[Indy / New Wave RPGs] D&D4 ... sure ... but what about ...

Hasimir

Hi I'm new here, so: hUllo ta all!
Please start pardoning my english right away, I'm italian, so expect grammatical turmoil and syntactical horror :twisted:

Introductions made, I had a LOT of fun reading the RPG-related strips, they're amazing AND so bittersweetly true
They are an awesome satire of the rpg world

But then made me wonder ... has anyone here tried less "traditional" rpgs?
I'm going to make some names, then maybe someone could tell me if he/she has played them, or never heard from them, or if (in his/her opinion) they suck or whatever

Let's see...

Anima Prime is still in beta, but it's fully functional, it's free to download, and it's a BLAST to play.
The game was developed using Final Fantasy 7 and Avatar as inspirational models ... I played it using the basic setting, with a more Steampunk and Dark vibe ... but I want to hack it to work in the Shadowrun setting

Another great game (but it's not free) is Agon ... just think "300 the RPG" 8-)
It's meant to be played as a veeery competitive game, where the GM is supposed to be "The Antagonist" and try to BEAT the players without holding back.
And it works
I know of some hacks, some even suggested in the rulebook, to play in modern or sci-fi settings instead of mythological Greece.

Geiger Counter is a very fun pick-up game meant to allow the players to produce and experience (as a spectator in the first row of seats) a survival-horror movie.
And it's free.
When I played it we ended up with the WORST zobie-invasion movie ever conceived by human mind ... and it also was a storm of fun :P
It can be used for very crazy movies, or for very serious movies ... it all depends on how the players agree to play ... a thing that is dealt with at the very beginning of the game-preparation, so it's not a problem or something one should worry about.

...

There are A LOT of other games, each one VERY different from one another ...

Some of them are meant to produce very strong reactions in the PLAYER.
Like Dogs in the Vineyard, that makes you question YOUR morality through the adventures of your Character.

Or like My Life With Master, that makes you play an Igor-like servitor to an evil Master, and makes YOU hate that Master (played by the GM) and builds on it untill you finally tip-over and manage to confront him in a final catarsys where the Master will be killed and every servitor will face his own epilogue.

I found myself addicted to this kind of emotionally-challenging games ( there is a LARP game that is effing SCARY ... it's called Doubt , I played it twice and it damned shocked me each time! ).

... but there are also lighter, less mind-warping games that are great too!

The games I mentioned in the first part of this post are all designs of the game-challange/adventure kind.
But for example I had a great time playing (drunk with limoncello) a session of Great Ork Gods ... it was stupidly hilarious!
(the baseline is: you're green, you're ugly and the gods hate you! )

And how not to mention Prime Time Adventures?
A game where you produce a TeeVee Series and then proceed to play each episode with the GM as the Director and the players as the Main Characters.
Actually, you can play any story you like.
While the point of Geiger Counter is the experience of producing a survival-horror movie and then play/watch it ... the point of Prime Time Adventures is to produce and live an engaging story ... so the TV-Series is just a theme, it's just color ... so you can use it for a lot of things, actually :winky:

. . .

Just one big important caveat!
If you are not familiar with this kind of games (here in Italy we call them "New Wave", but in America they are called anything from "Indy" to "Hippy" to just "Games") you should know some things...

They are meant to be played as... how to explain it... boardgames?
You pick up a boardgame (let's say Clue or Risk) and you read the rules and you STICK to the rules, with no exceptions.
And you know that if you don't follow the rules, or you don't apply ALL the rules, you are playing this game WRONG, and it may very easily not work as intended.

And the most important rules are actually not those that say "the sword does 1d6 points of damage" but are those that explain what the players are supposed to do, what the GM is supposed to do (if present), etc ...
These games actually explain how you are supposed to play them ... which may come as now to anyone used to more traditional rpgs

It seems stupid, but many seasoned roleplayers tend to play games using their accumulated experience and "wisdom" INSTEAD of following the rules.
Not always, not everyone ... just ... most of the people, most of the time :P

And it's fine, actually ... but ... just ... Don't do it with THESE games!
They are designed to work in a specific way, and if you stray from the rules you WILL basically "break" the game.
You are more than entitled to not like one game, and the correct answer here is "Throw it away and try different one! " ... no pity for things you don't like! :twisted:

Also, if you can, try to PLAY them and not just READ them.
I'm talking from direct experience ... while reading some of these texts I ended up thinking something along the lines of "This is madness, and it's not even Sparta! This is a sure recipe for disaster, the players will wreak havoc on this game, it'll never work!!!".
Just have faith in the rules as written, you'll be surprised

. . .

