The new forums will be named Coin Return (based on the most recent vote)! You can check on the status and timeline of the transition to the new forums here.
The Guiding Principles and New Rules document is now in effect.
Blood Bowl Serials controversy!
LewieP
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
So, some game called blood bowl came out recently. The PC versions costs £39.99 as a digital download direct from the publisher, and there isn't a demo.
Slightly dodgy foreign site G2play has retail serials for it for sale for about £14. The idea being that you buy a serial from them, grab an ISO of the retail release, and then have a legitimate licensed version installed on your computer. Dev gets paid, you get the game.
However, the publisher seems to be unhappy about this, and have said that they intend to blacklist any serials that have been bought this way. I believe that the serials that G2play sell are sourced from countries that sell games for a lot cheaper. They bulk buy retail versions of games, gut them, and just sell the serial number. Grey market for sure, but pretty far removed from piracy. I have no idea if it is legal or not.
All the information I have on it is here, including the publishers official response.
Slightly dodgy foreign site G2play has retail serials for it for sale for about £14. The idea being that you buy a serial from them, grab an ISO of the retail release, and then have a legitimate licensed version installed on your computer. Dev gets paid, you get the game.
However, the publisher seems to be unhappy about this, and have said that they intend to blacklist any serials that have been bought this way. I believe that the serials that G2play sell are sourced from countries that sell games for a lot cheaper. They bulk buy retail versions of games, gut them, and just sell the serial number. Grey market for sure, but pretty far removed from piracy. I have no idea if it is legal or not.
All the information I have on it is here, including the publishers official response.
LewieP on
0
Posts
But also definitely a violation of the EULA. Which gives them the right to ban the serials.
The company fully within their rights to ban them.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
I don't actually think that would work would it?
I don't really know for certain how serial numbers work, but I think they wouldn't be able to generate serials which would be accept for online play and such.
They find the algorithm used for a specific game and use those keys to access the game.
Diablo II/WCIII had this issue a lot. Since they were totally random (within the confines of the algorithm), occasionally the key generated would be a legitimate key, often owned by someone else; but gave the thief access to the account.
It's not like a company has each and every key specifically tracked. It's just a set algorithm to generate a key that is in line with whatever they use to authenticate it for that game and voila. Game.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
I mean, it's a dick move on G2play's part either way, I'm just curious of the specifics.
I can't imagine this is legal or that these guys are licensed distributors.
If they are buying retail copies in bulk and then selling the serial numbers off the back of the box, that is exactly piracy. They're taking a purchased copy of the game then reselling it at a profit without giving the developer or publisher a cut.
Actually they do. There's an algorithm f(x) that generates an "accepted key" to the installer/offline authentication part of the game. The company runs f(x) a bunch of times for each batch of games shipped out, and those keys get dumped in a database of valid keys.
Now, the pirates eventually figure out f(x). If the company and the pirates pick the same value of x, they get the same key, and hey presto, a valid online key. It's rare, because the range of X is usually 2^64 or something, but rare =/= impossible.
Can trade TF2 items or whatever else you're interested in. PM me.
Right, but that's not quite the same thing as some dude having a book with all the published keys laid out.
Also the pool of keys is generally going to be a lot larger than the number of games actually sold/printed in the initial run.
My point was that within the confines of the algorithm used, there are a lot of potential keys that can be produced, and that's where key generators come in. This isn't new or secret or anything.
EDIT: My main point is really, that this site clearly didn't acquire the keys legitimately or there would be no fuss. It's not like they had a deal with the publisher and then the devs decided to be assholes and ban every key not bought in a retail box. These guys got them either through a generator or through some other means that were likely not legal, or at best, highly dubious. I'm not sure what the controversy here really is. I mean, yeah, people paid and got screwed; but I don't know what people expected from a site that says "pay less than half the price to get a key and then you have to download the iso from some shady place on the internet". What else did they think was happening?
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
This has all happened before, its not new news. Its a teeth cutting experience for companies new to digital distribution.
