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Forza Motorsport 3 - Release: 10/27/09 (US) | Demo OUT NOW [on X360]

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    DaedalusDaedalus Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Joolander wrote: »
    yeah

    i just never hear "German Muscle" applied to cars

    I suppose your BMW Ms and such could count. The original idea behind muscle cars was to put a big fucking engine into a normal-sized passenger car and get something fast as a result, and the whole purpose-built pony car thing happened later.

    I guess the big difference is that BMW M and Mercedes AMG also pay attention to things like suspension and brakes.

    Daedalus on
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    Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    bongi wrote: »
    Like I said, stick a giant engine into something and congratulations, you've overcome your ancient and crappy suspension designs.

    The Corvette has leaf springs in the rear.

    Leaf springs.

    You know what else has leaf springs?

    Ox carts.

    And again when it comes down to it the Viper ACR and Corvette ZR1 still beat anything production from a major European manufacturer that isn't an Enzo around a race track (granted that the Veyron hasn't been tested yet). So cry more?

    Why don't Maserati and Pagani count?

    Pagani is a 1 car manufacturer. Maserati should count, I agree. Still the MC12 (and the Enzo) are homologation cars for race cars, wheras the Viper ACR and the Corvette ZR1 are cars that you can actually go to a dealer and buy.

    Jealous Deva on
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    DaedalusDaedalus Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    bongi wrote: »
    Like I said, stick a giant engine into something and congratulations, you've overcome your ancient and crappy suspension designs.

    The Corvette has leaf springs in the rear.

    Leaf springs.

    You know what else has leaf springs?

    Ox carts.

    And again when it comes down to it the Viper ACR and Corvette ZR1 still beat anything production from a major European manufacturer that isn't an Enzo around a race track (granted that the Veyron hasn't been tested yet). So cry more?

    Why don't Maserati and Pagani count?

    He's probably talking about Nurburgring laps, which are completely uncertified and done in traffic.

    edit: and the Enzo is not a homologation car, there's no race car based off of it.

    edit 2: he's also forgetting Porsche, and the Nissan GT-R, of course.

    Daedalus on
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    Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Daedalus wrote: »
    Joolander wrote: »
    yeah

    i just never hear "German Muscle" applied to cars

    I suppose your BMW Ms and such could count. The original idea behind muscle cars was to put a big fucking engine into a normal-sized passenger car and get something fast as a result, and the whole purpose-built pony car thing happened later.

    I guess the big difference is that BMW M and Mercedes AMG also pay attention to things like suspension and brakes.


    The M3 is notorious for brake failure when tracking, and really requires modification (at the very least high temp brake fluid) to track.

    Jealous Deva on
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    Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Daedalus wrote: »
    bongi wrote: »
    Like I said, stick a giant engine into something and congratulations, you've overcome your ancient and crappy suspension designs.

    The Corvette has leaf springs in the rear.

    Leaf springs.

    You know what else has leaf springs?

    Ox carts.

    And again when it comes down to it the Viper ACR and Corvette ZR1 still beat anything production from a major European manufacturer that isn't an Enzo around a race track (granted that the Veyron hasn't been tested yet). So cry more?

    Why don't Maserati and Pagani count?

    He's probably talking about Nurburgring laps, which are completely uncertified and done in traffic.

    edit: and the Enzo is not a homologation car, there's no race car based off of it.

    edit 2: he's also forgetting Porsche, and the Nissan GT-R, of course.



    And you are forgetting that Nissan is not in fact a European manufacturer, the fastest Porsche (A Carrera GT)is in fact 6 seconds slower than the Viper, and 2 slower than the ZR1.

    You're also forgetting that Nurb results are both verified with video recording and that THEY CLOSE THE FUCKING TRACK FOR MANUFACTURER AND MEDIA TESTING YOU FUCKING MORON.


    Or should we disqualify Nascar qualifying laps done on Friday because there are 40 cars on the track on Sunday?

    Jealous Deva on
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    NotASenatorNotASenator Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    THEY CLOSE THE FUCKING TRACK FOR MANUFACTURER AND MEDIA TESTING YOU FUCKING MORON.

    I never really realized that it was so easy for someone to make me dislike them.

    Can someone shoot me a PM when we are discussing the game again and not arguing unsubstantiated generalizations?

