edit: inquisitor, it has been released in retail in france, spain and germany
Didn't know that. However, I really doubt that it is selling cheap enough in any of those countries that G2play could be selling legally obtained CD keys and turning a profit at 14 pounds.
Publishers should set be able to set the price of their games to match the local economy, not the lowest common denominator.
Shouldn't consumers be able to buy stuff anywhere they want then?
Yes, you should, but that's not what's happening here. If you want to locate a licensed Malay distributor and get your game for $10, that's perfectly within your rights, and the distributor would probably be within their contract to sell it, so long as you were actually in Malaysia when you bought it. I cannot imagine this is a particularly cost-effective way of buying the game.
But this is different. This is (supposedly) a company buying retail copies of the game and then reselling the serials without the permission of the publisher, undercutting their business with their own product in markets they haven't been given permission to sell them in.
Why the fuck does someone need permission from the publisher to sell a legally purchased product?
I would also argue that the EULA does not in any way apply in this case, as resellers do not need to agree to it before selling.
There is absolutely nothing to indicate that this seller purchased the keys legally.
Also, afaik most games have implied EULAs you "agree" to when you buy the game. So if they're reselling a previously purchased product, they would be bound by the EULA. I highly doubt it would be enforceable in another country however, as they're pretty legally flimsy here.
There is absolutely nothing to indicate that this seller purchased the keys legally.
Also, afaik most games have implied EULAs you "agree" to when you buy the game. So if they're reselling a previously purchased product, they would be bound by the EULA. I highly doubt it would be enforceable in another country however, as they're pretty legally flimsy here.
re: legally: true, but there is the general case of how this sort of thing should be handled in cases where they have legitimately got them.
re: eulas: in general the eula's are worded 'by using / by installing this software' - You can't bind someone to a contract nor amend an existing one where they have no means by which to view the terms of the contract in advance.
Additionally, they can't adjust the contract of purchase between the retailer and the buyer (at least directly) - that would be third party interference (the publisher is not part of the contract created by the sale). They *could* have a contract with the retailer putting constraints on who the retailer could sell to, but I've not heard of that happening.
cwoac on
0
MrMonroepassed outon the floor nowRegistered Userregular
Yes, you should, but that's not what's happening here. If you want to locate a licensed Malay distributor and get your game for $10, that's perfectly within your rights, and the distributor would probably be within their contract to sell it, so long as you were actually in Malaysia when you bought it. I cannot imagine this is a particularly cost-effective way of buying the game.
Do I have to be in the US to buy stuff from Amazon?
I've bought a LotRO serial online since I wanted to play with the Ameristani PAers and didn't really feel like getting on a plane, did I break any EULA?
I don't know about Amazon's requirements, and they are a licensed retailer in any case.
Did you buy the LotRO serial from a licensed distributor? If so I don't see the problem.
I did misspeak, you don't have to be in Malaysia, but you do have to get it from a distributor.
If the publisher/developer doesn't want their product sold by anyone except licensed distributors, that's their prerogative. The fact that these guys are just selling serial numbers cuts right to the heart of the issue: the physical box you get when you buy the game is essentially an extra. What you are buying is a license to use the software. Most companies that supply more expensive products (like the one I work for) are willing to send you new media as long as you still have your license. What we don't tolerate is someone selling our product in bulk without permission. We'll grant a name-change on a license from one person to another when the first person leaves the company, but we don't really like it when someone buys a whole bunch of licenses from an Indian distributor for cheap so they can bring it to the UK and undercut our British distributor. When we sold those licenses in India, we sold them for use by the purchaser. The terms and conditions they agreed to during the sale prohibits that kind of behavior, the EULA not withstanding.
Yeah I think folks are getting bent out of shape over the misunderstanding between licensed and unlicensed sellers.
If you buy a game from a licensed distributor in another part of the world, assuming the game isn't region locked, then you legitimately purchased the game and regardless of what the price is, you're all good.
If you buy a serial key from a shady retailer with no credentials, no option to digitally download the product or otherwise provide the game media, who is not licensed; you have no right to get all pissy if the game publisher/developer decided to ban that key for being illegitimate or whatever.
Since when is there a license for video game sellers, or software retailers in general?
Since ever?
You can't just decide you want to start selling a game because you found a copy or you managed to produce the keys on your own.
If someone is selling keys they either got them legitimately from the publisher or developer, or they didn't.
Valve can't just put up any old game it wants to on steam, it has to be licensed to do so per game, per publisher. This is true for all stores. If EA doesn't want Gamestop to sell its games anymore, Gamestop can't just say "fuck you" and do it anyway.
