Bama wrote: »
    allow me to illustrate with a joke:
    It had been raining for days and days, and a terrible flood had come over the land. The waters rose so high that one man was forced to climb onto the roof of his house.

    As the waters rose higher and higher, a man in a rowboat appeared, and told him to get in. "No," replied the man on the roof. "I have faith in the Lord; the Lord will save me." So the man in the rowboat went away. The man on the roof prayed for God to save him.

    The waters rose higher and higher, and suddenly a speedboat appeared. "Climb in!" shouted a man in the boat. "No," replied the man on the roof. "I have faith in the Lord; the Lord will save me." So the man in the speedboat went away. The man on the roof prayed for God to save him.


    The waters continued to rise. A helicopter appeared and over the loudspeaker, the pilot announced he would lower a rope to the man on the roof. "No," replied the man on the roof. "I have faith in the Lord; the Lord will save me." So the helicopter went away. The man on the roof prayed for God to save him.

    The waters rose higher and higher, and eventually they rose so high that the man on the roof was washed away, and alas, the poor man drowned.

    Upon arriving in heaven, the man marched straight over to God. "Heavenly Father," he said, "I had faith in you, I prayed to you to save me, and yet you did nothing. Why?" God gave him a puzzled look, and replied "I sent you two boats and a helicopter, what more did you expect?

    You cut out the dolphin.

    It's always better with the dolphin.

    Evander on
  • BamaBama Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    I don't think I've ever heard a version with a dolphin.

    Bama on
  • TamTam Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Evander wrote: »
    Scalfin wrote: »
    follow the law and don't go around sodomizing puppies.

    this is technically redundant. :P



    The breakdown I generally give people on the Abrahamic religions is that Judaism is about actions, christianity is about faith, and Islam is about devotion.

    wait, okay, are the latter two really that different? could you define faith vs. devotion as you see them?

    Tam on
  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Evander wrote: »
    FCD wrote: »
    I mean ... shit, whatever. I don't even care anymore. Just don't raise your damn kids Jewish.

    That is basically the MOST IMPORTANT PART for me, so fuck you.

    The most important part of your religion is your prerogative to instill it upon others before they are old enough to make a rational decision as to its worth? I mean, if the Torah really is simply a list of commandments which make perfect logical sense, then why can they not be presented like any other set of facts, as a topic for discussion and debate in which the child can form its own opinion once it is old enough?

    True as a parent you lay down rules to keep the child safe, but do you really insist on instilling blind faith in those other areas. My niece has to go to bed at 7 PM. Its a good rule for her, but its not one in which she needs to invest all her faith and energy. Once she grows up enough to decide she will set her own bedtime.

    How does say, keeping the Sabbath holy, help a child grow up safe and happy? How does 'avoid pork' help? Or 'No shellfish'. Or "Don't worship Zeus". Most of the laws in the Torah are clearly pointless in the modern world unless you believe in the God behind them who 'knows better' than you do

    tbloxham on
    "That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
  • ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2009
    Bama wrote: »
    Scalfin wrote: »
    Cantido wrote: »
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Here's one that might bring this thread back on topic: boy risks his life in hopes that natural remedies and prayer will heal his cancer. This means there still are young people who take religion seriously.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30763438/

    I don't think brainwashed by his own parents counts.

    Please...all children are brainwashed by their parents.

    I love it when they do this stupid shit. It's called Tempting God [trying to force a miracle] and it's blasphemy.

    Is that how Christianity reconciles that these days?

    All I know is that Christianity and Islam both have very strong traditions of people refusing to provide themselves with food or water because making any actions to do it themselves would show doubt of god's power.
    No, what Cantido is saying is that it's these "alternative medicine" dipshits that are blaspheming.

    allow me to illustrate with a joke:
    It had been raining for days and days, and a terrible flood had come over the land. The waters rose so high that one man was forced to climb onto the roof of his house.

    As the waters rose higher and higher, a man in a rowboat appeared, and told him to get in. "No," replied the man on the roof. "I have faith in the Lord; the Lord will save me." So the man in the rowboat went away. The man on the roof prayed for God to save him.

