The lesson that no matter what you do, you breed something negative aside from something positive, or the other way around.
I'd say it was because you have no choice in the matter. You cannot avoid generating a 'negative' outcome with the beggar. Ever. And then you have to hear Kreia tell you that you should be mindful that your actions mean more than just the immediate result... Meanwhile, you still don't have the full story of your own Madalorian Wars actions even though you aren't an amnesiac...
It leaves the lesson a bit hollow when you're forced to make a choice that always, without fail, results in a negative outcome and then you have to be lectured about it by the woman who is using you for her own ends...
To be fair I believe it's beyond the scope of videogames in general to truly permit action and reaction on the scale Kreia is teaching you to perform over the course of the game.
Sure, sure. I've read the LP and I 'get' the general message she's giving. I understand that some things must be necessarily limited simply because it's a game. (I always chuckle whenever they mention, in a meta way, that you're playing a game.) But if her message is so important, why is the outcome always negative? I mean, if bad shit is going to result from whatever you chose to do, then why do anything at all?
And it's beyond a 'bad things can result from immediately good actions' thing. The Jedi, the Galactic Senate, they all try to do 'good' things and have, to this point, all ended up being bad. But if anything, it's a mixed message in the game when they tell you that Revan did bad things because it was for the greater good and G0-T0 wants you to do some underhanded things to provide for the greater good, but telling a beggar man to fuck off (and both responses to him are extreme good or bad, never neutral) results in somebody else being killed.
Jolee Bindo was a better example on neutrality (until he wasn't...).
The lesson that no matter what you do, you breed something negative aside from something positive, or the other way around.
I'd say it was because you have no choice in the matter. You cannot avoid generating a 'negative' outcome with the beggar. Ever. And then you have to hear Kreia tell you that you should be mindful that your actions mean more than just the immediate result... Meanwhile, you still don't have the full story of your own Madalorian Wars actions even though you aren't an amnesiac...
It leaves the lesson a bit hollow when you're forced to make a choice that always, without fail, results in a negative outcome and then you have to be lectured about it by the woman who is using you for her own ends...
To be fair I believe it's beyond the scope of videogames in general to truly permit action and reaction on the scale Kreia is teaching you to perform over the course of the game.
Sure, sure. I've read the LP and I 'get' the general message she's giving. I understand that some things must be necessarily limited simply because it's a game. (I always chuckle whenever they mention, in a meta way, that you're playing a game.) But if her message is so important, why is the outcome always negative? I mean, if bad shit is going to result from whatever you chose to do, then why do anything at all?
And it's beyond a 'bad things can result from immediately good actions' thing. The Jedi, the Galactic Senate, they all try to do 'good' things and have, to this point, all ended up being bad. But if anything, it's a mixed message in the game when they tell you that Revan did bad things because it was for the greater good and G0-T0 wants you to do some underhanded things to provide for the greater good, but telling a beggar man to fuck off (and both responses to him are extreme good or bad, never neutral) results in somebody else being killed.
Jolee Bindo was a better example on neutrality (until he wasn't...).
The Sith do ridiculously evil things for power the Jedi do ...noble, not good, things to maintain order. Revan did bad things for the purpose of saving life not preserving just hte order as Jedis decree it. The beggar thing shows you that if you do the easiest, most obvious good thing or the flat out bad/evil thing without thinking about it or planning ahead it can go to pot very easily so sometimes the best thing to do is not use your considerable power to influence things one way or another.
Sure a Jedi can go beat up those slavers but the slaves might then seek out revenge and wipe out lots of innocents. The Kreia path would be to consider what to do and make the best decision based not on maintaining the Jedis interpretation of order or increasing ones own power.
I still will have a problem with it because in this example, you're not even using your Jedi abilities. Hell, you're not even using your non-Jedi abilities. You're either giving somebody five spacebucks or you're telling them to go fuck themselves. And it's then used as the anvil against which Kreia beats you with her 'morality' hammer.
Even if your initial intention was exactly what Kreia wanted, to not get involved with the beggar (beyond not being able to avoid him...), a kind of 'bootstraps' way of thinking, you're still stuck acting the ass and the result is always the same. And it isn't like you haven't already had an earful from her about not always jumping into a situation to resolve it.