Since when is there a license for video game sellers, or software retailers in general?
Since ever?
You can't just decide you want to start selling a game because you found a copy or you managed to produce the keys on your own.
If someone is selling keys they either got them legitimately from the publisher or developer, or they didn't.
Valve can't just put up any old game it wants to on steam, it has to be licensed to do so per game, per publisher. This is true for all stores. If EA doesn't want Gamestop to sell its games anymore, Gamestop can't just say "fuck you" and do it anyway.
Gamestop absolutely can do so. If EA decides to stop selling games to Gamestop, but GS wants to buy them from a different distributor, they have that right. Where did this mysterious license come from?
So if Valve decided to put all the games by, say, Stardock on Steam, by your reasoning they are fully within their rights?
No.
What distributor, exactly, do you think Gamestop could receive EA games from, should EA say "no games to Gamestop"? Distributors don't produce copies of the game, they still receive them from a publisher. And if the publisher says no, you don't.
Call it a license or whatever you want; that is just arguing semantics. This isn't the wild west; companies can't do whatever the hell they feel like.
ShadowfireVermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered Userregular
edited July 2009
Alright, I'll clarify then.
Gamestop buys their games from EA because they are both big enough to buy direct from EA, and too big to buy from another distributor. However, mom & pop shops? Local video stores, game stores and the like? They buy from distributors that buy from EA. So if EA said "go fuck yourselves" to Gamestop, Gamestop could then go to one of those other distributors and buy EA's titles from them. There's nothing EA can say to stop that.
So to take your analogy and make a more appropriate point out of it, if Valve took retail copies of Stardock's games and resold them, then yes it would be completely legal. If they took those legally purchased copies of Sins of a Solar Empire and made them available digitally, then while it's a little grey, I would bet that would still be legal (ability to make a backup copy, but those copies must transfer along with the original when sold, etc).
I figured GS would buy them from some other place that did get them from EA. They wouldn't be pressing discs and producing CD-Keys.
e: yeah valve probably could drop the games onto steam if they bought retail versions, depending on the EULA. They might have to make some wacky machine that destroys the disc when a person starts to download one or something.
Gamestop buys their games from EA because they are both big enough to buy direct from EA, and too big to buy from another distributor. However, mom & pop shops? Local video stores, game stores and the like? They buy from distributors that buy from EA. So if EA said "go fuck yourselves" to Gamestop, Gamestop could then go to one of those other distributors and buy EA's titles from them. There's nothing EA can say to stop that.
So to take your analogy and make a more appropriate point out of it, if Valve took retail copies of Stardock's games and resold them, then yes it would be completely legal. If they took those legally purchased copies of Sins of a Solar Empire and made them available digitally, then while it's a little grey, I would bet that would still be legal (ability to make a backup copy, but those copies must transfer along with the original when sold, etc).
I guarantee you Valve couldn't sell Stardock games on Steam without Stardocks permission. Stardock has their own proprietary means of digital distribution. Valve all the time states that they would like to sell X game on Steam but they don't have permission to do so. Also "used" is a completely irrelevant term in regards to digital distribution.
The fact is this site clearly states that these keys are "new" and that they are first use; thus implying they obtained them legitimately; whereas the Bood Bowl dev is say "no, that's not the case".
Of course Gamestop could continue to sell used EA games if EA decided to not distribute to them; used game sales is a completely different beast than new. But I would bet large sums of money there would be a lawsuit if they said they couldn't sell new games, and did anyway; and Gamestop would lose.
Not if they procured them through illegitimate means to begin with. Which is the entire point of this thread.
The Blood Bowl developer is saying that the company didn't get the keys from their publisher; implying that they got them through other, not likely legal, means. At that point, no matter how they sold them would be wrong.
While I dont doubt that you can sell a game key as "used" without providing media, anyone who bought it is asking for trouble and likely will get shafted.
You take a chance buying used games that are connected to serial keys anyway. The person who sold it could keep the key, and "steal" it back from you at any point. The difference between Steam/Impulse/Direct2Drive/GoG, etc, is that they are publisher/developer approved and backed. You can't buy a digitally distributed game "used".
hence the problem with this site. They're claiming to sell the keys as "new", but clearly didn't get them from the publishers, and even a cursory search provides numerous examples of people having to get 5, 6, 7, keys before they finally get one that worked. Maybe that's not a damning issue for you, but that makes it pretty clear to me that they aren't doing legitimate business.
