Don't even bother with Ellis. And really the second two are both interesting, but in such different literary categories that it's difficult to compare.
I enjoyed American Psycho, though. And I own the book now so I probably ought to read it.
Rules of Attraction just has this annoying tendency to drone on and on about how the characters are taking experimenting with drugs and sex too far, so much that the plot disappears under it.
I've been searching for pynchon's books for a while, though. For some reason most bookstores don't seem to have his works, or have them in a section where I wouldn't think to look or something.
I've only read The Crying of Lot 49 by him, which I found to be good but a little noisy. I mean, the idea is that you're following a woman who may or may not be entirely psychotic and paranoid, so the book does a good job of communicating that overt sense of potential insanity, but it was still an awful lot of characters and an awful lot of scene shifts for such a short book.
The part with the play, though, was entirely amazing.
I have Gravity's Rainbow hanging out on my desk waiting for me to finish with ol' Foster Wallace.
Charles Kinbote on
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StraightziHere we may reign secure, and in my choice,To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered Userregular
edited July 2009
Shank do you wanna talk about Hard-Boiled Wonderland and the End of the World
Because that is a thing I would talk about
It is my favorite of the three books of his I've read
Uh...I often take too long to post, get distracted by other things and such.
Then the post I'm responding to ends up on the previous page, and I look like a crazy person.
Or I am a crazy person.
Take your pick.
moocow on
PS4:MrZoompants
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StraightziHere we may reign secure, and in my choice,To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered Userregular
edited July 2009
Now did you consider the two stories to be happening concurrently or for one of them to follow the other? Because I could see both as being pretty believable (The End of The World following Hard-Boiled Wonderland), and while I initially read it as the two stories happening at the same time, just one taking place within his mind and the other in the real world, I actually see the second story following the first when I think back to it.
I have no doubt that The End of the World followed Hard-Boiled Wonderland
I mean obviously the first time I read it I basically figured I didn't know what was going on, but as the skull and the librarian and such came out it became obvious it was the same character
and as soon as it turned out that
he was going to be locked within his mind
the pieces fell into place for me. I mean, his shadow talking to him at the end? The way Hard-Boiled Wonderland ended? I don't think it's even up for interpretation - I have no doubt whatsoever that Murakami clearly intended for things to fall that way.
There is, however, an aspect that I think is more suited to personal interpretation:
Whether EotW's protagonist is the same as H-BW's protagonist, or whether the shadow is H-BW's protagonist manifested in his own mind.
The really interesting part of this is the implications; at the end of EotW, when the shadow goes into the whirlpool, does H-BW's protagonist return to consciousness by virtue of the strict regimen he enforces upon his mind (as the change-pocket thing kinda foreshadows, in my opinion)? Or is the shadow going into the whirlpool really just his last grasp at hope while he resigns himself to the eternally instantaneous coma he enters at the end of H-BW?
but as far as the order of the stories, I'm absolutely certain that EotW is a continuation of H-BW. It's not even hinted at - it's basically just outright stated.
Charles Kinbote on
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StraightziHere we may reign secure, and in my choice,To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered Userregular
I have no doubt that The End of the World followed Hard-Boiled Wonderland
I mean obviously the first time I read it I basically figured I didn't know what was going on, but as the skull and the librarian and such came out it became obvious it was the same character
and as soon as it turned out that
he was going to be locked within his mind
the pieces fell into place for me. I mean, his shadow talking to him at the end? The way Hard-Boiled Wonderland ended? I don't think it's even up for interpretation - I have no doubt whatsoever that Murakami clearly intended for things to fall that way.
There is, however, an aspect that I think is more suited to personal interpretation:
Whether EotW's protagonist is the same as H-BW's protagonist, or whether the shadow is H-BW's protagonist manifested in his own mind.
The really interesting part of this is the implications; at the end of EotW, when the shadow goes into the whirlpool, does H-BW's protagonist return to consciousness by virtue of the strict regimen he enforces upon his mind (as the change-pocket thing kinda foreshadows, in my opinion)? Or is the shadow going into the whirlpool really just his last grasp at hope while he resigns himself to the eternally instantaneous coma he enters at the end of H-BW?
but as far as the order of the stories, I'm absolutely certain that EotW is a continuation of H-BW. It's not even hinted at - it's basically just outright stated.
Hm, alright.
I saw EotW as the actual process that was running in his mind originally, y'know, the time bomb that got implanted there, and it's running through this situation, which can mean that the loss of his shadow at the end of it is him slipping into a coma.