But then, you are playing a game. At that point, it's like the devs are mocking the player for actually playing it like it was a game and not taking it seriously as some kind of glorious jump-off point to a greater philosophy and way of life. So you trigger an unavoidable encounter with limited choices and you're told you're a jackass either way... It muddies Kreia and her sub-plot just a tad.
I got to the end of his story where you have to re-connect with his son. So I go to Korriban, find the son, talk to him a bit and he gets angry and I have to kill him. So I load up the previous save, talk to him again, this time he doesn't kill me, he says he needs proof of the Sith's evil nature.
I wander around looking, don't find anything, get bored and continue with the main plot, I'll get back to him later. Anyway, I pass all the tests, end up fighting both the Sith leader and the his girl lieutenant. Problem solved right? Um, no.
As I head back to the Sith temple, every Sith wants to fight me, so i have to kill them all, including Carth's son.
I looked up what I 'should' have done, and apparently the evidence of the Sith's evil is in the bad guys room, which can only be accessed if he's alive and you unlock the door or something.
Shit like that pisses me off, now I can't complete the game the way I wanted...
No no, I just think it's a little unfortunate that I was unable to complete that story without knowing that I would have had to do it before the Sith trials.
Ah... Well, this is a bit late, but never, ever trigger the 'end game' until you're absolutely done with what you want to do. BioWare slams that gate down with the kind of finality that makes a beheading look wishy-washy...
The lesson that no matter what you do, you breed something negative aside from something positive, or the other way around.
I'd say it was because you have no choice in the matter. You cannot avoid generating a 'negative' outcome with the beggar. Ever. And then you have to hear Kreia tell you that you should be mindful that your actions mean more than just the immediate result... Meanwhile, you still don't have the full story of your own Madalorian Wars actions even though you aren't an amnesiac...
It leaves the lesson a bit hollow when you're forced to make a choice that always, without fail, results in a negative outcome and then you have to be lectured about it by the woman who is using you for her own ends...
To be fair I believe it's beyond the scope of videogames in general to truly permit action and reaction on the scale Kreia is teaching you to perform over the course of the game.
Sure, sure. I've read the LP and I 'get' the general message she's giving. I understand that some things must be necessarily limited simply because it's a game. (I always chuckle whenever they mention, in a meta way, that you're playing a game.) But if her message is so important, why is the outcome always negative? I mean, if bad shit is going to result from whatever you chose to do, then why do anything at all?
And it's beyond a 'bad things can result from immediately good actions' thing. The Jedi, the Galactic Senate, they all try to do 'good' things and have, to this point, all ended up being bad. But if anything, it's a mixed message in the game when they tell you that Revan did bad things because it was for the greater good and G0-T0 wants you to do some underhanded things to provide for the greater good, but telling a beggar man to fuck off (and both responses to him are extreme good or bad, never neutral) results in somebody else being killed.
Jolee Bindo was a better example on neutrality (until he wasn't...).
I guess the thing is that it's not supposed to be about neutrality at all. Kreia is neutral according to the in game alignment thingy, but that's really more of an obsfucationary tool than anything. Her only goal is to make you capable of changing the galaxy in a big way, for good or ill, since as someone who is no longer attached to the Force directly you are less than anyone subject to its whims. Change of that magnitude can require you to play drastically different roles, wear many different masks. The beggar incident is, plain and simple, on rails because the writer felt he needed a way to demonstrate to you regardless of what you do how actions can have unintended consequence. Could it have been better done? Yes. But it has nothing to do with "all actions lead to sadness :<"
As for the Jedi Council, KOTOR 2 goes to no small lengths to declare that their teachings are flawed. The flaws of the teachers are passed on to the student, yadda yadda. They do more harm than good because they are working on faulty assumptions.
I still will have a problem with it because in this example, you're not even using your Jedi abilities. Hell, you're not even using your non-Jedi abilities. You're either giving somebody five spacebucks or you're telling them to go fuck themselves. And it's then used as the anvil against which Kreia beats you with her 'morality' hammer.
That's the point. It's the butterfly flapping its wings making a hurricane in china, not an asteroid hitting the earth causing earthquakes.
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DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
I still will have a problem with it because in this example, you're not even using your Jedi abilities. Hell, you're not even using your non-Jedi abilities. You're either giving somebody five spacebucks or you're telling them to go fuck themselves. And it's then used as the anvil against which Kreia beats you with her 'morality' hammer.