    NotASenator on
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    rtsrts Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Yeah wow that escalated quickly. I can see his perspective on American cars though since I share it. People are hard on them but the bottom line is that America is putting out production cars that are doing amazing times on tracks all over the world for significantly less money than their competitors. Honestly they shouldn't even be competitors because in the best case the American cars are a third of the price of the European cars you guys are comparing them to. I think that's what excites me so much.

    On top of that the ZR1 and Viper look kind of ridiculous in America...but compared to the MC12 and Zonda they look like perfectly reasonable daily drivers. They make the other cars look childish.

    I don't know, I am really looking forward to driving the ZR1 in Forza, I wish I could afford one in reality.

    rts on
    skype: rtschutter
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    Triple BTriple B Bastard of the North MARegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Joolander wrote: »
    europe has muscle cars?


    :P

    Didn't say that, either. I can't stress enough the importance of reading entire posts, duders.

    Now...how excited are we about this Forza 3? Me? I'm real excited.

    Triple B on
    Steam/XBL/PSN: FiveAgainst1
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    rtsrts Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Oh yeah and once again if you want to get on the PA Forza player list add PAForza3 as a friend on xbox live.

    rts on
    skype: rtschutter
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    JoolanderJoolander Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Triple B wrote: »
    Joolander wrote: »
    europe has muscle cars?


    :P

    Didn't say that, either. I can't stress enough the importance of reading entire posts, duders.

    the ":P" was to indicate that i was only kidding

    but then some people think europe does...

    Joolander on
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    NegrodamusNegrodamus Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    cakemikz wrote: »
    Oh yeah and once again if you want to get on the PA Forza player list add PAForza3 as a friend on xbox live.
    Isn't that game coming out in North America in like three days?
    I hear it's pretty good.

    Negrodamus on
    XBL: P3rcyMiracl3s | PSN: gumby24
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    JoolanderJoolander Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    i hear that too

    we should talk about it

    i just sent of a picture of my preorder receipt to get that sweet, sweet R8

    still debating on the $20 extra edition....

    is there any other way to get the VIP cars? thats all i care about


    also i friended PAForza3

    Joolander on
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    SUPERSUGASUPERSUGA Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    I'm going to duck back into the game in about an hour. Might brave some multiplayer with you guys if anyone's on.

    I had to take a break after trying to drag a Camaro SS with an engine swap around Amalfi Coast in the V8 contest. The sound of wheelspin followed by a loud thud is still echoing in my head. Any advice on how to make this sort of thing keep traction when accelerating? Already have wider racing tyres, some areo pushing it down and doing my best to feather the trigger. I guess the cobblestones of Amalfi don't help either. Amalfi and Positano have both still got to win me over, to be honest, after a few traumatic experiences racing them.

    SUPERSUGA on
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    NegrodamusNegrodamus Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    You could always turn TCS on.
    I run no assists, and just feather the throttle on high powered RWD cars like that. The "Stars and Stripes" series in FM2 was complete hell for me...trying to keep that Lingenfelter 'Vette straight, and stay in the lead.

    I find that slightly dropping the rear tire pressure helps too, as well as playing with the differential lockup points under acceleration. It's still all about throttle control though.

    Negrodamus on
    XBL: P3rcyMiracl3s | PSN: gumby24
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    SUPERSUGASUPERSUGA Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    At the moment I only have ABS on and, as much as I'd like to stay that way, I might have to start flipping the TCS back on for this car. Trying out some Racing Class cars earlier I found traction tougher to hold onto than on FM2, but maybe it's just me.

    SUPERSUGA on
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    EchoEcho ski-bap ba-dapModerator mod
    edited October 2009
    You're also forgetting that Nurb results are both verified with video recording and that THEY CLOSE THE FUCKING TRACK FOR MANUFACTURER AND MEDIA TESTING YOU FUCKING MORON.

    Hey. I'm busy writing a post in the mod forum here. How about you take your ritalin before I find some time to press buttons?

    Echo on
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    Uncle_BalsamicUncle_Balsamic Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Man, driving the Renault 5 turbo around Amalfi is such great fun.