Gamestop buys their games from EA because they are both big enough to buy direct from EA, and too big to buy from another distributor. However, mom & pop shops? Local video stores, game stores and the like? They buy from distributors that buy from EA. So if EA said "go fuck yourselves" to Gamestop, Gamestop could then go to one of those other distributors and buy EA's titles from them. There's nothing EA can say to stop that.
So to take your analogy and make a more appropriate point out of it, if Valve took retail copies of Stardock's games and resold them, then yes it would be completely legal. If they took those legally purchased copies of Sins of a Solar Empire and made them available digitally, then while it's a little grey, I would bet that would still be legal (ability to make a backup copy, but those copies must transfer along with the original when sold, etc).
I guarantee you Valve couldn't sell Stardock games on Steam without Stardocks permission. Stardock has their own proprietary means of digital distribution. Valve all the time states that they would like to sell X game on Steam but they don't have permission to do so. Also "used" is a completely irrelevant term in regards to digital distribution.
The fact is this site clearly states that these keys are "new" and that they are first use; thus implying they obtained them legitimately; whereas the Bood Bowl dev is say "no, that's not the case".
Of course Gamestop could continue to sell used EA games if EA decided to not distribute to them; used game sales is a completely different beast than new. But I would bet large sums of money there would be a lawsuit if they said they couldn't sell new games, and did anyway; and Gamestop would lose.
For the last part, no, EA would lose. In this case, EA would be attempting to restrict interstate commerce, and the courts would tell them to go screw.
As for the Blood Bowl dev, I challenge them to prove it. Saying the keys are illegitimate and saying they are illegal are two different things. If they were obtained from a different region, they are still legal, and technically legitimate, but something the publisher frowns upon.
so if this site had just put the serials on ebay and sold them as 'used' they would be fine?
It is illegal to re-sell licensed software such as PC games as far as I know.
I really doubt there is such a law.
What's with people's slavish adherence to EULAs? EULAs aren't necessarily binding to all their provisions, nor can they necessarily prevent things like this. EULAs that prohibit resale have been found invalid. It's very likely that even if the EULA prevents resale, that means there's a violation between the reseller and the company, but that doesn't invalidate the serial. There's no such thing as a licensed seller. If they're selling legal copies priced for say, Asia, and I fly to asia and buy one, no one's done anything wrong. It just sends people who want to maximize revenue into apopleptic fits. But no one in this thread owes those people anything.
Gamestop buys their games from EA because they are both big enough to buy direct from EA, and too big to buy from another distributor. However, mom & pop shops? Local video stores, game stores and the like? They buy from distributors that buy from EA. So if EA said "go fuck yourselves" to Gamestop, Gamestop could then go to one of those other distributors and buy EA's titles from them. There's nothing EA can say to stop that.
So to take your analogy and make a more appropriate point out of it, if Valve took retail copies of Stardock's games and resold them, then yes it would be completely legal. If they took those legally purchased copies of Sins of a Solar Empire and made them available digitally, then while it's a little grey, I would bet that would still be legal (ability to make a backup copy, but those copies must transfer along with the original when sold, etc).
I guarantee you Valve couldn't sell Stardock games on Steam without Stardocks permission. Stardock has their own proprietary means of digital distribution. Valve all the time states that they would like to sell X game on Steam but they don't have permission to do so. Also "used" is a completely irrelevant term in regards to digital distribution.
The fact is this site clearly states that these keys are "new" and that they are first use; thus implying they obtained them legitimately; whereas the Bood Bowl dev is say "no, that's not the case".
Of course Gamestop could continue to sell used EA games if EA decided to not distribute to them; used game sales is a completely different beast than new. But I would bet large sums of money there would be a lawsuit if they said they couldn't sell new games, and did anyway; and Gamestop would lose.
For the last part, no, EA would lose. In this case, EA would be attempting to restrict interstate commerce, and the courts would tell them to go screw.
As for the Blood Bowl dev, I challenge them to prove it. Saying the keys are illegitimate and saying they are illegal are two different things. If they were obtained from a different region, they are still legal, and technically legitimate, but something the publisher frowns upon.
And if they prove it then what? Will you still keep arguing that they're somehow legitimate? You have less proof that they are legitimate than the dev saying they aren't; considering it's their game.
Buy what you want. But don't bitch if it bites ya in the ass. If you're getting a brand new, not even released everywhere game, that retails for $50 for $10? yeah, something is fishy. Not gonna get a lot of sympathy if things go to shit.
As for the Blood Bowl dev, I challenge them to prove it. Saying the keys are illegitimate and saying they are illegal are two different things. If they were obtained from a different region, they are still legal, and technically legitimate, but something the publisher frowns upon.