That's the point. It's the butterfly flapping its wings making a hurricane in china, not an asteroid hitting the earth causing earthquakes.
But let's be honest here, there isn't going to be a hurricane every time you give a hobo five bucks. Sometimes, he's simply going to use it for booze.
Also, since Kreia is a total lying fibbing dishonest lying liar, as has been well established, anything she says is crap. She can't even be honest about her name, much less Her True Intentions and World View. She was probably just bored and wanted to screw with you for kicks.
You'll all see that twist in the new restored ending.*
[tiny] *not really.[/tiny]
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MongerI got the ham stink.Dallas, TXRegistered Userregular
Also, since Kreia is a total lying fibbing dishonest lying liar, as has been well established, anything she says is crap. She can't even be honest about her name, much less Her True Intentions and World View. She was probably just bored and wanted to screw with you for kicks.
You'll all see that twist in the new restored ending.*
[tiny] *not really.[/tiny]
Actually she's bored and wants to screw with you because she's crotchety and old. She actually says so in the shreds of ending that are already there.
The lesson that no matter what you do, you breed something negative aside from something positive, or the other way around.
I'd say it was because you have no choice in the matter. You cannot avoid generating a 'negative' outcome with the beggar. Ever. And then you have to hear Kreia tell you that you should be mindful that your actions mean more than just the immediate result... Meanwhile, you still don't have the full story of your own Madalorian Wars actions even though you aren't an amnesiac...
It leaves the lesson a bit hollow when you're forced to make a choice that always, without fail, results in a negative outcome and then you have to be lectured about it by the woman who is using you for her own ends...
To be fair I believe it's beyond the scope of videogames in general to truly permit action and reaction on the scale Kreia is teaching you to perform over the course of the game.
Sure, sure. I've read the LP and I 'get' the general message she's giving. I understand that some things must be necessarily limited simply because it's a game. (I always chuckle whenever they mention, in a meta way, that you're playing a game.) But if her message is so important, why is the outcome always negative? I mean, if bad shit is going to result from whatever you chose to do, then why do anything at all?
And it's beyond a 'bad things can result from immediately good actions' thing. The Jedi, the Galactic Senate, they all try to do 'good' things and have, to this point, all ended up being bad. But if anything, it's a mixed message in the game when they tell you that Revan did bad things because it was for the greater good and G0-T0 wants you to do some underhanded things to provide for the greater good, but telling a beggar man to fuck off (and both responses to him are extreme good or bad, never neutral) results in somebody else being killed.
Jolee Bindo was a better example on neutrality (until he wasn't...).
I guess the thing is that it's not supposed to be about neutrality at all. Kreia is neutral according to the in game alignment thingy, but that's really more of an obsfucationary tool than anything. Her only goal is to make you capable of changing the galaxy in a big way, for good or ill, since as someone who is no longer attached to the Force directly you are less than anyone subject to its whims. Change of that magnitude can require you to play drastically different roles, wear many different masks. The beggar incident is, plain and simple, on rails because the writer felt he needed a way to demonstrate to you regardless of what you do how actions can have unintended consequence. Could it have been better done? Yes. But it has nothing to do with "all actions lead to sadness :<"
As for the Jedi Council, KOTOR 2 goes to no small lengths to declare that their teachings are flawed. The flaws of the teachers are passed on to the student, yadda yadda. They do more harm than good because they are working on faulty assumptions.
But that's the thing of the implementation. The whole game is Kreia beating you about the ears with 'stay in the middle, don't chose a side' stuff. The beggar pops up and you don't have that option, she gives you shit for it. The cave happens and then you do get the option...and she still, essentially, gives you shit for it.
Like the whole thing is: 'Actions have consequences. Because of your power it's sometimes best to not get involved. Now pick a side!' And all because you/the Exile did something she could not, and so she draws you back into all this mess when, apparently, you'd originally have preferred to just be. Without being a Jedi...
The entire game is dicking with the player's expectations of being a game. From the start all the way to the end. If it wasn't written so well otherwise, we'd probably be traveling into some real Kojima territory here...
Kreia is not about "don't choose a side". She's all about "choose the side that most furthers your personal goals".
What does she say when you agree to help both the mercenaries and the settlers on Dantooine?
Yes, you see Kreia wants you to be the chessmaster. Only problem is that is that...your character never really had any discernible goal in the first place other than for people to fuck off and leave him alone.
