He's saying it's not a very good indicator and he's right, you'd hit a mafia just as likely as you would seering RNG on that kind of comment typically.
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FiggyFighter of the night manChampion of the sunRegistered Userregular
edited June 2009
Magus nearly killed out guard on day one. That was hilarious.
When I realized I directed a kill off of Kime, I became especially suspicious of Kime.. and then he started goading good specials into contacting him... hmmmm
Also, Gandalf, one of the main reasons you got vigged is because you claimed to have bus driven Kime on day 1, when I (the bus driver) was in the good network and saying, "uhm no, that was me. Gandalf is a liar."
I mildly disagree. Of course it's not anywhere near "reliable", but the simple fact is that when you're looking at voting records, kill choices, other mechanics and such and still have a legitimate choice to make between targets, paying attention to the way they conduct themselves in the thread discussion can help you make a smarter decision.
Jesus. It's not like I proclaimed the invention of the Detect-o-matic 3000, guaranteed to find Mafia or your money back. I simply explained why I encouraged dunedain to seer Spectrum.
EDIT: Yeah, Figgy, I understand that. At the time I said it, we weren't sure which side Kime was on, we thought the bus driver might be an evil-aligned player, blah blah blah. Lots of stuff went into that lie, it was a mistake, etc.
There is a mafia population of 20% in a particular game.
kime claims to be evil in the thread.
What are the odds that kime is evil?
20% because it's not indicative of his alignment, an intentional reputation. Just like "I'm just a villager guys" is meaningless. You have to catch something more than that, a slip or something.
And for the logic in general: coming to the correct end does not confirm that the reasonings were sound.
The post made you put in a seering and it nailed a mafia, but it is not based on anything that leads to a higher accuracy or Eri-math.
It wasn't based on the claim itself, it was based on the way it was said. Could it have been wrong? Of course, and I've already admitted that. It came across sketchy to me, that's all.
Thanks for the condescension though, it means the world.
He's saying it's not a very good indicator and he's right, you'd hit a mafia just as likely as you would seering RNG on that kind of comment typically.
At that point I had already decided on Spectrum or Spork anyway, with a placeholder on Spectrum. Also Spectrum, in retrospect I think you're playstyle was slightly different than it was in Scarlet Witch. Not actually noticeable, but I was focused enough on trying to find evidence of you being evil in that game it boiled over into this one. Plus you were on the short list of possible mouthpieces at that point.
And GtC was lead to believe he was a little more involved in decision making later in the game than he actually was(result of lying to be.....taban/nu/whatever the fuck you are :P ).
And GtC was lead to believe he was a little more involved in decision making later in the game than he actually was(result of lying to be.....taban/nu/whatever the fuck you are ).
Fair enough. You would have been a fool to do any different.
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SpectrumArcher of InfernoChaldea Rec RoomRegistered Userregular
edited June 2009
No, that's fair. I don't care if it's lucky or whatever that you decided on me ('cause the RNG is reeeeeeally starting to hate me).
If my playstyle was different between here and Touhou, it's probably because you're dealing with such a small sample size. I'm not going to deny I was going after you in that game to put pressure on other people and see who would be drawn out, so I was expecting a bit of reciprocation. Of course you end up being seer in this game! Although, if you could point out what you felt was different, I'd appreciate it. I'm always trying to improve.
Setting me up as the mouthpiece always ends hilariously. Seriously, go take a look at the Fire Emblem game. It may or may not end well, but it will always end hilariously. I think I was also somewhat mouthpiece-ish during Suiko after our other ones died and I ended up winning the Transfer vote on the Front Gate. *That* was hilarious with the post restriction.
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FiggyFighter of the night manChampion of the sunRegistered Userregular
edited June 2009
So, who all knew who I was, besides those who I actually told or were told by my allies?
I'm wondering if I was as obvious in this game as I was in Scarlet Devil.
SpectrumArcher of InfernoChaldea Rec RoomRegistered Userregular
edited June 2009
I half-suspected you, but not that much until you started screaming in the thread after the bus drive killed jedi before it was retconned. That pretty much screamed that you were the bus driver, but by then the game was over so it didn't matter.
Although, in the future, you may wish to be more careful as if I hadn't been bluffing, you just painted a big target on yourself.
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FiggyFighter of the night manChampion of the sunRegistered Userregular
edited June 2009
Yeah, on that night I was pretty pissed. We had basically won, and I suspected as much, but that very idea that the action order completely fucked over everything made me pretty mad.
