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Why can't we have nice things? Mediation and [girl thread]
Nechriah
Chookity!Registered User regular
Chookity!Registered User regular
So, for the past year or so I've had an unrequited crush on my friend Ilene. I've liked her for a lot longer than that, but I only found out that the feeling was a bit one-sided last year. I made a thread about it at the time, if anyone's interested in reading the whole story. Basically, she went on one date with me, but then after that she always had to study or work when I wanted to make plans. Eventually, our mutual friend Jennifer told me that Ilene liked me okay but wasn't interested in anything more serious because I didn't measure up to her exacting standards. Ilene didn't want to tell me this herself because she was worried it would hurt my feelings, so settled for being passive-aggressive and avoiding me. Needless to say, things didn't quite work out the way either of us had hoped. In the aftermath of all that, I eventually went back to my therapist when everything else I tried in order to get over Ilene didn't work.
Right now, I can confidently say that the therapy has helped a lot. I'm far more comfortable with myself as a person than I have been for a long time. I've come to terms with the fact that Ilene isn't the wonderful, ideal girl I'd built her up to be in my mind. Yes, she's gorgeous, we have a good rapport, and I enjoy spending time with her - but she's not without her own issues. So while I still have a crush on Ilene, it's Ilene with her flaws as well as her good points that I like, and not the Ilene I'd idealised and put on a lofty pedestal. More importantly, I think I have accepted the fact that Ilene isn't interested in me as anything more than a friend at this point in our lives. Perhaps she won't ever want us to be more than 'just friends' - again, I'm okay with this. If that's what makes her happy, I'm not going to piss her off by becoming the clingy, obsessed friend who eventually destroys that relationship too.
The last time I saw Ilene, at dinner with Jennifer and some other friends a couple of weeks ago, she actually said that she'd been meaning to call me and talk about what happened, or didn't happen, between us. Before, I would have probably blurted out exactly how I felt about her and begged her to give me another chance, or something equally pathetic. I think I handled it as well as I could, saying something along the lines of "It's okay - we don't have to talk about it if you don't want to. I mean, what else is there to say? We've both made how we feel abundantly clear, so there's really nothing else to do besides put this behind us, and get on with our lives". Ilene seemed to like that, and while things were a bit awkward between us for some of the night, it seems like we can at least be friends again.
So, what is the problem here, I hear you ask? Why do I need help and/or advice? Well, Ilene and I have two mutual friends, Jennifer and Abby. They all went through primary school and high school together, and until a couple of years ago were all extremely close. However, the whole business with me brought some resentful feelings toward Ilene to a head, and now Abby and Jennifer don’t want much to do with Ilene these days. They feel that Ilene hasn’t matured much since high school, that she is incredibly self-centred and whiney, and that she puts no effort into their friendship. They’ve also had enough of her knack for saying incredibly hurtful things, but not realising that what she’s said could be construed as hurtful.
The tragic thing here is that Ilene is completely oblivious to all this. She doesn’t realise that Abby and Jennifer are angry at her at all. The problem with Ilene is that she is incredibly bright – in an academic setting at least – but she’s pretty terrible in social situations a lot of the time. I guess that because I don’t see her on a regular basis I’m willing to cut her more slack when it comes to social gaffs (that, and I make plenty myself). And I know I’m probably biased, but I think that while she can be a chore at times, she is a good person. What’s more, I’m pretty sure that Jennifer does still want to be friends with Ilene, it’s just that she’s pissed off with her at the moment (I’m not sure about Abby though). I reckon that if Jennifer perceived Ilene was actually putting the effort into their friendship again, things would get back to normal between them pretty fast.
Now, looking at all of this I can see how somebody might ask “but Nechriah, how is this any of your business? Why do you care?†I guess care because I don’t like watching my friends fight amongst each other, particularly when one of them doesn’t even realise they’re fighting. And since it was the situation with me that brought all of this to a head, I feel obligated to try and fix things. The trouble is, I don’t know how. Now we’re finally getting to why I need help and advice!