Aaand that's it.
I hope I didn't sound too much like a preacher bringing forth the True Word of Whatever ... I'm just an enthusiastic player trying to spread his favorite brand of the RPG-hobby ^_^
I hope it doesn't turn out as in this webcomic though

Pygmalion

I think once you've pulled the "syntactical horror" card, you're fluent.

I like me an indy RPG from time to time, but they're better round a tabletop. On the internets, big and easy is good. Good suggestions though, I'll look them up.

Powerpuppies

I houserule my boardgames. Also, what Pyg said. Finally, you are awesome for linking to Daisyowl.

Rainfall

Before I get started, you should put [Indie RPGs] into the title or something so that more people will be lured in here to the sweet, sweet siren call of not DnD.

I haven't heard of most of those games, which after looking around makes sense, some of them are pretty indie. However, I've played Prime Time Adventures, and I can honestly say it's pretty damn fun. Dogs in the Vineyard... I've got problems with it. Never been my type of game.

Now, my problem with a lot of these RPGs is simply the fact that they're so very focused on playing one type of game and doing one type of thing. Sure, it's what they're designed to do, but as a player or a GM, I tend to choke when faced with limitations. I want to do something that I want to do, not what the game tells me to do. So normally I just step away until I find something large-scale enough to run whatever I feel like running.

My other big problem is the fact that a lot of them are extremely fucking pretentious. You're only supposed to play them in the 'one true way' and if you do it any other way you're 'breaking the game' and they try to tell you how to behave, which is the biggest turn-off in an RPG to me.

But hey, a lot of them are better than DnD, under certain specific circumstances. They are just, in a lot of ways, not for me. Now, I'll get back to my shelf of small-time games that managed to get themselves published. Desolation, my darling postapoc fantasy, how I love thee.

Pygmalion

Oh, and I really like Spirit of the Century, but that just continues my point of it being better around a tabletop.

Megazver

I am pretty SURE... you don't... USE so many ellipses in Italian! ^-^

A thread for the Indies is a good idea, though.

Mike Danger

I have wanted to try some of the games from this fellow for some time but I just keep putting off spending the money. Inspectres looks like a lot of fun.

Hasimir

As you can see I edited the title, thanks for the suggestion
Well, let's try answering to some stuff...

@ Megazver
That's just the way I write, trying to convey tone of voice and expressiveness through the (mis)use and (ab)use of smiley faces, capitalized words and other special effects.
I write the same way in Italian too ... it's a tragedy, but it's too late for me, I can't be saved anymore ... I hope it's not annoying to read ^___^

PS: I assume everyone noticed that I write a LOT ... sorry for that, too :P

...

@ everyone
I'm going to use the term "New Wave" (shortened to NW) to refer to these games.
It comes more naturally to me, and it describes them better.
"Indy" games is established as common jargon, but has no meaning ... many games are producen indipendently but don't follow the kind of game-design principles that I refer to when I talk here, like REIGN (by Greg Stolze) that is a 100% independent production, but is also 100% traditional design.
(and a very beautiful game too! 8-) )
Just to avoid confusion

...

I like me an indy RPG from time to time, but they're better round a tabletop

I thought Pen & Paper rpgs were meant to be played by default around a table (or something) ... with web-based gaming as a veeery secondary field (play by forum/chat/etc).
Or did I miss what you meant?

Anyway, yes... lots of people I know report that New Wave games work much better when you can directly speak to your fellow players, in person, possibly around a table.
But I hear good things about playing-by-forum with Spione ... I haven't played it first hand, but people tell me it has something that makes it work very well even on a forum based game

Dogs in the Vineyard... I've got problems with it. Never been my type of game.

I feel you here.
It's a great game but I simply hate the setting, and though the game "worked his magic" with me I really prefer other games.
It happens ... it's a good thing there are so many and so different games

Now, my problem with a lot of these RPGs is simply the fact that they're so very focused on playing one type of game and doing one type of thing.

Thats is a common misconception
SOME of these games are designed to provide a very specific experience, through very specific means, in a very specific package.

Dogs is one of those.
Same goes for My Life With Master ... you can "hack" it to change the setting and the color (My Life With Sauron, My Life With Darth Vader, My Life With Old Pedant Jedi Master, My Life With the Kidnapper, and so on, and so forth) ... but the things you can do with the game are pretty limited ... in a way.
Also, many of these "focused" designs are meant to deliver a very intense experience, so they last only a few sessions.
It makes sense, and it works ... but what if I want a long-term game, a more open-ended game?

Well, there are OTHER games too, games that are still designed to produce a specific game experience, but are NOT limited in the way you intend.