They don't need to prove it. All they need to do is go ahead and ban the illegitimate accounts.
Okay, so the chain of sale is as follows: Publisher>Distributor>G2Play>Customer
Now there is nothing illegal about the way G2Play is selling these keys. You might not find the practice ethical, but that doesn't make it illegal. The question is, "Did G2Play obtain them illegally?" Some are arguing that even if G2Play purchased legit copies of the game, they're still in the wrong because they aren't "authorized sellers."
If the publisher only wanted certain retailers to be able to sell the game, then there needed to be an agreement with the distributor. They would have had to provide either a blacklist of retailers the distributor could not sell to, or a whitelist of the select retailers who were allowed. If there was no such agreement, or the language didn't preclude the sale to G2Play, then the publisher's claim that the keys aren't legit due to G2Play not being "licensed" is full of shit. If there is such an agreement, then their problem should really be with the distributor.
So, assuming G2Play purchased legit copies, and there was no contract between the publisher and distributor to preclude the sale to G2Play, than those keys are legitimate. So unless there is something in the EULA that states that players can't use a key from another region, then they have no grounds to ban the keys.
So unless there is something in the EULA that states that players can't use a key from another region, then they have no grounds to ban the keys.
And this is where they point at the "We can ban your license key at any time for no reason given" clause that I don't doubt for a second is in the EULA in one form or other.
The first-sale doctrine is a limitation on copyright that was recognized by the U.S. Supreme Court in 1908 and subsequently codified in the Copyright Act of 1976, 17 U.S.C. § 109. The doctrine allows the purchaser to transfer (i.e., sell or give away) a particular lawfully made copy of the copyrighted work without permission once it has been obtained. This means that the copyright holder's rights to control the change of ownership of a particular copy end once that copy is sold, as long as no additional copies are made. This doctrine is also referred to as the "first sale rule" or "exhaustion rule."
The only question here is the "lawfully made copy" part.
we're not making a $10 game and then pricing it at $60 because we can. we're making a $60 game, then noting that everyone will pirate it in some eastern countries instead of buying at that price, then biting the bullet and pricing it lower there so that we at least get something instead of pirates getting everything.
can't speak for all companies. ray and greg turned down their bonuses last year and used money to minimize the number of layoffs we had to do at bioware. if people all got the $10 price, my company wouldn't shake its fist in frustration and then go back to its steak tartare. my company would go out of business.
aware it's a complex issue. this is my view from a low-level trench position.
This seems basically reasonable to me. My company that sells medical devices, and we do basically the same thing; the main difference is that our product isn't as easy to ship around and resell as software. Distributors do get blacklisted if manufacturers get wind of them selling outside of their territories. But if it comes down to it, the US and Europe are where we make most of our money, and we would jettison the Asia, Africa, the Middle East, Latin America, etc. to preserve the first territories. I'm sure pharmaceutical companies are in the same boat. "Fuck the developing world" doesn't seem like a humane policy, but the fact is that they can't sustain the company at this point in time, so we have regional pricing.
Of course, the argument very much changes relating to Steam - Steam serials can only be input once, are forever tied to that account, and require no partner disc to activate. Essentially, a Steam serial key is functionally identical to a retail or digitally bought copy - it doesn't care how you acquired it. You might be insane to buy a key off of eBay, but if it was a legit key it'd be a legit purchase in every way - and there's no risk of anyone 'stealing it back'.
I can confirm that that G2Play are legit, in that the Left 4 Dead key I bought for £10 (before the first Steam sale on it, so it'd be £27 at that point) has had no problems whatsover - it is a standard english-language copy of the game. Valve are notably efficient at cracking down on illegal keys, for obvious reasons. 'Morality' aside, if the key is legit, is sold to you through whatever means (even reselling), and requires nothing more than a client to install a game, I can't see where any qualms would lie.
I know from previously working for Hewlett Packard and Compaq, that resellers are the bane of most companies, and if you buy from a reseller, you are asking to get fucked in some way.
With HP/Compaq, they would sell a large bulk order of PCs to another company at discount, that company would then resell the PCs to end-users at a smaller discount. But then any problems with those PCs, would mean they had to contact the reseller for support... but the reseller doesnt offer tech support for the PC, and HP/Compaq sold those PCs at discount because they were not going to support them.
With Bloodbowl, the support provided by Cyanide is them verifying the activation keys so that you can install the game. And they can withdraw that support for any reason they like.
Observations on the key discussion area's in this thread.
