Except LttP's world size makes OoT feel like a backyard. The only sizable portion of OoT was Hyrule Field. Everything else was claustrophobic.
That is debatable. Lake Hylia and Gerudo Valley are sizable. In LttP you have Ice Lake and Desert Palace, and both don't really dwarf OoT in size.
Size of a game to run around in doesn't necessarily mean shit if most of it is empty. While I'd be willing to do a comparison of the two games and how much content there was in total, OoT feels like it has obvious big wide areas that don't have much substance to them.
I think any discussion of OoT's overworld needs to include the context. This was the very first time most of us where exploring a 3d world that even came close to feeling like a world. Shit like Might and Magic or Tomb Raider doesn't count. Ocarina of Time was mind blowing at the time.
The only really gigantic world map was the one in the first Zelda, though Link's Awakening and the Flagship games comes close. LttP only feels massive, it's a ton of dead space.
Xenogears of Bore on
3DS CODE: 3093-7068-3576
0
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
I think any discussion of OoT's overworld needs to include the context. This was the very first time most of us where exploring a 3d world that even came close to feeling like a world. Shit like Might and Magic or Tomb Raider doesn't count. Ocarina of Time was mind blowing at the time.
Just because something was a first attempt doesn't mean it's excused from being bad. I mean, it's certainly excused from "stop doing it like this please" since they had a chance to learn after.
It was kinda a rush job the hookers are also just three duplicates.
The funniest part about that joke is that going by sales in America and Japan it is much easier to find people four people with four GBAs then anyone with a gamecube.
FSA is amazing as is Four Swords on the GBA remake of LttP.
Four people
Five TVs.
At least four Gamecubes+Another Gamecube or Wii.
Four Gameboy Players.
Four Gamecube Controllers.
Four GBA>GCN link cables.
I've done it and its awesome. The best way to play FF:CC and FSA. We've also used it for regular four swords and a few other situations. Best if the fifth tv is actually a projection screen.
No, I think you will need GBAs as the link cable that comes with the game wouldn't fit on a DS.
edit: basically
I've seen that comic so many times and I've only just now noticed that the GBA SPs are mirrorred. What the fuck?
i loved crystal chronicles even though we could only scrounge together two gameboy-to-gamecube cables
it would have been 100% fucking perfect if it didn't require all that extra shit, despite the things you could do on your gameboy screen being kind of cool
i would have loved to play that game with 4 people
All this talk about the relative strength of the storylines in the Zelda games has got me thinking...
I think the reason I like WW and MM so much is that they both have sympathetic villains. In MM, while we have good reason to despise him and want him dead, I couldn't help but feel sorry for him. He was just a lonely kid wanting attention, after all. And Ganondorf in WW was certainly threatening, but again I was very sympathetic to his situation. It's been a while since I've played, but I remember the bit where he is describing the destruction of his people which was rather moving, and of course his speech at the end of the game which Speed has elaborated on.
Didgeridoo on
0
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
edited June 2010
It gave Ganondorf character, as opposed to, "MUAW HA HA I WANT TO DESTROY SHIT AND RULE THE LAND." And they didn't necessarily do much if you think about it. The art style of the game really helps.
I've said it before and I'll say it again - the final battle of Wind Waker is pretty much one of the most epic things in video games.
It's atmospheric, but it ain't epic. Far too easy.
Gameplay challenge alone doesn't determine epicness of a game. :?
When I define things as being epic in games, I mean it in the context of the entirety of that game (which I then measure against other games). The artwork, character design, the animation, the setting, the music and the sound - all of it comes together right there in that final fight in Wind Waker. I mean look at where the game starts you off - all of it snowballs into that incredible clash, which is like the best representation of Link fighting Ganondorf ever.
you play games to have fun and read novels/watch movies/tv to have evocative moments via storytelling. I really don't give a shit that Mario Galaxy's story is oh no, Bowser kidnapped the Princess again and we need to save her and collect stars to do so. The game is fun! Similarly, Twilight Princess controls really well, except the shield bash which takes a little getting used to and is basically optional, and has a lot of good puzzles that require some thinking and thus I really like it. More examples: Super Metroid, the original Legend of Zelda, LttP, and really most games Nintendo has ever made. They're fun, that's what I want in my gaming experience, I'm relatively shallow (though I will get back to characterization in a second).
