I still think it's 100% retarded they're making us paint stuff by distorting basic geometric shapes, when tools much more suitable to the job are available on our desktop computers.
Sure it's impressive what certain dedicated people can produce, but it doesn't make the system any more intelligent.
xzzy on
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webguy20I spend too much time on the InternetRegistered Userregular
I still think it's 100% retarded they're making us paint stuff by distorting basic geometric shapes, when tools much more suitable to the job are available on our desktop computers.
Sure it's impressive what certain dedicated people can produce, but it doesn't make the system any more intelligent.
I wonder if its so that the Forza team doesn't have to spend as much time coding a full fledged image editing type program. If that's the case then Im A OK with it. Id rather them spend their time working on the cars and physics.
Takes less bandwidth to transmit a bunch of coordinates and rotations of predefined textures than actual textures.
IE, it could be 20 bytes to transmit the fact that I just put a gigantic circle on my hood, or it could be more than 600KB if it was a raw image.
The system wouldn't scale. Sure, it only takes 20 bytes to transmit a circle.. but 4000 circles? That's the same amount of data a jpeg would consume. The game is converting it to a texture anyway. I think they compress it, because there were situations in FM2 where you could get artifacts if you placed decals that were the same color as the car's paint.. seams would show.
Reason they left this stupid decal system in is because they have communities of people that do nothing but design cars. Which I'm cool with, I just don't think a valid reason for making us use crappy tools is to keep a small number of people in business.
It would be nice if there was an online version of the livery editor though. Edit it on PC, then save and download it to your 360.
You make a good point actually. You could do this in skate 2, but the editor was more basic.
Something that used the same system of primitive shapes but you could edit on your desktop would be a nice thing. I'm not complaining about the system as it is though. I used to spend hours in FM2 making racing liveries with some tunes playing in the background. Good times
EDIT: and xzzy, I don't think the livery editor is "crappy". It's simple to learn and use. Creating complex designs is hard work and would be easier in a normal paint program, but making a racing livery was straightforward and good looking results were easy to achieve. I think the livery editor is a good comprise between ease of use, learning curve and flexability, irrespective of data / bandwidth etc concerns.
One of the reasons is allowing actual images of any sort could cause a nightmare for content policing, be it for reasons of copyright or because some guy who also plays a lot of Uno feels it'd be a good idea to put his cock on the hood of his car.
While copyright issues still exist, they're a lot less frequent because fewer people can actually create these copyright-risky cars. If they just allowed JPEGs it'd be all over in every form and it'd get that much harder to police. I can live with what they've decided, really. I quite like the current vinyl system, even if I'm not too great at using it. I can appreciate the number of reasons why they keep it that way and so don't expect any more.
In future Forza games I'd definitely like to see them increase the number of layers per side (though it's already massive at 1000) and a PC editor would be awesome.
Takes less bandwidth to transmit a bunch of coordinates and rotations of predefined textures than actual textures.
IE, it could be 20 bytes to transmit the fact that I just put a gigantic circle on my hood, or it could be more than 600KB if it was a raw image.
The system wouldn't scale. Sure, it only takes 20 bytes to transmit a circle.. but 4000 circles? That's the same amount of data a jpeg would consume. The game is converting it to a texture anyway. I think they compress it, because there were situations in FM2 where you could get artifacts if you placed decals that were the same color as the car's paint.. seams would show.
Reason they left this stupid decal system in is because they have communities of people that do nothing but design cars. Which I'm cool with, I just don't think a valid reason for making us use crappy tools is to keep a small number of people in business.
Yes, the game is converting it to a texture in the end.. it has to. However, it transmits the designs to other people as the coordinates/rotation/hue/etc, and their boxes convert it into a texture.
In the end, most liveries (>90%) will be 1/100th the size of the equivalent transmission of actual texture data. It's not done to 'keep people in business', it's just the logistics of online play.
edit: another example is that it would be nice to be able to just import your own image for Halo 3's emblems, but Halo 3 just procedurally generations the emblems from a source image, and all it's transmitting to other boxes is which emblem, the color, the background, and if you've turned the secondary parts on or off. If they were ever to let people 'draw' their own emblem, it'd be the same as this, much like how Rock Band also has the same shapes/layers system.
The Ironman car? Guess what, someone owns the copyright on that, and it ain't the guy who painted the car.
It's not a terrible one at all. My point is simple - few can actually make a decent, high quality Iron Man car in the current system because it requires quite a bit of talent and a lot of investment of time. Because of the effort necessary there'll be fewer copyright infringing things on the system, thus making it easier to police. On the most part MS don't care, but this is because the companies don't. If every fucker was scanning in their DVD covers or JPEGs of whatever else some company somewhere down the line is going to take offense.
