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Star Wars: The Old Republic - Everybody Here Is Going To Be A Jedi

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    JustinSane07JustinSane07 Really, stupid? Brockton__BANNED USERS regular
    edited June 2009
    I'll second that.

    Though I'm kinda intrigued by what AO does, but I don't think I'd want to pay for a game like that. EQ2 did that shit with the bonus stuff for the website and crap and I didn't like it.

    JustinSane07 on
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    LilithiumLilithium __BANNED USERS regular
    edited June 2009
    I hate micro-transactions with a passion. I doubt EA would be as stupid as to dirty the Star Wars franchise with something like that. They're gonna get millions of subscribers just because it's a fresh SW MMO, that's not SWG. I repeat, not SWG, so, win win? YES!

    Lilithium on
    What's that ringing? Ting-ting-a-linging in my head~? Oh, you're always there, making me whole. You're always waiting up for me. You're my first kiss, ever so pure, and ever so defiling, once lost, can never be the same. Fuck me. Violate me. Deny me.
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    Grid SystemGrid System Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    You know why Tabula Rasa shut down, and Matrix Online shut down recently? Because there weren't enough fucking subscribers! There was another one from NCSoft, a vehicle one, that shut down not long ago either for the same reason.
    If anything, all that tells me is that a subscription-based business model is as likely to fail as it is to succeed.
    People buying the game off the shelf, playing it for 2 months, then quitting don't pay the bills. They just don't. It's the people that stick with the games for a long time that pay the bills. They bring the steady stream of income in. You absolutely need an established player base in order to survive in the MMO world.
    Guild Wars?

    Grid System on
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    FandyienFandyien But Otto, what about us? Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    The substantial majority of subscription based games haven't failed, though. I can only think of like five commercial MMOs that have actually been shut down.

    Fandyien on
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    Zetetic ElenchZetetic Elench Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    People buying the game off the shelf, playing it for 2 months, then quitting don't pay the bills. They just don't. It's the people that stick with the games for a long time that pay the bills. They bring the steady stream of income in. You absolutely need an established player base in order to survive in the MMO world.
    Guild Wars?

    As I mentioned in the other thread, the original Guild Wars has broken 600,000 units sold and is doing perfectly fine. A success, even. It all depends on how you approach your business model.

    I highly doubt TOR will drop subscriptions, but it's not impossible for an MMO to function without them.

    Zetetic Elench on
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    Agent CooperAgent Cooper Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    TOR won't drop having a monthly subscription. In fact, I strongly suspect this is the game that will bump the monthly fee to $19.99/month, just like Galaxies bumped it to $14.99/month.

    And the reason they will do so is because they will think the market will bear it.

    Also, it's a little bit disheartening to read that they have to remind the writers to include conflict in a story. While I somehow doubt that is true, if it is... fire those fucking writers.

    Agent Cooper on
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    FandyienFandyien But Otto, what about us? Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    $20 would be very irritating. What happened to the days of $10-a-month MMOs?

    Fandyien on
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    JustinSane07JustinSane07 Really, stupid? Brockton__BANNED USERS regular
    edited June 2009
    TOR won't survive if it's 20 bucks a month. Not with WoW, COH and EQ2 being 15.

    Also, bringing up Guild Wars when talking about MMOs is a no no. It's not an MMO.

    JustinSane07 on
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    Grid SystemGrid System Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Also, bringing up Guild Wars when talking about MMOs is a no no. It's not an MMO.
    Exhibit A:
    TetraRay wrote: »
    I think I read that you can play the entire game without ever talking to another player.

    .....That doesn't really seem like a MMO? o_O

    Exhibit B:
    -SPI- wrote: »
    Fiaryn wrote: »
    Derrick wrote: »
    Fiaryn wrote: »
    Derrick wrote: »
    I'm having a hard time envisioning how this game will work with Sith and Jedi where it won't be pvp centric.

    Who, exactly are you supposed to kill? Raids? That's not very Jedi-like.

    It's really not so confusing if you stop to think about it for a second. Bioware seems to be focusing on crafting impressive story arcs individual to each class. You're going to kill the other side in NPCs via those story arcs.

    Your own mini-KOTOR per class I guess. Or perhaps not so mini. That appears to be the direction they're going in.

    That's not very Massively Multiplayer in scope though.

    Let's be honest- all the major confrontations in Star Wars are duels or at most small engagements. The fodder go at it, but it's not the crux of the story.

    I agree. Everything Bioware has shown us so far sounds like a largely single player game that "oh yeah if you want to you can go play with those other people, I guess". It's pretty damn weird.
    Yeah, for as cool as the game looks they're doing a terrible job showing off the multiplayer aspect of their massively multiplayer online game.

    I think that in light of this kind of speculation, comparison to Guild Wars is entirely appropriate.

