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Death. Thoughts?

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Posts

  • MagicPrimeMagicPrime FiresideWizard Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Fuck. Can you convert that to metric?

    MagicPrime on
    BNet • magicprime#1430 | PSN/Steam • MagicPrime | Origin • FireSideWizard
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  • ShadeShade Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    MagicPrime wrote: »
    Fuck. Can you convert that to metric?

    5.38 bullshitons

    Shade on
  • CmdPromptCmdPrompt Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    ObiFett wrote: »
    Raiden333 wrote: »
    ObiFett wrote: »

    They are quantifiable to me.

    d...do you even know what that word means?

    also, are you ignoring my earlier post directed at you and tuba for a reason?

    Measurable? Defineable? How are feelings not measurable or defineable to the person who is feeling them?
    Feelings are most certainly definable, but that does not make them measurable to a high enough degree of accuracy to satisfy a proof. For that to happen, 5 units one day should be 5 units the next, something that just doesn't happen when you're working with feelings.

    The only way to come up with something approaching an empirical proof is to use a large enough sample size of people. Obviously we find that the same feelings you're experiencing will produce drastically varying results depending on the individual - unless you only pick people who come up with the same result you do, which is entirely retarded.

    CmdPrompt on
    GxewS.png
  • ObiFettObiFett Use the Force As You WishRegistered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Raiden333 wrote: »
    ObiFett wrote: »
    Why does that need to be spelled out?

    Because I'm having difficulty understanding the difference between you and a follower of any other religion. You say "do this experiment and you'll see I'm right," but others can say the same thing. I'm trying to figure out what is unique about your side that the other side doesn't have, since you feel that their answers are wrong.

    Also: You tell people to try your experiment to see that you're right. If a follower of a different faith asked you to do the same type of experiment (but of a different nature, obviously) to prove to you that their deity existed, would you be willing to give it as much of an honest effort as you put into the experiment that proved your own faith true to you?

    And if so, what would it mean to you if you found that similar feelings to the ones stirred by your own experiment were raised in you by this new one?

    The difference is that one contains pure truth, the others contain some truth mixed with fragmented, distorted truth.

    I have "tested out" other religions' claims. I was athiest for a bit, then decided there has to be something. So I was all over the place religiously for years. Tested out e'rything and this is completely different. But again, I can't prove this to anyone else.

    That's why (for the third time) this really doesn't belong in "Debate and Discourse" because it can't be truly debated according to logical standards. Maybe Philosophical standards, but not true debating standards which alot of people are trying to hold this thread up to.

    ObiFett on
  • ObiFettObiFett Use the Force As You WishRegistered User regular
    edited June 2009
    CmdPrompt wrote: »

    Feelings are most certainly definable, but that does not make them measurable to a high enough degree of accuracy to satisfy a proof. For that to happen, 5 units one day should be 5 units the next, something that just doesn't happen when you're working with feelings.

    To who?

    You? Most definitely not.

    To me? I can most certainly quantify my feelings enough to prove something to myself.

    ObiFett on
  • BolthornBolthorn Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    ObiFett wrote: »
    CmdPrompt wrote: »

    Feelings are most certainly definable, but that does not make them measurable to a high enough degree of accuracy to satisfy a proof. For that to happen, 5 units one day should be 5 units the next, something that just doesn't happen when you're working with feelings.

    To who?

    You? Most definitely not.

    To me? I can most certainly quantify my feelings enough to prove something to myself.

    I think that might be delusion though right?

    Bolthorn on
  • Raiden333Raiden333 Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Bolthorn wrote: »
    ObiFett wrote: »
    CmdPrompt wrote: »

    Feelings are most certainly definable, but that does not make them measurable to a high enough degree of accuracy to satisfy a proof. For that to happen, 5 units one day should be 5 units the next, something that just doesn't happen when you're working with feelings.

    To who?

    You? Most definitely not.

    To me? I can most certainly quantify my feelings enough to prove something to myself.

    I think that might be delusion though right?