    Uncle_Balsamic on
    2LmjIWB.png
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    mspencermspencer PAX [ENFORCER] Council Bluffs, IARegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    OK, I've been thinking about this and watching some videos about FM3 with the Fanatec 911 S wheel. I think I've figured out what my concern is.

    I don't race in real life. I don't work on cars, or even change my own oil. *entire forum gasps in horror* I never learned how to drive a stick. Way back in the 90's I would drop a ton of quarters on Atari Hard Drivin' and Race Drivin' and always used manual there, but that's my only experience with a racing game with a clutch and shifter.

    I think I want the Fanatec wheel with Clubsport pedals and the 6-speed shifter for two possibly-irrational reasons:
    1) I irrationally believe experience with this game -- repeatedly failing and then finally adapting to the game's feedback -- will teach me to be able to drive a manual in the real world.
    2) Like the jump from controller to wheel itself, I wonder if the additional gameplay challenges to master (shifting at the proper time; proper clutch use; and then matching revs while shifting using the right foot's toes on the brake pedal and heel on the gas) will be fun to play with and will eventually enable me to go even faster around a track. I don't care that it'll be more challenging and make me slower until I learn.

    Edit:
    Oops, in trimming a bunch of rambling wall of text stuff I cut out the question. Does it seem like I want the Fanatec wheel for the right reasons? I don't have a bunch of existing racing muscle memory to tap into. Just as I spent $1000 on an Ion kit and accessories because I wanted to make Rock Band drumming just as challenging as the real thing -- so the awesome kit causes me to miss notes more because I'm trying to play songs as a drummer would, not just match notes -- I want to spend more for this wheel only if it actually increases the challenge level and makes me learn more.

    If it's just a "gimmick" -- which to me means if it's just a shallow experience, interesting to learn for a little while and then easy to master -- I don't know if it's worth more money than the MS wheel I already have. For people who have their wheels, or even who have studied the wheel online more than I have -- what do you think? Is the extra challenge real, or does it fit my definition of a 'gimmick' by not really adding any serious challenge to the racing experience?

    mspencer on
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    FyreWulffFyreWulff YouRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    edited October 2009
    I learned manual in a day or two.

    What gets you is all the little things, like taking off while facing uphill, which I never figured out.

    FyreWulff on
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    xzzyxzzy Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    That's the way I see it. I love cars, but lack the funds to ever own a Ferrari, have a strong sense of self-preservation which means careening around a track on the edge of flying out of control seems incredibly silly to do, and there's all those environmental issues with race cars sucking up fuel like it's free.

    I figure buying a $400 wheel to get a taste of racing is actually the responsible decision. ;)

    xzzy on
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    JoolanderJoolander Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    I learned manual in a day or two.

    What gets you is all the little things, like taking off while facing uphill, which I never figured out.

    floor it and dump it

    solves EVERYTHING :)
    but seriously, dont.

    you gotta be quick or you gotta use the parking brake

    Joolander on
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    xzzyxzzy Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    I learned manual in a day or two.

    What gets you is all the little things, like taking off while facing uphill, which I never figured out.

    The thing that always got me was double clutching. Or clutch-less shifting. My dad, who has only ever driven stick, can do it no problem. Me? I turn the gearbox into confetti.

    xzzy on
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    rtsrts Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    mspencer - I have ordered the Fanatec Clubsport package but I have not received it yet. I suppose I can give a better review in regards to your questions when it arrives (likely Monday or Tuesday).

    But for now I will say that I doubt it will be a particularly great training tool for learning to drive stick. Learning to drive stick is more about learning to drive clutch. Moving the stick around is really easy. Getting a feel for the clutch can take time. And while the Fanatec setup does have a clutch, in Forza Motorsport 3 at least, you cannot stall the car. If there are other games which the wheel supports where you can stall the car, then it may well be a decent tool.

    And I don't change my own oil either, its messy, annoying...my condominium complex frowns upon it...and it's really cheap to get someone else to do it. So I wouldn't worry about. Driving stick for me is about fun. I just feel like its more fun than automatic. And thats the same reason I invested in the wheel. I think it will be a lot more fun than the controller and I am not a fan of the microsoft wheel. I guess it's just about immersion with me.

    rts on
    skype: rtschutter
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    mspencermspencer PAX [ENFORCER] Council Bluffs, IARegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    That raises a ton of questions about how clutches work in practice. I think I know roughly how they work mechanically -- I think my questions are all experiential and I need to just try it. But this isn't the Fanatec thread, it's the FM3 thread.

