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Project Natal - Peter Molyneux wants you to touch his child

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    The_ScarabThe_Scarab Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    JCRooks wrote: »
    Yeah, it's like MS don't want me to believe in their project. Have Molyneux sell me something that looks like an impossible AI? Really?

    You've mentioned Molyneux over and over again. If you don't like the guy, that's fine, but he's only involved in one project that utilizes Natal. Just wanted to point that out. It's not like he's overseeing everything.

    Hasn't he just been promoted to Overlord of MS studios Europe?

    He may not be king of the whole world but he has significant sway within the MGS business does he not?

    The_Scarab on
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    FiggyFiggy Fighter of the night man Champion of the sunRegistered User regular
    edited June 2009
    My webcam could play that karate game 7 years ago.

    Figgy on
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    KylogueKylogue Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Figgy wrote: »
    My webcam could play that karate game 7 years ago.

    Karate Kid game!

    Wax on, wax off!

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    LegbaLegba He did. Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    JCRooks wrote: »
    Yeah, it's like MS don't want me to believe in their project. Have Molyneux sell me something that looks like an impossible AI? Really?

    You've mentioned Molyneux over and over again. If you don't like the guy, that's fine, but he's only involved in one project that utilizes Natal. Just wanted to point that out. It's not like he's overseeing everything.

    Hasn't he just been promoted to Overlord of MS studios Europe?

    He may not be king of the whole world but he has significant sway within the MGS business does he not?

    Yeah, I believe he was quietly promoted about three months back.

    Legba on
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    lowlylowlycooklowlylowlycook Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    [edit]

    I thought this was the E3 megathread. I don't want to drag out any arguments about Natal in it's own thread. Return to your hype.

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    voodoosporkvoodoospork Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Frankly, Molyneux is a dreamer who can actually sell the shit out of his dreams. You and I might know to take anything he says with a grain of salt, most of the people who follow gaming news at all probably know.

    That's still a very small portion of the market they're pitching this to.

    Microsoft has always said they wanted into every living room in the world, but this is the tech that could actually make that shit happen. What you or I think about this, what credibility we lend to Molyneux or the project as a whole (which I seriously doubt Molyneux has a significant hand in anyway), that's all entirely irrelevant. We're not part of this mission.

    Molyneux might be bankrupt with us, but he's a hell of a fucking pitchman.

    voodoospork on
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    MisterGrokMisterGrok Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    I am very excited about Project Natal and, I think this puts me in the minority on the internet, I like Peter Molyneux. He has a very grandiose idea of how things could be and nothing, not even failing to make those grand ideas come to life or old age, has jaded him. It's like every morning he harvests a new set of eyes from a "missing" orphan so that he can continue to look on the world with renewed curiosity.

    I was also very stoked to see Johnny Chung Lee was involved with engineering Natal. I think he's the biggest name in "cool shit to do with IR" right now, if not the only name.

    I'd like to see something cool like a wall-climbing or free-running simulator where you could make gestures to indicate how you'll proceed. For instance, you could dip down and throw your hands up to indicate you're sliding under something and jump up and and throw your hands down to show you're jumping over something. I could see some maneuvers from Mirror's Edge being a lot easier to perform by making a couple gestures than the 6 rapid button presses you need to make to jump, kick, turn, grab, and climb up walls.

    MisterGrok on
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    voodoosporkvoodoospork Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    I don't dislike him, I just don't believe anything he says.

    He could youtube himself eating a baby every morning, and I would still have to give him his props for the shit he did with Bullfrog.

    voodoospork on
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    wavecutterwavecutter Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Fuck an onscreen keyboard. What about using American Sign Language instead?

    wavecutter on
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    kedinikkedinik Captain of Industry Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    JCRooks wrote: »
    Yeah, it's like MS don't want me to believe in their project. Have Molyneux sell me something that looks like an impossible AI? Really?

    You've mentioned Molyneux over and over again. If you don't like the guy, that's fine, but he's only involved in one project that utilizes Natal. Just wanted to point that out. It's not like he's overseeing everything.

    Hasn't he just been promoted to Overlord of MS studios Europe?

    He may not be king of the whole world but he has significant sway within the MGS business does he not?

    Oh god, really?

    MS is screwed.

    kedinik on
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    lowlylowlycooklowlylowlycook Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Yeah, I should have left the bit about thinking gaming is better off with Molyneux than without him even if he over hypes his projects, in the post I deleted.

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    XagarathXagarath Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Honestly, as far as I'm concerned, the man hasn't done anything actually worthwhile since the original Populous.