EULA’s in contract law:
Unless you are able to view the EULA before making a purchase, EULA’s are unenforceable due to contract law. When you purchase anything you are considered to have entered into a contract and contracts can only be redefined by the agreement of both parties. Having to agree to a EULA that you can’t view before purchase is considered to be redefining the contract so it would only be legitimate if you could say NO and still be able to use the product/service in the same way that was agreed upon at the start of the contract. Having the existence of a EULA printed on the box or the expectation that a EULA will exist doesn’t make it valid as you have no way of knowing what the terms are beforehand. Keep in mind though that the invalidity of EULA’s does not allow you to violate things like copy write or commerce laws.
Please stop perpetuating the myth the EULA's agreed to after the fact are worth anything.
Services like STEAM make you agree to a EULA before you purchase any games so you are actually bound by it for any contracts that you enter into with them. In the case of games like Dawn of War 2 and Empire Total War which are purchased from retail stores and do require the use of Steam things aren’t as black and white.
Distributers:
Most contracts that publishers/manufacturers have with distributors only allow them to sell the products/services to end users (normal customers). They are often prohibited from selling on to other distributers and are often region locked on where they can sell too and have the legal right to enforce this. The information provided here doesn’t say what the facts are in regards to this particular case for these agreements but common practice and the company’s actions can be seen as an indicator that these types of agreements are likely to be in effect.
Illegality:
Regardless of whether these keys are illegally being produced with a number generator or are coming from legitimately bought copies there is probably some illegality involved. You are only purchasing the KEY and so you must find the game files and the only ways I can think of to do so are illegal. If it came with the files there may be a chance to argue the legality of it but that would be difficult.
I can't wait until physical items are able to be locked down like digital media. Want to borrow my shovel? Sorry you can only use it in my yard, you need a license for your yard. Want to read one of my books? Don't take it out of my house or my entire library will catch on fire! Etc, etc...
PracticalProblemSolver on
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KlykaDO you have anySPARE BATTERIES?Registered Userregular
edited July 2009
What if I buy a key from this site and then rent a game for one day, use the disc to install with the key and return the game to the store.
I have no opinion on this situation, other than "this game is awesome and worth $50". But here's what the Blood Bowl developers posted on their forums.
There are plenty of sites offering keycodes online, even for Blood Bowl.
The Cyanide boards however are not the place to post threads in offering these keycodes.
All active threads have been deleted and any new ones will be deleted as they come up.
As soon as more info regarding the usability of these keycodes or the possibility of de-activation of all keycodes being purchased in this way, this post will be updated straight away.
EDIT: Jessica has confirmed that all key's sold by these websites will be blacklisted and become unusable. Any further threads regarding these keys will be deleted.
Sending them an e-mail now to ask where they are getting the serials.
I can't imagine this is legal or that these guys are licensed distributors.
If they are buying retail copies in bulk and then selling the serial numbers off the back of the box, that is exactly piracy. They're taking a purchased copy of the game then reselling it at a profit without giving the developer or publisher a cut.
What the hell are you talking about? Sounds like standard retail practice, here. Do you think Walmart or Bestbuy sell their copies at cost?
EDIT: was going to buy BloodBowl eventually, but to hell with that now. Fuck cyanide.
Developer botches their distribution plan and responds by screwing over a legally operating business and its customers?
Cool.
I can't read this without seeing it as one of those Onion cartoons.
POOR LEGALLY OPERATING BUSINESSES THAT TELL YOU TO GO FIND AN ISO OF THE GAME
POOR HARDWORKING CUSTOMERS
(crying Statue of Liberty)
No, don't you get it?
Those companies that spend millions of dollars and countless hours producing games that most of us spend the majority of our time playing? They're the man, man. We've got to stick it to the man!!
You know our righteous movement is working when a company finally puts out a game, sometime an excellent one, and then all the employees get laid off! Yeah!
That'll show them, all charging full price for a game, and not being cool with letting people steal it!
Sending them an e-mail now to ask where they are getting the serials.
I can't imagine this is legal or that these guys are licensed distributors.
If they are buying retail copies in bulk and then selling the serial numbers off the back of the box, that is exactly piracy. They're taking a purchased copy of the game then reselling it at a profit without giving the developer or publisher a cut.
What the hell are you talking about? Sounds like standard retail practice, here. Do you think Walmart or Bestbuy sell their copies at cost?
EDIT: was going to buy BloodBowl eventually, but to hell with that now. Fuck cyanide.
You're silly.
Gold Sellers in MMO fill a valuable niche (according to themselves and their customers). Doesnt stop the MMO developers from banning all accounts caught engaging in gold selling / RMT acts (including both the Gold Seller and their Customer).