Plus the offensive content stuff, plus the all-important online stuff, and voila, you have your reasons. I should really write my review of this, anyway... I've had it for two weeks, but I just can't come to an absolute number conclusion.
The Ironman car? Guess what, someone owns the copyright on that, and it ain't the guy who painted the car.
I guess by having someone take the time to do it themselves rather than rip it from some website, they can claim fair use. Especially since the person isn't making real money from it.
Another arguement (though not necessairily a good one) for the livery editor it that it takes skill to create a complex design the way it is. Whilst we don't all end up with amazing looking cars, this skill involvement adds a whole new facet to the game - you can be good at designing and derive fun from that rather than everyone just lazily slapping a jpeg on their rides.
I agree that the copyright / obscenity issue is moot, because most designs in the auction house in FM2 were either of copyrighted material or of a naked anime girl.
Another arguement (though not necessairily a good one) for the livery editor it that it takes skill to create a complex design the way it is.
Which is the core of my complaint. Why develop a system that only a minority of people who own the game can get full use of? Don't the rest of us who don't want to spend 100 hours distorting shapes deserve to paint awesome looking cars too?
The decal system probably helps with the amount of trash liveries you'd see, too. If they had a way to import jpegs and whatnot from a PC you'd get every 14 year old who thinks he's funny uploading tubgirl and goatse paintjobs. Helps keep the auction house sane.
It would be nice if there was an online version of the livery editor though. Edit it on PC, then save and download it to your 360.
You make a good point actually. You could do this in skate 2, but the editor was more basic.
Well let's not reference skate 2 on this one since the editor never even worked. Sure you could make a design and save it, but good luck uploading it to the game.
Another arguement (though not necessairily a good one) for the livery editor it that it takes skill to create a complex design the way it is.
Which is the core of my complaint. Why develop a system that only a minority of people who own the game can get full use of? Don't the rest of us who don't want to spend 100 hours distorting shapes deserve to paint awesome looking cars too?
As I say, the argument for is also the argument against.
Having a skill based system means you can derive fun / competition from creating nice designs and improving at that (I know I did in FM2).
Conversely, having a skill based system means only the top designers can create complex designs.
You can say this about most game systems outside of the core game mechanics (maybe even within them)that involve skill in some way (e.g. video editing in Skate as a possible example).
BUT in my opinion it was possible to make a nice looking racing livery with almost no skill at all. It is just making designs not built around simple geometric shapes and sponsor decals that was more difficult.
I made a pretty neat looking Camaro by plastering a load of white hoops and red triangles onto a black background. Still couldn't keep the thing on the track, though.
Some Forza-playing friends would be cool to have on my list, so give ChrisMcDee an add and try to remember it's me.
I'm curious. Seeing as how multiscreen setups require multiple 360's and network connections, would you be able to use it over Live against other players?
Eh. I see how it's a bad move (if true), but I only race with people on my friends list anyway.
Matchmaking always ends up as a demolition derby, or plain and simple fail.
There are no custom public races. Only matchmaking or private races. This is an incredibly stupid move by Turn 10 if it turns out to be true.
1) The official release date isn't here yet, so they might not have switched all the public servers on yet.
2) It's the Forza Motorsport forums, which have inexplicably become dumber/angrier/more conclusion-jumping-prone than the NeoGAF thread.
Eh. I see how it's a bad move (if true), but I only race with people on my friends list anyway.
Matchmaking always ends up as a demolition derby, or plain and simple fail.
I prefer racing with my people on my friends list, but sometimes I'll be online when no one else is and want to race, so in FM2 I'd look for rooms with a car/class/lap count/assists that I like and race. Now I can't do that.
I never really did any multiplayer in FM2 outside of private 1-on-1s with a friend and the occasional quickgame. Excuse my ignorance but what makes matchmaking different to public races?
Edit: Oh, I guess you can browse a list of Public Races but matchmaking just throws you in somewhere, right?
There are no custom public races. Only matchmaking or private races. This is an incredibly stupid move by Turn 10 if it turns out to be true.
1) The official release date isn't here yet, so they might not have switched all the public servers on yet.
2) It's the Forza Motorsport forums, which have inexplicably become dumber/angrier/more conclusion-jumping-prone than the NeoGAF thread.
The option for it isn't in the menu system at all, which doesn't seem like something you take out to patch in at a later date.
I really really REALLY hope that isn't true. The only way I ever really played Forza 2 online was by starting an online career race with the settings I(and apparently a ton of other people) liked and waiting for it to fill.