    The waters rose higher and higher, and suddenly a speedboat appeared. "Climb in!" shouted a man in the boat. "No," replied the man on the roof. "I have faith in the Lord; the Lord will save me." So the man in the speedboat went away. The man on the roof prayed for God to save him.


    The waters continued to rise. A helicopter appeared and over the loudspeaker, the pilot announced he would lower a rope to the man on the roof. "No," replied the man on the roof. "I have faith in the Lord; the Lord will save me." So the helicopter went away. The man on the roof prayed for God to save him.

    The waters rose higher and higher, and eventually they rose so high that the man on the roof was washed away, and alas, the poor man drowned.

    Upon arriving in heaven, the man marched straight over to God. "Heavenly Father," he said, "I had faith in you, I prayed to you to save me, and yet you did nothing. Why?" God gave him a puzzled look, and replied "I sent you two boats and a helicopter, what more did you expect?

    That's exactly what those movements did. Except they only sometimes bothered to pray.

    Scalfin on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    The rest of you, I fucking hate you for the fact that I now have a blue dot on this god awful thread.
  • EvanderEvander Disappointed Father Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    tbloxham wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    Quingo wrote:
    I mean ... shit, whatever. I don't even care anymore. Just don't raise your damn kids Jewish.

    That is basically the MOST IMPORTANT PART for me, so fuck you.

    The most important part of your religion is your prerogative to instill it upon others before they are old enough to make a rational decision as to its worth? I mean, if the Torah really is simply a list of commandments which make perfect logical sense, then why can they not be presented like any other set of facts, as a topic for discussion and debate in which the child can form its own opinion once it is old enough?

    True as a parent you lay down rules to keep the child safe, but do you really insist on instilling blind faith in those other areas. My niece has to go to bed at 7 PM. Its a good rule for her, but its not one in which she needs to invest all her faith and energy. Once she grows up enough to decide she will set her own bedtime.

    How does say, keeping the Sabbath holy, help a child grow up safe and happy? How does 'avoid pork' help? Or 'No shellfish'. Or "Don't worship Zeus". Most of the laws in the Torah are clearly pointless in the modern world unless you believe in the God behind them who 'knows better' than you do

    Hey buddy, you don't know me, and you don't know what I'm about.

    You have NO IDEA what level of observence I keep, nor do you have ANY idea what the term "raising my kids Jewish" means to me.



    So, in conclusion, you ought to call a doctor about surgically removing your cranium from your colon.

    Evander on
  • EvanderEvander Disappointed Father Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Tam wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    Scalfin wrote: »
    follow the law and don't go around sodomizing puppies.

    this is technically redundant. :P



    The breakdown I generally give people on the Abrahamic religions is that Judaism is about actions, christianity is about faith, and Islam is about devotion.

    wait, okay, are the latter two really that different? could you define faith vs. devotion as you see them?

    I say devotion, but technically it is submission. Whereas a religious Christian tends to live his life with his faith in God in mind, a religious Muslim submits his entire life to his god.

    In some ways (like Islam itself) it is something of a combination of Judaism and Christianity, by combing faith and action.

    Evander on
  • ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2009
    Evander wrote: »
    tbloxham wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    Quingo wrote:
    I mean ... shit, whatever. I don't even care anymore. Just don't raise your damn kids Jewish.

    That is basically the MOST IMPORTANT PART for me, so fuck you.

    The most important part of your religion is your prerogative to instill it upon others before they are old enough to make a rational decision as to its worth? I mean, if the Torah really is simply a list of commandments which make perfect logical sense, then why can they not be presented like any other set of facts, as a topic for discussion and debate in which the child can form its own opinion once it is old enough?

    True as a parent you lay down rules to keep the child safe, but do you really insist on instilling blind faith in those other areas. My niece has to go to bed at 7 PM. Its a good rule for her, but its not one in which she needs to invest all her faith and energy. Once she grows up enough to decide she will set her own bedtime.