    I think the argument goes that he can quantify his feelings accurately enough to know that he can accurately quantify his feelings. It's all one big circle.

    Raiden333 on
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  • ShadeShade Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    So how about death guys? Pretty awesome huh?

    Shade on
  • CmdPromptCmdPrompt Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    ObiFett wrote: »
    CmdPrompt wrote: »

    Feelings are most certainly definable, but that does not make them measurable to a high enough degree of accuracy to satisfy a proof. For that to happen, 5 units one day should be 5 units the next, something that just doesn't happen when you're working with feelings.

    To who?

    You? Most definitely not.

    To me? I can most certainly quantify my feelings enough to prove something to myself.
    You really shouldn't be using words like "empirical proof" when what you really mean is "self-justification."

    CmdPrompt on
    GxewS.png
  • BolthornBolthorn Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Raiden333 wrote: »
    Bolthorn wrote: »
    ObiFett wrote: »
    CmdPrompt wrote: »

    Feelings are most certainly definable, but that does not make them measurable to a high enough degree of accuracy to satisfy a proof. For that to happen, 5 units one day should be 5 units the next, something that just doesn't happen when you're working with feelings.

    To who?

    You? Most definitely not.

    To me? I can most certainly quantify my feelings enough to prove something to myself.

    I think that might be delusion though right?

    I think the argument goes that he can quantify his feelings accurately enough to know that he can accurately quantify his feelings. It's all one big circle.


    Which I find delusional. Like, "I know he loves me but he just doesn't realize it" stalker kind of delusional.

    Late to the thread, but finally caught up and wow did this deviate.

    Anyhow, after death. I hope I'm buried in a burlap sack in the forest somewhere. Seriously, entombing me in a coffin and then placing that in a bunch of concrete is wasting resources. I could be used as fuel for some other living organism.

    Bolthorn on
  • ObiFettObiFett Use the Force As You WishRegistered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Shade wrote: »
    So how about death guys? Pretty awesome huh?

    Yep. But is it awesomer dying doing something you hate? Or doing something you love?

    ObiFett on
  • FCDFCD Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Bolthorn wrote: »
    Anyhow, after death. I hope I'm buried in a burlap sack in the forest somewhere. Seriously, entombing me in a coffin and then placing that in a bunch of concrete is wasting resources. I could be used as fuel for some other living organism.

    I rather like that sentiment, too. After I'm gone, and whatever useable organs of mine are given to those in need, I'd like the remainder of my body to be buried under a tree, ideally one that gives fruit. So part of me would be giving back to the world for years to come.

    FCD on
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  • BolthornBolthorn Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    FCD wrote: »
    I rather like that sentiment, too. After I'm gone, and whatever useable organs of mine are given to those in need, I'd the remainder of my body to buried under a tree, ideally one that gives fruit. So part of me would be back to the world for years to come.

    I didn't even think about a fruit tree. Good call.

    Bolthorn on
  • Raiden333Raiden333 Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Ever since I was a little kid and first understood death, I never got the idea of "protecting" your dead body. It's going to degrade into nothingness eventually, why not let it be useful to others?

    This might sound totally weird, but when I saw it, I didn't think Soylent Green was terrifying or gross at all. As long as it's processed enough to be safe from diseases and adds enough of a buffer (i.e. converted to a form appealing to the senses) so that you're not always thinking about how your dinner might actually be Aunt Martha, it seems to be a good system for society to implement to save resources.

    Raiden333 on
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  • ObiFettObiFett Use the Force As You WishRegistered User regular
    edited June 2009
    K, so me being delusional will be the end of this? Awesome.

    Look forward to seeing you guys in the next life. We'll laugh soo hard about this...

    ObiFett on
  • FCDFCD Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Also, that thing where your ashes are compressed into a diamond seems neat to me. You could make yourself into an heirloom for your family. Your great-great-great-grandson could use you to propose to his sweetheart oneday. Oddly romantic.

    FCD on
    Gridman! Baby DAN DAN! Baby DAN DAN!
  • Raiden333Raiden333 Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    ObiFett wrote: »
    K, so me being delusional will be the end of this? Awesome.

