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What the fuck North Korea?

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Posts

  • FandyienFandyien But Otto, what about us? Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Well, one of my weird interests that I constantly pursue is North Korea. That place is awful. And the successor Kim-Jong Il chose? Even worse.

    The whole place is stuck in this bizzare totalitarian setting. Everything, technologically, architecturally, and otherwise is stuck in 1975. The whole place is a horrible corrupt brainwashing entity brimming with sex slavery, corruption, brutality, drug dissemination, and all kinds of things that we in the west hear mentioned but don't usually think about the sheer extent of the brutality

    I dunno, I've been doing lots of reading and thinking about North Korea, and I genuinely would fight to free the people there

    A lot of stuff that has incensed me has come from an obviously biased but nonetheless unique source, www.dailynk.com

    It's published by refugees and partisans, so it's hella not balanced, but it also has personal contacts with North Korean citizens and lots of information you could only get from someone who had lived in that hellish quagmire for decades

    Fandyien on
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  • laughingfuzzballlaughingfuzzball Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Artreus wrote: »
    I say we invade already.

    It couldn't possibly turn into another vietnam.

    That's not why we aren't invading though. Even if it wouldn't be as bogged down as vietnam was.. bad bad things would happen if we invaded.

    In Vietnam, we were fighting a guerrilla force at a time when our military was not prepared to combat guerrilla tactics.

    North Korea's military is mostly conventional, though the "liberated" populous could easily turn into an insurgent force as it did in Iraq. Even in that contingency, the US military is much better suited to such a conflict than it once was. While certain parallels are possible somewhere down the line, I suspect they'd be overwhelmed by the risk of drastic, indiscriminate and irrational retaliatory attacks.

    The US has allies near North Korea who could very reasonably be seriously harmed if North Korea becomes less stable.

    laughingfuzzball on
  • Grey GhostGrey Ghost Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    I think those are solid personal reasons, Fandy

    Grey Ghost on
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  • FandyienFandyien But Otto, what about us? Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    North Koreas military is huge but awful. The citizenry is not content. Shit, huge contigents of the army are nigh on dissident

    Since every single North Korean youth is conscripted out of middle school and forced into the military environment (which is almost as awful as being a farmer or generic shitty person) that generates a shitload of discontent among families and students

    Military conscription is technically voluntary - you sign a form upon graduation. I remember reading about a whole middle school class that refused to sign the 'voluntary' form. The students and their entire families were all sent to collective farms (effectively a life sentence of total misery and toil), with the exception of students related to officials in Pyongyang who basically said "Hey, wait, these guys aren't the sons or daughters of regular citizens" and they were allowed to join the officer corps.

    NK might have a huge military, but it's also a shit-ass one.

    Fandyien on
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  • AMP'dAMP'd Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Solid personal reasons include: he believes in the cause of liberating the North Koreans

    AMP'd on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • FandyienFandyien But Otto, what about us? Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    AMP'd wrote: »
    Solid personal reasons include: he believes in the cause of liberating the North Koreans

    Also, dissemination of methamphetamine and sex slaves over the chinese border and the established tacit relationship between the two nations of returning refugees to be murdered by the NK government

    My brother is going to a chinese port town to teach english for six months in august that is as close to the NK border as you can really get, so I'm sorta scurred for him, as it were

    Fandyien on
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  • Grey GhostGrey Ghost Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    AMP'd wrote: »
    Solid personal reasons include: he believes in the cause of liberating the North Koreans

    Well, that would be opposed to something a politician would say, like that we aim to liberate oppressed peoples, when really we want access to a valuable natural resource

    Not that NK has any that I know of, but I'm just saying Fandy honestly supports helping these people

    Grey Ghost on
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  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited June 2009
    Grey Ghost wrote: »
    Let's just put a giant dome over the whole place. It'll give 'em what they want, total lack of contact with the outside world, plus it would be hilarious to see them launch a nuke and have it hit a wall :mrgreen:

    Why don't you just put the whole world in a bottle?

    I knew someone would do this

    Me Too! on
  • ArtreusArtreus I'm a wizard And that looks fucked upRegistered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Artreus wrote: »
    I say we invade already.

    It couldn't possibly turn into another vietnam.

    That's not why we aren't invading though. Even if it wouldn't be as bogged down as vietnam was.. bad bad things would happen if we invaded.