People saying "I never race public anyway" doesn't change the fact it's a bit of a kick in the teeth for people that do enjoy browsing public games. Still, I guess we'll just have to get used to racing public to pick up new friends so we can have custom private races.
On a more positive note I was trying to make my FM2 Testarossa drivable earlier and gave wider tyre width a go. Wow, suddenly it has awesome traction and flies around the track. This is the first time I've toyed with tyre width. Is wider always generally better?
always ends in tears and everyone driving the wrong way
For the last year I've been racing FM2 public races with minimal issues. Collisions set to default prevents people going the wrong way and actually hitting anyone.
*beloved option from your favorite game* isn't in the game? Oh well I've never used it so no big deal.
always ends in tears and everyone driving the wrong way
For the last year I've been racing FM2 public races with minimal issues. Collisions set to default prevents people going the wrong way and actually hitting anyone.
*beloved option from your favorite game* isn't in the game? Oh well I've never used it so no big deal.
Seriously. Just because you can't seem to find a proper race or just race properly yourself doesn't mean that there aren't a ton of people out there who have had the exact opposite experience. I have the 1m online achievement(and I got that last year) and have good races the vast majority of the time.
I like having the ability to choose what class and on what track I wish to race with other people.
If only we had some sort of big bank of awesome guys who are going to play a tonne of Forza. Oh wait!
I'm new to the whole concept of XBL play with a large bank of regular players, but isn't there some way to do it if we all add one person or something? Again I'm displaying huge ignorance here so go easy on me.
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But now I have to go to work.
Ugh.
Thoughts of a Part-Time Hobbyist - A Wargaming and RPG Blog
No.
At least, I don't think so; you needed Gold to use it in FM2.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ua9GmC1jkv0
Sure it's impressive what certain dedicated people can produce, but it doesn't make the system any more intelligent.
I wonder if its so that the Forza team doesn't have to spend as much time coding a full fledged image editing type program. If that's the case then Im A OK with it. Id rather them spend their time working on the cars and physics.
Origin ID: Discgolfer27
Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
IE, it could be 20 bytes to transmit the fact that I just put a gigantic circle on my hood, or it could be more than 600KB if it was a raw image.
It would be nice if there was an online version of the livery editor though. Edit it on PC, then save and download it to your 360.
The system wouldn't scale. Sure, it only takes 20 bytes to transmit a circle.. but 4000 circles? That's the same amount of data a jpeg would consume. The game is converting it to a texture anyway. I think they compress it, because there were situations in FM2 where you could get artifacts if you placed decals that were the same color as the car's paint.. seams would show.
Reason they left this stupid decal system in is because they have communities of people that do nothing but design cars. Which I'm cool with, I just don't think a valid reason for making us use crappy tools is to keep a small number of people in business.
You make a good point actually. You could do this in skate 2, but the editor was more basic.
Something that used the same system of primitive shapes but you could edit on your desktop would be a nice thing. I'm not complaining about the system as it is though. I used to spend hours in FM2 making racing liveries with some tunes playing in the background. Good times
EDIT: and xzzy, I don't think the livery editor is "crappy". It's simple to learn and use. Creating complex designs is hard work and would be easier in a normal paint program, but making a racing livery was straightforward and good looking results were easy to achieve. I think the livery editor is a good comprise between ease of use, learning curve and flexability, irrespective of data / bandwidth etc concerns.
This is, of course, just my take on it.
While copyright issues still exist, they're a lot less frequent because fewer people can actually create these copyright-risky cars. If they just allowed JPEGs it'd be all over in every form and it'd get that much harder to police. I can live with what they've decided, really. I quite like the current vinyl system, even if I'm not too great at using it. I can appreciate the number of reasons why they keep it that way and so don't expect any more.
In future Forza games I'd definitely like to see them increase the number of layers per side (though it's already massive at 1000) and a PC editor would be awesome.
XBL/PSN/Steam: APZonerunner
Yes, the game is converting it to a texture in the end.. it has to. However, it transmits the designs to other people as the coordinates/rotation/hue/etc, and their boxes convert it into a texture.
In the end, most liveries (>90%) will be 1/100th the size of the equivalent transmission of actual texture data. It's not done to 'keep people in business', it's just the logistics of online play.
edit: another example is that it would be nice to be able to just import your own image for Halo 3's emblems, but Halo 3 just procedurally generations the emblems from a source image, and all it's transmitting to other boxes is which emblem, the color, the background, and if you've turned the secondary parts on or off. If they were ever to let people 'draw' their own emblem, it'd be the same as this, much like how Rock Band also has the same shapes/layers system.