When I see it as EotW following H-BW though, I definitely consider the shadow slipping into the whirlpool as him being able to return to consciousness.
if you consider the protagonist of EotW to be the timebomb itself and the shadow to be the protagonist of H-BW, the end of EotW could be the timebomb actually gently and smoothly slipping the protagonist of H-BW into oblivion
but if you look at it as EotW following H-BW, it's important to think about what the shadow symbolizes. Knowledge, for he is the only outsider that understands the town. The protagonist's previous life. Also, being a shadow, he is intrinsically "secondary" - he is necessarily inferior to EotW's protagonist. However, by all rights, he shouldn't be - he's knowledgeable, motivated, and far more likable. These things together suggest that the shadow is the remnant of H-BW's protagonist; he is active where EotW's prot is passive, lucid rather than hazy, motivated rather than (largely) apathetic.
Thus, when EotW's prot decides not to join his shadow in the whirlpool, he may not be foregoing returning to the "real" world - he may, in reality, be choosing half-life over suicide. The whirlpool may be freedom only in the form of death - thus, when the shadow (or the proper consciousness) slips into the water, he is not returning to the physical world, but rather leaving H-BW's mind altogether, and in fact disappearing. Thus, all that is left behind is EotW's prot (also known as the subconscious) - passive, sterile and only a shade of his former life.
I don't like actually deciding what I think the answer is, because not deciding is far more thought-provoking
I've only read The Crying of Lot 49 by him, which I found to be good but a little noisy. I mean, the idea is that you're following a woman who may or may not be entirely psychotic and paranoid, so the book does a good job of communicating that overt sense of potential insanity, but it was still an awful lot of characters and an awful lot of scene shifts for such a short book.
The part with the play, though, was entirely amazing.
I have Gravity's Rainbow hanging out on my desk waiting for me to finish with ol' Foster Wallace.
Man, if you thought Crying of Lot 49 was too busy, don't even bother attempting Gravity's Rainbow.
In fact, maybe take a pass on Pynchon just in general.
Massive casts of characters and narratives that can only charitably be called "plots" are sorta his thing. I dig it, but it certainly ain't for everybody. If you like your books to be tightly-woven tales, you're gonna be disappointed. "Sprawling mess" is a better way to describe Pynchon, and I mean that as a compliment
Lost Salientblink twiceif you'd like me to mercy kill youRegistered Userregular
edited July 2009
Mason & Dixon blew my mind into little pieces. Has anyone else read that?
Also, Shank, you need to read Kafka on the Shore. I've already talked it apart with my friends back home, but I feel like I could use even more talking it apart.
Lost Salient on
"Sandra has a good solid anti-murderer vibe. My skin felt very secure and sufficiently attached to my body when I met her. Also my organs." HAIL SATAN
I've only read The Crying of Lot 49 by him, which I found to be good but a little noisy. I mean, the idea is that you're following a woman who may or may not be entirely psychotic and paranoid, so the book does a good job of communicating that overt sense of potential insanity, but it was still an awful lot of characters and an awful lot of scene shifts for such a short book.
The part with the play, though, was entirely amazing.
I have Gravity's Rainbow hanging out on my desk waiting for me to finish with ol' Foster Wallace.
Man, if you thought Crying of Lot 49 was too busy, don't even bother attempting Gravity's Rainbow.
In fact, maybe take a pass on Pynchon just in general.
Massive casts of characters and narratives that can only charitably be called "plots" are sorta his thing. I dig it, but it certainly ain't for everybody. If you like your books to be tightly-woven tales, you're gonna be disappointed. "Sprawling mess" is a better way to describe Pynchon, and I mean that as a compliment
well the thing about TCL49 is that I didn't hate it. I kinda liked it, but I kinda need to fall into Pynchon's pace a little more
that's why I want to read Gravity's Rainbow - not because I loved TCL49 so much, but just because I want to have another chance to go his speed. as it is, I enjoyed TCL49 as a literature major and not a reader - I respect what it did, I found the prose, for the most part, interesting - now I want to see if I can actually like Pynchon and not just find academic interest in his writing. Even if it doesn't work out, I enjoy reading his stuff enough that I will continue to do so, even if it doesn't really resonate with me personally.
also I've been refining my novel idea (heh) lately, which is a lot of fun.
Lost Salientblink twiceif you'd like me to mercy kill youRegistered Userregular
edited July 2009
I feel your pain. I went to every English bookstore I know of on Thursday, and it's just bizarre what they stock and don't stock. An entire row of Thomas Pynchon, yes. The collected works of James Patterson, of course. All of the Fables trades that have been released to date? Yes.
Anything by the seven or eight authors I'd written down? Not a chance.
Lost Salient on
"Sandra has a good solid anti-murderer vibe. My skin felt very secure and sufficiently attached to my body when I met her. Also my organs." HAIL SATAN
my local library doesn't have any Dresden Files and it only has one G.K. Chesterton book
on the other hand, it does have the collected works of Clive Cussler
sigh
Is he the guy that has all the sea novels? I just see rows and rows of submarines and ships.