See, I want to be friends with Ilene, but if I call her up and ask her to have dinner with me, or see a movie together, or anything like that; she could get the wrong idea and think that I’m trying for a relationship again – which I wouldn’t be. And the problem is, I have to initiate things because, as my therapist suggested, Ilene is more than likely hesitant to try and initiate anything herself because she’s probably worried that I could misinterpret it as a signal of her sudden interest in me as more than a friend. And if neither of us does anything, we’re probably not going to see each other if Jennifer and Abby will organise things but only invite me. So, for all our sakes, I think it would be better if somebody did something. What, though? I could tell Ilene that her friends aren’t too fond of her at the moment, but that would kind of feel like stabbing Jennifer and Abby in the back, considering how supportive they were when I was moping around over Ilene.
I guess I am looking for some advice on how to go about rebuilding my friendship with Ilene; and at the same time help her rebuild her friendship with Jennifer, and possibly Abby. Some suggestions for stuff that we can all do together would probably be helpful too – something that Ilene will not find too full-on, and something where Jennifer doesn’t necessarily have to interact with her too much.
Thanks in advance for helpful suggestions, and I hope that this all makes some kind of sense – it took me ages to even get it this coherent.
~ Nechriah
TL;DR - I have an unrequited crush on my friend Ilene, but I'm pretty sure that I've "moved on" to the best of my ability. At this point I'm content to be her friend, but I hardly see her much these days. One of the reasons for this is because our mutual friends, Jennifer and Abby, are not overly fond of her at the moment – partly because of how she handled things with me. I'd like to at least try to help them get back on speaking terms with each other; particularly as this whole thing feels like it's my fault. I guess I'm looking for a way to mediate this conflict, which is made difficult by the fact that Ilene doesn’t know that there is a conflict. Telling her what the score is isn’t really an option, but I don’t know what else is. I’d also like some suggestions for activities that we can all do together; which Ilene will find non-threatening, and where Jennifer and Abby won't necessarily have to interact with Ilene a great deal.
Right now, I can confidently say that the therapy has helped a lot. I'm far more comfortable with myself as a person than I have been for a long time. I've come to terms with the fact that Ilene isn't the wonderful, ideal girl I'd built her up to be in my mind. Yes, she's gorgeous, we have a good rapport, and I enjoy spending time with her - but she's not without her own issues. So while I still have a crush on Ilene, it's Ilene with her flaws as well as her good points that I like, and not the Ilene I'd idealised and put on a lofty pedestal. More importantly, I think I have accepted the fact that Ilene isn't interested in me as anything more than a friend at this point in our lives. Perhaps she won't ever want us to be more than 'just friends' - again, I'm okay with this. If that's what makes her happy, I'm not going to piss her off by becoming the clingy, obsessed friend who eventually destroys that relationship too.
The last time I saw Ilene, at dinner with Jennifer and some other friends a couple of weeks ago, she actually said that she'd been meaning to call me and talk about what happened, or didn't happen, between us. Before, I would have probably blurted out exactly how I felt about her and begged her to give me another chance, or something equally pathetic. I think I handled it as well as I could, saying something along the lines of "It's okay - we don't have to talk about it if you don't want to. I mean, what else is there to say? We've both made how we feel abundantly clear, so there's really nothing else to do besides put this behind us, and get on with our lives". Ilene seemed to like that, and while things were a bit awkward between us for some of the night, it seems like we can at least be friends again.
So, what is the problem here, I hear you ask? Why do I need help and/or advice? Well, Ilene and I have two mutual friends, Jennifer and Abby. They all went through primary school and high school together, and until a couple of years ago were all extremely close. However, the whole business with me brought some resentful feelings toward Ilene to a head, and now Abby and Jennifer don’t want much to do with Ilene these days. They feel that Ilene hasn’t matured much since high school, that she is incredibly self-centred and whiney, and that she puts no effort into their friendship. They’ve also had enough of her knack for saying incredibly hurtful things, but not realising that what she’s said could be construed as hurtful.
The tragic thing here is that Ilene is completely oblivious to all this. She doesn’t realise that Abby and Jennifer are angry at her at all. The problem with Ilene is that she is incredibly bright – in an academic setting at least – but she’s pretty terrible in social situations a lot of the time. I guess that because I don’t see her on a regular basis I’m willing to cut her more slack when it comes to social gaffs (that, and I make plenty myself). And I know I’m probably biased, but I think that while she can be a chore at times, she is a good person. What’s more, I’m pretty sure that Jennifer does still want to be friends with Ilene, it’s just that she’s pissed off with her at the moment (I’m not sure about Abby though). I reckon that if Jennifer perceived Ilene was actually putting the effort into their friendship again, things would get back to normal between them pretty fast.