Yes, it is their fault for charging us more just because they can. You can bet for certain that they will import the materials for the packaging from the cheapest international supplier, and imo it is hypocritical to prevent their customers from doing the same with their game.
Surely it isn't piracy because the publisher are getting paid, just not the amount they wish they were.
EDIT: A brief interweb search shows that Valve has already had issues with this company selling illegitimate copies of games for Steam. Considering they are their own "publisher" in this sense, that more or less tells me that it's not a legitimate way of getting game keys. I don't think there's a Valve Singapore selling them keys and then the US valve saying "nuh uh!".
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
Limiting keys to a certain region seems to make the most sense.
Well, its assuming that its true that G2Play purchased retail copies in bulk. If that is the case, then the publisher was paid. It would also be true that it is not "exactly piracy," or even "sorta piracy," but rather not piracy at all.
Still, I think its just as likely that these keys weren't obtained legally.
Hang on a second, why one earth would that be for the best.
That is basically equivalent to having a shop, and charging people different prices depending on how smartly they are dressed. It's certainly bad for consumers, and plain old greedy.
And yes, I agree, the whole linchpin of this issue is whether or not the serials were legitimately acquired in the first place.
actually, I know that they're not! (or at least, not as much as they should be)
So. They are not licensed distributors. They are buying retail versions marked for certain countries at prices designed to allow the people who live there to be able to afford them at all, taking the serials out of the boxes, and then selling them on the internet.
It's definitely a violation of the EULA, and it's almost certainly a violation of copyright law. They're taking advantage of regional price differences to make a profit off someone else's product, and the publisher is perfectly at rights to ban the serial numbers they find to have been used this way.
While it may be a legally gray area depending on whatever the local law is regarding copyrights, it's ethically pretty clear; they're taking advantage of a deal provided by the publisher to earn a few bucks for themselves. This is not you getting sick of the game and selling it used to a friend. This is a bunch of people getting together expressly to make a few bucks dancing around regional pricing and copyright law.
Publishers are forced to sell so cheap in certain countries because the economy is so different between South East Asia and the Americas\Europe. Publishers should set be able to set the price of their games to match the local economy, not the lowest common denominator.
Ask an Australian.
oh no he di'int
Can trade TF2 items or whatever else you're interested in. PM me.
I agree, if they are going to sell the game at different prices around the world, I should be allowed to buy it at this price and play it.
Shouldn't consumers be able to buy stuff anywhere they want then?
Companies know they can't charge the normal $50US in China for games, no one would buy them, especially not when the market here is flooded with Free2Play games of all sorts. So they lower the price down in a certain market to an acceptable level where they can still make some profit, generally about 70RMB in the software stores.
If a company can buy these heavily discounted CDkeys, then sell them to the richer countries for a 50% increase ($10 to $15) they will of course piss off all the stores and retailers in those countries who can't make a living on $15 or $10 games. Try buying two meals of food for a family of three in the US for $1.25.
Region locking keys is the only way to support markets with out destroying others. If you have a better idea STEAM would love to hear from you.
That's more or less the case now, though not as extreme.
Most console games are region locked to prevent cross region selling, allowing differing prices around the world. Some PC games have their serial codes region specific, so even if you buy the game in the US, when you log on to play online you'll only have access to servers in Korea or whatever.
However, while I don't personally think it's a terribly good idea to do so as a customer, it's not wrong to buy a game in another country for cheaper. But the means by which you typically have to go to play said game domestically aren't always legitimate.
Having said that, there's still a difference between buying a legitimate game and not, no matter where you're buying it from. Yes, piracy is more prevalent in various Asian countries, but that doesn't mean that all games sold there are pirated copies or whatever.
I do think though that in a situation where you're paying $10 for a game that retails for $50, getting a key, no disk, no nothing, you have to realize that it's highly likely that it's not on the level, no matter where the company you're buying from is located.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
Sure they should be able to, and it's the publisher's fault for not region locking keys.