Prohass on
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Lost Salientblink twiceif you'd like me to mercy kill youRegistered Userregular
edited July 2009
The publisher I worked for when I did my internship back in the day owned a converted barn outside of D.C. When you walked inside and turned left, the entire half of the structure was ceiling-to-floor bookshelves on both barn walls. It was amazing. I'd love to have something like that someday.
Lost Salient on
"Sandra has a good solid anti-murderer vibe. My skin felt very secure and sufficiently attached to my body when I met her. Also my organs." HAIL SATAN
he wrote the book Sahara, that they made into a movie with Matthew McConaughey?
he writes daring adventure stories starring Dirk Pitt (yes, that is his hero's name)
he's like a cross between Tom Clancy and Dan Brown, and even more terrible
the one book of his I read (Valhalla Rising), he wrote himself into it as a world-travelling guy on a yacht who shows up to lend some invaluable help to the hero at a critical point in the story
I feel your pain. I went to every English bookstore I know of on Thursday, and it's just bizarre what they stock and don't stock. An entire row of Thomas Pynchon, yes. The collected works of James Patterson, of course. All of the Fables trades that have been released to date? Yes.
Anything by the seven or eight authors I'd written down? Not a chance.
he wrote the book Sahara, that they made into a movie with Matthew McConaughey?
he writes daring adventure stories starring Dirk Pitt (yes, that is his hero's name)
he's like a cross between Tom Clancy and Dan Brown, and even more terrible
the one book of his I read (Valhalla Rising), he wrote himself into it as a world-travelling guy on a yacht who shows up to lend some invaluable help to the hero at a critical point in the story
I know what I'm getting on my next trip to the library!
he wrote the book Sahara, that they made into a movie with Matthew McConaughey?
he writes daring adventure stories starring Dirk Pitt (yes, that is his hero's name)
he's like a cross between Tom Clancy and Dan Brown, and even more terrible
the one book of his I read (Valhalla Rising), he wrote himself into it as a world-travelling guy on a yacht who shows up to lend some invaluable help to the hero at a critical point in the story
haha wow
I've pretty much read every single Dirk Pitt novel he has ever written
Hard-Boiled Wonderland and the End of the World, honestly.
It's well-written, but it's also light and quirky - the events are goofy enough that it doesn't require a big force of will to get through. I also feel like it didn't accomplish as much as Wind-Up Bird Chronicles, but that's the sacrifice.
and PI, I sure do wish that is more what these threads were like
I started with Wind-Up Bird Chronicle. It reads a little like a prison-- or a gulag--, but also, like a gulag, once you make it past that, the rest of his books are a cinch-- and it's an amazing book, which is where this metaphor ends. I really should re-read it.
But, uh, yeah, there's a chance it could break you. Mind breakage is a distinct possibility.
Posts
Lolita is so very something I have to read
I liked it, although the writer's apparently an industrial strength douche
it took a bit too long to get going and the ending wasn't an ending, but hey, origin story and all that
I've only read The Crying of Lot 49 by him, which I found to be good but a little noisy. I mean, the idea is that you're following a woman who may or may not be entirely psychotic and paranoid, so the book does a good job of communicating that overt sense of potential insanity, but it was still an awful lot of characters and an awful lot of scene shifts for such a short book.
The part with the play, though, was entirely amazing.
I have Gravity's Rainbow hanging out on my desk waiting for me to finish with ol' Foster Wallace.
Because that is a thing I would talk about
It is my favorite of the three books of his I've read
I used to like it a lot more than I did before the second readthrough, but it's still one of my favorite twenty or thirty books
the main character's perspective in the Hard-Boiled Wonderland segments was absolutely incredibly well-conveyed
We don't need no Sirens of Titan all up ins.
PS4:MrZoompants
Then the post I'm responding to ends up on the previous page, and I look like a crazy person.
Or I am a crazy person.
Take your pick.
PS4:MrZoompants
I mean obviously the first time I read it I basically figured I didn't know what was going on, but as the skull and the librarian and such came out it became obvious it was the same character
and as soon as it turned out that
the pieces fell into place for me. I mean, his shadow talking to him at the end? The way Hard-Boiled Wonderland ended? I don't think it's even up for interpretation - I have no doubt whatsoever that Murakami clearly intended for things to fall that way.
There is, however, an aspect that I think is more suited to personal interpretation:
The really interesting part of this is the implications; at the end of EotW, when the shadow goes into the whirlpool, does H-BW's protagonist return to consciousness by virtue of the strict regimen he enforces upon his mind (as the change-pocket thing kinda foreshadows, in my opinion)? Or is the shadow going into the whirlpool really just his last grasp at hope while he resigns himself to the eternally instantaneous coma he enters at the end of H-BW?
but as far as the order of the stories, I'm absolutely certain that EotW is a continuation of H-BW. It's not even hinted at - it's basically just outright stated.