    I just felt kinda burned after falling in love with the Driving Force Pro with GT4 and then having to buy a second wheel for the 360. I guess what I need to keep in mind is, having a wheel that will work with my 360, my PC, and my PS3 will be awesome and well worth the extra money.

    Unless you get the wheel next week and learn something unexpected and horrifying, I'll probably be placing my own order on the 1st.

    OK, new set of questions and thoughts.

    Wouldn't it be cool if the game had some sort of training mode where you could do laps with an AI car keeping pace with you on the left or right, to force you to learn how to share a corner with someone? I feel like I'm not really ready for online races because I don't have this skill. I'll try to pick out a new line in my head that makes room for them, I'll take my corner a little slower so I can achieve that line -- but actually I'll go a lot slower because I haven't practiced that corner in that way, they will keep driving as if I'm not there, bump into me, and I go off the track while they keep going.

    Also I don't know how much stalling the engine concerns me, but I remember that was a hilarious and fun bit of feedback back when I was a teenager/twentysomething playing Race Drivin'. Short of crashing and seeing an instant replay, there's nothing like having to stop on the racetrack and start your engine again that tells you "you're doing it wrong."

    Also *shakes fist at Phantom Photon*

    Edit2: Speaking of, now that FM3 supports cars rolling and pitching at any angle, it's clear we need DLC tracks that have you performing crazy stunts with completely realistic physics, a la Race Drivin'. I'd love to see how a loop-the-loop would really work with FM3's physics.

    mspencer on
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    webguy20webguy20 I spend too much time on the Internet Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    for uphill starts in a manual Ive always been a fan of the e-brake as well. solves the problem nicely, especially if your stuck on an onramp in standstill traffic with cars behind you.

    webguy20 on
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    rtsrts Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    I think uphill starts are mostly just a problem for a few days after learning to drive stick. Though I have only driven 5 different manual cars so maybe it's specific to a car as well.

    rts on
    skype: rtschutter
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    SUPERSUGASUPERSUGA Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    If you're doing a hill start in manual and there's a car behind you there's really little reason not to use the handbrake.

    SUPERSUGA on
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    tofutofu Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    xzzy wrote: »
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    I learned manual in a day or two.

    What gets you is all the little things, like taking off while facing uphill, which I never figured out.

    The thing that always got me was double clutching. Or clutch-less shifting. My dad, who has only ever driven stick, can do it no problem. Me? I turn the gearbox into confetti.

    Luckily neither of those skills are particularly useful with any modern transmission.

    Unless you're driving a big rig.

    tofu on
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    xzzyxzzy Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    tofu wrote: »
    xzzy wrote: »
    FyreWulff wrote: »
    I learned manual in a day or two.

    What gets you is all the little things, like taking off while facing uphill, which I never figured out.

    The thing that always got me was double clutching. Or clutch-less shifting. My dad, who has only ever driven stick, can do it no problem. Me? I turn the gearbox into confetti.

    Luckily neither of those skills are particularly useful with any modern transmission.

    Unless you're driving a big rig.

    I drove a '66 VW for 10 years, it only has syncromesh on 2-4. I never did learn how to get into first without coming to a complete stop.

    xzzy on
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    mspencermspencer PAX [ENFORCER] Council Bluffs, IARegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    OK, I wasn't going to ask but I'll go ahead and ask.

    My impression of it (probably wrong -- I want people to correct me if it's not too much trouble) is, the clutch is either completely open, various levels of closed, or completely closed. While completely closed, if the wheels are immovable because the brake is set, the engine will pretty much die immediately. The engine is stopped from turning and has no choice but to die.

    On a level surface, my best guess is (if I break a smooth natural motion down into discrete steps) you start with the brake barely holding the car, you let up on the brake as you let up on the clutch, so that the car is just beginning to roll on its own as the clutch starts connecting the engine to the transmission. When facing an uphill, the challenge is that as soon as you let off the brake the car wants to roll backwards, so you need to make the transition very quickly. Right?

