Agnostic Theism

KurnDerak

Title sums it up pretty much, I'm looking to do some sort of reading or looking into agnostic theism. However, at this point I'm not sure who would be considered a good person to look for on this subject, or what books would hopefully be helpful.

Anything on general agnosticism would work as well, though I am looking more specifically at agnostic theism. Other then that, I don't really fully know what I'm looking for.

Qingu

KurnDerak wrote: »

Title sums it up pretty much, I'm looking to do some sort of reading or looking into agnostic theism. However, at this point I'm not sure who would be considered a good person to look for on this subject, or what books would hopefully be helpful.

Anything on general agnosticism would work as well, though I am looking more specifically at agnostic theism. Other then that, I don't really fully know what I'm looking for.

Can you explain a bit more specifically what you mean by "agnostic theism"? Those two words can mean all sorts of things, individually and together.

KurnDerak

wikipedia wrote:

Agnostic theism, also known as Spiritual Agnosticism is the philosophical view that encompasses both theism and agnosticism. Per theism, an agnostic theist believes that the proposition at least one deity exists is true, but, per agnosticism, believes that the existence of gods are unknown or inherently unknowable. The agnostic theist may also or alternatively be agnostic regarding the properties of the god(s) they believe in.

I really don't know where to go looking for this sort of thing, so I just went to wikipedia. Pretty much I believe there is something deity-like out there, but what, how many and so forth are unknown.

Qingu

KurnDerak wrote: »

wikipedia wrote:

Agnostic theism, also known as Spiritual Agnosticism is the philosophical view that encompasses both theism and agnosticism. Per theism, an agnostic theist believes that the proposition at least one deity exists is true, but, per agnosticism, believes that the existence of gods are unknown or inherently unknowable. The agnostic theist may also or alternatively be agnostic regarding the properties of the god(s) they believe in.

I really don't know where to go looking for this sort of thing, so I just went to wikipedia. Pretty much I believe there is something deity-like out there, but what, how many and so forth are unknown.

Hm.

For the agnosticism side of it, I'd recommend Carl Sagan's The Demon Haunted World.

As for the theism side of it, the problem with the words "theism" and "god" is that you can define them to mean almost anything. Traditionally, "god" refers to a deity that interacts with human history—the gods of religions. But philosophers (many of whom have been religious) have often defined "god" completely abstractly, as, for example, the "unmoved mover/uncaused cause" of Aristotle.

Pantheists believe that the entire universe is God, and Deists believe that God is like a "clockmaker" who created the universe and then never shows his/her/its face again. Functionally, I think Deism and Pantheism are pretty much indistinguishable from Atheism.

So I don't really know what to recommend you for the theism side, because I don't know what kind of god you're looking for. I will say that my favorite religious text ever is the creation hymn of the Rig Veda—the oldest Hindu sacred text—called the Nasadiya. The last lines seem to encapsulate what you're talking about:

Who really knows?
Who will here proclaim it?
Whence was it produced?
Whence is this creation?
The gods came afterwards, with the creation of this universe.
Who then knows whence it has arisen?

Whence this creation has arisen
– perhaps it formed itself, or perhaps it did not –
the One who looks down on it,
in the highest heaven, only He knows
or perhaps He does not know.

Qingu

Also, there's a lot of semantic crap associated with the word "agnostic." A lot of people interpret the word to mean that you cannot know something for 100%.

Well, I'm not 100% sure that I won't fall through my chair when I sit down in it. According to quantum mechanics, there is a very, very slight probability that the particles in my body will pass through the particles in my chair. So am I "agnostic" about whether or not this should happen? I certainly don't modify my behavior around this possibility.

Similarly, I call myself an atheist. I'm not 100% sure that there are no gods, but I don't modify my behavior around the possibility that any god or gods exist.

Some people would say I'm an agnostic. But to me, it's impossible not to be agnostic about any belief, since all beliefs are contingent on some assumptions and therefore rest on some uncertainty. I therefore tend to limit my use of the word to mean someone who is genuinely on the fence about whether or not a belief is true, who goes to church every now and then "just in case." Carl Sagan's book is about how to marshall this inevitable uncertainty into a useful sort of skepticism.

KurnDerak

As for the theism part of it anything recommended would work, as long as it somehow matches the agnostic part. I don't know how much there is out there on agnostic theism, so I fully figure not to find much since you can only go so far saying "there might be something out there, but hell if I know." I currently have no defined vision of what God/gods/pantheistic deity there is out there.

And unless I'm mistaken, agnostic is a term specifically related to the belief/non-belief of any deity or "higher" power.

I'm not sure about "The Demon Haunted World". Looks to be a book simply debunking and such, at least from the description on Amazon.

Theungry

You might try finding a nearby Unitarian Universalist church.

Edit: According to one survey 33% of UUs self-identify as agnostic.

KurnDerak

I've thought about that before, but after my experience with the Christian church I really have little interest to be a part of a church/organized religion again.

Thanks though.

Theungry

I was thinking more that the UUs might know of good resources for you. I don't much go for religion myself.

Fantasma

Hi,

I am not sure what exactly you are looking for, but maybe you would like to take a look at the following article :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurge

KurnDerak

I didn't even think about that. That is a good idea actually. Looks like one that is about 20-30 min drive from me claims to have 500+ members so that might be a good place to go.

I don't think demiurge is what i'm quite looking for at all. It looks like it is simply a term for a creation deity used by a select few religious and philisophical groups, be it on whatever level of a deity heirarchy they stand.