    Look forward to seeing you guys in the next life. We'll laugh soo hard about this...

    to be fair it is pretty delusional to think that a discussion will go anywhere when your only point is "I can't prove it to you but I can prove it to myself, therefore it is universally true."

    You said it yourself, that kind of thing doesn't belong on this forum, and we shouldn't have spent so long on it.

    Raiden333 on
    There was a steam sig here. It's gone now.
  • ObiFettObiFett Use the Force As You WishRegistered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Raiden333 wrote: »
    ObiFett wrote: »
    K, so me being delusional will be the end of this? Awesome.

    Look forward to seeing you guys in the next life. We'll laugh soo hard about this...

    to be fair it is pretty delusional to think that a discussion will go anywhere when your only point is "I can't prove it to you but I can prove it to myself, therefore it is universally true."

    You said it yourself, that kind of thing doesn't belong on this forum, and we shouldn't have spent so long on it.

    I get where you guys are coming from and agree it needed to/wanted it to end. It was pleasantly suprisingly not heated so I just wanted to end it on a good note. :mrgreen:

    ObiFett on
  • DVGDVG No. 1 Honor Student Nether Institute, Evil AcademyRegistered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Raiden333 wrote: »
    Ever since I was a little kid and first understood death, I never got the idea of "protecting" your dead body. It's going to degrade into nothingness eventually, why not let it be useful to others?

    This might sound totally weird, but when I saw it, I didn't think Soylent Green was terrifying or gross at all. As long as it's processed enough to be safe from diseases and adds enough of a buffer (i.e. converted to a form appealing to the senses) so that you're not always thinking about how your dinner might actually be Aunt Martha, it seems to be a good system for society to implement to save resources.

    I agree, but I take the "Donate my organs to whatever useful cause I can" stance on the issue.

    DVG on
    Diablo 3 - DVG#1857
  • DVGDVG No. 1 Honor Student Nether Institute, Evil AcademyRegistered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Raiden333 wrote: »
    Because I'm having difficulty understanding the difference between you and a follower of any other religion.

    My mom wanted me to justify my atheism once. I said "Take a man who knows nothing of any religion of any kind, put him in a room with all the information of All Gods and religions ever and say 'Pick One or None'"

    DVG on
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  • Raiden333Raiden333 Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    DVG wrote: »
    Raiden333 wrote: »
    Because I'm having difficulty understanding the difference between you and a follower of any other religion.

    My mom wanted me to justify my atheism once. I said "Take a man who knows nothing of any religion of any kind, put him in a room with all the information of All Gods and religions ever and say 'Pick One or None'"

    That's how I saw it too. That's why I threw in with Eris. She's funny and doesn't expect too much of me, and I return the favor.

    Raiden333 on
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  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited June 2009
    ObiFett wrote: »
    If you re-read the posts on this page you will see that I hold that feelings can be used as source of something to be "reasoned" upon. Since I take them as empirical proof to be reasoned upon, I can then prove to myself (important distinction as I am not proving it to anyone else) that God exists by judging, predicting, inferring, generalizing, and comparing those feelings.

    1) Feelings as empirical proof.

    I'll grant that feelings can be considered empirical. I'll grant that one can have the feeling of there being a God. But I have yet to discern how your "feel there is a God" can make the step to "there is, in fact, a God". It would be interesting to know how you make the "feeling" claim to the "factual" claim. I have, in the past, felt like certain women loved me but, in fact, they did not. I'm wondering if your "feeling" of God is open to this same possibility of error and, if not, what makes feelings of the God kind different from the feelings of the relational kind.

    2) Intersubjectivity in proof.

    I'm wondering how "prove to myself" is compelling if you understand God to be an intersubjective being. Presumably intersubjective beings require intersubjective proof. There is a table here which can be verified by many people using intersubjective means of verification. If you think there is a God in the same sense that there is a table why is God's proof not intersubjective whereas the table's proof is intersubjective?