D&D4 has adopted a lot of tips from the New Wave designs ... it is not fully blossomed (so to speak) but it's a huge step in that direction.
The new rules for skill-challages published after the initial book release are yet another step in that direction

Something else I may suggest is the Solar System.
It's the generic (meaning setting-less) and revised version of the rules-set used in the fantasy game "The Shadow of Yesterday".
Shadow is now free and can be fully read from its official Creative Commons wiki, HERE.
The Solar System is not free but let me tell you that it deserves your money ... it explains things in a much better way then the original game, it improves some rules and greatly helps whoever wants to adapt the rules to whatever setting may be desired.

The "limits" of this games are the same kind of limits you find in D&D ... like "you are a HERO, you are going to rock this world with your adventures!" ... so you are limited because you're not supposed to play a skill-less, ambition-less, luck-less sod with a boring life ... I think I kinda like this limit ^_^
Other than that, you are free.
You are even more free than in D&D4 actually, because Solar System supports wave-play (in short, PCs are not bound to act as a group, or as friends ... they can go at each other's throats, or walk totally different paths and never meet ... and STILL the game will work and be fun and engaging for everyone at the table ... and the game manages this kind of behavior in a way that is NOT damaging to real-life friendships and relationships, no grief-play and what not).

There is a very cool game called Storming the Wizard's Tower.
It's still an alpha but it already works well ... I just think it requires too many dices, but other than that it's a ton of fun
Short descriprion? ...it's D&D ...I won't say "D&D done better" because that would be presumptuous and threads on the sacred land of Personal Taste ... but it can be an interesting alternative

The above mentioned Anima Prime is very good in the mid-long range, and once again has the same "limits" as your average adventure game.

Mouse Guard is a work of beauty, and uses pretty crunchy rules, so even those who appreciate more rule-intense games can be happy.
Speaking of which ... the (almost) same ruleset is used also in a sci-fi game called Burning Empires and it all actually comes from the fantasy game Burning Wheel.

...

And these are just the games that are coming to my mind right in this moment and that I know enough to feel comfortable speaking about (just a little bit ^_^)

Last thing I want to adress, but a very important one:

My other big problem is the fact that a lot of them are extremely fucking pretentious. You're only supposed to play them in the 'one true way' and if you do it any other way you're 'breaking the game' and they try to tell you how to behave, which is the biggest turn-off in an RPG to me.

That's an understandable feeling ... considering that it's since 1970 that rpg books go out of their way to tell the reader "I don't matter, you do whatever you want to do".

But ... I bet you don't feel patronized when you read the rules of a boardgame ... or when you are told the rules for beach-volley, that are different from those of regular volleyball, that are different from those of soccer.
They are all games with a ball (all rpgs) but each one of them is different ... and a GOOD teacher (rule-book) has to clearly explain how the game works, what everyone is supposed to do, and how.

I'm not gonna get into game-design theory here ... it's a big no no in this kind of discussion.
I'm just questioning the idea that "no one should tell me how to play" ... actually, the author SHOULD.
Then you do whatever you please with your game and your friends and your free time.
But one should be able to KNOW if he is using a tool in the right way (and games are just that, tools to achieve a specific brand of fun).

and about this...

I houserule my boardgames

I bet you play them as they are ... as they are meant to be played.
You experience them this way and THEN you decide if you like the game as it is, or not ... and THEN you decide if you would be better off trying a whole new game, or modifying your current game.
And if you do mod your game, you agree upon every modification with your fellow players beforehand ... "this is a new game, this is Risk-by-Me and it works in THIS way, are we all ok with this?"

That's totally fine.

But for some reason most people don't do this with RPGs.
Rainfall just expressed concern because some games are "extremely fucking pretentious" ... why? ... because they pretend to tell him how to play a game he never played before.
No one assumes that all boardgames work more or less in the same way, right?
No one assumes that all sports with a ball work more or less in the same way, right?
Then why should all RPGs work more or less in the same way ... so much that it is pretentious to explain to the reader "how to play" ???

Most traditional rpgs actually play-out in the same way even if you do follow the rules, the difference between rollind 1d20 or 3d6 or 1d100 and cross-referencing a list of effects is at best a matter of aestetics and affects the game quite marginally ... in the end it's just number-juggling.
And that's the whole point.
New Wave games ALSO alter other kinds of rules, the rules of what really happens at the table, between people ... so, if you follow THOSE rules you end up playing something you never played before (and then you may like it or not).

You still play the role of a fictional character in a fictional world, your character will still kill orks and seek forbidden knowledge and hit on the bartender's daughter :winky: ... but HOW you do it produces a different experience for YOU.