    Xagarath on
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    SamSam Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    i envision this revolutionizing the dance genre...for example a game where you have too do the soulja boy dance and it can accurately evaluate you.

    apart from that and software designed specifically for it, it's kinda iffy. it's pretty much impossible to calibrate something like racing properly. im sure they can get it to work, but high level play? i don't see how it's possible to standardize those kinds of intricacies. so while itd be fine for burnout, i dont see anyone wanting to play PGR or Grid using this.

    id be glad to eat my words though. id love to see them figure out a way to calibrate x and y axes- maybe your feet for forward and back and hands to turn, with finger patterns for actions/attacks?

    Sam on
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    Nakatomi2010Nakatomi2010 Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    How long till Microsoft gets sued for shows going through TVs and thus asking people to play without shoes? Or selling straps to keep shoes attached to ankles...

    Someone should come up with pictures of the various new ways our TVs will get destroyed...

    Wii=We've seen, Wiimote through the TV
    Natal=shoes/other body parts
    Sony=stick with a globe on it?

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    SamSam Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    so what happens if you throw a punch in milo's direction anyway?

    Sam on
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    wavecutterwavecutter Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    American Sign Language or some sort of hand sign short cuts to replace the keyboard.

    wavecutter on
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    BlackDoveBlackDove Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    If you've got hands, why not use a keyboard?

    BlackDove on
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    Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    There is so much that is ridiculous about how they are presenting this. Why are they lying to people when they want them to buy this product? It is always counter-productive.

    I am tired of this kind of bullshit from game developers.

    edit: the real use of this technology would be to play a game like Ico where you don't speak the other person's language anyways, and they don't speak yours, so you must communicate with tone of voice and body language.

    Trying to create a convincing AI boy is reaching too far.

    Evil Multifarious on
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    MiserableMirthMiserableMirth Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    I like what I saw of Natal, but I very skeptical of everything. The Milo thing is almost insulting to think we would believe these guys have done what scientist in the AI field have yet to do. I'm more interested in it's motion capturing capabilities, but since I don't fully understand the tech, there is still a lot of answers I need answer before getting hyped up for it.

    Is the camera precise enough to read sign language? I'm curious because the stuff showed off at E3 looked like basic gestures.

    MiserableMirth on
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    JelloblimpJelloblimp Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    (...). I'm more interested in it's motion capturing capabilities, but since I don't fully understand the tech, there is still a lot of answers I need answer before getting hyped up for it.

    Is the camera precise enough to read sign language? I'm curious because the stuff showed off at E3 looked like basic gestures.
    From FuSchnick (MS-employee that posts at SA-forums) regarding Natal:
    FuSchnick wrote:
    It works in a totally dark room, a room with a giant jumbotron TV behind you showing LSD trips, and a room with a conveyor belt of mannequins moving 10 feet behind you. It's easier to just think of it as a very advanced version of RADAR using infrared (and no, it is not thermal based at all). If you know what a Z-Buffer is, Natal is taking a real-time Z-Buffer snapshot of your room (and also a traditional optical picture, but it mostly isn't used for what we are talking about here).

    Sony's technology is still passive... it is 100% based on optical recognition (I'm guessing they also have accellerometers involved, which they did not mention, but since the standard PS3 controller already has them...), and the "controllers" they are holding are just bright ping-pong balls that are easy to pick up and follow in software. This is what motion capture technology has been doing for years. They are doing the exact opposite of the what Wii does (Wii controllers are the sensors and they report where they "see" the badly-named sensor-bar), but doing it in this way lets them combine traditional Eye-toy video captures along with with the data they collect on the ping-pong balls, so they can do augmented reality.

    The Wii method gives you one or two locations in space plus some limited orientation data (the Motion+ refines this more). It is limited by line-of-sight between the controller and sensor bar.

    The Sony method gives you a video capture of the room (traditional Eye-toy data), combined with one or two bright objects that should be easy to see and calculate 3D positions from via image-recognition, and I'm assuming this is helped out by accellerometer data from the controllers. It might or might not be dependant on line-of-sight from the camera to the balls, depending on how detailed the accellerometer data is.

    Microsoft's method is a traditional camera (Eye-toy equivilent) plus a radar-map depth buffer. It does a lot of computation to recognize human shapes and figure out where all your joints are and build a model of your body in space. The result is that the "input" is a full human shape with spatial coordinates and orientations for each joint.
    I guess this means if camera is precise enoughit can pick-up individual fingers, and movement shouldn't be an issue.

    Jelloblimp on
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    psycojesterpsycojester Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Xagarath wrote: »
    Honestly, as far as I'm concerned, the man hasn't done anything actually worthwhile since the original Populous.