    In Vietnam, we were fighting a guerrilla force at a time when our military was not prepared to combat guerrilla tactics.

    North Korea's military is mostly conventional, though the "liberated" populous could easily turn into an insurgent force as it did in Iraq. Even in that contingency, the US military is much better suited to such a conflict than it once was. While certain parallels are possible somewhere down the line, I suspect they'd be overwhelmed by the risk of drastic, indiscriminate and irrational retaliatory attacks.

    The US has allies near North Korea who could very reasonably be seriously harmed if North Korea becomes less stable.

    This is the bad stuff I was talking about.

    Honestly I would be 95% behind a war if certain conditions were met, but that is not saying much as I even supported the Iraq war's idea if not the execution. However, while I have said previously that we do have the resources to devastate North Korea, that is not enough. That is actually the situation we want to avoid. Right now the United States does not have the resources to mitigate damage to the region and stick around to rebuild the country from the ground up. Conflict would completely destabilize the region in a variety of ways. First of all, militarily. It is more stable now than it had been in the past, with China being a major player for the "good guys" nominally. Now is actually a better chance than in the past and in the future, in the future China will be a much larger player and will get to dictate the terms, but for now it is stuck doing what the world wants more or less. In the past it was firmly in the "bad guys" camp from our point of view and was just weak enough that we didn't have a lot of control over it, if that makes any sense.

    But right now our economies are so intertwined it would be senseless for China to do anything too crazy. However, there are other military regimes in the region that would probably take advantage of the chaos in the smaller countries.

    The biggest factor is the economic and human cost. It would economically devastate the region. Even assuming the South avoided all physical harm from a war, the North's collapse would cost far more in aid and refugee support than it could possibly afford because the North is so damn destitute right now. In the past, while the North still had a strong economy going, maybe, but not anymore. China would take a large hit as well, maybe one it could technically "afford", but not one it is by any means willing to.

    This is to say nothing of the retaliation by the North Koreans. They do not have the delivery capability to launch nukes any further than their neighboring countries. They don't have the bombers or missiles capable of long distance delivery so it would have to be by ground or something similar, maybe a boat. We have a good chance of intercepting that sort of thing maybe, but the biggest threat there is just it being smuggled out to a non-state actor such as the taliban.

    The conventional damage would be far greater. It is by no means strong enough to win a war, but the first couple of days or weeks would be chaotic enough and the army would hold together enough to do too much damage to the South and Japan before we halt their advance.

    This all brings two scenarios into play. I am pretty damn confident in what I have said thus far but I am wandering out of my real purview right now so I would like some input here because I'm kind of speaking out of my ass. 1) China runs in to "help" territory from the South that the North took out. Well, who is to say they wouldn't just keep it, along with the North, leading to a situation that may be "better" than what we have now, but still far from ideal. 2) The Peoples Republic of China takes advantage of the destabilization of the region to make a move on the Republic of China.

    I am by no means confident in those later assessments but they seem somewhat likely from what I know.


    So to wrap up, I think if we had not been involved in several lengthy and costly wars we might, with the backing of a large world coalition, be able to mitigate physical war damage to the region that isn't North Korea itself, but the economic costs right now would be completely unacceptable without unprecedented amounts of support from the entire globe, which is just unrealistic.

    Artreus on
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  • tsplittertsplitter Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    do anyone else think "nuke anything you can" will be part of kim jong-il's will?

    tsplitter on
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  • ThawmusThawmus Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Fandyien wrote: »
    You know, if we went to war with North Korea, I find myself thinking "Man, I'd join up and do my part, because fuck that place".

    Which is totally weird, because I'm an anti-war pot smoking hippie.

    I'm not an anti-war pot smoking hippie, but I am a fucking pansy, that would rather run away from a fight than find out who I'm fighting in the first place.

    And frankly, I feel the same way. If we decided to fuck up NK, I'd probably sign up after work today. As has been mentioned before, there's pretty much no room for any less-than-altruistic intentions, if you decide to end NK. You're doing it for world peace and saving the folks over there. You won't get used for some BS, or someone else's ulterior motive.

    Just, if we do decide to put an end to NK, send me over with a deck of 52.