Hasimir

I hope double-posting is not a problem, otherwise I'll edit this post into the previous ... just let me know

Mike Danger wrote: »

I have wanted to try some of the games from this fellow for some time but I just keep putting off spending the money. Inspectres looks like a lot of fun.

Lacuna is more an exercise in style than a playable game.
It has AWESOME ideas, but it's also quite full of holes ... still playable, more or less

I have heard a lot of good things about InSpectres.
Another interesting approach to supernatural investigation is the GumShoe ... a game-system used for some nice games:
- Esoterrorists
- Fear Itself
- Trail of Cthulhu

and for less supernatural but more noir/hardboiled investigations there is Dirty Secrets.

InSpecters and Dirty Secrets are fairly easy to just pick-up and play ... the GumShoe stuff requires a more traditional preparation, but help you with a lot of things, so they should all be fairly easy to set up and present to your friends.

Enjoy

Christian Griffen

Mike Danger wrote: »

I have wanted to try some of the games from this fellow for some time but I just keep putting off spending the money. Inspectres looks like a lot of fun.

Inspectres is, indeed, a lot of fun. It's exactly what I wanted from a Ghostbusters-like game. At the same time, it's very player-empowering: when players succeed at their rolls, they get to narrate all kinds of stuff, even plot twists or new characters, into the fiction, which would be way out in traditional games. Most of the time, the GM doesn't even prepare an explanation or background for the scenario; it just develops in play, through the collaboration of everyone at the table.

It's just designed with comical fun from the beginning. For example, when creating gear, you say what you're aiming for and the dice tell you whether you get good gear or total crap. For example, I wanted magical books as a research resource. So we rolled, and because the dice were low, the GM told me that all I got was a xeroxed copy of an Alister Crowley book

- Christian

Mike Danger

Christian Griffen wrote: »

For example, when creating gear, you say what you're aiming for and the dice tell you whether you get good gear or total crap. For example, I wanted magical books as a research resource. So we rolled, and because the dice were low, the GM told me that all I got was a xeroxed copy of an Alister Crowley book

- Christian

Holy crap, I need to play this.

Hasimir

Christian Griffen wrote: »

it's very player-empowering: when players succeed at their rolls, they get to narrate all kinds of stuff, even plot twists or new characters, into the fiction, which would be way out in traditional games. Most of the time, the GM doesn't even prepare an explanation or background for the scenario; it just develops in play, through the collaboration of everyone at the table.

Almost ALL of the aforementioned (is that a correct word? :P ) games work in this way ... I mean, they are very Player-empowering and help the GM to play and have fun along with everyone else, instead of working and performing for them (something that may be satisfactory, yes, but for someone it may not be worth the hassle ... or feasible at all due to availability of free time).

But there is one important thing to say, because too often people get this wrong:
this Player-empowering thing does NOT mean that players can say whatever they want, dish out crappy ideas and thrive in general chaos and anarchy ... and it doesn't mean that the GM is useless, handcuffed or diminished in any way.

There ARE rules and roles and a fictional reality that follows its own realism and coherence, just like in traditional games ... and all this things assure that the game goes on as intended, and that it is fun for everyone (even the shy and not-so-talkative and not-so-exuberant players) and that no-one "breaks" the game ... all of that because it works in a way that is impervious to things like power-gamers, rule-lawyers, crappy players/GMs, etc.

And if something goes wrong, if someone is not acting in a healthy way for the game ... well it's very easy to spot the problem and address it.
Because you are not telling to someone "You are playing wrong" (which is awful in Traditional games because it implies that the person is unskilled, unable to play in general and all his past experiences are worthless/flawed/wrong) ... no ... you can say "You are playing wrong" because IN THIS ONE GAME you are somehow not following the rules, it's not something shameful, it's just an error in (I assume) good faith that can be easily corrected

Well... that's assuming the game is done well and works properly.
New Wave designs are just that ... designs ... there's no magic to it

Also, all of this can be accomplished in Traditional gaming too ... the difference being that the Traditional "game/rule-set" doesn't help a bit ... this kind of stuff is 100% left in the hands of the people at the table:
- if THEY work then the game works too and it's fun for everyone
- otherwise, well, we all know Dork Tower and Knights of the Dinner Table ... and some Penny Arcade strips too, obviously
Those satirical ideas have to come from somewhere, don't they?

So if one is happy with his traditional gaming habits, that's awesome ... but trying something different can always be interesting ^_^

And instead, if one is somehow not fully happy ... changing habits may be the answer to solve some problems ... eventually ... hopefully ... maybe

Super Namicchi

heh, rainfall is a woman

Hasimir

ArcanisTheImpotent wrote: »

heh, rainfall is a woman

Woops ... sorry :P