    What was wrong with Dungeon Keeper? Be fair to him, he hasn't done anything worthwhile since Bullfrog went under.

    psycojester on
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    XagarathXagarath Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Xagarath wrote: »
    Honestly, as far as I'm concerned, the man hasn't done anything actually worthwhile since the original Populous.

    What was wrong with Dungeon Keeper? Be fair to him, he hasn't done anything worthwhile since Bullfrog went under.

    I'm pretty sure he wasn't the main driving force behind DK, though I could be wrong.

    Xagarath on
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    MarlorMarlor Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Did he have a hand in Syndicate, Magic Carpet or Theme Park?

    If so, those are some more things to be thankful for. Bullfrog was a seriously impressive studio.

    Lionhead... not so much.

    Marlor on
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    MiserableMirthMiserableMirth Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Jelloblimp wrote: »
    (...). I'm more interested in it's motion capturing capabilities, but since I don't fully understand the tech, there is still a lot of answers I need answer before getting hyped up for it.

    Is the camera precise enough to read sign language? I'm curious because the stuff showed off at E3 looked like basic gestures.
    From FuSchnick (MS-employee that posts at SA-forums) regarding Natal:
    FuSchnick wrote:
    Cool stuff.
    I guess this means if camera is precise enoughit can pick-up individual fingers, and movement shouldn't be an issue.
    That's awesome. To know that it can sense the orientation of your joints is interesting. Since it tracks body movement through computation, there is hope that the final product will be even more precise than what was shown at e3.

    MiserableMirth on
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    DeathPrawnDeathPrawn Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    If you've got hands, why not use a keyboard?

    I see many ways that Natal can be used to make computer interaction more convenient. Requiring users to learn a new language is not one of them.

    DeathPrawn on
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    MiserableMirthMiserableMirth Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    I wonder if there will be some kind of "Natal Sign Language." Hand gestures that represent common things among video games and even genres of games.

    Like, if you just hold up your pointer finger, the camera recognizes it and then goes to a pointer controls like a mouse or the Wii's IR pointer. The hand with just the pointer finger up becomes the sign term that bring up pointer controls.

    MiserableMirth on
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    FyreWulffFyreWulff YouRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    edited June 2009
    MS employee gets that wrong.. Wii only uses the sensor bar for IR pointing, not anything else. Also technically NATAL still depends on Line-of-Sight, because if you aren't in front of it, it ain't seeing you.

    FyreWulff on
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    kedinikkedinik Captain of Industry Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    MS employee gets that wrong.. Wii only uses the sensor bar for IR pointing, not anything else. Also technically NATAL still depends on Line-of-Sight, because if you aren't in front of it, it ain't seeing you.

    He only claimed that the Wiimote detects the sensor bar's location, which is totally true. Whatchu' talkin' 'bout, Willis?

    kedinik on
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    FyreWulffFyreWulff YouRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    edited June 2009
    The Wii method gives you one or two locations in space plus some limited orientation data (the Motion+ refines this more). It is limited by line-of-sight between the controller and sensor bar.

    FyreWulff on
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    kedinikkedinik Captain of Industry Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    The Wii method gives you one or two locations in space plus some limited orientation data (the Motion+ refines this more). It is limited by line-of-sight between the controller and sensor bar.

    This quote is 100% true.

    kedinik on
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    ChewyWafflesChewyWaffles Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Cobell wrote: »
    This is an interesting article

    http://news.spong.com/article/18155/Lionheads_Project_Natal_Video_Fakery

    I don't know if it actually means the demo is fake. It could just be a bug or problem with the detection. But I am definitely skeptical especially since Molyneux is attached to it.

    I remain skeptical but optimistic.

    I hate to say this, but anyone that believed that Milo video was anything but a scripted sequence - please PM me because I have a lot of seaside land in kansas I'd like to sell you.

    ChewyWaffles on
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    psyck0psyck0 Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Is the camera precise enough to read sign language? I'm curious because the stuff showed off at E3 looked like basic gestures.

    Not a chance in hell. Sign language is an entirely complete and grammatically complex language full of interpretation and ambiguity in things such as placement of the signs and what hand you use. Understanding sign language would mean it should be able to learn English as well, and no one has been able to develop a program that can do that beyond basic words and key phrases.

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    DeathPrawnDeathPrawn Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    kedinik wrote: »
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    The Wii method gives you one or two locations in space plus some limited orientation data (the Motion+ refines this more). It is limited by line-of-sight between the controller and sensor bar.

    This quote is between 'somewhat' and 'mostly' true.

    Fixed that for ya. Games that don't use the IR pointer don't need line-of-sight. Case in point: Wii Sports Tennis while you're playing the actual game.