The Ironman car? Guess what, someone owns the copyright on that, and it ain't the guy who painted the car.
It's not a terrible one at all. My point is simple - few can actually make a decent, high quality Iron Man car in the current system because it requires quite a bit of talent and a lot of investment of time. Because of the effort necessary there'll be fewer copyright infringing things on the system, thus making it easier to police. On the most part MS don't care, but this is because the companies don't. If every fucker was scanning in their DVD covers or JPEGs of whatever else some company somewhere down the line is going to take offense.
Plus the offensive content stuff, plus the all-important online stuff, and voila, you have your reasons. I should really write my review of this, anyway... I've had it for two weeks, but I just can't come to an absolute number conclusion.
XBL/PSN/Steam: APZonerunner
I guess by having someone take the time to do it themselves rather than rip it from some website, they can claim fair use. Especially since the person isn't making real money from it.
I agree that the copyright / obscenity issue is moot, because most designs in the auction house in FM2 were either of copyrighted material or of a naked anime girl.
Well let's not reference skate 2 on this one since the editor never even worked. Sure you could make a design and save it, but good luck uploading it to the game.
As I say, the argument for is also the argument against.
Having a skill based system means you can derive fun / competition from creating nice designs and improving at that (I know I did in FM2).
Conversely, having a skill based system means only the top designers can create complex designs.
You can say this about most game systems outside of the core game mechanics (maybe even within them)that involve skill in some way (e.g. video editing in Skate as a possible example).
BUT in my opinion it was possible to make a nice looking racing livery with almost no skill at all. It is just making designs not built around simple geometric shapes and sponsor decals that was more difficult.
Each car may, or may not, be 'radical'.
Some Forza-playing friends would be cool to have on my list, so give ChrisMcDee an add and try to remember it's me.
SoogaGames Blog
I took the pastels to ludicrous levels in FM2:
http://xzzy.org/files/games/forza/lotus.jpg
I will never do that again. Too much time wasted making shapes line up.
Also, GIS'ing for 'saved by the bell', even with safe search on, turns up a number of results that could easily get me in trouble.
Wonderful!
I think the best one so far is when I needed to google "police tape" for an image for one of these threads.
Even that gets you a NSFW result.
Also damnit I want those wheels, too bad they're so expensive
http://www.forzacentral.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22956
I'm thinking some ALMS cars, and a slew of WTCC cars will need to be done.
http://forums.forzamotorsport.net/forums/thread/3076360.aspx
There are no custom public races. Only matchmaking or private races. This is an incredibly stupid move by Turn 10 if it turns out to be true.
Matchmaking always ends up as a demolition derby, or plain and simple fail.
1) The official release date isn't here yet, so they might not have switched all the public servers on yet.
2) It's the Forza Motorsport forums, which have inexplicably become dumber/angrier/more conclusion-jumping-prone than the NeoGAF thread.
I prefer racing with my people on my friends list, but sometimes I'll be online when no one else is and want to race, so in FM2 I'd look for rooms with a car/class/lap count/assists that I like and race. Now I can't do that.
Edit: Oh, I guess you can browse a list of Public Races but matchmaking just throws you in somewhere, right?
SoogaGames Blog
The option for it isn't in the menu system at all, which doesn't seem like something you take out to patch in at a later date.
I hope they're wrong though.
Exactly. Turn 10 says "This lap count/track is what you will race for the car class you have decided you want to race."
From what the forza board is saying, it's a bunch of 3 lap races which would really suck in the higher classes.
It was the best way.
Damage off
always ends in tears and everyone driving the wrong way
On a more positive note I was trying to make my FM2 Testarossa drivable earlier and gave wider tyre width a go. Wow, suddenly it has awesome traction and flies around the track. This is the first time I've toyed with tyre width. Is wider always generally better?
SoogaGames Blog
For the last year I've been racing FM2 public races with minimal issues. Collisions set to default prevents people going the wrong way and actually hitting anyone.
*beloved option from your favorite game* isn't in the game? Oh well I've never used it so no big deal.
Seriously. Just because you can't seem to find a proper race or just race properly yourself doesn't mean that there aren't a ton of people out there who have had the exact opposite experience. I have the 1m online achievement(and I got that last year) and have good races the vast majority of the time.
I like having the ability to choose what class and on what track I wish to race with other people.
I'm new to the whole concept of XBL play with a large bank of regular players, but isn't there some way to do it if we all add one person or something? Again I'm displaying huge ignorance here so go easy on me.
SoogaGames Blog
Damage is off in public races for a reason. Trust me, you don't want to play a public race with damage on.