Does the vote ever go first? I mean, even in the fucking wiki it says the bus driver usually guards by targeting the vote winner. Not only that, but I was not allowed to target myself, which is another bus driver-ish thing to be able to do.
Apparently in 65mil BC I could have, but I guess Dun forgot to tell me in my PM :P
SpectrumArcher of InfernoChaldea Rec RoomRegistered Userregular
edited June 2009
The vote typically beats everything, yes. Or if it doesn't, that's a game where trickledown is in effect is either made obvious or coyly hinted at.
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FiggyFighter of the night manChampion of the sunRegistered Userregular
edited June 2009
Then the wiki should be edited.. particularly this part:
A bus driver can act like a guardian by targeting the vote leader and another player (such as himself or a known ally) at the end of the day. Since mafias and vigilantes are unlikely to target the already doomed player with a further kill, it's normally a safe way of redirecting unaligned or random kills onto players which were doomed anyway.
Especially if it's typical that the vote goes first, then that would almost never work.
SpectrumArcher of InfernoChaldea Rec RoomRegistered Userregular
edited June 2009
Well, okay, I should probably edit that 'typically' to refer to kills. It's a toss-up whether or not it beats player abilities. You need to find out the action order for a particular game to know what's safe or not.
Yeah, on that night I was pretty pissed. We had basically won, and I suspected as much, but that very idea that the action order completely fucked over everything made me pretty mad.
Does the vote ever go first? I mean, even in the fucking wiki it says the bus driver usually guards by targeting the vote winner. Not only that, but I was not allowed to target myself, which is another bus driver-ish thing to be able to do.
Apparently in 65mil BC I could have, but I guess Dun forgot to tell me in my PM :P
You're misunderstanding what he wrote. Everything he wrote had a chance to happen in those eras, but only the bolded made their rolls.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
Just noticed the line in my Wiki page about "dickish remarks", and felt I should clarify.
I wasn't, in that post, referring to my skill and strategy, which are doubtful at best. I just enjoy the game. I was simply stating that the game, as constructed, did not lean heavily toward a victory for any particular party, and therefore that any loss, suckage, victory or success could not legitimately be blamed on the mechanics. It all came down to player decisions.
That is all I said, that is all I meant, and perhaps people should not take things so seriously.
Gandalf_the_Crazed on
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SpectrumArcher of InfernoChaldea Rec RoomRegistered Userregular
edited June 2009
Yeah. And I'm saying you had an incomplete view of the game at the time, lacking knowledge on all the roles and the event triggers. Your statement was ill-timed and can be construed, at best, as meaningless posturing in my view.
Saying "it all came down to player decisions" is a meaningless cop-out. Everything in any game comes down to player decisions. But available information and the payoffs guide those decisions in different ways, especially with hidden mechanics secretly punishing what seems to be the most reasonable action.
I'll not comment on whether I *actually* think the game was balanced or not, though. Not yet, at least.
You are, of course, free to interpret my remarks in any way you choose.
The remark was primarily in response to people prematurely complaining about supposedly imbalanced and "fucked" mechanics. You may say that my remark, in defense of the game and its host, was ill-timed. I am of the opinion, however, that all the whining taking place was much more ill-timed.
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Dac VinS-s-screw you! I only listen to DOUBLE MUSIC!Registered Userregular
Take a look at the history. He put it in there himself. Someone will fix it sooner or later, although for now I only commented on it in its discussion page because it's funny.
When you set up a personal area on your page asking for grudges, it's sort of invited that mean things may get said about you.
Haha, naturally. I'm just concerned that you are taking offense where none was meant. I've done so many things at which you should legitimately be taking offense, no need to add in false ones. ;-)
EDIT: This is the worst TotP ever. Of all time.
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SpectrumArcher of InfernoChaldea Rec RoomRegistered Userregular
When you set up a personal area on your page asking for grudges, it's sort of invited that mean things may get said about you.
Haha, naturally. I'm just concerned that you are taking offense where none was meant. I've done so many things at which you should legitimately be taking offense, no need to add in false ones. ;-)
EDIT: This is the worst TotP ever. Of all time.
But I'm taking offense anyway! Who cares if it was for the wrong reasons, right?
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Dac VinS-s-screw you! I only listen to DOUBLE MUSIC!Registered Userregular
edited June 2009
I've done worse.
And this well, scare me into thinking of what people thinks of my person. Am I a good poster? Did my mini-freakout over "WELCOME TO TORAAHFHFSKJD" caused pain?