    Thawmus on
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  • ArtreusArtreus I'm a wizard And that looks fucked upRegistered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Also on a personal note, I both want this to be over and I don't. For a little while now I've been hoping to end up in an embassy position in that region and I've recently been focusing on the Korea's. It is a weird thought to think that your career choice might be wrong because the country you are hoping to help might not be there anymore. I mean I could just shift back to US-Japanese-Chinese relations, because those are going to remain players for quite some time and they are still up and coming. But I think by the time I graduate and get into the field, something big will have happened.

    Artreus on
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  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited June 2009
    Anti-war pot smoking hippies

    More like pussies

    Me Too! on
  • DruhimDruhim Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited June 2009
    wiggin you don't get to call anyone pussy
    you're like a toothless dog barking frantically at a harmless kitten because you need to feel important

    Druhim on
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  • NuzakNuzak Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Druhim wrote: »
    wiggin you don't get to call anyone pussy
    you're like a toothless dog barking frantically at a harmless kitten because you need to feel important

    this thing pays for itself

    Nuzak on
  • FandyienFandyien But Otto, what about us? Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Artreus, what you are forgetting is that North Korea is already totally devestated. A decade ago the country was so wracked by famine nearly everyone and their mother starved.

    And NK-China relations are strained at best. North Korea disseminates methamphetamine and sex slaves into eastern China. China produces tons and tons of shitty products that make their way into the Korean market at very little profit, since the NK economy is basically ten million people illegallly selling each other rice.

    Indeed, I think if the west did go to war with NK, we'd have some hella staunch backing from the Chinese government. North Korea makes them look bad, and doesn't do a lot for the PROC.

    Fandyien on
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  • J3pJ3p Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    I love clicking his face a bunch of times to hear the wonderful chorus of "oooooooo"s at the end

    J3p on
    +./\ 50 ?. 50
  • laughingfuzzballlaughingfuzzball Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Artreus wrote: »
    Also on a personal note, I both want this to be over and I don't. For a little while now I've been hoping to end up in an embassy position in that region and I've recently been focusing on the Korea's. It is a weird thought to think that your career choice might be wrong because the country you are hoping to help might not be there anymore. I mean I could just shift back to US-Japanese-Chinese relations, because those are going to remain players for quite some time and they are still up and coming. But I think by the time I graduate and get into the field, something big will have happened.

    Would your studies be broad enough that you could encompass both?

    Flexible enough that you could easily switch over to U-J-C if it came down to it?

    If the North Korea thing gets too real, it could eliminate the need for diplomats able to work with North Korea. Anything short of that, though, will increase the demand drastically. Beyond that, the culture doesn't disappear just because it's political status changes, unless you're counting on total genocide both at home and abroad.

    laughingfuzzball on
  • Mr. Henry BemisMr. Henry Bemis Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    it's angelic

    Mr. Henry Bemis on
    Nothing is true; Everything is permitted
  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited June 2009
    Druhim wrote: »
    wiggin you don't get to call anyone pussy
    you're like a toothless dog barking frantically at a harmless kitten because you need to feel important

    Wasn't serious!

    Me Too! on
  • FandyienFandyien But Otto, what about us? Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    I just have a WWII esque sensation about war with North Korea. Even the Chomsky within me supports military action. Why aren't we actually fighting the good fight - since we're the good guys - for once?

    Srsly

    Fandyien on
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  • tsplittertsplitter Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    just for once i would like to beat a dictator with the power of love and hugs

    tsplitter on
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  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited June 2009
    Fandyien wrote: »
    I just have a WWII esque sensation about war with North Korea. Even the Chomsky within me supports military action. Why aren't we actually fighting the good fight - since we're the good guys - for once?

    Srsly

    Because Kim Jong Il has the funniest fuckin' haircut

    Me Too! on
  • J3pJ3p Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    and bacon supply containers

    J3p on
    +./\ 50 ?. 50
  • Grey GhostGrey Ghost Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Nuzak wrote: »
    Druhim wrote: »
    wiggin you don't get to call anyone pussy
    you're like a toothless dog barking frantically at a harmless kitten because you need to feel important

    this thing pays for itself

    Oh my god

    Grey Ghost on
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  • FandyienFandyien But Otto, what about us? Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
  • Grey GhostGrey Ghost Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    There are no good guys
    There are no bad guys

    We'll never again have a war that is almost universally agreed to be necessary to stop the spread of real evil

    It's all just shades of gray in this world

    Grey Ghost on
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  • Penguin IncarnatePenguin Incarnate King of Kafiristan Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Fandyien wrote: »
    I just have a WWII esque sensation about war with North Korea. Even the Chomsky within me supports military action. Why aren't we actually fighting the good fight - since we're the good guys - for once?