It's a matter of what you're looking for. I play games for gameplay and if I want a story one will develop on its own (I play lots of turn based strategy games). Other people play games for other reasons like you seem to. That's fine! Doesn't invalidate my basic disinterest in such things. And my preference for pure gameplay doesn't invalidate your interest in story and emotion in your gaming experience.
I would say two more things though, first: this analysis makes Metroid Prime really fucking brilliant in that if you WANT things about the setting to make the game deeper and the fall of the Chozo via the space pirates and Metroid Prime to make the experiences more evocative there, they're there. If you don't, you can largely just play the game.
The other thing is that for me the game with the most character I've ever played is this one:
but none of that character is scripted. This forum has the fairly famous story of Patrick Stewart, but everybody who ever played the game has something like that. Have some imagination, people!
I'm really not talking about story in the way that you are, and I realize that the way I phrased that post might have confused that. Everything I talked about with providing motivation for fighting Ganon in WW and OoT, that's not happening on a conscious level. I didn't once think about it until I wrote that post, and tried to put into words why I thought those Ganon fights worked while the TP one didn't.
For example, I'd say Mario games have exactly the correct amount of story that they need. In modern Mario games there's a tiny bit of exposition, maybe a few cutscenes at the start or the end. The mood Mario games seek to evoke is one that's overall joyful and carefree, and the limited narrative aids the other elements of the game in evoking that mood.
Zelda, on the other hand, wants to evoke the mood of an epic adventure, and if you want that you need a villain that the audience can really hate. You don't need lots of cutscenes or dialogue to do that, though it's one option. But you can't expect any kind of dramatic impact if the main villain of a story steps aside in the final act to make room for an entirely different villain that hasn't been built up at all.
For a different kind of example, look at the movie Die Hard. It's certainly no Citizen Kane, but it still manages to suck the viewer in and evoke emotion, because it has a relatable heroes and hatable villains.
Events that happen in the context of a story are inherently more meaningful than events that happen in a vacuum.
See, I'm more with enlightenedbum here- I do not require a story to motivate me to kill a boss. Not because it wouldn't be appreciated if it was there, but because games suck at dramatic impact and storytelling. They're sufficiently bad at it that paying attention to the story pulls me out of the game rather than the reverse.
Yes, you get the occasional exception that's worth a damn, but the only Zelda that manages to build atmosphere that isn't so clunky it actually pushes me out of immersion is Majora's Mask.
99% of video games have worse dialogue and sotrytelling than Die Hard. Shouldn't be that way, but it is.
So excuse me for actually needing good storytelling before I bother paying attention to it.
What games are good at is worldbuilding. TP's atmosphere of subtle menalcholy and decay does that more effectively for me than OoT's shove-down-your-throat saturday morning cartoon visuals.
It's atmospheric, but it ain't epic. Far too easy.
Gameplay challenge alone doesn't determine epicness of a game. :?
When I define things as being epic in games, I mean it in the context of the entirety of that game (which I then measure against other games). The artwork, character design, the animation, the setting, the music and the sound - all of it comes together right there in that final fight in Wind Waker. I mean look at where the game starts you off - all of it snowballs into that incredible clash, which is like the best representation of Link fighting Ganondorf ever.
Well, personally that fight was not epic for me, it was more anticlimatic. The entire setup too that fight is amazing and soo great. And then it falls apart when the fight itself start and ganondorf turns out to not actually be a threat in any way whatsoever. Its one of the reasons WW is my least favourite 3D zelda, the end felt so weak and it didnt help that the fucking triforce fetch quest was the only thing before it.
The real problem with Wind Waker is that the first two dungeons are great, and lovely to look at, and then the rest are terrible, soul-sapping acres of grey and more grey.
Plus the way the game gave you an ocean to explore then ruined all the fun of discovery by making it ridiculously orderly, so you knew there was one thing in every square.
Plus treasure hunting involving just moving to marks on your map instead of doing it more like Red Dead Redemption now has.
Xagarath on
0
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
The real problem with Wind Waker is that the first two dungeons are great, and lovely to look at, and then the rest are terrible, soul-sapping acres of grey and more grey.
Plus the way the game gave you an ocean to explore then ruined all the fun of discovery by making it ridiculously orderly, so you knew there was one thing in every square.
Plus treasure hunting involving just moving to marks on your map instead of doing it more like Red Dead Redemption now has.
One thing in every square as far as one secret treasure. A single panel could contain that hidden treasure, a triforce piece, a map, etc. Come on.
Also, the temple you take Makar into disagrees with you on the rest being gray! And the Tower of the Gods isn't an all-gray thing either.