After seeing ALL the PMs after the game and looking at the potential, personally I feel like this game could have swung in a lot of ways. I think this will be much more balanced in a main style way, but there was a lot of potential for abuse (i.e network infiltrating) on both sides of the board.
When you set up a personal area on your page asking for grudges, it's sort of invited that mean things may get said about you.
Haha, naturally. I'm just concerned that you are taking offense where none was meant. I've done so many things at which you should legitimately be taking offense, no need to add in false ones. ;-)
EDIT: This is the worst TotP ever. Of all time.
But I'm taking offense anyway! Who cares if it was for the wrong reasons, right?
I see what you're doing here. ;-) Quite clever, but I won't be playing that game.
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SpectrumArcher of InfernoChaldea Rec RoomRegistered Userregular
And this well, scare me into thinking of what people thinks of my person. Am I a good poster? Did my mini-freakout over "WELCOME TO TORAAHFHFSKJD" caused pain?
And this well, scare me into thinking of what people thinks of my person. Am I a good poster? Did my mini-freakout over "WELCOME TO TORAAHFHFSKJD" caused pain?
And this well, scare me into thinking of what people thinks of my person. Am I a good poster? Did my mini-freakout over "WELCOME TO TORAAHFHFSKJD" caused pain?
I feel so good!
I feel so good. Welcome to Toran Castle.
I've maimed for less than that. 8-)
If you strike me down, you'll never graduate another spreadsheeter and continue your legacy!
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Dac VinS-s-screw you! I only listen to DOUBLE MUSIC!Registered Userregular
And this well, scare me into thinking of what people thinks of my person. Am I a good poster? Did my mini-freakout over "WELCOME TO TORAAHFHFSKJD" caused pain?
I feel so good!
I feel so good. Welcome to Toran Castle.
I've maimed for less than that. 8-)
If you strike me down, you'll never graduate another spreadsheeter and continue your legacy!
Who said you couldn't spreadsheet with both knee capped? :whistle:
And this well, scare me into thinking of what people thinks of my person. Am I a good poster? Did my mini-freakout over "WELCOME TO TORAAHFHFSKJD" caused pain?
I feel so good!
I feel so good. Welcome to Toran Castle.
I've maimed for less than that. 8-)
If you strike me down, you'll never graduate another spreadsheeter and continue your legacy!
Who said you couldn't spreadsheet with both knee capped? :whistle:
Being pretty and whole is too important to my work! If I sustain any injury, I'll go have a sulk/pout in the corner.
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Dac VinS-s-screw you! I only listen to DOUBLE MUSIC!Registered Userregular
And this well, scare me into thinking of what people thinks of my person. Am I a good poster? Did my mini-freakout over "WELCOME TO TORAAHFHFSKJD" caused pain?
I feel so good!
I feel so good. Welcome to Toran Castle.
I've maimed for less than that. 8-)
If you strike me down, you'll never graduate another spreadsheeter and continue your legacy!
Who said you couldn't spreadsheet with both knee capped? :whistle:
Being pretty and whole is too important to my work! If I sustain any injury, I'll go have a sulk/pout in the corner.
And this well, scare me into thinking of what people thinks of my person. Am I a good poster? Did my mini-freakout over "WELCOME TO TORAAHFHFSKJD" caused pain?
I feel so good!
I feel so good. Welcome to Toran Castle.
I've maimed for less than that. 8-)
If you strike me down, you'll never graduate another spreadsheeter and continue your legacy!
Who said you couldn't spreadsheet with both knee capped? :whistle:
Being pretty and whole is too important to my work! If I sustain any injury, I'll go have a sulk/pout in the corner.
Wait, you're a woman? :!!:
:P
Ascribe to me whatever gender helps you sleep best at night. It matters not.
:winky:
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Dac VinS-s-screw you! I only listen to DOUBLE MUSIC!Registered Userregular
edited June 2009
Well, it's either that or you are a very fruity poet. Which is not exactly a fetish of mine.
Posts
When I realized I directed a kill off of Kime, I became especially suspicious of Kime.. and then he started goading good specials into contacting him... hmmmm
Also, Gandalf, one of the main reasons you got vigged is because you claimed to have bus driven Kime on day 1, when I (the bus driver) was in the good network and saying, "uhm no, that was me. Gandalf is a liar."
I wish you weren't such a liar.
Jesus. It's not like I proclaimed the invention of the Detect-o-matic 3000, guaranteed to find Mafia or your money back. I simply explained why I encouraged dunedain to seer Spectrum.