    And FM3 doesn't model this. You can be stopped in first gear with the clutch engaged and the brake pedal held and the engine will idle along nicely, like it never would in real life. (Personally I'd love to see some kind of feedback that would teach me to avoid these conditions. If the game won't support stopping and starting the engine, maybe we can enable a hidden menu option and have it keep the engine running but add some damage if you stall it out, for example. That might be a neat feature, I don't know.)

    Apparently the Fanatec shifter makes a kind of grinding noise if you shift without using the clutch. What happens in real life if you do that? I'm imagining gears kinda skipping along each other before finally settling into place, knocking off bits of metal as they go. Is it kinda like that? Do you feel the shifter push into position normally but do damage, or does the shifter not want to go into position?

    How does partially-closed work? It seems like having two friction pads grinding against each other at different speeds would be damaging, but it's also probably a necessary part of how a clutch works. Is it a situation where you can have the clutch partially closed for a little while, briefly while changing gears, but trying to hold a car in place riding the clutch would just overheat things and cause damage?

    mspencer on
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    xzzyxzzy Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Yeah, that's why starting on a hill is hard. After a while you learn the whole heel-toe thing where you rev up the engine prior to releasing the brake, but until then it's pretty scary. Especially in a low horsepower car.. there's always the fear you don't have enough revs to keep the engine from stalling. Problematic in a high horsepower car too.. overdo it, and you're going to lay down some rubber. Which is one of those things that's only funny in as a bar story.

    It's really bad these days because no one drives manual anymore, and will stop so far up your ass you can smell them. You screw up once.. you're probably going to keep everyone from moving until you get enough space for another attempt.

    xzzy on
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    Uncle_BalsamicUncle_Balsamic Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Everyone buy my Commander Keen sprite on the storefront :)

    I suck so much at the livery editor...

    keen2.jpg

    Uncle_Balsamic on
    2LmjIWB.png
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    peilpeil Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    For hill starts, when I learned to drive (manual) I was always told to use the handbrake (e-brake) to hold the vehicle until you had it sitting on the bite point, and then release the andbrake as you apply the accelerator.

    From experience, sitting on a steep hill holding the car on the clutch not only causes excessive premature wear, it also stinks to high heaven. The only thing I can compare it to is someone burning the filter on a cigarette, it makes you gag.

    Quick Q about the livery editor, or even photo mode, if I want to start messing around do I have to start the game with a controller, given the wheel just sucks when trying to use these features?

    peil on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    FiziksFiziks Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    At first when I was learning stick, I had to use the e-brake on hills, but eventually when you start to get a feel for the clutch, you really don't need it. Normally what I do is just rev the engine a little higher than normal, and let out the clutch in rapid succession.

    Anyway, I feel like more people should drive stick. Aside from traffic, I think it's fun.

    Fiziks on
    Cvcwu.jpg
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    JazzJazz Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    One of my all-time dream cars - probably top of the list, actually - is the Ferrari 360 Spider. Every so often I look up on the 'net for used ones, and one of the things I'd be specific about if ever I could actually afford one (hah!) is a stick shift. I don't care if the F1 paddle-shifters are objectively better, one of the great little Ferrari touches to me was and is that classic open-gate shifter.

    Finding one of those cars with a stick and the right color combination is remarkably tricky. ;-)

    Hmm... I wonder if I could find an open-gate shift mod for my Trans Am.

    Jazz on
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    VeeveeVeevee WisconsinRegistered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Less talky more showy. Pictures people, post some god damn pictures.

    Also, watch this

    Don't take that turn too fast.

    Veevee on
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    NegrodamusNegrodamus Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Interesting.

    Negrodamus on
    XBL: P3rcyMiracl3s | PSN: gumby24
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    DaedalusDaedalus Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Awesome! I'm gonna do that in one of the pickup trucks.

    Daedalus on
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    Uncle_BalsamicUncle_Balsamic Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Veevee wrote: »
    Less talky more showy. Pictures people, post some god damn pictures.

    th_sky.jpg

    th_db5l.jpg

    th_500it.jpg

    th_5turbo.jpg


    All not very good, but something at least.

    Uncle_Balsamic on
    2LmjIWB.png
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    xzzyxzzy Registered User regular
    edited October 2009
    Not a huge fan of the rubber ball physics when a car flips, but I guess that's better than not enough. Should make for some epic crashes.

    xzzy on
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