Kreia is not about "don't choose a side". She's all about "choose the side that most furthers your personal goals".
What does she say when you agree to help both the mercenaries and the settlers on Dantooine?
Yes, you see Kreia wants you to be the chessmaster. Only problem is that is that...your character never really had any discernible goal in the first place other than for people to fuck off and leave him alone.
This is a much more valid criticism.
Kreia's all "the galaxy rests in your hands now!" and the Exile is thinking "I just want to drink juma juice on Nar Shadaa until I win a bet with Atton and pass out".
Zetetic Elench on
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YggiDeeThe World Ends With You ShillRegistered Userregular
edited September 2009
Well, I'm playing KOTOR for the first time, I'm liking it. My scoundrel-turned-Jedi is the lightest lightside to ever jedi. I donate money to orphans and cuddle them in my spare time. I piss glitter and kittens.
But- I just met HK-47.
I don't know if I have the willpower to follow through.
Well, I'm playing KOTOR for the first time, I'm liking it. My scoundrel-turned-Jedi is the lightest lightside to ever jedi. I donate money to orphans and cuddle them in my spare time. I piss glitter and kittens.
But- I just met HK-47.
I don't know if I have the willpower to follow through.
HK-47 is the sole reason I regret not buying this game when it came out.
God I wish there was more with him.
Also, I discovered what everyone else probably has known for years, that god damn alot of Mass Effect is basically recycled KOTOR stuff.
It's been awhile since I played Knights of the Old Republic 2, but I do remember how I felt about Kreia. At least, I sort of remember, because I actually ignored her most of the time. The only image I have of her from that game is her going off on rants, philosophical or otherwise, and I came to not give a shit and just continued on with the game not paying her much attention.
I intend to play it again using the Restoration mod (is that bad of me?) once I beat the first game. I'm gong the final Star Map planet right now (the Sith training world). I'm trying to decide who I want with me, though. It's either Carth - because of his son side-quest - and Juhina, or Carth and Jolee Bindo.
Dashui on
Xbox Live, PSN & Origin: Vacorsis 3DS: 2638-0037-166
Honestly, if you didn't enjoy the conversations with Kreia, there's not too much point in playing KotOR 2. Not because that's all to like about it, but because the tone in those conversations permeates and informs the plotline of the whole game.
I think people focus on Kreia too much - I think the Exile's personal journey is one of the most masterfully told stories in gaming so far, frankly. But I'm not going to pretend you'll get much enjoyment out of it if you don't like philosophizing about adherence to the Jedi code and whatnot.
Honestly, if you didn't enjoy the conversations with Kreia, there's not too much point in playing KotOR 2. Not because that's all to like about it, but because the tone in those conversations permeates and informs the plotline of the whole game.
I think people focus on Kreia too much - I think the Exile's personal journey is one of the most masterfully told stories in gaming so far, frankly. But I'm not going to pretend you'll get much enjoyment out of it if you don't like philosophizing about adherence to the Jedi code and whatnot.
So if I don't listen to Kreia much there's not much point in playing the game, but I shouldn't focus on her too much? What?
Anyway, it's been such a long time since I last played it I hardly remember the game or her. I only remember that she ranted and criticized my character, the abrupt meeting of the supposedly main villain, and that crappy end planet that followed. Those and a few images of various locations are the only things I recall about the game and plot. Knights of the Old Republic 2 just didn't stick with me like the first did, but maybe I'll get a new opinion of it with another playthrough and with that mod.
But seriously, though, Carth and Juhani or Jolee for Korriban? I want to know who has the best lines for that planet between the two Jedi I have available to take with me. :P
Dashui on
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DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
edited September 2009
Jolee always has better lines than Juhani...everyone has better lines than Juhani.
But KOTOR never extemporized on the location of the enemies.
Mass Effect had quite a treatise on the enemies and where they are
Don't you dare, Khavall. If the ME thread has taught us anything, it's that this is a bad bad place to go. We're already walking on thin ice with the potential for Tower of Hanoi.
But KOTOR never extemporized on the location of the enemies.
Mass Effect had quite a treatise on the enemies and where they are
Don't you dare, Khavall. If the ME thread has taught us anything, it's that this is a bad bad place to go. We're already walking on thin ice with the potential for Tower of Hanoi.
Why does everyone complain about Tower of Hanoi puzzles? They are pretty easy.
But KOTOR never extemporized on the location of the enemies.