EDIT: Yeah, Figgy, I understand that. At the time I said it, we weren't sure which side Kime was on, we thought the bus driver might be an evil-aligned player, blah blah blah. Lots of stuff went into that lie, it was a mistake, etc.
There is a mafia population of 20% in a particular game.
kime claims to be evil in the thread.
What are the odds that kime is evil?
And for the logic in general: coming to the correct end does not confirm that the reasonings were sound.
The post made you put in a seering and it nailed a mafia, but it is not based on anything that leads to a higher accuracy or Eri-math.
Thanks for the condescension though, it means the world.
At that point I had already decided on Spectrum or Spork anyway, with a placeholder on Spectrum. Also Spectrum, in retrospect I think you're playstyle was slightly different than it was in Scarlet Witch. Not actually noticeable, but I was focused enough on trying to find evidence of you being evil in that game it boiled over into this one. Plus you were on the short list of possible mouthpieces at that point.
And GtC was lead to believe he was a little more involved in decision making later in the game than he actually was(result of lying to be.....taban/nu/whatever the fuck you are :P ).
Fair enough. You would have been a fool to do any different.
If my playstyle was different between here and Touhou, it's probably because you're dealing with such a small sample size. I'm not going to deny I was going after you in that game to put pressure on other people and see who would be drawn out, so I was expecting a bit of reciprocation. Of course you end up being seer in this game!
Setting me up as the mouthpiece always ends hilariously. Seriously, go take a look at the Fire Emblem game. It may or may not end well, but it will always end hilariously. I think I was also somewhat mouthpiece-ish during Suiko after our other ones died and I ended up winning the Transfer vote on the Front Gate. *That* was hilarious with the post restriction.
I'm wondering if I was as obvious in this game as I was in Scarlet Devil.
Although, in the future, you may wish to be more careful as if I hadn't been bluffing, you just painted a big target on yourself.
Does the vote ever go first? I mean, even in the fucking wiki it says the bus driver usually guards by targeting the vote winner. Not only that, but I was not allowed to target myself, which is another bus driver-ish thing to be able to do.
Apparently in 65mil BC I could have, but I guess Dun forgot to tell me in my PM :P
Especially if it's typical that the vote goes first, then that would almost never work.
You're misunderstanding what he wrote. Everything he wrote had a chance to happen in those eras, but only the bolded made their rolls.
I wasn't, in that post, referring to my skill and strategy, which are doubtful at best. I just enjoy the game. I was simply stating that the game, as constructed, did not lean heavily toward a victory for any particular party, and therefore that any loss, suckage, victory or success could not legitimately be blamed on the mechanics. It all came down to player decisions.
That is all I said, that is all I meant, and perhaps people should not take things so seriously.
Saying "it all came down to player decisions" is a meaningless cop-out. Everything in any game comes down to player decisions. But available information and the payoffs guide those decisions in different ways, especially with hidden mechanics secretly punishing what seems to be the most reasonable action.
I'll not comment on whether I *actually* think the game was balanced or not, though. Not yet, at least.
The remark was primarily in response to people prematurely complaining about supposedly imbalanced and "fucked" mechanics. You may say that my remark, in defense of the game and its host, was ill-timed. I am of the opinion, however, that all the whining taking place was much more ill-timed.
Hold on, they keep tracks of those?
http://www.orokos.com/phalla/Andrew_Ryan
Take a look at the history. He put it in there himself. Someone will fix it sooner or later, although for now I only commented on it in its discussion page because it's funny.
Haha, naturally. I'm just concerned that you are taking offense where none was meant. I've done so many things at which you should legitimately be taking offense, no need to add in false ones. ;-)
EDIT: This is the worst TotP ever. Of all time.
And this well, scare me into thinking of what people thinks of my person. Am I a good poster? Did my mini-freakout over "WELCOME TO TORAAHFHFSKJD" caused pain?
Did I mention that I hate neutral seers?
I see what you're doing here. ;-) Quite clever, but I won't be playing that game.
I feel so good. Welcome to Toran Castle.
I've maimed for less than that. 8-)
Who said you couldn't spreadsheet with both knee capped? :whistle:
Wait, you're a woman? :!!:
All of you people who believed I had made that up off the top of my head, screw you.
You guys should trust me more.
If it makes you feel any better, we believed you, and role-blocked you for the night because of it.
Which got me killed, since Infidel was now free to target me. :?
Hey.
You wanna hear something funny?
I never even sent in a guard order. I remembered that I wasn't a villager 10 minutes too late.