    It would have to be the case, if you can provide self-centered, subjective proof for God yet intersubjective proof for Tables then the existence of these entities would have to be quantifiably different. To say that God exists in the same sense that this table exists is problematic given the different manner by which the existence of these entities is proven.

    Moreover, truths which are not intersubjective and facts which are not intersubjective are largely held to be bunk insofar as universalizing a claim requires universalized proof. I can claim that there is, in fact, a table given the intersubjective proof for the table. If the proof for God is not intersubjective then arguing for there being, in fact, a God becomes tricky at best.

    Think of it this way: If I said to you that I feel that Zeus exists and you say to me that you feel as if Jehova exists it cannot be the case that, in fact, there is both Zeus and Jehova as they are commonly understood. Would you maintain that, in fact, given the law of non-contradiction, it must be the case that either there exists Zeus OR Jehova OR neither and that it is impossible for there to be BOTH Zeus and Jehova? If so, and IF there are feelings for zeus in some people and feelings for jehova in other people, how would you remedy this problem?

    _J_ on
  • Squirminator2kSquirminator2k they/them North Hollywood, CARegistered User regular
    edited June 2009
    DVG wrote: »
    My mom wanted me to justify my atheism once. I said "Take a man who knows nothing of any religion of any kind, put him in a room with all the information of All Gods and religions ever and say 'Pick One or None'"
    My parents are Pagan, as is my Stepmom and a large percentage of my parents' friends. While my Dad doesn't seem to have shown any interest whatsoever in my spiritual upbringing, I get the impression that my Mum is a little disappointed in my lack of faith generally. I think she'd rather I believed in something - anything at all - instead of having no faith.

    Considering my Mum's health, I sometimes wonder if the only reason she wants me to believe in something is so that when she passes away I won't feel as much loss.

    Squirminator2k on
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  • Raiden333Raiden333 Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Actually, since I mentioned Discordianism, I'll take this time to throw out one view on the afterlife I occassionally entertain that was inspired by the Principia.

    When I was extremely young, probably about 3 years old, my parents took me to a carnival. Not Disneyland or anything that stands out like that, just a local carnival in town. But even though I went to Disneyland 2 years later, this experience stands out much, much more in my memory.

    Being a young and unexperienced human, my senses were so overwhelmed by this alien experience of bright light, loud sound, and etc. that for all intents and purposes to me at the moment, the carnival was all that existed. I had no room for thoughts or memories in my mind for anything that wasn't there and then.

    Then, it came time to go home, and I sleepily returned to my normal life full of amazing memories that are still vivid to me, like how scared I was to ride on the pony, or how AMAZING cotton candy was when I tasted it the first time.

    The carnival is this life on earth. It is so overstimulating compared to existence outside of these meat-shells that this life is the only thing that we can process. When we die, we're just returning home from that crazy trip.

    Obviously not the most plausible of theories, but it makes me smile. Which is really the best you can hope for in an after-death theory.

    Raiden333 on
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  • Squirminator2kSquirminator2k they/them North Hollywood, CARegistered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Imagine this scenario.

    Someone, we'll call him Greg, sets a locked box on a table and says to you, "This box is full of happy kittens."

    There's absolutely no sound coming from the box, and you call attention to this fact. Greg smiles and hands you a book which chronicles a number of adventures that the kittens have been on. Frolicking through fields, adventures down at the creek, and long and detailed information about the kittens' mewing and eating habits. He assures you the book was written by a number of people, many of which were first-hand witnesses of the kittens' adventures.

    "This is all well and good," you say, "But this book could've been written by anyone. I mean, I could've written this book."

    "Look," says Greg, "I know it doesn't sound like there are kittens in this box. It's alarmingly quiet in there, and it's really quite light when you hold it. And since nobody has the key to open the box, there's really no way to be sure. You're just going to have to have faith."

    "Why?"

    "Because the book tells you to."

    "Wait, no, hang on. Are you not spotting the logical flaw in your suggestion?"

    "Probably," says Greg, resting a hand on your shoulder. "But I have faith anyway."