I dont see a difference here either. G2Play is bypassing the authorized channels of distribution in an attempt to gain market advantage. Both G2Play and people purchasing what they are selling are going to be punished.
Cyanide's own post does not even claim the copies to be illegal, it only states that they're blacklisting every single instance of all such sales from any website; I guarantee you that legit customers and companies will lose money over this blanket knee-jerk reaction.
Cyanide made a rookie mistake in neglecting to region lock their keys, and now they're forcing customers to eat the damages on account of it.
kedinik on
I made a game! Hotline Maui. Requires mouse and keyboard.
Cyanide's own post does not even claim the copies to be illegal, it only states that they're blacklisting every single instance of all such sales from any website; I guarantee you that legit customers and companies will lose money over this blanket knee-jerk reaction.
Cyanide made a rookie mistake in neglecting to region lock their keys, and now they're forcing customers to eat the damages on account of it.
I'm guessing they don't end up blacklisting anything and its just a scare tactic myself. There's just too much risk of collateral damage, and I don't imagine they're losing many sales that way anyway.
"Dude I'll give you keys to that car for a thousand bucks."
"Ok... but wouldn't that car be worth 10 thousand normally."
"Yeah. Sweet deal huh?"
And yes, the developer/publisher is dumb since they didn't region lock the keys. Enough blame to go around for everyone. However, I doubt most of the people who bought this thought it was legitimate, nor did they care.
Darkchampion3d on
Our country is now taking so steady a course as to show by what road it will pass to destruction, to wit: by consolidation of power first, and then corruption, its necessary consequence --Thomas Jefferson
Posts
Didn't know that. However, I really doubt that it is selling cheap enough in any of those countries that G2play could be selling legally obtained CD keys and turning a profit at 14 pounds.
There is absolutely nothing to indicate that this seller purchased the keys legally.
Also, afaik most games have implied EULAs you "agree" to when you buy the game. So if they're reselling a previously purchased product, they would be bound by the EULA. I highly doubt it would be enforceable in another country however, as they're pretty legally flimsy here.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
Except for the ones where the retail key does actually work on Steam. (UT3/DoW2/E:TW etc)
re: legally: true, but there is the general case of how this sort of thing should be handled in cases where they have legitimately got them.
re: eulas: in general the eula's are worded 'by using / by installing this software' - You can't bind someone to a contract nor amend an existing one where they have no means by which to view the terms of the contract in advance.
Additionally, they can't adjust the contract of purchase between the retailer and the buyer (at least directly) - that would be third party interference (the publisher is not part of the contract created by the sale). They *could* have a contract with the retailer putting constraints on who the retailer could sell to, but I've not heard of that happening.
I don't know about Amazon's requirements, and they are a licensed retailer in any case.
Did you buy the LotRO serial from a licensed distributor? If so I don't see the problem.
I did misspeak, you don't have to be in Malaysia, but you do have to get it from a distributor.
If the publisher/developer doesn't want their product sold by anyone except licensed distributors, that's their prerogative. The fact that these guys are just selling serial numbers cuts right to the heart of the issue: the physical box you get when you buy the game is essentially an extra. What you are buying is a license to use the software. Most companies that supply more expensive products (like the one I work for) are willing to send you new media as long as you still have your license. What we don't tolerate is someone selling our product in bulk without permission. We'll grant a name-change on a license from one person to another when the first person leaves the company, but we don't really like it when someone buys a whole bunch of licenses from an Indian distributor for cheap so they can bring it to the UK and undercut our British distributor. When we sold those licenses in India, we sold them for use by the purchaser. The terms and conditions they agreed to during the sale prohibits that kind of behavior, the EULA not withstanding.
If you buy a game from a licensed distributor in another part of the world, assuming the game isn't region locked, then you legitimately purchased the game and regardless of what the price is, you're all good.
If you buy a serial key from a shady retailer with no credentials, no option to digitally download the product or otherwise provide the game media, who is not licensed; you have no right to get all pissy if the game publisher/developer decided to ban that key for being illegitimate or whatever.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
Since ever?
You can't just decide you want to start selling a game because you found a copy or you managed to produce the keys on your own.
If someone is selling keys they either got them legitimately from the publisher or developer, or they didn't.
Valve can't just put up any old game it wants to on steam, it has to be licensed to do so per game, per publisher. This is true for all stores. If EA doesn't want Gamestop to sell its games anymore, Gamestop can't just say "fuck you" and do it anyway.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
Gamestop absolutely can do so. If EA decides to stop selling games to Gamestop, but GS wants to buy them from a different distributor, they have that right. Where did this mysterious license come from?