Mass Effect had quite a treatise on the enemies and where they are
Don't you dare, Khavall. If the ME thread has taught us anything, it's that this is a bad bad place to go. We're already walking on thin ice with the potential for Tower of Hanoi.
Why does everyone complain about Tower of Hanoi puzzles? They are pretty easy.
That is why. We can solve them in our heads in about 5 seconds and they're old as shit and everyone knows the solution and yet they still appear to do nothing significant at all and they're so incredibly old they need to go.
Because KoTOR 2 does not want to work on Vista for me (yeah, I tried the dll thing, but it just kept crashing), I can't play through the game and enjoy it again until some miracle comes along or I just give in and install Windows XP or something.
I hear people mentioning T3-M4 in here, but I can't say I ever took him with me on any of the planets in KoTOR 2. Any chance I could hear about some of this awesomeness since I can't experience it myself?
Honestly, if you didn't enjoy the conversations with Kreia, there's not too much point in playing KotOR 2. Not because that's all to like about it, but because the tone in those conversations permeates and informs the plotline of the whole game.
I think people focus on Kreia too much - I think the Exile's personal journey is one of the most masterfully told stories in gaming so far, frankly. But I'm not going to pretend you'll get much enjoyment out of it if you don't like philosophizing about adherence to the Jedi code and whatnot.
So if I don't listen to Kreia much there's not much point in playing the game, but I shouldn't focus on her too much? What?
That's not what I said. I said if you didn't enjoy conversations with Kreia, well, the whole goddamn story is like that, so your chances of being delighted by witty repartee about the true nature of the Force are quite slim.
And what else are you going into the game for? I mean, the actual game part of the game is unpolished, tedious and ludicrously easy. All of which could have been remedied in time, but yeah - not great.
Anyway, it's been such a long time since I last played it I hardly remember the game or her. I only remember that she ranted and criticized my character, the abrupt meeting of the supposedly main villain, and that crappy end planet that followed. Those and a few images of various locations are the only things I recall about the game and plot. Knights of the Old Republic 2 just didn't stick with me like the first did, but maybe I'll get a new opinion of it with another playthrough and with that mod.
The biggest problem with KotOr 2, really, is that it pretends to be a traditional epic narrative. It's not. The abrupt meeting of the villain and his status as "supposedly main" is pretty deliberate, the endgame taken into account and all.
It's just not satisfying if you're looking for a big showdown with a brooding, omnipresent villain rather than slaughtering a cynical old woman.
I mean, she can make lightsabers float around her head, but, you know.
There is subtle shit going on in the background of KotOR 2 that you mostly only notice on multiple playthroughs, like the relationship between Revan and the Exile or exactly what Atris got up to in your absence, but it's really only going to come off as cool if you enjoy that kind of thing.
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MongerI got the ham stink.Dallas, TXRegistered Userregular
But KOTOR never extemporized on the location of the enemies.
Mass Effect had quite a treatise on the enemies and where they are
Don't you dare, Khavall. If the ME thread has taught us anything, it's that this is a bad bad place to go. We're already walking on thin ice with the potential for Tower of Hanoi.
Why does everyone complain about Tower of Hanoi puzzles? They are pretty easy.
That is why. We can solve them in our heads in about 5 seconds and they're old as shit and everyone knows the solution and yet they still appear to do nothing significant at all and they're so incredibly old they need to go.
What makes T3 so awesome in 2 is that he's a total badass... with a beautiful relationship with HK-47 where they're basically Tim Burtons C-3P0 and R2-D2, and the writing manages to make it entirely clear what he's saying all the time without having him able to actually use words.
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Sure, sure. I've read the LP and I 'get' the general message she's giving. I understand that some things must be necessarily limited simply because it's a game. (I always chuckle whenever they mention, in a meta way, that you're playing a game.) But if her message is so important, why is the outcome always negative? I mean, if bad shit is going to result from whatever you chose to do, then why do anything at all?
And it's beyond a 'bad things can result from immediately good actions' thing. The Jedi, the Galactic Senate, they all try to do 'good' things and have, to this point, all ended up being bad. But if anything, it's a mixed message in the game when they tell you that Revan did bad things because it was for the greater good and G0-T0 wants you to do some underhanded things to provide for the greater good, but telling a beggar man to fuck off (and both responses to him are extreme good or bad, never neutral) results in somebody else being killed.