    How does say, keeping the Sabbath holy, help a child grow up safe and happy? How does 'avoid pork' help? Or 'No shellfish'. Or "Don't worship Zeus". Most of the laws in the Torah are clearly pointless in the modern world unless you believe in the God behind them who 'knows better' than you do

    Hey buddy, you don't know me, and you don't know what I'm about.

    You have NO IDEA what level of observence I keep, nor do you have ANY idea what the term "raising my kids Jewish" means to me.



    So, in conclusion, you ought to call a doctor about surgically removing your cranium from your colon.

    I also would like to raise my children Jewish, especially because the de facto alternative is to raise my kids culturally Christian.

    Scalfin on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    The rest of you, I fucking hate you for the fact that I now have a blue dot on this god awful thread.
  • BamaBama Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    false dichotomy much?

    Bama on
  • QinguQingu Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Evander wrote: »
    FCD wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    FCD wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    Again, you don't get to define other people's beliefs.

    YOU YOURSELF get real tough about biblical litteralism, yet you insist on ignoring that NOWHERE in the Torah does it require one to believe in the existence of god.

    This seems like dancing around the point. Why would one be a follower of a particular religion if one didn't believe in the central element of it(in this case, the God described in the Torah)?

    Because God ISN'T the central element of Judaism, the Torah itself is.

    The Torah is a list of 613 commanments that a Jew must follow. God is simply a story of how the Torah got here, but none of the commandments say you must believe that story.

    Why would one follow those commandments if they didn't believe the "story" behind how they came to be?

    In general? Could be any reason.

    Me specifically? Because I like them. I don't really need a better reason than that.
    As if you follow even 5% of the commandments, Evander.

    Or should I expect a visit from you, carrying some large stones?

    Qingu on
  • QinguQingu Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Evander wrote: »
    Hey buddy, you don't know me, and you don't know what I'm about.

    You have NO IDEA what level of observence I keep, nor do you have ANY idea what the term "raising my kids Jewish" means to me.
    It comforts you to keep alive the silly superstitions of your relatives who were murdered because it makes their deaths seem less pointless?

    And likewise it would comfort you to watch your kids pantomime the same silly superstitions?

    Or is there something else?

    Qingu on
  • ArgusArgus Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    So, this whole argument got off track when Qingu and Evander decided to start the ad-hominems, but I would just like to ask Evander:

    You said that Abraham gets punished for wanting to kill his own son, even though God commanded him to do it. I've been going through the thread, and I don't see you ever citing part of the Bible/Talmud/what-have-you talking about this, even just the part where it says that his wife died and such, without the whole bit about it being punishment. I'm not too familiar with the aftermath of the story, so I don't know where it is.

    Could you quote that bit please?

    Argus on
    pasigsizedu5.jpg
  • ronyaronya Arrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    edited May 2009
    ... given that it was my off-hand remark that sparked four pages of commentary, I feel obligated to point out that whether or not God did punish Abraham is technically off-topic as well. But I actually do want to find out, so uh never mind.

    ronya on
    aRkpc.gif
  • DuffelDuffel jacobkosh Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Argus wrote: »
    So, this whole argument got off track when Qingu and Evander decided to start the ad-hominems, but I would just like to ask Evander:

    You said that Abraham gets punished for wanting to kill his own son, even though God commanded him to do it. I've been going through the thread, and I don't see you ever citing part of the Bible/Talmud/what-have-you talking about this, even just the part where it says that his wife died and such, without the whole bit about it being punishment. I'm not too familiar with the aftermath of the story, so I don't know where it is.

    Could you quote that bit please?
    It's because texts like the ones written about the Patriarchs were never intended to be textbooks, even at the time of their writing. They're simply religious stories around which a considerable oral tradition sprang up, and at the time the Pentateuch was compiled nobody felt the need for every story and individual interpretation thereof to be written down. As such, it sometimes becomes difficult to determine just when/where a belief system sprang up, but we don't have a lot to work with.

    It seems strange to us in this day and age, when we can get virtually any book and commentaries on that book simply by logging on to the net or getting a library card, but 2500 years ago things were very different. We've pretty much lost most of oral traditions today, but back then it was common and accepted in just about every society.