No.
What distributor, exactly, do you think Gamestop could receive EA games from, should EA say "no games to Gamestop"? Distributors don't produce copies of the game, they still receive them from a publisher. And if the publisher says no, you don't.
Call it a license or whatever you want; that is just arguing semantics. This isn't the wild west; companies can't do whatever the hell they feel like.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
Gamestop buys their games from EA because they are both big enough to buy direct from EA, and too big to buy from another distributor. However, mom & pop shops? Local video stores, game stores and the like? They buy from distributors that buy from EA. So if EA said "go fuck yourselves" to Gamestop, Gamestop could then go to one of those other distributors and buy EA's titles from them. There's nothing EA can say to stop that.
So to take your analogy and make a more appropriate point out of it, if Valve took retail copies of Stardock's games and resold them, then yes it would be completely legal. If they took those legally purchased copies of Sins of a Solar Empire and made them available digitally, then while it's a little grey, I would bet that would still be legal (ability to make a backup copy, but those copies must transfer along with the original when sold, etc).
e: yeah valve probably could drop the games onto steam if they bought retail versions, depending on the EULA. They might have to make some wacky machine that destroys the disc when a person starts to download one or something.
I guarantee you Valve couldn't sell Stardock games on Steam without Stardocks permission. Stardock has their own proprietary means of digital distribution. Valve all the time states that they would like to sell X game on Steam but they don't have permission to do so. Also "used" is a completely irrelevant term in regards to digital distribution.
The fact is this site clearly states that these keys are "new" and that they are first use; thus implying they obtained them legitimately; whereas the Bood Bowl dev is say "no, that's not the case".
Of course Gamestop could continue to sell used EA games if EA decided to not distribute to them; used game sales is a completely different beast than new. But I would bet large sums of money there would be a lawsuit if they said they couldn't sell new games, and did anyway; and Gamestop would lose.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
The Blood Bowl developer is saying that the company didn't get the keys from their publisher; implying that they got them through other, not likely legal, means. At that point, no matter how they sold them would be wrong.
While I dont doubt that you can sell a game key as "used" without providing media, anyone who bought it is asking for trouble and likely will get shafted.
You take a chance buying used games that are connected to serial keys anyway. The person who sold it could keep the key, and "steal" it back from you at any point. The difference between Steam/Impulse/Direct2Drive/GoG, etc, is that they are publisher/developer approved and backed. You can't buy a digitally distributed game "used".
hence the problem with this site. They're claiming to sell the keys as "new", but clearly didn't get them from the publishers, and even a cursory search provides numerous examples of people having to get 5, 6, 7, keys before they finally get one that worked. Maybe that's not a damning issue for you, but that makes it pretty clear to me that they aren't doing legitimate business.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
For the last part, no, EA would lose. In this case, EA would be attempting to restrict interstate commerce, and the courts would tell them to go screw.
As for the Blood Bowl dev, I challenge them to prove it. Saying the keys are illegitimate and saying they are illegal are two different things. If they were obtained from a different region, they are still legal, and technically legitimate, but something the publisher frowns upon.
It is illegal to re-sell licensed software such as PC games as far as I know.
I really doubt there is such a law.
What's with people's slavish adherence to EULAs? EULAs aren't necessarily binding to all their provisions, nor can they necessarily prevent things like this. EULAs that prohibit resale have been found invalid. It's very likely that even if the EULA prevents resale, that means there's a violation between the reseller and the company, but that doesn't invalidate the serial. There's no such thing as a licensed seller. If they're selling legal copies priced for say, Asia, and I fly to asia and buy one, no one's done anything wrong. It just sends people who want to maximize revenue into apopleptic fits. But no one in this thread owes those people anything.
And if they prove it then what? Will you still keep arguing that they're somehow legitimate? You have less proof that they are legitimate than the dev saying they aren't; considering it's their game.
Buy what you want. But don't bitch if it bites ya in the ass. If you're getting a brand new, not even released everywhere game, that retails for $50 for $10? yeah, something is fishy. Not gonna get a lot of sympathy if things go to shit.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
They don't need to prove it. All they need to do is go ahead and ban the illegitimate accounts.
Now there is nothing illegal about the way G2Play is selling these keys. You might not find the practice ethical, but that doesn't make it illegal. The question is, "Did G2Play obtain them illegally?" Some are arguing that even if G2Play purchased legit copies of the game, they're still in the wrong because they aren't "authorized sellers."
