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End of Dark Reign *Speculation, but spoilers may come up*

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    wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Are you kidding? He's consolidated his power very effectively from what I've seen. I mean, he's personally destroying Tony, managing and leading a team of powerful psychos, created a SHIELD replacement that's full of jackbooted thugs that are loyal to him, and leads a powerful cabal whose actions will continue to strengthen his position as the chief protector of America. He's doing many of the terrible things that Tony was accused of, but more effectively and without anyone questioning his authority. His lack of a moral compass means he can do all of this without hesitation, but his intellect means he's actually having to shelve his craziness in order to maintain his position. As terrible a person he is, Osborne is actually delivering on the promise of keeping the peace. If you were an average Marvel citizen, you'd probably be singing his praises.

    wwtMask on
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    cshadow42cshadow42 Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Why not have Dark Reign continue indefinetly?

    At least that way, there is some rationale behind this revolving door prison policy that seems to exist. I mean, c'mon! The Wrecking Crew alone must have escaped from prison at least fifty times already. And how many times would the US really allow the Atlanteans to invade before sanctioning a kill order on Namor?

    And have you ever wondered how insurance companies view this whole hero vs. villain dynamic? Whenever a villain robs a bank, it seems like there is so much more property damage done than is actually being stolen. I would half expect an insurance representative to show up on the spot with a bullhorn calling out "Drop the lampost Spider-man! It costs the city $40,000 to replace that!". There should be a drinking game in which you slam a shot every time a car gets totaled. Not to mention the risk to bystanders that occurs whenever there's a brawl. The lawsuits that occur whenever someone gets injured must cost the city a fortune.

    I can imagine Norman Osborn making these points, and he works with the insurance companies to pay off the crooks in secret. The money he saves the city would make him a modern day hero. And at least you can count on Osborn to sanction terminations on any of the worst offenders. There is no second chance, first offense Osborn is going to gut you literally. That'd make crime go down a lot!

    I say let Dark Reign continue on in some form or another. Besides, its not like its a new concept... A villain seizing the reigns of a powerful autonomous government agency has been a reoccuring theme. The Red Skull must've done that at least 5 times already.

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    psycojesterpsycojester Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    It helps if you stop thinking of Norman Osborn as just the Green Goblin, think of him as a political figure and he's no less shady, high handed, power-mad and corrupt than any of Bushes Neo-Con cronies. He's like a much fitter Rumsfeld

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    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited June 2009
    wwtMask wrote: »
    Are you kidding? He's consolidated his power very effectively from what I've seen. I mean, he's personally destroying Tony, managing and leading a team of powerful psychos, created a SHIELD replacement that's full of jackbooted thugs that are loyal to him, and leads a powerful cabal whose actions will continue to strengthen his position as the chief protector of America. He's doing many of the terrible things that Tony was accused of, but more effectively and without anyone questioning his authority. His lack of a moral compass means he can do all of this without hesitation, but his intellect means he's actually having to shelve his craziness in order to maintain his position. As terrible a person he is, Osborne is actually delivering on the promise of keeping the peace. If you were an average Marvel citizen, you'd probably be singing his praises.
    Yes, he's able to do all that by editorial fiat. It makes absolutely no sense that Osborn would actually be listened to by anybody, or would able to be able to do any of those things.

    The keeping the peace is debatable as well, as seen in the related miniseries.

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    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited June 2009
    It helps if you stop thinking of Norman Osborn as just the Green Goblin, think of him as a political figure and he's no less shady, high handed, power-mad and corrupt than any of Bushes Neo-Con cronies. He's like a much fitter Rumsfeld
    Yes, but it makes no sense that he's at that level. There's absolutely no transition from "nanobots in the thunderbolts" to "in charge of the Department of Superhumanity" or whatever. It only makes sense if you take into account "oh, this is how it's supposed to happen because metablahblahblah", which is not particularly good storytelling.

    Not to mention that again, he's really not on that level, and never was. He may be an effective Spidey villain (when he knows who Spidey is), but this is waaaaaaay out of his league.

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    psycojesterpsycojester Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    I'm with Mask on this one, yes Osborn is a complete and utter bastard and a hypocrite, but so are the majority of people in positions of power and influence. Admittedly i don't follow Spiderman but last time i checked he got his company OMDed back into his position and i can see him having a pretty massive bribe/'campaign contribution' war chest to buy support with and i don't doubt that running the Thunderbolts probably looks great on your resume and lets you build up a handy collection of favours and blackmail to support your career.

    Not to mention that the media coverage from the whole Secret Invasion would be a real boost to his popularity ratings, you can't say that America has never backed a dodgy candidate for high office based on a war, and in the aftermath you can bet that footage of Osborn blowing the head off the enemy leader would be getting pretty much constant airtime.