    Then Ahmed walks over and says that actually the box is full of excited puppies instead. He is quickly followed by Jon who says that, no, it's a box full of copies of minutes from last week's PTA meeting.

    Squirminator2k on
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  • Raiden333Raiden333 Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Raiden333 wrote: »
    Actually, since I mentioned Discordianism, I'll take this time to throw out one view on the afterlife I occassionally entertain that was inspired by the Principia.

    When I was extremely young, probably about 3 years old, my parents took me to a carnival. Not Disneyland or anything that stands out like that, just a local carnival in town. But even though I went to Disneyland 2 years later, this experience stands out much, much more in my memory.

    Being a young and unexperienced human, my senses were so overwhelmed by this alien experience of bright light, loud sound, and etc. that for all intents and purposes to me at the moment, the carnival was all that existed. I had no room for thoughts or memories in my mind for anything that wasn't there and then.

    Then, it came time to go home, and I sleepily returned to my normal life full of amazing memories that are still vivid to me, like how scared I was to ride on the pony, or how AMAZING cotton candy was when I tasted it the first time.

    The carnival is this life on earth. It is so overstimulating compared to existence outside of these meat-shells that this life is the only thing that we can process. When we die, we're just returning home from that crazy trip.

    Obviously not the most plausible of theories, but it makes me smile. Which is really the best you can hope for in an after-death theory.

    Quoting this because I like this idea too much to let it be BotP'd.

    Raiden333 on
    There was a steam sig here. It's gone now.
  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited June 2009
    @Squirminator2K: You do not have to prove a universal negative; that is impossible; that is not how proof works. The burden of proof lies on the people making the positive claim. Because, again, that is how proof works.

    Apt as your story was, it sort of creates the illusion that the people who claim "X does not exist" have to prove it. And that is not correct. Because, again, that is not how proof works.

    _J_ on
  • Squirminator2kSquirminator2k they/them North Hollywood, CARegistered User regular
    edited June 2009
    _J_ wrote: »
    @Squirminator2K: You do not have to prove a universal negative; that is impossible; that is not how proof works. The burden of proof lies on the people making the positive claim. Because, again, that is how proof works.

    Apt as your story was, it sort of creates the illusion that the people who claim "X does not exist" have to prove it. And that is not correct. Because, again, that is not how proof works.
    That's not the point of the story. The story illustrates that Greg doesn't really have any evidence to support his view, but has decided to take the book at its word and believe that there are kittens in there even when the evidence seems to indicate the contrary. Presumably he's doing this because kittens are nice, or because the idea of a locked box without any kittens in it scares him.

    A sensible person would look at that quiet, lightweight box and think to themselves, "That is probably not a box full of happy kittens."

    Squirminator2k on
    Jump Leads - a scifi-comedy audiodrama podcast
  • Grey GhostGrey Ghost Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    I have absolutely no conception of what might happen to me after death. I've entertained various possibilities, but none have felt more "right" to me than any other (though nothing is the one that makes the most sense, but I don't enjoy thinking about that). I was raised Methodist, but I don't feel in my heart that the world works the way the Bible says it does. But the inquisitive part of me is excited to find out (hopefully many years from now).

    Grey Ghost on
  • LachoneusLachoneus Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Raiden333 wrote: »
    Raiden333 wrote: »
    Actually, since I mentioned Discordianism, I'll take this time to throw out one view on the afterlife I occassionally entertain that was inspired by the Principia.

    When I was extremely young, probably about 3 years old, my parents took me to a carnival. Not Disneyland or anything that stands out like that, just a local carnival in town. But even though I went to Disneyland 2 years later, this experience stands out much, much more in my memory.

    Being a young and unexperienced human, my senses were so overwhelmed by this alien experience of bright light, loud sound, and etc. that for all intents and purposes to me at the moment, the carnival was all that existed. I had no room for thoughts or memories in my mind for anything that wasn't there and then.

    Then, it came time to go home, and I sleepily returned to my normal life full of amazing memories that are still vivid to me, like how scared I was to ride on the pony, or how AMAZING cotton candy was when I tasted it the first time.