Now, looking at all of this I can see how somebody might ask “but Nechriah, how is this any of your business? Why do you care?†I guess care because I don’t like watching my friends fight amongst each other, particularly when one of them doesn’t even realise they’re fighting. And since it was the situation with me that brought all of this to a head, I feel obligated to try and fix things. The trouble is, I don’t know how. Now we’re finally getting to why I need help and advice!
See, I want to be friends with Ilene, but if I call her up and ask her to have dinner with me, or see a movie together, or anything like that; she could get the wrong idea and think that I’m trying for a relationship again – which I wouldn’t be. And the problem is, I have to initiate things because, as my therapist suggested, Ilene is more than likely hesitant to try and initiate anything herself because she’s probably worried that I could misinterpret it as a signal of her sudden interest in me as more than a friend. And if neither of us does anything, we’re probably not going to see each other if Jennifer and Abby will organise things but only invite me. So, for all our sakes, I think it would be better if somebody did something. What, though? I could tell Ilene that her friends aren’t too fond of her at the moment, but that would kind of feel like stabbing Jennifer and Abby in the back, considering how supportive they were when I was moping around over Ilene.
I guess I am looking for some advice on how to go about rebuilding my friendship with Ilene; and at the same time help her rebuild her friendship with Jennifer, and possibly Abby. Some suggestions for stuff that we can all do together would probably be helpful too – something that Ilene will not find too full-on, and something where Jennifer doesn’t necessarily have to interact with her too much.
Thanks in advance for helpful suggestions, and I hope that this all makes some kind of sense – it took me ages to even get it this coherent.
~ Nechriah
TL;DR - I have an unrequited crush on my friend Ilene, but I'm pretty sure that I've "moved on" to the best of my ability. At this point I'm content to be her friend, but I hardly see her much these days. One of the reasons for this is because our mutual friends, Jennifer and Abby, are not overly fond of her at the moment – partly because of how she handled things with me. I'd like to at least try to help them get back on speaking terms with each other; particularly as this whole thing feels like it's my fault. I guess I'm looking for a way to mediate this conflict, which is made difficult by the fact that Ilene doesn’t know that there is a conflict. Telling her what the score is isn’t really an option, but I don’t know what else is. I’d also like some suggestions for activities that we can all do together; which Ilene will find non-threatening, and where Jennifer and Abby won't necessarily have to interact with Ilene a great deal.
Nechriah on
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I would suggest talking about it with the other two in a way that just points out "hey, maybe you should talk to Ilene about this instead of being passive-aggressive". Try and make them see that the reason they are "fighting" is because Ilene is oblivious - and they can't expect her to notice an invisible fight.
Being the middle man sucks. You always get screwed in the end, because both parties end up thinking you didn't do enough to help them.
You know the default Sitcom plot where someone tries to repair the relationship between two people who he knows. Do those episodes ever end without everyong getting angry at the meddler?
Do you have some other friend you can use a the de-akwardizer in seeing Ilene?
Also this thing may be cyclical, the girls just may get over the things they don't like about Ilene eventually.
https://medium.com/@alascii
Now, I do not know anything about this girl. I am not saying any of the above are true. But what I am saying is that especially as someone who has issues with relationships and pursuing women (Not here to judge, trust me, we're in the same boat
Let their friendships play out as they will. If you'd like, provide your opinion of one party to the other when appropriate. I realize you want to improve things, but being a third party mediator makes things incredibly complicated, especially for you. It may be stressful to see friends drift apart, but not as stressful as it will be if they are torn apart with you in the middle of it, trying to hold everything together.
On the other topic, maybe reconsider whether it's okay for you hang out with this girl? You seem a little vulnerable. I went through about 3 distinct "Okay I'm over it we can be platonic friends" points with my ex, one of which ended in "holy fuck I hate her guts" and another in "holy fuck I am falling back in love with her". You're going to have to use your judgment here.
If you want to hang out with her, ask her to do something, and tell her in very definite terms this is in no way a date. Bring a friend other than Abby or Jennifer. Done.
Did you talk about this whole thing with your therapist? He/she knows way more about you, and about therapy than we do, so he/she may be able to provide far better advice.
