I have a friend named Matt.
A little while ago I am out with a mutual friend and I meet someone she knows, a girl named Sarah. We hit it off and I get her number. I ask her what she's doing next week and she says shes busy during the week but shes going out on saturday and I'm welcome to come.
Jokingly I ask my friend what my chances are, she says I might have a bit of trouble as Matt likes her as well. (e: to clarfiy, my friend said this, not Sarah)
So, I turn up saturday to the bar Matt going to be at. Its me, a couple other people, Sarah...and Matt. I immediately decide, fuck it. I'm not going to get in some stupid pissing match where he and I both spend the entire evening trying to one up each other for the attentions of this girl. So I get a drink, make conversation, chat to some people at the bar and generally just try to have a good time.
Sarah flirts with me though, and it seems to make Matt visibly agitated. He takes her aside at one point to ask why shes "ignoring him". After the bar we go back to a friends house where he hijacks her into a corner for a long talk about feelings and shit.
This was a few weeks ago and I havent really spoken to her since. The other night though we went out for Matts birthday and it was pretty much a repeat perfomance. She gets flirty, Matt gets annoyed, she gets taken away towards the end of the night for a heart to heart. Except this time she indicated that she would like to meet up with me again this week.
As for whats going on between them as far as I can tell its something like this: They've known each other for a while, Matts always had a thing for her. I think she sort of likes him but is totally driven away by his clinginess. Other the clinginess he's a a fairly attractive, funny guy, and shes flirty so I can totally see them as having been fun together until the point where he declared his feelings and started getting jealous.
I do like her quite a lot. but Matt seems totally batshit crazy about her, like he's pinned his last hope of happiness on her approval which is at the same time whats sinking his chances and making her really uncomfortable. He does suspect that I like her, he's made a few sort of bitter "jokes that arent really jokes" in that vein. If go out with her am I being a dick?
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If it were me I'd probably go for it, it's not Matts problem unless he wants to make it one and that's his issue. How good of friends are you with Matt?
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That being said, it sounds like Matt will get pissy about this, and you'll probably have to deal with it.
If you don't want to feel like a dick, talk to Matt about this. State your stance etc. You like her too and it's your right to pursue a chance of a relationship, especially when it seems Matt won't be much of a 'challenge' to her affections. He'll almost certainly get pissy and selfish.
But as long as you're honest, and Matt's a friend worth a damn; things should work out fine with him eventually AND you'll be in a relationship! Everyone wins!
I'm not saying this has to be malicious, she might not even be doing it consciously, but I've known people (men and women alike) who've behaved like Sarah, and some of them were just seeking attention.
I mean, she jokes with you that Matt's interest in her might prove to be an obstacle between you two hooking up, but then goes on to flirt with you frequently enough (and repeatedly) to get little heart to hearts from Matt all the same?
Sounds like she kind of likes things as they are currently.
While that's entirely possible, the easiest answer seems more likely to me.
Probably she's turned off by Matt (I know I would be) and interested in the OP, simple as that. I haven't known many girls to be interested in stalkerish attention. If Matt were being cooler about this, then I'd agree that she would be enjoying the attention and hey that's her choice.
My ex had a friend of hers that would crush on any boy she showed interest in, including me. It was pretty much an acknowledged issue and she just said "fuck you" in regards to it. They still managed to be friends and the friend got over it soon enough anyways.
From what i can gather, the 'heart-to-hearts' are initiated by him. Also, it's a mutual friend who says Matt might be an obstacle. Best to get that from Sarah herself before making that kind of judgement.
As to the attention-seeking part? Maybe. Maybe not. Best thing to do to avoid that is to just go for it. If he's rebuffed too often for no apparent reason, then just stop bothering.
I've thought of this. She's a model and really freaking hot so the thought has crossed my mind that she probably gets guys drooling over her all the time and enjoys it a little.
Whether she enjoys the attention or not is a moot point though. I can deal with it, if I started freaking out about that then that would just be me acting out my own insecurities.
I probably wasn't clear there but the mutual friend who introduced us who made that joke, Not her. She seems to enjoy Matts company when he's not doing the heart to heart thing. Halfway through the night though he'll go into a sulk and she hates it.
I've known him a good four years from college and I go out with him a lot. but we're not tight tight. I remember telling a closer friend that if it was me and him in the same situation we'd probably have talked it out by now. But I'm not so close to Matt that we typically have chats about "feelings", I tried at the end of the first night and it was just awkward.