    The carnival is this life on earth. It is so overstimulating compared to existence outside of these meat-shells that this life is the only thing that we can process. When we die, we're just returning home from that crazy trip.

    Obviously not the most plausible of theories, but it makes me smile. Which is really the best you can hope for in an after-death theory.

    Quoting this because I like this idea too much to let it be BotP'd.


    thats a pretty fun analogy. i just believe home is going to be different than you ;)

    btw.. thats pretty impressive you can remember that whole experience so well. the earliest memory i have is being potty trained and my mom placing batman underwear on top of a big ol' dresser and telling me i couldnt use them until i used the "potty". i was sooooo mad.

    but about death? yeah, i would prolly want to go around people who i care about and after having done some amount of good for others. i like the idea of being buried in a place that will help fertalize something. but im not sure my family would be all gung-ho about it. but then again, who cares? it would be a dying wish, right?

    Lachoneus on
    "No women. No kids."
  • Grey GhostGrey Ghost Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    I think I want some kind of badass explosion to be the cause of my death. Or, perhaps, the result.

    And, no joke, if I have time to draw up a will before I die - whenever and however it happens - it will stipulate that there will be an open bar at my funeral, and they must play the loudest, most hard-rockin' music possible (except for one super-sad song sung by one of my female friends), and tell stories about what an awesome guy I was, and etc etc.

    I decided this after I attended the funeral of a friend back in February, which was held at a Baptist church, and was barely about my friend. They turned it into an excuse to continually remind us to turn to Jesus or we would go to hell. If you want to do that in a Sunday service, fine, but it was a complete fucking disgrace to my friend's memory, and it's not going to happen when I pass on.

    Grey Ghost on
  • emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    How can you all be so calm? Help those trapped kittens, you bastards! Someone call a locksmith!!

    emnmnme on
  • Inter_dInter_d Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Imagine this scenario.

    Someone, we'll call him Greg, sets a locked box on a table and says to you, "This box is full of happy kittens."

    There's absolutely no sound coming from the box, and you call attention to this fact. Greg smiles and hands you a book which chronicles a number of adventures that the kittens have been on. Frolicking through fields, adventures down at the creek, and long and detailed information about the kittens' mewing and eating habits. He assures you the book was written by a number of people, many of which were first-hand witnesses of the kittens' adventures.

    "This is all well and good," you say, "But this book could've been written by anyone. I mean, I could've written this book."

    "Look," says Greg, "I know it doesn't sound like there are kittens in this box. It's alarmingly quiet in there, and it's really quite light when you hold it. And since nobody has the key to open the box, there's really no way to be sure. You're just going to have to have faith."

    "Why?"

    "Because the book tells you to."

    "Wait, no, hang on. Are you not spotting the logical flaw in your suggestion?"

    "Probably," says Greg, resting a hand on your shoulder. "But I have faith anyway."

    Then Ahmed walks over and says that actually the box is full of excited puppies instead. He is quickly followed by Jon who says that, no, it's a box full of copies of minutes from last week's PTA meeting.


    *poke*

    "do you have faith that they're at least still alive in there, greg?"

    Inter_d on
  • Squirminator2kSquirminator2k they/them North Hollywood, CARegistered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Inter_d wrote: »
    *poke*

    "do you have faith that they're at least still alive in there, greg?"
    This analogy of mine is holding up better than I thought it would. Whether or not the kittens are even alive works well as a metaphor for how dated religious texts like the Bible have become.

    Squirminator2k on
    Jump Leads - a scifi-comedy audiodrama podcast
  • yzzlthtzyzzlthtz Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Matrijs wrote: »
    ObiFett wrote: »
    I felt something and it came true!

    This is called confirmation bias. Consider two hypothetical scenarios:
    1) I have a strange feeling that someone is watching me. I look around. No one is watching me.
    2) I have a strange feeling that someone is watching me. I look around. Someone is watching me!

    Which of these is more memorable? We have strange and irrational feelings about things all the time - we only remember them when they come true, and they give us this sense either that we have magical powers of some kind or that there's some kind of higher power at work or whatever. The truth is, though, that all we're experiencing is coincidence.