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    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Well, I guess this is why you're reading the event and I'm refusing to have anything to do with it, basically. You find it credible, I find it laughable.

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    psycojesterpsycojester Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Look at the past 8 years of American politics, i'm willing to accept that you people will elect anybody.

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    Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Osborn was appointed, not elected. I'm guessing that zcongressional approval for the guy who saved the Earth would be pretty smooth as well, like approval for everything put into place after 9/11.

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    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited June 2009
    I guess that to me, the idea of him even getting security clearances is ridiculous, so since the whole basis of the appointment is wrong, none of it makes any sense. This isn't even going into any of the non-Spidey people giving a shit about what he says.

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    psycojesterpsycojester Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Lots of footage of you shooting Skrull queen in head+ astute grandstanding, manipulation of public image and applied political pressure= profit.

    Whats not to get? Nobody gets the top jobs based on skill or merit, its all about who you know and how much pressure you can apply. As we keep saying Osborn would pretty much be the media darling after the Thunderbolts performance in Washington and the Skrull Queen headshot. If he started campaigning for the appointment on the strength that level of public sentiment there isn't a politician on Earth who'd try and cockblock him openly, it'd be political suicide.

    It'd be like trying to get a job straight after WW2 and you could honestly say "you know i killed Hitler"

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    WildcatWildcat Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Plus Nobby probably knows where half the bodies are buried, metaphorically speaking. And possibly literally too.

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    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited June 2009
    What I'm talking about has nothing to do with politics. Osborn literally should not have been able to get the security clearances required for the job he has.

    This completely ignores the fact that he should have absolutely no pull with anyone not a Spidey villain, and doesn't have the ability (which I'm aware doesn't actually matter, but still). The whole of Dark Reign is just ridiculousness to me, and it keeps me from even tolerating the event.

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    psycojesterpsycojester Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    This completely ignores the fact that he should have absolutely no pull with anyone not a Spidey villain

    Why not? Why can't the man have a life outside when Spiderman sees him.

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    WildcatWildcat Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    What I'm talking about has nothing to do with politics. Osborn literally should not have been able to get the security clearances required for the job he has.
    And what happens when the person in charge says, "I don't give a damn about his clearances, just get him in the damn office by tomorrow"?

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    TexiKenTexiKen Dammit! That fish really got me!Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Wildcat wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    What I'm talking about has nothing to do with politics. Osborn literally should not have been able to get the security clearances required for the job he has.
    And what happens when the person in charge says, "I don't give a damn about his clearances, just get him in the damn office by tomorrow"?

    ....you have Bill Pullman as President?

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    WildcatWildcat Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Works for me!

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    wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Seriously Fencing, are you kidding? He's rich, he owns a company that is in the same league as Stark International, and he's got political connections out the wazoo by virtue of those first two (seriously, how else did he get out of trouble for being the Green Goblin?). In the last issue of DA, he spun Clint's accusations so skillfully that you basically look like a douchebag if you question his integrity or intentions. He's got a silver tongue, is politically astute, and has a sharp mind. He spent a year publicly hauling in unregistered heroes, which was very much what the public wanted after Stamford. Then he followed that up by making the most important headshot in the history of the Earth, in full view of most of the world. Jesus himself couldn't have stopped Osborne from taking over Tony's position.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
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    Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    It helps that, as was stated earlier in the thread, Green Goblin was only really a problem for Spider-Man. That means that most of his crimes fell below the notice of the general public and the government (though not SHIELD and other superheroes), and that the only person who could really speak to Norman's evilness was a fugitive who'd never accept a subpoena, if one was even offered.

    Robos A Go Go on
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    frayfray Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    What I'm talking about has nothing to do with politics. Osborn literally should not have been able to get the security clearances required for the job he has.

    This completely ignores the fact that he should have absolutely no pull with anyone not a Spidey villain, and doesn't have the ability (which I'm aware doesn't actually matter, but still). The whole of Dark Reign is just ridiculousness to me, and it keeps me from even tolerating the event.

    What makes you say Norman doesn't have the ability? He's been portrayed somewhat inconsistently over the years (although who in comics hasn't) but he's generally written as one of the smartest villains around in the MU. Plus he's managed to dissasociate himself to a large extent (at least in the public's mind) with the Green Goblin. I can easily see him being politically astute enough to maneuver his way into this kind of power.

    fray on
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    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited June 2009
    fray wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    What I'm talking about has nothing to do with politics. Osborn literally should not have been able to get the security clearances required for the job he has.

    This completely ignores the fact that he should have absolutely no pull with anyone not a Spidey villain, and doesn't have the ability (which I'm aware doesn't actually matter, but still). The whole of Dark Reign is just ridiculousness to me, and it keeps me from even tolerating the event.