Hm, alright.
When I see it as EotW following H-BW though, I definitely consider the shadow slipping into the whirlpool as him being able to return to consciousness.
but if you look at it as EotW following H-BW, it's important to think about what the shadow symbolizes. Knowledge, for he is the only outsider that understands the town. The protagonist's previous life. Also, being a shadow, he is intrinsically "secondary" - he is necessarily inferior to EotW's protagonist. However, by all rights, he shouldn't be - he's knowledgeable, motivated, and far more likable. These things together suggest that the shadow is the remnant of H-BW's protagonist; he is active where EotW's prot is passive, lucid rather than hazy, motivated rather than (largely) apathetic.
Thus, when EotW's prot decides not to join his shadow in the whirlpool, he may not be foregoing returning to the "real" world - he may, in reality, be choosing half-life over suicide. The whirlpool may be freedom only in the form of death - thus, when the shadow (or the proper consciousness) slips into the water, he is not returning to the physical world, but rather leaving H-BW's mind altogether, and in fact disappearing. Thus, all that is left behind is EotW's prot (also known as the subconscious) - passive, sterile and only a shade of his former life.
I don't like actually deciding what I think the answer is, because not deciding is far more thought-provoking
Man, if you thought Crying of Lot 49 was too busy, don't even bother attempting Gravity's Rainbow.
In fact, maybe take a pass on Pynchon just in general.
Massive casts of characters and narratives that can only charitably be called "plots" are sorta his thing. I dig it, but it certainly ain't for everybody. If you like your books to be tightly-woven tales, you're gonna be disappointed. "Sprawling mess" is a better way to describe Pynchon, and I mean that as a compliment
His style is definitely unique
Also, Shank, you need to read Kafka on the Shore. I've already talked it apart with my friends back home, but I feel like I could use even more talking it apart.
"Sandra has a good solid anti-murderer vibe. My skin felt very secure and sufficiently attached to my body when I met her. Also my organs." HAIL SATAN
i was never much of a poet but at the very least i always crammed a lot of irrelevant theory into my otherwise misdirected narratives
this is just an epic and that's my only real aim
well the thing about TCL49 is that I didn't hate it. I kinda liked it, but I kinda need to fall into Pynchon's pace a little more
that's why I want to read Gravity's Rainbow - not because I loved TCL49 so much, but just because I want to have another chance to go his speed. as it is, I enjoyed TCL49 as a literature major and not a reader - I respect what it did, I found the prose, for the most part, interesting - now I want to see if I can actually like Pynchon and not just find academic interest in his writing. Even if it doesn't work out, I enjoy reading his stuff enough that I will continue to do so, even if it doesn't really resonate with me personally.
also I've been refining my novel idea (heh) lately, which is a lot of fun.
on the other hand, it does have the collected works of Clive Cussler
sigh
Anything by the seven or eight authors I'd written down? Not a chance.
"Sandra has a good solid anti-murderer vibe. My skin felt very secure and sufficiently attached to my body when I met her. Also my organs." HAIL SATAN
I've pretty much filled up the ones I have
Is he the guy that has all the sea novels? I just see rows and rows of submarines and ships.
"Sandra has a good solid anti-murderer vibe. My skin felt very secure and sufficiently attached to my body when I met her. Also my organs." HAIL SATAN
he writes daring adventure stories starring Dirk Pitt (yes, that is his hero's name)
he's like a cross between Tom Clancy and Dan Brown, and even more terrible
the one book of his I read (Valhalla Rising), he wrote himself into it as a world-travelling guy on a yacht who shows up to lend some invaluable help to the hero at a critical point in the story
I really need to do a bit of an audit and work out what I can store in a spare closet, or something
Try the Garrett PI books by Glen Cook. They are about a detective in a mystical world.
Fables is pretty dang good
I know what I'm getting on my next trip to the library!
PS4:MrZoompants
haha wow
I've pretty much read every single Dirk Pitt novel he has ever written
I'm the worst kind of person
If a man were to read Nietzsche, what Nietzsche should he read?
Thus Spake Zarathustra
It's well-written, but it's also light and quirky - the events are goofy enough that it doesn't require a big force of will to get through. I also feel like it didn't accomplish as much as Wind-Up Bird Chronicles, but that's the sacrifice.
and PI, I sure do wish that is more what these threads were like
But, uh, yeah, there's a chance it could break you. Mind breakage is a distinct possibility.
PS4:MrZoompants