    Srsly
    Fandy, would you mind if I used to term "benign bloodbath?"

    Penguin Incarnate on
  • FandyienFandyien But Otto, what about us? Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Fandyien wrote: »
    I just have a WWII esque sensation about war with North Korea. Even the Chomsky within me supports military action. Why aren't we actually fighting the good fight - since we're the good guys - for once?

    Srsly
    Fandy, would you mind if I used to term "benign bloodbath?"

    No

    Fandyien on
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  • Peter EbelPeter Ebel CopenhagenRegistered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Fandyien wrote: »
    I just have a WWII esque sensation about war with North Korea. Even the Chomsky within me supports military action. Why aren't we actually fighting the good fight - since we're the good guys - for once?

    Srsly

    Gigantic army, mountainous terrain, massive conventional fire power aimed at friendly civilians. No doubt North Korea would be dismantled right fucking quick, but the cost would be high. Also the cost is humans.

    And it's been a good long while since we've seen a successful nation building after a war.

    Peter Ebel on
    Fuck off and die.
  • Penguin IncarnatePenguin Incarnate King of Kafiristan Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Fandyien wrote: »
    Fandyien wrote: »
    I just have a WWII esque sensation about war with North Korea. Even the Chomsky within me supports military action. Why aren't we actually fighting the good fight - since we're the good guys - for once?

    Srsly
    Fandy, would you mind if I used to term "benign bloodbath?"

    No
    Well, I'm still not going to.

    Penguin Incarnate on
  • laughingfuzzballlaughingfuzzball Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Grey Ghost wrote: »
    There are no good guys
    There are no bad guys

    We'll never again have a war that is almost universally agreed to be necessary to stop the spread of real evil

    It's all just shades of gray in this world

    The vast majority of wars throughout history were of this sort. It's nothing new.

    Even most modern wars were like this. WWII was just such an extreme counterexample that it colors our perception of a just war nearly in the absolute.

    laughingfuzzball on
  • ArtreusArtreus I'm a wizard And that looks fucked upRegistered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Fandyien wrote: »
    Artreus, what you are forgetting is that North Korea is already totally devestated. A decade ago the country was so wracked by famine nearly everyone and their mother starved.

    And NK-China relations are strained at best. North Korea disseminates methamphetamine and sex slaves into eastern China. China produces tons and tons of shitty products that make their way into the Korean market at very little profit, since the NK economy is basically ten million people illegallly selling each other rice.

    Indeed, I think if the west did go to war with NK, we'd have some hella staunch backing from the Chinese government. North Korea makes them look bad, and doesn't do a lot for the PROC.

    Oh, my entire point was that North Korea is so devastated that if whatever the hell it has going for it collapses, everybody around it will have to pick up the tab, which they have thus far avoided having to pay for. And I'm well aware of the famine, it got so bad the government even let people set up free market farms out in the countryside for a while.

    And as far as the NK-China thing, I wasn't saying China would fight on North Korea's side so much as they would do what they have been trying to do for a while and that is absorb North Korea. They have already been teaching that North Korea is actually historically Chinese in the borderland areas for a while now, so something is shaping up in that regard. My concern there was that China would try to get a cut of South Korea under the guise of helping mop up the North's forces. So I'm not saying China would at all come in on North Korea's side in a big fight.

    And by devastate North Korea I meant take out it's capability to wage war. It has zero to little capability to wage a prolonged war of any kind, it's danger lies in causing a lot of damage in a short period of time. What I was saying is that right now, we have the power to wipe out their military. But as we have both pointed out, their economy is so close to non-existent at this point that if the house of cards comes tumbling down, everybody in the region is going to have to pick up the check, which would be bad under the best of circumstances, and it even worse in today's economy.

    So, I'm saying that while China would not attack us necessarily, they might try pulling some shifty shit I am not entirely comfortable with. They would most definitely contribute arms to the fight, but the end result would be messy as hell.

    I need to stress how bad a collapse of the North Korean regime as it stands would be. While something does need to be done, it would be incredibly expensive to rebuild the country or even just take care of all the refugees. While it might be the humanitarian thing to do for the citizens of the North, it would fuck up the economies of the surrounding nation's something Fierce. Even China, with the enormous economy that it has would be hurt pretty badly.