    What makes you say Norman doesn't have the ability? He's been portrayed somewhat inconsistently over the years (although who in comics hasn't) but he's generally written as one of the smartest villains around in the MU. Plus he's managed to dissasociate himself to a large extent (at least in the public's mind) with the Green Goblin. I can easily see him being politically astute enough to maneuver his way into this kind of power.
    Okay listen. I'm not arguing that the way he's being portrayed now isn't able to do the job, and he's politically adept, and whatnot. I'm just saying the tonal shift between what he was even during the Thubnderbolts and now is so dramatic that it's just not credible to me.

    Fencingsax on
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    psycojesterpsycojester Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    It seems pretty consistant with Thunderbolts to me, Norman is brilliant but a sociopath who struggles with a psychotic split-personality.

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    TheSkyIsBurningTheSkyIsBurning __BANNED USERS regular
    edited June 2009
    I hope the comics get over this event craze so I can afford more each fucking week.

    TheSkyIsBurning on
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    Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    It's not like you have to read every book associated with an event, or even any books associated with an event.

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    DarkWarriorDarkWarrior __BANNED USERS regular
    edited June 2009
    I dont get why anyone wouldn't like the idea of dark reign. The cabal sure since, what the hell is Loki doing thats so important hes worth including?

    The only thing Id say is that people seem to be doing very little to no actual heroics lately simply fighting unwinable fights with their clones.

    And noone has killed Reed off yet.

    DarkWarrior on
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    psycojesterpsycojester Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    I dont get why anyone wouldn't like the idea of dark reign. The cabal sure since, what the hell is Loki doing thats so important hes worth including?

    Better to have the God of Mischief inside pissing out than outside pissing in?

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    Blingston HughesBlingston Hughes Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    She'd have to squat.

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    psycojesterpsycojester Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    It's hardly Loki's fault that Thor comes out slowly these days.

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    DarkWarriorDarkWarrior __BANNED USERS regular
    edited June 2009
    Unless thats part of his plan.

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    DJ EebsDJ Eebs Moderator, Administrator admin
    edited June 2009
    I hope the comics get over this event craze so I can afford more each fucking week.

    You'll be waiting for a long time.

    DJ Eebs on
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    psycojesterpsycojester Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    I hope the comics get over this event craze so I can afford more each fucking week.

    You'll be waiting for a long time.

    The only thing strong enough to kill an event these days is another event.

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    BostonGanglerBostonGangler Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Since Civil War started, in real-time, what percentage of the time has there been an ongoing event in Marvel? Does Initiative count?

    Seems to me like the transitions to Civil War > Initiative > World War Hulk > Secret Invasion > Dark Reign were pretty immediate. Maybe some time between Initiative and WWH and WWH and SI, but CW transitioned immediately to Initiative, and SI immediately to Dark Reign.

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    Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    I wouldn't call Initiative or Dark Reign events, per se. They're more like bridges between events where the repercussions of a previous event are played out. To me, it's not an event without an accompanying game-changing miniseries.

    Robos A Go Go on
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    DJ EebsDJ Eebs Moderator, Administrator admin
    edited June 2009
    Initiative and Dark Reign aren't really events, really. They're more like Decimation in that they're like a line wide theme, but with no miniseries at the heart.

    DJ Eebs on
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    Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Yeah, theme was the word I was looking for.

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    psycojesterpsycojester Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    I wouldn't call Initiative an event, but i'd be fine with calling Dark Reign one given the amount of mini's its producing.

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    cshadow42cshadow42 Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Events have gotten to be a huge money maker (for DC and Marvel), so I wouldn't expect them to go away any time soon. And to be honest, I've been liking the Marvel events lately. They present opportunities to portray different characters in situations they wouldn't normally be involved in. I think the events are a good way of fighting writing fatigue; they make interesting filling while the series authors get a chance to take a breath and develop their other storylines. In my opinion, I've seen a trend in that the writing quality of the different series seems to improve shortly after the conclusion of an event tie-in.

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    psycojesterpsycojester Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    I think we could have done without Secret Invasion and just segued from World War Hulk into Dark Reign (buggered if i know how the details on that would work)

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    Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    Osborn would have to defeat the Hulk.

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    FaynorFaynor Registered User regular
    edited June 2009
    I enjoyed Secret Invasion, but I think it may have stood up better if it had stayed in the Avengers books, like Bendis' original intention.

    That aside, I kind of like Norman fucking with stuff enough that if he died everyone would remember him as awesome. It's the kind of conniving that he would do. "Hey, Spider-Man, you suck! Osborn was right!"

    Anyways, I can definitely see an "Avengers, Assemble!" ending with Steve Rogers, Tony Stark, and Thor coming back together. I personally hope Tony gets to oust Osborn rather than Spider-Man. I mean, he pretty much made Tony a pariah.

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