If the publisher only wanted certain retailers to be able to sell the game, then there needed to be an agreement with the distributor. They would have had to provide either a blacklist of retailers the distributor could not sell to, or a whitelist of the select retailers who were allowed. If there was no such agreement, or the language didn't preclude the sale to G2Play, then the publisher's claim that the keys aren't legit due to G2Play not being "licensed" is full of shit. If there is such an agreement, then their problem should really be with the distributor.
So, assuming G2Play purchased legit copies, and there was no contract between the publisher and distributor to preclude the sale to G2Play, than those keys are legitimate. So unless there is something in the EULA that states that players can't use a key from another region, then they have no grounds to ban the keys.
And this is where they point at the "We can ban your license key at any time for no reason given" clause that I don't doubt for a second is in the EULA in one form or other.
Also, it seems some people haven't heard of the first-sale doctrine.
The only question here is the "lawfully made copy" part.
This seems basically reasonable to me. My company that sells medical devices, and we do basically the same thing; the main difference is that our product isn't as easy to ship around and resell as software. Distributors do get blacklisted if manufacturers get wind of them selling outside of their territories. But if it comes down to it, the US and Europe are where we make most of our money, and we would jettison the Asia, Africa, the Middle East, Latin America, etc. to preserve the first territories. I'm sure pharmaceutical companies are in the same boat. "Fuck the developing world" doesn't seem like a humane policy, but the fact is that they can't sustain the company at this point in time, so we have regional pricing.
I can confirm that that G2Play are legit, in that the Left 4 Dead key I bought for £10 (before the first Steam sale on it, so it'd be £27 at that point) has had no problems whatsover - it is a standard english-language copy of the game. Valve are notably efficient at cracking down on illegal keys, for obvious reasons. 'Morality' aside, if the key is legit, is sold to you through whatever means (even reselling), and requires nothing more than a client to install a game, I can't see where any qualms would lie.
With HP/Compaq, they would sell a large bulk order of PCs to another company at discount, that company would then resell the PCs to end-users at a smaller discount. But then any problems with those PCs, would mean they had to contact the reseller for support... but the reseller doesnt offer tech support for the PC, and HP/Compaq sold those PCs at discount because they were not going to support them.
With Bloodbowl, the support provided by Cyanide is them verifying the activation keys so that you can install the game. And they can withdraw that support for any reason they like.
MWO: Adamski
EULA’s in contract law:
Please stop perpetuating the myth the EULA's agreed to after the fact are worth anything.
Services like STEAM make you agree to a EULA before you purchase any games so you are actually bound by it for any contracts that you enter into with them. In the case of games like Dawn of War 2 and Empire Total War which are purchased from retail stores and do require the use of Steam things aren’t as black and white.
Distributers:
Illegality:
Illegal?
http://www.cyanide-studio.com/forumBB/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3393
Cool.
What the hell are you talking about? Sounds like standard retail practice, here. Do you think Walmart or Bestbuy sell their copies at cost?
EDIT: was going to buy BloodBowl eventually, but to hell with that now. Fuck cyanide.
Yeah, that's the most likely scenario...
where's eyeroll when you need it.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
I can't read this without seeing it as one of those Onion cartoons.
POOR LEGALLY OPERATING BUSINESSES THAT TELL YOU TO GO FIND AN ISO OF THE GAME
POOR HARDWORKING CUSTOMERS
(crying Statue of Liberty)
No, don't you get it?
Those companies that spend millions of dollars and countless hours producing games that most of us spend the majority of our time playing? They're the man, man. We've got to stick it to the man!!
You know our righteous movement is working when a company finally puts out a game, sometime an excellent one, and then all the employees get laid off! Yeah!
That'll show them, all charging full price for a game, and not being cool with letting people steal it!
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
You're silly.
Gold Sellers in MMO fill a valuable niche (according to themselves and their customers). Doesnt stop the MMO developers from banning all accounts caught engaging in gold selling / RMT acts (including both the Gold Seller and their Customer).
I dont see a difference here either. G2Play is bypassing the authorized channels of distribution in an attempt to gain market advantage. Both G2Play and people purchasing what they are selling are going to be punished.
MWO: Adamski
Cyanide made a rookie mistake in neglecting to region lock their keys, and now they're forcing customers to eat the damages on account of it.
"Ok... but wouldn't that car be worth 10 thousand normally."
"Yeah. Sweet deal huh?"
And yes, the developer/publisher is dumb since they didn't region lock the keys. Enough blame to go around for everyone. However, I doubt most of the people who bought this thought it was legitimate, nor did they care.