    I have a friend who believes that she has some kind of metaphysical powers because sometimes when she's walking down the street at night a streetlight will go out when she's looking at it. Of course, this is absurd, but our brains are wired to find meaning in everything, including in coincidental events which have no meaning. Hence, confirmation bias and magical powers.

    I have a friend who thinks he has magical powers because he has intense visions, goes into trances, has spread euphoria through a room with his eyes, and can tell when someone is pregnant even before they can.

    Just sayin'

    there's magical powers and then there's magical powers.

    yzzlthtz on
    .O
    * \m/
    U
  • yzzlthtzyzzlthtz Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    ObiFett wrote: »
    ObiFett wrote: »
    Asking someone to explain faith or knowledge of God (and hence the afterlife) without feelings is like asking someone to explain calculus theorems without numbers. Its just not possible.

    Yes, and since feelings are in no way an effective basis for making claims about reality, what does this tell you?

    It tells me you don't include spirituality as part of reality.

    What about feelings as part of reality?
    A feeling can be forced, but it can also come on, unexpected.
    I was watching a tv program once, and it wasn't until a certain point that i realized that i had been crying profusely for like 5 minutes. Clearly, there as something there for me and I hadn't even realized what was happening....

    yzzlthtz on
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  • yzzlthtzyzzlthtz Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Speaker wrote: »
    ObiFett wrote: »
    Speaker wrote: »

    Knowledge in what sense?

    Knowledge in the sense that I know the thing that is confirmed to me through feelings is true.

    Aren't you being a little bit arrogant? You have faith, not knowledge. Unless you are claiming some sort of prophetic power.
    I could amend the statement to "sometimes feelings strengthen my belief in something while other times truth is given through feelings". Alot of the examples I have are actually very special to me so I hope you understand me not wanting to type them on the internet. But a more basic example could be the following:
    - I was one of those LDS Missionaries that went around knocking on doors and stuff. In one of my areas the wards (congregations) we were assigned to only consisted of married students. Literally. You had to be married and a student to go to this ward. So the people we could teach had to be able to go to this ward. This limited us to only a very small percentage of a very large city. We would literally knock on doors and never run across one married couple that was also attended the university. At the end of one day, while in the car (yeah, I never had to ride a bike) I was just really sick of not meeting anyone who we could actually teach. In one of my most sincere prayers in my life, I asked that we be directed to just one non-member married student family. I just wanted one chance to talk to someone that could be taught by us. I felt nothing. Eh, I thought, I guess we're done for the day. About 3 minutes later, we passed a group of houses and I had one of the strongest feelings like I should knock on a specific house and we would meet someone there we could teach. We knocked, and sure enough it was a non-member married student family. A feeling in that instance = knowledge of something I could not have known in any other way.

    Yeah, and when I was meditating alot and following Sant Mat I asked God to make a flower plant that hadn't even budded yet to bloom the next day, and it did. And I asked for a sign of falling stars and there were falling stars. And I even had experiences like the one you just described.

    But these are pretty lame signs, aren't they? Flower plants bloom, stars fall, married people live in houses with doors. Ever seen a column of fire descend out of the night sky? Me neither. God seems rather reticent on giving signs that are unambiguously signs, and not coincidences.
    The reality is that I have had my own feeling deceive me plenty of times. The difference is that I knew they were my own feelings prior to the results of that feeling. But, I have also had many experiences feeling something that can not be generated by my own physiology. This has been proven to me time and time again to come from God.

    I find that unconvincing, for the simple reason that many people with contradictory religious beliefs, including myself, have also had profound religious feelings outside of everyday emotion. I have also undergone one or two serious bouts of depression, and I'm aware that what I "know" with certainty can be a fickle and untrue foundation.

    No more Sant Mat, then?

    yzzlthtz on
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  • yzzlthtzyzzlthtz Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Shade wrote: »
    tubaloth wrote: »
    Tastyfish wrote: »
    Ah, fair enough.