PSN/XBL: dragoniemx
You're engineering instances, and excuses, so that you can be around Ilene.
I am surprised your therapist hasn't told you to just move on. You said it yourself that she has made it "abundantly clear" how she feels about you. Why you want to subject yourself to all this drama, just so you can make sure that Ilene doesn't feel like you are asking her out alone, and still be able to hang out with Ilene seems...harmful...to you. Does that make sense?
Forget the drama and how you're going to make everyone happy for a second. If you want to ask Ilene, as a friend, to go to a movie, dinner, whatever...without singling her out or making her think it's a date then just make sure to do your invites in a group manner. If you want to go to the movies send your e-mail to more than just Ilene. Send your texts to more than just Ilene. When you call Ilene say "hey I invited Jennifer, Abby, Dick and Jane to see Star Trek this weekend, thought you might want to check it out too."
This way she sees it's not going to be just you.
Good luck.
edit: ooh..ooh! The last sentence that wenchkilla wrote...yes, that!
I don't have much to add at this point as long as you read this twice.
Otherwise I'm not sure why you think its your responsibility to manage other people's relationships.
You did not cause it, you are not at fault for what Jennifer and Abby are going through with Ilene. You THINK you're guilty because you want to feel a right to be involved. You're not the cause of this conflict. You may be the catalyst, maybe, but jesus how egotistical to you have to be to think that you and you alone were the reason three friends are at odds?
Don't look for ways to be the "hero" here. You're probably more than a little tempted to because of Ilene. You're over her, so you say, but it doesn't change the possibility that you're motivated by the need to show her you're a good guy, to show her what she "walked away from."
Even if that's not the case, you're still likely looking for reasons to be around her, to maintain contact her, and to set yourself up as her support system so that you have an "in." Be honest with yourself here. I'm sure that on some level, this may be what is going on, and it isn't particularly healthy given your history with her.
It's simple:
a) If you can't hang around someone because you don't trust that they will trust your intentions, then you can't be friends with them. Either try to hang out with her, or don't, but if you can't because you think she'll think you still like her or something...well, I can tell you that friendships like that don't work.
b) Even if you're somehow involved, you're not responsible for how third parties feel toward each other. And you can't "fix" other people's relationships, and usually that goes double if you're somehow a character or cameo in the whole affair. These two girls will think whatever they think about Ilene regardless of what you do or say and unfortunately, unless you're a hermit, life is never without drama. People will dislike you and people will dislike people you like or hang out with. It's a normal aspect of socialization. I don't like all of my friends' friends and I'm sure there are many friends of friends out there that don't like me either. 'Tis life.
So my advice is to not stress out about what everyone else thinks, not about YOU and especially not about anyone else.
Damn... This is always great advice, but so hard. I'm dealing with a situation where the girl was my best friend for the last five years, almost like family.
I have talked to Anna, my therapist, about this issue at length. Her take on this situation was that I was, until recently, focused on the aspects I like about Ilene and completely ignoring her negative traits; while Jennifer and Abby are doing the exact opposite. Anna went on to say something like "everybody is comprised of positive and negative aspects. Friendship, and romantic relationships, are based largely on seeing the sum of the other person, and acknowledging their flaws while accepting that they are still a vital part of what makes that other person whom we like so much". So, she did encourage me to talk with Jennifer and Abby about this, perhaps to even remind them of Ilene's positive attributes and why they were friends in the first place. That said, she also encouraged me to keep Ilene's negative qualities in mind so that I don't idealise her.
Like you say, I don’t know why Ilene does the things she does, or even what’s motivating me here. Jennifer and Abby agree with me and think that Ilene’s just ridiculously book smart to the point where she has no interpersonal skills; but whereas I think that’s a good enough excuse to cut her some slack on occasion, they think that she ought to know better by this point. As for the hurtful stuff she says, it’s mainly about Jennifer’s weight; which I think is out of genuine concern for Jennifer’s health more than anything else. Other people might just be a little less blunt about it. It can be hard to tell with Ilene though, as she does appear to have a real problem letting people - even her oldest friends like Jennifer and Abby - get too close.