The game, in a very obvious manner, descends into being almost all gray. It matches how much closer to the end and to Ganon you're getting, more or less. It's an easy theme to get. I mean, if you don't like it then I can't do anything to convince you otherwise. All I can say is that it appears to have been done on purpose.
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
edited June 2010
Let's use A Link to the Past as an example. This is off memory.
Light World:
First Dungeon: Green and purple and gray.
Second Dungeon: Yellow-ish-brown and brown and some green.
Third Dungeon: Gray and red.
Hyrule Castle: Gold and gray and some red.
Dark World:
First Dungeon: Gray on gray.
Second Dungeon: Gray on gray with some blue for water.
Third Dungeon: Gray with brown.
Fourth Dungeon: Gray and green.
Fifth Dungeon: Gray and blue.
Sixth Dungeon: Gray and green.
Seventh Dungeon: Brown as fuck.
Ganon's Tower: Red and gray.
I'm not saying there were no other colors and that's how it should be, I'm saying exactly what you posted Henroid: gray and maybe something else. And every "gray" dungeon in WW is the same way. Dragon Roost has red lava. Tower of the Gods has blue water and gold trim. Only the earth temple can really be called super gray, but it's alright to have one like that every now and then. I still really liked the design of that place.
Zelda thread: Two pages of news, 96 pages of arguing about games, the timeline (not as much as you'd think), and dungeon color themes.
...but anyway, back to arguing.
The wolf sections in TP really ruined the game for me, though when I say that, it should be mentioned that TP is still probably tied for 2nd place in my book. They don't make the game bad, but they hold it back. As has been said, maybe I don't like being a wolf, maybe I just want to be a sword-and-boarder with a green tunic. Not to mention that the wolf sections are tedious scavenger hunts littered with obvious shadow-thing ambushes. The only cool wolf moments are when you're in town, rescuing midna, or spying on people who can't see you.
Seeks on
0
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
edited June 2010
I was supporting what you said Sporky. Tower of the Gods has as much color to it aside from gray as almost any given dungeon from LttP. To claim it's all gray is silly.
Henroid on
0
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
I like colorful dungeons, but I have to say my best memory from WW comes from the gray castle.
Completely desolated and colorless, at the bottom of the ocean. A sad Hyrule Castle theme playing softly in the background. Somehow entering that castle left a feeling with me, more than the other dungeons in any Zelda.
The real problem with Twilight Princess is that the middle two dungeons are great, and lovely to look at, and then the rest are terrible, soul-sapping acres of brown and more brown.
Plus the way the game gave you a world to explore then ruined all the fun of discovery by making it contain nothing, so you knew there was no point in exploring.
Posts
It's still one of the best looking games of all time.
Size of a game to run around in doesn't necessarily mean shit if most of it is empty. While I'd be willing to do a comparison of the two games and how much content there was in total, OoT feels like it has obvious big wide areas that don't have much substance to them.
Very well
Yo, SPOILERS IN THIS VIDEO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtQ9zNXMyxE
EDIT: And I agree with XoB
https://medium.com/@alascii
Just because something was a first attempt doesn't mean it's excused from being bad. I mean, it's certainly excused from "stop doing it like this please" since they had a chance to learn after.
I've seen that comic so many times and I've only just now noticed that the GBA SPs are mirrorred. What the fuck?
The funniest part about that joke is that going by sales in America and Japan it is much easier to find people four people with four GBAs then anyone with a gamecube.
FSA is amazing as is Four Swords on the GBA remake of LttP.
But according to Penny Arcade that is my fault.
https://medium.com/@alascii
But it's pretty odd; among all my friends who played video games (and it's a pretty considerable number), not one of us owned a GBA
Still wish they had let us do like a four-system link with four TVs or something. We would have done that!
What you'll need:
Four people
Five TVs.
At least four Gamecubes+Another Gamecube or Wii.
Four Gameboy Players.
Four Gamecube Controllers.
Four GBA>GCN link cables.
I've done it and its awesome. The best way to play FF:CC and FSA. We've also used it for regular four swords and a few other situations. Best if the fifth tv is actually a projection screen.
i loved crystal chronicles even though we could only scrounge together two gameboy-to-gamecube cables
it would have been 100% fucking perfect if it didn't require all that extra shit, despite the things you could do on your gameboy screen being kind of cool
i would have loved to play that game with 4 people
Whelp!
I guess its time to play wind waker again!