    Duffel on
  • QinguQingu Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Duffel wrote: »
    It's because texts like the ones written about the Patriarchs were never intended to be textbooks, even at the time of their writing. They're simply religious stories around which a considerable oral tradition sprang up, and at the time the Pentateuch was compiled nobody felt the need for every story and individual interpretation thereof to be written down. As such, it sometimes becomes difficult to determine just when/where a belief system sprang up, but we don't have a lot to work with.

    It seems strange to us in this day and age, when we can get virtually any book and commentaries on that book simply by logging on to the net or getting a library card, but 2500 years ago things were very different. We've pretty much lost most of oral traditions today, but back then it was common and accepted in just about every society.
    Are you saying the oral traditions dating from the time of Biblical position survived and became part of the Talmud?

    Qingu on
  • DuffelDuffel jacobkosh Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Qingu wrote: »
    Are you saying the oral traditions dating from the time of Biblical position survived and became part of the Talmud?
    I'm sorry, what do you mean by "Biblical position"? The date the text claims the events originally happened?

    I would personally say that oral traditions changed a little bit in every generation (more or less depending on the surrounding circumstances), and the oral tradition recorded in the Talmud is based upon an earlier version dating we could theoretically trace back to its inception, if that's what you mean. But, as I say, I would be very surprised if those oral traditions came down verbatim, since that's not the way oral tradition usually works.

    Duffel on
  • ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2009
    Qingu wrote: »
    Duffel wrote: »
    It's because texts like the ones written about the Patriarchs were never intended to be textbooks, even at the time of their writing. They're simply religious stories around which a considerable oral tradition sprang up, and at the time the Pentateuch was compiled nobody felt the need for every story and individual interpretation thereof to be written down. As such, it sometimes becomes difficult to determine just when/where a belief system sprang up, but we don't have a lot to work with.

    It seems strange to us in this day and age, when we can get virtually any book and commentaries on that book simply by logging on to the net or getting a library card, but 2500 years ago things were very different. We've pretty much lost most of oral traditions today, but back then it was common and accepted in just about every society.
    Are you saying the oral traditions dating from the time of Biblical position survived and became part of the Talmud?

    Some of the older ones. Generally they just threw in anything that made good commentary because the Talmud is a book of commentary.

    Scalfin on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    The rest of you, I fucking hate you for the fact that I now have a blue dot on this god awful thread.
  • ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2009
    Argus wrote: »
    So, this whole argument got off track when Qingu and Evander decided to start the ad-hominems, but I would just like to ask Evander:

    You said that Abraham gets punished for wanting to kill his own son, even though God commanded him to do it. I've been going through the thread, and I don't see you ever citing part of the Bible/Talmud/what-have-you talking about this, even just the part where it says that his wife died and such, without the whole bit about it being punishment. I'm not too familiar with the aftermath of the story, so I don't know where it is.

    Could you quote that bit please?

    It's generally inferred from how distant god is towards Abraham after that compared to before.

    Scalfin on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    The rest of you, I fucking hate you for the fact that I now have a blue dot on this god awful thread.
  • DelzhandDelzhand Hard to miss. Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Scalfin wrote: »
    Argus wrote: »
    So, this whole argument got off track when Qingu and Evander decided to start the ad-hominems, but I would just like to ask Evander:

    You said that Abraham gets punished for wanting to kill his own son, even though God commanded him to do it. I've been going through the thread, and I don't see you ever citing part of the Bible/Talmud/what-have-you talking about this, even just the part where it says that his wife died and such, without the whole bit about it being punishment. I'm not too familiar with the aftermath of the story, so I don't know where it is.

    Could you quote that bit please?

    It's generally inferred from how distant god is towards Abraham after that compared to before.

    I don't know if I buy into that. But I'll say this if it's true - God deals with Abraham pretty much the same way I'd deal with a schizo. "Yeah, man, you're pretty cool. We should hang out some time. Maybe you can show me your drawings of knives then. You're a nice guy." Then avoid him for the rest of my life.