    DeathPrawn on
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    kedinikkedinik Captain of Industry Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    DeathPrawn wrote: »
    Games that don't use the IR pointer don't need line-of-sight. Case in point: Wii Sports Tennis while you're playing the actual game.

    His explanation of the Wiimote / Sensor Bar relationship shows that he knows it's only used for pointing.

    That aside, good luck even starting the game or navigating most of its menus without line of sight.

    kedinik on
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    LittleBootsLittleBoots Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    DeathPrawn wrote: »
    kedinik wrote: »
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    The Wii method gives you one or two locations in space plus some limited orientation data (the Motion+ refines this more). It is limited by line-of-sight between the controller and sensor bar.

    This quote is between 'somewhat' and 'mostly' true.

    Fixed that for ya. Games that don't use the IR pointer don't need line-of-sight. Case in point: Wii Sports Tennis while you're playing the actual game.

    Or bowling, I've taken my turn while in the bathroom before.

    LittleBoots on

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    MiserableMirthMiserableMirth Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    psyck0 wrote: »
    Is the camera precise enough to read sign language? I'm curious because the stuff showed off at E3 looked like basic gestures.

    Not a chance in hell. Sign language is an entirely complete and grammatically complex language full of interpretation and ambiguity in things such as placement of the signs and what hand you use. Understanding sign language would mean it should be able to learn English as well, and no one has been able to develop a program that can do that beyond basic words and key phrases.
    Well, I didn't expect it to understand the sign language, but if the camera was accurate and precise enough to distinguish the different hand gestures in sign language.

    Edit: The wii remote needs the sensor bar to track some motion. If you point the controller at the screen and move towards it or away from it, the controller can track this movement. If the pointer isn't being picked up by the sensor bar, then, even with M+, it has no idea where it is.

    MiserableMirth on
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    JCRooksJCRooks Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    The_Scarab wrote: »
    JCRooks wrote: »
    Yeah, it's like MS don't want me to believe in their project. Have Molyneux sell me something that looks like an impossible AI? Really?

    You've mentioned Molyneux over and over again. If you don't like the guy, that's fine, but he's only involved in one project that utilizes Natal. Just wanted to point that out. It's not like he's overseeing everything.

    Hasn't he just been promoted to Overlord of MS studios Europe?

    He may not be king of the whole world but he has significant sway within the MGS business does he not?

    Hmm, depends on what you mean by "significant sway", but yeah, certainly he has influence over large parts of MGS now (particularly in Europe). Also, despite the overhype that he blanked on several games, I still thought Fable and especially Fable 2 were good games. Perhaps more importantly, they sold like gangbusters. So even if a few gaming cynics on message board don't like his "dreamer" and optimistic views on things, the fact is that he still delivers results.

    Anyway, this wasn't meant to be a defense of Molyneux. I was just saying that regarding Natal, it's not like he's running the entire thing.

    One last thing ... I think I know who FuSchnick is. :) I'll have to see if my suspicions are correct sometime ...

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    chasmchasm Ill-tempered Texan Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    One thing I love about this thread is that the arguments against it are essentially slightly reworded versions of the arguments against the Wii. Well, as long as you don't count, "lol molyneux lol."

    chasm on
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    FyreWulffFyreWulff YouRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    edited June 2009
    The funny thing is some sites are going "MILO WAS SMOKE AND MIRRORS" and they'll directly quote Molyneux disclosing the limitations that they're saying were 'hidden' from them, like how he is set up to only listen for the tone of words and not the words themselves. He said this directly to them (and also explained that his questions are open ended so they fit to most responses), yet they say IN THE SAME ARTICLE that someone was controlling him remotely. Like, what the fuck.

    FyreWulff on
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    JCRooksJCRooks Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    The funny thing is some sites are going "MILO WAS SMOKE AND MIRRORS" and they'll directly quote Molyneux disclosing the limitations that they're saying were 'hidden' from them, like how he is set up to only listen for the tone of words and not the words themselves. He said this directly to them (and also explained that his questions are open ended so they fit to most responses), yet they say IN THE SAME ARTICLE that someone was controlling him remotely. Like, what the fuck.

    It's interesting reading all of the responses from people, including the media. You can almost tell people's biases depending on what they write and how they approach the whole thing.

    Not that biases are necessarily bad! Everyone has them. Frankly, I'd prefer everyone air out their biases rather than pretend to be objective, only to be called out later for acting like a tool. :)

    And yes, this goes for Xbox fanboys as well. As much as I think the technology is neat, it's not like it's going to cure cancer. Or that it's instantly going to cause Wii sales to plummet. Overhype is just as bad (if not worse!) than biased criticism. (And no, I'm not referring to anyone here ... just random things I'm seeing on the "Intarwebs")

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