Looks kinda like a kid friendly version of the Donnie Darko rabbit.
Although the in the head scene of WW was pretty cool not enough praise is given to the halfway mark
actually it's more like "Ugh... again?"
https://medium.com/@alascii
"ah, piss, this is really going to put a crimp in my day
"was going to varnish the windowsills and everything"
Except he just laughs it off because he's fucking Ganondorf.
I think the reason I like WW and MM so much is that they both have sympathetic villains. In MM, while we have good reason to despise him and want him dead, I couldn't help but feel sorry for him. He was just a lonely kid wanting attention, after all. And Ganondorf in WW was certainly threatening, but again I was very sympathetic to his situation. It's been a while since I've played, but I remember the bit where he is describing the destruction of his people which was rather moving, and of course his speech at the end of the game which Speed has elaborated on.
I've said it before and I'll say it again - the final battle of Wind Waker is pretty much one of the most epic things in video games.
Gameplay challenge alone doesn't determine epicness of a game. :?
When I define things as being epic in games, I mean it in the context of the entirety of that game (which I then measure against other games). The artwork, character design, the animation, the setting, the music and the sound - all of it comes together right there in that final fight in Wind Waker. I mean look at where the game starts you off - all of it snowballs into that incredible clash, which is like the best representation of Link fighting Ganondorf ever.
Yes, you get the occasional exception that's worth a damn, but the only Zelda that manages to build atmosphere that isn't so clunky it actually pushes me out of immersion is Majora's Mask.
99% of video games have worse dialogue and sotrytelling than Die Hard. Shouldn't be that way, but it is.
So excuse me for actually needing good storytelling before I bother paying attention to it.
What games are good at is worldbuilding. TP's atmosphere of subtle menalcholy and decay does that more effectively for me than OoT's shove-down-your-throat saturday morning cartoon visuals.
Well, personally that fight was not epic for me, it was more anticlimatic. The entire setup too that fight is amazing and soo great. And then it falls apart when the fight itself start and ganondorf turns out to not actually be a threat in any way whatsoever. Its one of the reasons WW is my least favourite 3D zelda, the end felt so weak and it didnt help that the fucking triforce fetch quest was the only thing before it.
Ceterum autem censeo, Carthaginem esse delendam
Plus the way the game gave you an ocean to explore then ruined all the fun of discovery by making it ridiculously orderly, so you knew there was one thing in every square.
Plus treasure hunting involving just moving to marks on your map instead of doing it more like Red Dead Redemption now has.
One thing in every square as far as one secret treasure. A single panel could contain that hidden treasure, a triforce piece, a map, etc. Come on.
Also, the temple you take Makar into disagrees with you on the rest being gray! And the Tower of the Gods isn't an all-gray thing either.
The game, in a very obvious manner, descends into being almost all gray. It matches how much closer to the end and to Ganon you're getting, more or less. It's an easy theme to get. I mean, if you don't like it then I can't do anything to convince you otherwise. All I can say is that it appears to have been done on purpose.
the tower of the gods is incredibly gray
all I can say is that my graydar is going off something awful
Light World:
Second Dungeon: Yellow-ish-brown and brown and some green.
Third Dungeon: Gray and red.
Hyrule Castle: Gold and gray and some red.
Second Dungeon: Gray on gray with some blue for water.
Third Dungeon: Gray with brown.
Fourth Dungeon: Gray and green.
Fifth Dungeon: Gray and blue.
Sixth Dungeon: Gray and green.
Seventh Dungeon: Brown as fuck.
Ganon's Tower: Red and gray.
Killed the exploration angle.
...but anyway, back to arguing.
The wolf sections in TP really ruined the game for me, though when I say that, it should be mentioned that TP is still probably tied for 2nd place in my book. They don't make the game bad, but they hold it back. As has been said, maybe I don't like being a wolf, maybe I just want to be a sword-and-boarder with a green tunic. Not to mention that the wolf sections are tedious scavenger hunts littered with obvious shadow-thing ambushes. The only cool wolf moments are when you're in town, rescuing midna, or spying on people who can't see you.
The Legend of Zelda: Forum Threads
Completely desolated and colorless, at the bottom of the ocean. A sad Hyrule Castle theme playing softly in the background. Somehow entering that castle left a feeling with me, more than the other dungeons in any Zelda.
Like PM me I will give you my email and then you attach a text or word doc to it?
I would really appreciate it.
I am at work and can't access hardly anything.
3DS FC: 5343-7720-0490