    Delzhand on
  • ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2009
    Delzhand wrote: »
    Scalfin wrote: »
    Argus wrote: »
    So, this whole argument got off track when Qingu and Evander decided to start the ad-hominems, but I would just like to ask Evander:

    You said that Abraham gets punished for wanting to kill his own son, even though God commanded him to do it. I've been going through the thread, and I don't see you ever citing part of the Bible/Talmud/what-have-you talking about this, even just the part where it says that his wife died and such, without the whole bit about it being punishment. I'm not too familiar with the aftermath of the story, so I don't know where it is.

    Could you quote that bit please?

    It's generally inferred from how distant god is towards Abraham after that compared to before.

    I don't know if I buy into that. But I'll say this if it's true - God deals with Abraham pretty much the same way I'd deal with a schizo. "Yeah, man, you're pretty cool. We should hang out some time. Maybe you can show me your drawings of knives then. You're a nice guy." Then avoid him for the rest of my life.

    As I've said in other threads, the ancient Hebrews loved them some sociopaths and would have included the Punisher if they'd known about them.

    Scalfin on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    The rest of you, I fucking hate you for the fact that I now have a blue dot on this god awful thread.
  • QinguQingu Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Duffel wrote: »
    Qingu wrote: »
    Are you saying the oral traditions dating from the time of Biblical position survived and became part of the Talmud?
    I'm sorry, what do you mean by "Biblical position"? The date the text claims the events originally happened?

    I would personally say that oral traditions changed a little bit in every generation (more or less depending on the surrounding circumstances), and the oral tradition recorded in the Talmud is based upon an earlier version dating we could theoretically trace back to its inception, if that's what you mean. But, as I say, I would be very surprised if those oral traditions came down verbatim, since that's not the way oral tradition usually works.
    I meant to write "composition." :)

    I don't even know if you can trace a line back from the Talmud to the original oral traditions. I don't know that much about the Talmud, though.

    Qingu on
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Scalfin wrote: »
    As I've said in other threads, the ancient Hebrews loved them some sociopaths and would have included the Punisher if they'd known about them.

    Ancient anyone pretty much gets their rocks off to sociopathic behavior. It's why it's so absurd how people look back at these time periods as something to admire. Like the republicans and the 50s. :P

    Incenjucar on
  • ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2009
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Scalfin wrote: »
    As I've said in other threads, the ancient Hebrews loved them some sociopaths and would have included the Punisher if they'd known about them.

    Ancient anyone pretty much gets their rocks off to sociopathic behavior. It's why it's so absurd how people look back at these time periods as something to admire. Like the republicans and the 50s. :P

    Well, the Romans seemed to like Jesus Sues.

    Scalfin on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    The rest of you, I fucking hate you for the fact that I now have a blue dot on this god awful thread.
  • DuffelDuffel jacobkosh Registered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Qingu wrote: »
    I meant to write "composition." :)

    I don't even know if you can trace a line back from the Talmud to the original oral traditions. I don't know that much about the Talmud, though.
    Ah. As far as the time of composition goes, we're talking about, what, 700 years or so? I don't think it's impossible that oral interpretations survived for that long, but as I say, they inevitably change a little bit with each telling.

    Oral traditions are pretty much untraceable, for obvious reasons. Depending on how the tradition was transferred generationally and to what degree they insisted on given interprations/tellings of that tradition, a largely intact oral tradition could conceivably survive for centuries. On the other hand, various takes on the written text could have developed only a generation or two before their recording. There's really no way to know, unfortunately.

    Duffel on
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited May 2009
    Oral traditions can actually stay pretty static in some cases, actually. Oral traditions aren't guaranteed to have fallen for the telephone game effect.

    Incenjucar on
  • ElJeffeElJeffe Roaming the streets, waving his mod gun around.Moderator, ClubPA Mod Emeritus
    edited May 2009
    Hey look, an angry religious thread.

    And lo did He look down from on high and lock the Almighty Fuck out of the thread, and yea it was good. And on the seventh day He kicked back and played some Rock Band, because He's fucking metal.

    ElJeffe on
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