Again, this is possibly true. Probably true. Fuck. I mean, I really do like Ilene, and I do want to spend more time with her. I’m constantly grappling with what my motivation for this is though. Is it because I just want to be there to support my friend during what is proving to be quite a difficult time in her life? Or do I, like Vivixenne suggested, want to establish myself as her support network so that when she eventually decides to start dating, I have an “in� I don’t really know at this stage. Anna also had an opinion on this, suggesting that if I spend more time with Ilene, I will become acclimatised to her being around and not get that powerful surge of emotion each time I see her; and maybe even start to appreciate that she can be as annoying as Jennifer and Abby currently feel she is.
Now, I have sent Ilene a text this morning asking her if she wanted to go to the movies this weekend with myself, my brother and sister and one of my other friends. I've yet to hear back from her, but I figured that this is a nice, simple way to get back into the rythym of seeing her semi-regularly without trying to fix the extra drama with Jennifer and Abby. I'm not going to let myself "awfulise" (as Anna calls it) if she says no; and if she does decide to join us I'll try my hardest not to make a big thing out of it. I'll post an update to let people know how it pans out.
Thanks again to all who've posted advice, it's much appreciated.
Come now man, you are better than that :v:
I'd second this. I did the same thing with a girl after two years. My situation was a bit more ridiculous, as she lived 1000 miles away, so I was spending lots of money as well as time being "an amazing friend" to someone I didn't just want to be friends with, but who had no interest in me that way.
When I finally did make the decision to end it it really sucked for a while, maybe a few weeks. Probably the best thing I could ever do though, it allowed me to focus on meeting other girls and moving on with my life.
These don't have to be mutually exclusive. You can both care about your friend and want to get yourself an "in" as well. The fact that you are grappling with your motivation means you probably know that at least some part of you is favoring the latter.
So you're going to try to hang out with this girl that you have a crush on, and the best case scenario is that you'll end up finding her annoying and liking her less? And then if she ends up coming along to hang out you are going to spend all your time worried you might blow it by showing your feelings? What is so great about hanging out with this particular person that is worth the extra stress you would not feel hanging out with someone who was really just a friend?
Dear God. Seriously, stay out of this. When someone insults a girl's weight, "intentionally" or not, the last thing thing she wants to hear is a friend saying, "But wait! What about their GOOD qualities?"
Women are not high altitude environments; your friend seems naive about emotional relationships. You gain perspective by stepping back from a situation, not throwing yourself into it.
If your friend is genuinely concerned about your friends weight due to health (which I think is bullshit), there are ways of approaching it that are healthy.
You don't say
"Jesus, don't you look a little fat in that outfit." or "She is sooo fat in that outfit."
You say and do,
"Hey, wanna go running sometime?" or "Let's all go out and play frisbee" or "anyone want to have dinner at my house?" and then cook something nice.
You help them instead of shoving their weight in their face, which is why I doubt your friend has any genuinely good intentions when bringing up her friends weight.
When one is trying to quit heroin, the best thing to do is to just shoot up every once in a while, so that you eventually acclimatize to the powerful surges, thus preventing you from wanting more.
Oh junkie logic, perfect and sound, how could you ever fail?
... so consistently.
But I doubt that is the case here, mainly because of
So, no "acclimation" necessary.
Seriously, I swear to you. Every guy over 22 here has gone through this, it is a nerd right of passage to be obsessed with a girl who has rejected you.
I like this quote because it captures a perfect moment of rationalization. That the end is going to somehow change because the invisible means are different.
I've taken the liberty of writing a short morality play;
How Can It Be? by Sarcastro.
I want her because she's perfect.
she's not perfect
I want her despite her imperfections.
she doesn't want you
Like I said, despite any imperfection.
you need to let go
I choose to let go by pursuing her in a different form
that's not letting go at all
Then I choose to let go by involving myself in a secondary situation which through seemingly but by no means absolute deniability may or may not relate to the primary unresolved situation which may or may not preclude or include the possibility of wanting her despite any imperfection.
that's not any different, just more complicated.
Yes, but I'm an intelligent guy; complication is the only way I can fool myself!
Bingo.
fine.
Let me put this in very simple and direct terms...or term:
Stop
You are in incredibly painfully detailed denial of the fact that you are not over Ilene.
Stop talking to Ilene. Stop the friends you hang around from talking about Ilene in your presence.
Stop trying to get in everybody's business about it. You're not doing anybody any favors.
Forget about all of this, and start trying to get over Ilene for real this time.