    Also fuzz, my main focus has actually been in Japanese culture and history, with some general political science thrown in. The North Korean focus has only been a recent passion of mine and it was something I wanted to start doing more. It would not be very hard to switch back to Japan and China, especially since my language training in Japanese and Chinese have had more success so far.

    Artreus on
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  • ArtreusArtreus I'm a wizard And that looks fucked upRegistered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Grey Ghost wrote: »
    There are no good guys
    There are no bad guys

    We'll never again have a war that is almost universally agreed to be necessary to stop the spread of real evil

    It's all just shades of gray in this world

    The vast majority of wars throughout history were of this sort. It's nothing new.

    Even most modern wars were like this. WWII was just such an extreme counterexample that it colors our perception of a just war nearly in the absolute.

    Even then, you have shit like the bombing of Dresden that makes you go ":(" again.

    Artreus on
    http://atlanticus.tumblr.com/ PSN: Atlanticus 3DS: 1590-4692-3954 Steam: Artreus
  • laughingfuzzballlaughingfuzzball Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Artreus wrote: »
    Grey Ghost wrote: »
    There are no good guys
    There are no bad guys

    We'll never again have a war that is almost universally agreed to be necessary to stop the spread of real evil

    It's all just shades of gray in this world

    The vast majority of wars throughout history were of this sort. It's nothing new.

    Even most modern wars were like this. WWII was just such an extreme counterexample that it colors our perception of a just war nearly in the absolute.

    Even then, you have shit like the bombing of Dresden that makes you go ":(" again.

    The methods were somewhat ambiguous, but the causes were significantly less so. One both fronts, there was a clear aggressor without reasonable cause accompanied by inhumane behavior in the extreme.

    Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki play major roles in keeping it away from an absolutely black and white situation, but aren't nearly enough to make it nearly as gray as the norm.

    laughingfuzzball on
  • ArtreusArtreus I'm a wizard And that looks fucked upRegistered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Artreus wrote: »
    Grey Ghost wrote: »
    There are no good guys
    There are no bad guys

    We'll never again have a war that is almost universally agreed to be necessary to stop the spread of real evil

    It's all just shades of gray in this world

    The vast majority of wars throughout history were of this sort. It's nothing new.

    Even most modern wars were like this. WWII was just such an extreme counterexample that it colors our perception of a just war nearly in the absolute.

    Even then, you have shit like the bombing of Dresden that makes you go ":(" again.

    The methods were somewhat ambiguous, but the causes were significantly less so. One both fronts, there was a clear aggressor without reasonable cause accompanied by inhumane behavior in the extreme.

    Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki play major roles in keeping it away from an absolutely black and white situation, but aren't nearly enough to make it nearly as gray as the norm.

    Hiroshima was much, much less grey in my opinion than Dresden and Nagasaki.

    Artreus on
    http://atlanticus.tumblr.com/ PSN: Atlanticus 3DS: 1590-4692-3954 Steam: Artreus
  • ThawmusThawmus Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Artreus wrote: »
    Artreus wrote: »
    Grey Ghost wrote: »
    There are no good guys
    There are no bad guys

    We'll never again have a war that is almost universally agreed to be necessary to stop the spread of real evil

    It's all just shades of gray in this world

    The vast majority of wars throughout history were of this sort. It's nothing new.

    Even most modern wars were like this. WWII was just such an extreme counterexample that it colors our perception of a just war nearly in the absolute.

    Even then, you have shit like the bombing of Dresden that makes you go ":(" again.

    The methods were somewhat ambiguous, but the causes were significantly less so. One both fronts, there was a clear aggressor without reasonable cause accompanied by inhumane behavior in the extreme.

    Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki play major roles in keeping it away from an absolutely black and white situation, but aren't nearly enough to make it nearly as gray as the norm.

    Hiroshima was much, much less grey in my opinion than Dresden and Nagasaki.

    I think they all ended up pretty grey afterwards! Ho ho!!!


    Too soon? :?

    Thawmus on
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  • GafotoGafoto Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    We sure fucked shit up in Japan.

    Gafoto on
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  • Zombies Tossed My Salad!Zombies Tossed My Salad! Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Oh snap

    Zombies Tossed My Salad! on
  • MrMonroeMrMonroe Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    and yet now they are one of the most successful modern nations on the planet

    clearly the answer is to nuke Africa

    MrMonroe on
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