    Grid System on
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    GoodKingJayIIIGoodKingJayIII They wanna get my gold on the ceilingRegistered User regular
    edited June 2009
    TOR won't survive if it's 20 bucks a month. Not with WoW, COH and EQ2 being 15.

    Yeah, as long as the 8000-lb gorilla is sitting on the bench, you can't really help but follow along, at least from a pricing perspective.

    GoodKingJayIII on
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    JustinSane07JustinSane07 Really, stupid? Brockton__BANNED USERS regular
    edited June 2009
    Again, I already mentioned, you can level to 80 in WoW and never talk to any other player ever. You don't want to do that, but you can do that.

    And because they're doing a terrible job of showing off the massive multiplayer component doesn't mean it's not there.

    The only actual knowledge we have is that this game is being billed as an MMO. That's it. Guild Wars is not an MMO. Therefore, end of story. Any speculation you might be thinknig isn't tangible evidence.

    JustinSane07 on
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    HavelockHavelock Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Pardon my ignorance, but what's a microtransaction?

    Havelock on
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    Grid SystemGrid System Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    "Give us a dollar and we'll give your character a shiny new gun."

    Grid System on
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    HavelockHavelock Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Oh.

    Fuck that.

    Havelock on
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    Zetetic ElenchZetetic Elench Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Again, I already mentioned, you can level to 80 in WoW and never talk to any other player ever. You don't want to do that, but you can do that.

    And because they're doing a terrible job of showing off the massive multiplayer component doesn't mean it's not there.

    The only actual knowledge we have is that this game is being billed as an MMO. That's it. Guild Wars is not an MMO. Therefore, end of story. Any speculation you might be thinknig isn't tangible evidence.

    Can you highlight the difference, from a business expenditure/survival perspective, between Guild Wars and an MMO? Because that's what's relevant here, and maybe I'm missing something vital.

    Zetetic Elench on
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    WavechaserWavechaser Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Any word on when/if there will be signups for closed betas or anything in the near future?

    Wavechaser on
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    Grid SystemGrid System Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    I must be the only person who doesn't mind microtransactions. Which is weird, because normally I dislike that sort of immersion-breaking stuff.

    Grid System on
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    FandyienFandyien But Otto, what about us? Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    I hate them with a virulent passion. I do not want to bust out a credit card more then once every few months, at most, for this sort of thing.

    Fandyien on
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    alabasteralabaster Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Did anyone else get the impression from the trailer that the hottie Twilek and the little droid are a nod to the companion NPC's that will be in the game?

    I might be reading too much into it, I dunno.

    alabaster on
    PSN: RedBeardtheAngry XBL: alabaster
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    NeadenNeaden Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Again, I already mentioned, you can level to 80 in WoW and never talk to any other player ever. You don't want to do that, but you can do that.

    And because they're doing a terrible job of showing off the massive multiplayer component doesn't mean it's not there.

    The only actual knowledge we have is that this game is being billed as an MMO. That's it. Guild Wars is not an MMO. Therefore, end of story. Any speculation you might be thinknig isn't tangible evidence.

    Can you highlight the difference, from a business expenditure/survival perspective, between Guild Wars and an MMO? Because that's what's relevant here, and maybe I'm missing something vital.
    Mostly the amount of serverspace required. Also in general guild wars requires much less support staff than an MMO would require. It is much more like Diablo 2 than WoW and the creators have never tried to hide that.

    Neaden on
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    FandyienFandyien But Otto, what about us? Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Also, that trailer was cool, but it was entirely pre-rendered and didn't tell us shit about the actual gameplay, which worries me

    Fandyien on
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    ZzuluZzulu Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    microtransactions

    I am not as quick to dismiss it

    At first, I thought monthly fees for MMO's were batshit retarded. I mean what kind of a god damn idiot pays a SUBSCRIPTION to play a game? I looked at MMO players and thought that they were all nuts.

    But then as I got into some of the better MMO's (EVE, WoW) I realized that it was not such a bad model after all.

    I think that microtransactions can be made well, as long as they treat it intelligently

    Zzulu on
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    JustinSane07JustinSane07 Really, stupid? Brockton__BANNED USERS regular
    edited June 2009
    Again, I already mentioned, you can level to 80 in WoW and never talk to any other player ever. You don't want to do that, but you can do that.

    And because they're doing a terrible job of showing off the massive multiplayer component doesn't mean it's not there.

    The only actual knowledge we have is that this game is being billed as an MMO. That's it. Guild Wars is not an MMO. Therefore, end of story. Any speculation you might be thinknig isn't tangible evidence.

    Can you highlight the difference, from a business expenditure/survival perspective, between Guild Wars and an MMO? Because that's what's relevant here, and maybe I'm missing something vital.

    Sure.