That doesn't even make sense.
Are you saying if companies launch their games in foreign markets for the same price they charge domestically (i.e. charging 50USD in Malaysia), they won't sell?
Because yes that would be safe to assume.
Or are you saying if they release their games at full price they won't sell; which is how that's worded? Because that's silly.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
The differential regional pricing of games is, unfortunately, the (as yet unanswered) question of free vs fair markets. Your argument is the classic 'fair' trade argument - price items as can be afforded. The people advocating that we should be able to buy things wherever we want are advocating 'free' trade.
Perfectly free trade leads to monopolys, cartels and other abuses (which puts it slightly past pure capitalism and into the realms of libertarianism)
Perfectly fair trade is, in effect, an odd variant of communism (well, except its the person who determines what he needs and not the state).
In practise (as with most things), some form of balance is required. For media (both digitally distributed and not) the balance has simply yet to be found.
As an aside, probably a simpler solution (and to a certain extent the one followed by a number of the major companies) is issue the differently priced regional releases in different sets of languages...
Yes, you should, but that's not what's happening here. If you want to locate a licensed Malay distributor and get your game for $10, that's perfectly within your rights, and the distributor would probably be within their contract to sell it, so long as you were actually in Malaysia when you bought it. I cannot imagine this is a particularly cost-effective way of buying the game.
But this is different. This is (supposedly) a company buying retail copies of the game and then reselling the serials without the permission of the publisher, undercutting their business with their own product in markets they haven't been given permission to sell them in.
I'm not sure there is one. Are you traveling to Malaysia to bring back a whole pile of games in your suitcase to sell on the street corner, or are they for personal use? One is a violation of the EULA and possible copyright law, (but is unethical in any case) and the other is perfectly reasonable. This company is obviously doing the former.
Do I have to be in the US to buy stuff from Amazon?
I've bought a LotRO serial online since I wanted to play with the Ameristani PAers and didn't really feel like getting on a plane, did I break any EULA?
Well now, I hadn't brought the EULA into it, as it doesn't really come into the question at this point (bear with me):
company/person A goes abroad, walks into a store and buys all the copies of game X. No eulas signed yet.
A returns home and sells his copies to other people (not a breach of copyright* due to first sale - the physical thing that is the game belongs to A - it is his to do with as he pleases).
Now the EULA cannot have an impact on the sale between A and his customers - A has never agreed to the contract of the EULA (unless the store clerk he buys from originally makes him sign something or equivilent). BUT the publisher is perfectly within their rights to refuse to service A's customers if the EULA contains something like "We won't let you play with copies from different regions" (which they would clearly be in breach of).
Actually, the EULA can contain whatever the heck they like ("we won't let you play if we think you have eaten a banana in the last sixty minutes"), with the provisio of being limited by local laws.
we're not making a $10 game and then pricing it at $60 because we can. we're making a $60 game, then noting that everyone will pirate it in some eastern countries instead of buying at that price, then biting the bullet and pricing it lower there so that we at least get something instead of pirates getting everything.
can't speak for all companies. ray and greg turned down their bonuses last year and used money to minimize the number of layoffs we had to do at bioware. if people all got the $10 price, my company wouldn't shake its fist in frustration and then go back to its steak tartare. my company would go out of business.
aware it's a complex issue. this is my view from a low-level trench position.
If the game doesn't need the disc in the drive to play (I don't know if this is the case, but presumably it must be for this to work), then what is to stop you borrowing your friend's disc to install from?
Why the fuck does someone need permission from the publisher to sell a legally purchased product?
I would also argue that the EULA does not in any way apply in this case, as resellers do not need to agree to it before selling.
https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197970666737/
Blood Bowl doesn't even have a retail release yet. That's not even until September or so. As it is, right now the only way to buy the game is a direct download from the developer's website.
edit: inquisitor, it has been released in retail in france, spain and germany
Wrong. its out in europe.