It's not your or Matt's decision. If two friends like a girl it's up to her who gets lucky. There's a level of mutual respect "bro's", as it were, have for eachother, where if he's trying to get some you don't make a move, UNLESS she goes after you first. And she did. So go for it. She's yours buddy.
Which is fair enough -- if I had a choice between a guy I didn't like who was way too clingy, and his friend who I do like but would mean I had to interact with the clingy guy I didn't like who now also felt super jealous, I would say "well maybe both choices suck."
If she says no well there's your answer, but I bet the answer won't be that. :winky:
So long as you guys hit it off and Matt isn't around to be the wet towel, he'll likely get over it. Just don't do it around him, that's respectful enough where really you have no obligation to be.
If he's upset over it long-term then you may want to reevaluate your friendship, I simply avoid relationships with people that are drama bombs and I think it is why my social life is relatively drama free. (relatively!)
I think perhaps The Code should be amended to include that rule... as it stands currently, Matt has dibs because, well, he called dibs first.
If she wasn't getting something out of her relationship with Matt she would stop hanging out with him. Yes Matt initiates the heart to heart with her, but she stays and has the conversations with him. She's assertive enough to flirt with you but not shut Matt down or make an excuse to get away?
I just don't buy it, this girl she probably isn't into you or Matt, she's into the drama.
Yes.
As someone who was in your shoes in highschool, and then again when I started working with my now-girlfriend, I can tell you that the fact that this girl doesn't want to date Matt is entirely Matt's problem, and you're not betraying him by pursuing her/accepting her advances. Protip for the Matts of the world: if a girl doesn't want to date you, acting possessive, jealous and "taking her aside for chats about your feelings" is a great way to completely alienate and piss her off.
I wouldn't even talk to Matt until you've determined whether Sarah will go out with you, which may reveal whether this is really sort of an attention getting act that she's gotten into the habit of or if she really does like you and wants to be in a relationship. If she does agree to go out with you and you can manage it, try to make it through a few dates before Matt finds out or you tell him about it. If after a couple of dates there's not really anything there or she turns out to flirt with other guys around you or some such, then you can put an end to it and go back like things were without Matt even having the option to be a dick about it.
Of course if things go well you'll have to tell Matt, which I'd suggest you do together, and maybe at a semi-public place. I don't know Matt other than what you've said in this post, so maybe he's a great guy who feeds orphans or something, but just based on this post I wouldn't want to be alone with the guy when delivering him some news about how a girl he seems to think is his, is in fact not his, or anyone's at all really.
One last word of advice and this comes from experience because my brother-in-law married the pretty girl that flirted and all the boys in their little social group sort of wanted. If she turns out to be the type of girl who just loves being pursued or getting guys interested in her and otherwise being sort of the center of attention, I would just get out of that relationship right away, because it doesn't end well.
I've asked them both. His response was "we had a thing" and then shut up. Her response was "nothing" so either he was making a big deal in his head over what turned out to be nothing, or its possible I guess they had a one night stand or something. Just from looking at their body language I dont think its the latter though.
Like I say, I've considered this. Thats the reason I didnt really speak to her for a while until this friday, I figured it wasnt really worth chasing after someone who could just enjoy flirting a lot and not really be that into me. Its only on friday she mentioned definately wanting to see me again this week.
The thing is (and this is the part that makes me feel like a dick) I've sort of been profiting off his faliure. I've got no emotional stake in the matter so I've just been rolling with it, he's so emotionally involved he keeps screwing up and by comparison making me look better.
There's a big difference between 'hey, I'm inviting Sarah over, I really like her so hands off whilst I make my move' and 'hey, I've been repeatedly knocked back by this girl and there's no chance of ever getting her unless I wear her down, and chase away all her other options, so steer clear'.
i like you fallout. you're just very level headed and cool.
and regarding matt. yeah i agree with those who say its his problem and you should go for it. if she hasn't said "i do" shes pretty much fair game. its the other guy's problem if he cant keep his lady. anyway.
I guess I can sympathize a little with him. He's obviously just very insecure. Going behind his back just seems like it'd give him more reason to be all weird.
Plus, respect. For him and for you.
You could be looking into a mirror, Matt could be what you become after the emontinal explosion of what this girl really could be.