    Guild Wars survives on purchases of new copies of the game and it's expansions. It pays for the upkeep to it's servers and it's employees through that. I'm not sure their exact model, but I believe most new content is released as an expac, which is why there's many more of them than there is for WoW, and both games came out around the same time. So they rely on new customers and current customers buying the latest expansion. Their income comes in bursts.

    WoW and COH rely on the consistent income provided by a constant customer base. People buying new copies of those games do not bring in the same amount of money as someone who pays for a year's worth of subscription. So that yearly person is sustaining the company much more than the new customer is. There are few expacs and most content is released "for free," having been paid for through the subs.

    EQ2 mixes between the two, releasing many expacs and microstransactions along with a subscription fee.

    GW is by no means a failure, but I will never consider it an MMO for the same reasons why Diablo and Dungeon Siege are not MMOs.

    As a side note, the "level without talking to or interacting with other players" bit I think actually has a lot to do with EQ2. EQ2 required groups for grinding away at enemies to gain levels, atleast when I played it. You could kill the soloable mobs, but the amount of exp they yielded was piddly in comparison to camping a spot with a group and farming those enemies. This is unlike WoW, which uses a quest system for the bulk of character experience and makes it truly optional to group or not group. I hope TOR follows that model of leveling characters and stays the fuck away from EQ2.

    JustinSane07 on
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    FandyienFandyien But Otto, what about us? Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Nobody ever treats them intelligently.

    They are a terrible idea.

    Fandyien on
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    Grid SystemGrid System Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Fandyien wrote: »
    I hate them with a virulent passion. I do not want to bust out a credit card more then once every few months, at most, for this sort of thing.
    There would have be a way to pony up $30 for a wad of TOR funbux that you can then spend at your leisure. Microsoft made that system work with Live.

    Grid System on
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    Zetetic ElenchZetetic Elench Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Neaden wrote: »
    Again, I already mentioned, you can level to 80 in WoW and never talk to any other player ever. You don't want to do that, but you can do that.

    And because they're doing a terrible job of showing off the massive multiplayer component doesn't mean it's not there.

    The only actual knowledge we have is that this game is being billed as an MMO. That's it. Guild Wars is not an MMO. Therefore, end of story. Any speculation you might be thinknig isn't tangible evidence.

    Can you highlight the difference, from a business expenditure/survival perspective, between Guild Wars and an MMO? Because that's what's relevant here, and maybe I'm missing something vital.
    Mostly the amount of serverspace required. Also in general guild wars requires much less support staff than an MMO would require. It is much more like Diablo 2 than WoW and the creators have never tried to hide that.

    This my MMO naivete showing through here, so forgive me, but I would have thought that instances for each player outside of hub cities (and then massively multiplayer inside hub cities) would take more serverspace? Since all of that, plus stats and everything is still stored on the server.

    Zetetic Elench on
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    JustinSane07JustinSane07 Really, stupid? Brockton__BANNED USERS regular
    edited June 2009
    Neaden wrote: »
    Mostly the amount of serverspace required. Also in general guild wars requires much less support staff than an MMO would require. It is much more like Diablo 2 than WoW and the creators have never tried to hide that.

    That's because most of the people that made GW made D2 as well. They jumped ship from Blizzard shortly after War3's release and made GW. To be fair, I thought GW was going to bomb in the face of D2/EQ2/WoW/COH but it's carved out a nice niche for itself with loyal fans.

    JustinSane07 on
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    reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Microtransactions are good or bad based entirely on what you get for your money. A new gun for five bucks? Fuck that noise. A new area with dozens of quests for five bucks? Wow, what a sweet deal.

    reVerse on
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    FandyienFandyien But Otto, what about us? Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Fandyien wrote: »
    I hate them with a virulent passion. I do not want to bust out a credit card more then once every few months, at most, for this sort of thing.
    There would have be a way to pony up $30 for a wad of TOR funbux that you can then spend at your leisure. Microsoft made that system work with Live.

    I actually hated the Live system. It was irritating, and the number of points you got weren't entirely even, so sometimes you'd just have like 200 sitting around, uselessly, until you spend more money.

    Fandyien on
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    Agent CooperAgent Cooper Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    TOR won't survive if it's 20 bucks a month. Not with WoW, COH and EQ2 being 15.

    UO and EQ were $9.95/month when Galaxies came out.

    For fuck's sake, despite being turned into a heaping pile of refuse that anybody associated with it should be ashamed of, and I really mean that, it's not just hyperbole, there are people that still play it just because it has "Star Wars" in the name. Which is the only reason it was $14.95/month in the first place.

    Agent Cooper on
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    ZzuluZzulu Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    yeah the whole Oblivion way of paying 5 dollars to get horse armor is stupid

    But actually getting real content for a microtransaction could be neat. Of course, if they go with microtransactions I'd expect that the game would be cheaper overall, like no monthly fee or whatever. Having both forms of payment returns us to stupid territory.