Jolee Bindo was a better example on neutrality (until he wasn't...).
The Sith do ridiculously evil things for power the Jedi do ...noble, not good, things to maintain order. Revan did bad things for the purpose of saving life not preserving just hte order as Jedis decree it. The beggar thing shows you that if you do the easiest, most obvious good thing or the flat out bad/evil thing without thinking about it or planning ahead it can go to pot very easily so sometimes the best thing to do is not use your considerable power to influence things one way or another.
Sure a Jedi can go beat up those slavers but the slaves might then seek out revenge and wipe out lots of innocents. The Kreia path would be to consider what to do and make the best decision based not on maintaining the Jedis interpretation of order or increasing ones own power.
Even if your initial intention was exactly what Kreia wanted, to not get involved with the beggar (beyond not being able to avoid him...), a kind of 'bootstraps' way of thinking, you're still stuck acting the ass and the result is always the same. And it isn't like you haven't already had an earful from her about not always jumping into a situation to resolve it.
But then, you are playing a game. At that point, it's like the devs are mocking the player for actually playing it like it was a game and not taking it seriously as some kind of glorious jump-off point to a greater philosophy and way of life. So you trigger an unavoidable encounter with limited choices and you're told you're a jackass either way... It muddies Kreia and her sub-plot just a tad.
I got to the end of his story where you have to re-connect with his son. So I go to Korriban, find the son, talk to him a bit and he gets angry and I have to kill him. So I load up the previous save, talk to him again, this time he doesn't kill me, he says he needs proof of the Sith's evil nature.
I wander around looking, don't find anything, get bored and continue with the main plot, I'll get back to him later. Anyway, I pass all the tests, end up fighting both the Sith leader and the his girl lieutenant. Problem solved right? Um, no.
As I head back to the Sith temple, every Sith wants to fight me, so i have to kill them all, including Carth's son.
I looked up what I 'should' have done, and apparently the evidence of the Sith's evil is in the bad guys room, which can only be accessed if he's alive and you unlock the door or something.
Shit like that pisses me off, now I can't complete the game the way I wanted...
Edit: Holy Shit I am stupid. It is on Steam....
I guess the thing is that it's not supposed to be about neutrality at all. Kreia is neutral according to the in game alignment thingy, but that's really more of an obsfucationary tool than anything. Her only goal is to make you capable of changing the galaxy in a big way, for good or ill, since as someone who is no longer attached to the Force directly you are less than anyone subject to its whims. Change of that magnitude can require you to play drastically different roles, wear many different masks. The beggar incident is, plain and simple, on rails because the writer felt he needed a way to demonstrate to you regardless of what you do how actions can have unintended consequence. Could it have been better done? Yes. But it has nothing to do with "all actions lead to sadness :<"
As for the Jedi Council, KOTOR 2 goes to no small lengths to declare that their teachings are flawed. The flaws of the teachers are passed on to the student, yadda yadda. They do more harm than good because they are working on faulty assumptions.
White FC: 0819 3350 1787
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That's the point. It's the butterfly flapping its wings making a hurricane in china, not an asteroid hitting the earth causing earthquakes.
But let's be honest here, there isn't going to be a hurricane every time you give a hobo five bucks. Sometimes, he's simply going to use it for booze.
You'll all see that twist in the new restored ending.*
[tiny] *not really.[/tiny]
Then again,
Anyway, point is, she's your mother and, as such, exists solely to ruin your life and destroy your self-esteem. But only cause she loves you.
Bitch.
All right, people. It is not a gerbil. It is not a hamster. It is not a guinea pig. It is a death rabbit. Death. Rabbit. Say it with me, now.
But that's the thing of the implementation. The whole game is Kreia beating you about the ears with 'stay in the middle, don't chose a side' stuff. The beggar pops up and you don't have that option, she gives you shit for it. The cave happens and then you do get the option...and she still, essentially, gives you shit for it.
Like the whole thing is: 'Actions have consequences. Because of your power it's sometimes best to not get involved. Now pick a side!' And all because you/the Exile did something she could not, and so she draws you back into all this mess when, apparently, you'd originally have preferred to just be. Without being a Jedi...
The entire game is dicking with the player's expectations of being a game. From the start all the way to the end. If it wasn't written so well otherwise, we'd probably be traveling into some real Kojima territory here...