    Lot of people are going to take issue with that last bit though, as I'd say the scientific method rests pretty heavily on the idea that you can show the evidence to other people rather than being a personal experience. But I know where you're coming from, having felt something similar but coming from the other direction as it were.

    i understand where people might take issue. but they can find their own proof by experimenting themselves. its not limited to just a few people.

    anyone can have this type of an experience or a variation of it and come to the same results. whereas, i cant go and test my theory of molecular blah bla blah blah because i dont have the trainging. people get caught up with the fact that people who believe in God can't prove He exists. We can, so can anyone. The proof and results are in the scriptures and in our daily lives. We share the proof in scriptures and example, through propehts and apostles.

    Just like we accept new scientific discoveries because we accept and trust the scientific method, why can't we accept the belief/knowledge that God exists? I believe new discoveries because i trust the method. Why can't others believe me when I have performed the experiment and they have not?

    (im not sure if what I wanted to say in that last paragraph came out correctly lol)

    I have a feeling does not reality make or I would be getting laid a lot more often.

    An experiment must be re creatable and for a theory to be proven must have the same out come each time.
    You can't do that with a god.
    Notice I said a god? Because every religion is convinced its right and all the others are wrong(with a few exceptions).

    You said the scriptures are proof? Which ones? Most are just as unlikely as the others. With out the ability to prove a god is real in the first place other than I've got a feeling, it becomes a circle jerk of "My god is real and yours isn't".

    And the argument "well something had to create us, it was god" is flawed in that your base assumption is that everything requires a beginning, then what created god? another god?

    Arguing about whether there is a god or an after life is pointless because of both the lack of evidence and the mentality of those arguing for religion of "it doesn't matter what you say".

    It's interesting, because it matters SO MUCH. and yet, no amount of discourse can change the reality of it.
    or...?

    yzzlthtz on
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  • Inter_dInter_d Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    yzzlthtz wrote: »
    Shade wrote: »

    I have a feeling does not reality make or I would be getting laid a lot more often.

    An experiment must be re creatable and for a theory to be proven must have the same out come each time.
    You can't do that with a god.
    Notice I said a god? Because every religion is convinced its right and all the others are wrong(with a few exceptions).

    You said the scriptures are proof? Which ones? Most are just as unlikely as the others. With out the ability to prove a god is real in the first place other than I've got a feeling, it becomes a circle jerk of "My god is real and yours isn't".

    And the argument "well something had to create us, it was god" is flawed in that your base assumption is that everything requires a beginning, then what created god? another god?

    Arguing about whether there is a god or an after life is pointless because of both the lack of evidence and the mentality of those arguing for religion of "it doesn't matter what you say".

    It's interesting, because it matters SO MUCH. and yet, no amount of discourse can change the reality of it.
    or...?


    okay, i'll bite.


    what the fuck are you talking about?

    Inter_d on
  • ShadeShade Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Inter_d wrote: »
    yzzlthtz wrote: »
    Shade wrote: »

    I have a feeling does not reality make or I would be getting laid a lot more often.

    An experiment must be re creatable and for a theory to be proven must have the same out come each time.
    You can't do that with a god.
    Notice I said a god? Because every religion is convinced its right and all the others are wrong(with a few exceptions).

    You said the scriptures are proof? Which ones? Most are just as unlikely as the others. With out the ability to prove a god is real in the first place other than I've got a feeling, it becomes a circle jerk of "My god is real and yours isn't".

    And the argument "well something had to create us, it was god" is flawed in that your base assumption is that everything requires a beginning, then what created god? another god?

    Arguing about whether there is a god or an after life is pointless because of both the lack of evidence and the mentality of those arguing for religion of "it doesn't matter what you say".

    It's interesting, because it matters SO MUCH. and yet, no amount of discourse can change the reality of it.
    or...?


    okay, i'll bite.


    what the fuck are you talking about?

    I think he's just REEEAAALLLLLy late to the party. Sorry we're out of beer, but we do have metaphorical kittens!!

    Shade on
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