    Zzulu on
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    FandyienFandyien But Otto, what about us? Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Zzulu wrote: »
    yeah the whole Oblivion way of paying 5 dollars to get horse armor is stupid

    But actually getting real content for a microtransaction could be neat

    I can almost agree with this, I just don't trust any developer ever to actually do it that way.

    Fandyien on
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    Grid SystemGrid System Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Guild Wars survives on purchases of new copies of the game and it's expansions. It pays for the upkeep to it's servers and it's employees through that. I'm not sure their exact model, but I believe most new content is released as an expac, which is why there's many more of them than there is for WoW, and both games came out around the same time. So they rely on new customers and current customers buying the latest expansion. Their income comes in bursts.
    That has nothing to do with whether the game is a MMO or not.

    A game like TOR, with its stated focus on storyline would likely benefit from a GW-esque model because the content ought not remain static. Players will have to buy the expansion packs in order to keep following the story.

    Grid System on
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    JustinSane07JustinSane07 Really, stupid? Brockton__BANNED USERS regular
    edited June 2009
    TOR won't survive if it's 20 bucks a month. Not with WoW, COH and EQ2 being 15.

    UO and EQ were $9.95/month when Galaxies came out.

    For fuck's sake, despite being turned into a heaping pile of refuse that anybody associated with it should be ashamed of, and I really mean that, it's not just hyperbole, there are people that still play it just because it has "Star Wars" in the name. Which is the only reason it was $14.95/month in the first place.

    Yeah, and it was a mistake. SWG suffered in sales and subs because of it. After only a year it reached the point where it got lumped into a group sub that included EQ and two other games I can't recall.

    As far as microtransactions go, they can work. Just look at Rock Band and Guitar Hero. It works great for those games. Hell, iTunes is solely based on a microtransaction business model.

    But will it work for an MMO? I don't know. I don't want to know. I really like WoW's business model and I hated EQ2s. I'm not sure how I feel about GWs, because I don't play it.

    JustinSane07 on
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    JustinSane07JustinSane07 Really, stupid? Brockton__BANNED USERS regular
    edited June 2009
    Guild Wars survives on purchases of new copies of the game and it's expansions. It pays for the upkeep to it's servers and it's employees through that. I'm not sure their exact model, but I believe most new content is released as an expac, which is why there's many more of them than there is for WoW, and both games came out around the same time. So they rely on new customers and current customers buying the latest expansion. Their income comes in bursts.
    That has nothing to do with whether the game is a MMO or not.

    A game like TOR, with its stated focus on storyline would likely benefit from a GW-esque model because the content ought not remain static. Players will have to buy the expansion packs in order to keep following the story.

    That's....awesome. He asked me what the business model was. Not wheter the game was an MMO.

    Btw, your idea is bad and you should feel bad.

    JustinSane07 on
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    VoodooVVoodooV Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Isn't microtransactions just code for "nickel and diming?" So that in all likelyhood, you'll end up spending way more than 15 bucks a month?

    VoodooV on
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    NeliNeli Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    I think the (honourable) idea behind microtransactions is that the player chooses how much he wants to spend and how much content he wants to experience etc. It is, in theory, a decent idea.

    Usually though, it just turns into

    "LETS PUT A PRICETAG ON RANDOM SHIT, MAKE THAT SHIT REALLY AWESOME AND THEN PENALIZE THE GUYS WHO DON'T BUY IT"

    "BRILLIANT STEVE. WE'RE GONNA BE RICH"

    Neli on
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    Grid SystemGrid System Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Guild Wars survives on purchases of new copies of the game and it's expansions. It pays for the upkeep to it's servers and it's employees through that. I'm not sure their exact model, but I believe most new content is released as an expac, which is why there's many more of them than there is for WoW, and both games came out around the same time. So they rely on new customers and current customers buying the latest expansion. Their income comes in bursts.
    That has nothing to do with whether the game is a MMO or not.

    A game like TOR, with its stated focus on storyline would likely benefit from a GW-esque model because the content ought not remain static. Players will have to buy the expansion packs in order to keep following the story.

    That's....awesome. He asked me what the business model was. Not wheter the game was an MMO.

    Btw, your idea is bad and you should feel bad.
    Read the question again. I think you misunderstood.

    Grid System on
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    Agent CooperAgent Cooper Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Guild Wars doesn't have servers. That's why there's no monthly fee.

    Agent Cooper on
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    JustinSane07JustinSane07 Really, stupid? Brockton__BANNED USERS regular
    edited June 2009
    I tihnk you're the one that missed the question. He asked me what the difference in business model there is between GW and an MMO.

    Who is the host for a GW world, then Cooper? Is it the game creator like with the Battle.net system?

    JustinSane07 on
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