And fuck guys like Matt. She's not his to claim and it would never work out anyway. A good friend of mine was in the same situation a few years back (he was you). But both my friend and the girl were such passive wimps about it back then that she ended up dating the "Matt" in this situation for a year anyway. Of course it ended horribly because the other dude was a jealous, possessive, and insecure prick, and in the end everybody was miserable for the duration. Hell, you'd probably be doing Matt a favor by making Sarah officially unavailable.
Girl is her own person, don't let over-protective knights in shining armor dissuade you from what would otherwise be a perfectly normal start to a relationship.
Oh and he'll probably get upset, but that's his problem.
If Matt is your friend (and not just an acquaintance or something), back off and deal with it. Is he being a dick? Yeah, kind of. That happens though. He's your friend, and you can cut him some slack.
Going out with this girl without talking to him about it first (and being willing to take "No" for an answer) will make you a dick.
(That doesn't mean you shouldn't do it, but that's not what you were asking.)
It should be noted though, that any girl who allows this type of behavior usually does so because they like the attention and having a handy back up around, and also being able to play guys off of each other, so enter at your own risk op. (At least that's how it's been in my experience anyway.)
Ok so this is basically the central question. If I were to go out with her on a date do I tell Matt beforehand? Or do I wait to see if something actually happens? If nothing were to happen, should I just shut up and never tell him?
The first seems kind of presumptious considering as its not even 100% anything will, the second options kinda underhanded.
I'm going to say no to beforehand, because seriously, I would bet dollars to donuts he'll try and sabotage you. The question really should be which you're more interested in, the friendship with Matt, or the possible relationship with the girl, because should it go well enough that you start dating, it will more than likely ruin your friendship with Matt for at least awhile if not forever.
That said, yeah, if you go on a date and you're going to continue doing so, be a man and tell him straight to his face, "look bro, I know you have a thing for her, but this is how it is, you're going to have to deal with it."
The idea is that you should value your friends, and that you shouldn't just ditch them because you're in a new relationship. Which is sound. However, has Matt come up to you and said "she's my girl, you are not allowed to date her"? Or has it been this weird implication thing where no one really talks about what the deal is?
If you go out with her and hit it off, I would be surprised if Matt didn't come up at some point in the conversation. All you have to do is ask her "do you guys have a thing or what is the deal with that because I don't want to step on my friend's toes." Based on what she says, that's how you breach the subject to Matt. If she says "we went on a couple dates, but we're not an item," then that's how you tell him. If she says he's a clingy weirdo, you tell him that you went on a date with her and she unfortunately told you she wasn't interested in him, but didn't have the heart to tell him to his face. And that she's into you and you wanted to be up front because you knew they were friends.
If they're not dating, then he doesn't have dibs. Moving in on a friend's territory is not some kind of rule, it's more of a "don't be an asshole" policy. As in, if your friend says "There's this girl at the coffee shop, I'm going to ask her for her number and see if she wants to go out this weekend to a show," you don't rush over there, sweet talk her, and ruin your friend's chances.
But if he's got a weird crush with a girl who isn't interested, and she makes an advance or flirts with his friend, then he doesn't get "dibs" because "dibs" mean you have a chance. Which apparently Matt doesn't.
so no, you're not a dick, matts being a dick
By that logic we should basically do nothing that one of our friends might not like regardless of whether their opinion is irrational. Hell, by that logic we should do what our friends tell us over what we'd like to do.
By all means, tell Matt because better it comes from you than from some other source, but don't consider yourself doing him a favour by sparing his feelings and not pursuing this girl.
Look the problem here is that Matt lacks balls.
Fact of the matter is the situation is never going to change because he will never act on them, and lets face it, if he finally does, judging from the actions of the chick, chances are she will say no.
Why do three people need to be unhappy because one person is acting like a dick?
Satans..... hints.....
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Matt is the jealous clingy type (as evidenced).
Sarah is the flirty type.
Matt can never expect it to work with Sarah unless A) Sarah changes her flirty type, or he changes his jealous clingy type.
What's the number one rule for relationships to work? Don't change who you are for someone else.
The two types aren't compatible. Screw Sarah, give the apples to Matt, and tell him you did it for him, to save him future greif of Sarah banging the cashier at Sack-n-Pack while Matt's paying for the groceries.
That's quite a leap of logic.
Obviously Matt is jealous of her giving other guys attention, but I don't believe anyone (in the thread or in the situation as described) is labelling her a "slut".
Glances have been made as to possible attention whoring (an unfortunate choice of words, perhaps, but for brevities sake, we all know what I mean), but that's another facet of the matter, and may prove to be inaccurate anyway.