Kreia is not about "don't choose a side". She's all about "choose the side that most furthers your personal goals".
What does she say when you agree to help both the mercenaries and the settlers on Dantooine?
Yes, you see Kreia wants you to be the chessmaster. Only problem is that is that...your character never really had any discernible goal in the first place other than for people to fuck off and leave him alone.
This is a much more valid criticism.
Kreia's all "the galaxy rests in your hands now!" and the Exile is thinking "I just want to drink juma juice on Nar Shadaa until I win a bet with Atton and pass out".
But- I just met HK-47.
I don't know if I have the willpower to follow through.
HK-47 is the sole reason I regret not buying this game when it came out.
God I wish there was more with him.
Also, I discovered what everyone else probably has known for years, that god damn alot of Mass Effect is basically recycled KOTOR stuff.
I intend to play it again using the Restoration mod (is that bad of me?) once I beat the first game. I'm gong the final Star Map planet right now (the Sith training world). I'm trying to decide who I want with me, though. It's either Carth - because of his son side-quest - and Juhina, or Carth and Jolee Bindo.
I think people focus on Kreia too much - I think the Exile's personal journey is one of the most masterfully told stories in gaming so far, frankly. But I'm not going to pretend you'll get much enjoyment out of it if you don't like philosophizing about adherence to the Jedi code and whatnot.
Enlist in Star Citizen! Citizenship must be earned!
So if I don't listen to Kreia much there's not much point in playing the game, but I shouldn't focus on her too much? What?
Anyway, it's been such a long time since I last played it I hardly remember the game or her. I only remember that she ranted and criticized my character, the abrupt meeting of the supposedly main villain, and that crappy end planet that followed. Those and a few images of various locations are the only things I recall about the game and plot. Knights of the Old Republic 2 just didn't stick with me like the first did, but maybe I'll get a new opinion of it with another playthrough and with that mod.
But seriously, though, Carth and Juhani or Jolee for Korriban? I want to know who has the best lines for that planet between the two Jedi I have available to take with me. :P
T3-M4 has better lines than Juhani.
T3 is written so beautifully in Kotor 2
I don't think I've ever used Juhani for anything because fuck that chick. Seriously.
And T3 is a pimp in the second game.
All right, people. It is not a gerbil. It is not a hamster. It is not a guinea pig. It is a death rabbit. Death. Rabbit. Say it with me, now.
Juhani: "I will destroy you!"
ME goons: "I will destroy you!"
But KOTOR never extemporized on the location of the enemies.
Mass Effect had quite a treatise on the enemies and where they are
All right, people. It is not a gerbil. It is not a hamster. It is not a guinea pig. It is a death rabbit. Death. Rabbit. Say it with me, now.
Why does everyone complain about Tower of Hanoi puzzles? They are pretty easy.
It has three cores. One is overheated. Move the heat sinks to another core to cool it down.
That is why. We can solve them in our heads in about 5 seconds and they're old as shit and everyone knows the solution and yet they still appear to do nothing significant at all and they're so incredibly old they need to go.
I hear people mentioning T3-M4 in here, but I can't say I ever took him with me on any of the planets in KoTOR 2. Any chance I could hear about some of this awesomeness since I can't experience it myself?
That's not what I said. I said if you didn't enjoy conversations with Kreia, well, the whole goddamn story is like that, so your chances of being delighted by witty repartee about the true nature of the Force are quite slim.
And what else are you going into the game for? I mean, the actual game part of the game is unpolished, tedious and ludicrously easy. All of which could have been remedied in time, but yeah - not great.
The biggest problem with KotOr 2, really, is that it pretends to be a traditional epic narrative. It's not. The abrupt meeting of the villain and his status as "supposedly main" is pretty deliberate, the endgame taken into account and all.
I mean, she can make lightsabers float around her head, but, you know.
There is subtle shit going on in the background of KotOR 2 that you mostly only notice on multiple playthroughs, like the relationship between Revan and the Exile or exactly what Atris got up to in your absence, but it's really only going to come off as cool if you enjoy that kind of thing.
It's the next logical step.
All right, people. It is not a gerbil. It is not a hamster. It is not a guinea pig. It is a death rabbit. Death. Rabbit. Say it with me, now.
The droid warehouse is the precise moment when you realise just how delightfully badass T3 is.
T3 will kill any fucker for fun if he thinks he can get away with it.