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[DnD 4E Discussion] Adventurers Vault 2 this month professor!

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Posts

  • Premier kakosPremier kakos Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited July 2009
    Goumindong wrote: »
    I can't find anything that prevents a player from having more than 1 mark, what is up with that?

    Ahem.
    Some feats in this section have the "[Dragonmark]" expression. These feats are associated with Eberron's dragonmarks. A character can only have one such dragonmarked feat.

    Premier kakos on
  • REG RyskREG Rysk Lord Rageface Rageington The Exploding ManRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    YesNoMu wrote: »
    REG Rysk wrote: »
    Well look the roots was just an idea in my head, I'm not specifically thinking of them. And yes I totally get the 'don't damage one player TWICE with one area attack' thing. He doesn't walk on the ground, he floats but does not hover. I want you to feel a danger in keeping him close with monsters you know attack areas, but not deter you from keeping him near your allies.
    Well, that ain't gonna happen unless you're going to make another houserule. Did you have something in mind?

    How about:

    Scruffy is an extension of your soul, so if an effect would target both you and scruffy, it targets only one. So monsters have to choose between dissipating the bear (maybe) for a round and dealing lower damage to you or damaging you outright.

    He's still unaffected by stuff like daze and immobilization, but can be targeted for the purpose of destroying him.

    I'm not 100% on this, but your opinion does matter here. It seems a reasonable compromise since he's such a badass as a 'don't provoke AOOs from me' type of semi-defender.

    REG Rysk on
  • DVGDVG No. 1 Honor Student Nether Institute, Evil AcademyRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    So map-making tools.

    Does anyone have a suggestion for a free or nearly-free tool for creating both Dungeon maps and/or world maps?

    DVG on
    Diablo 3 - DVG#1857
  • zenpotatozenpotato Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    This guy is pretty sweet for $35.

    http://www.nbos.com/products/mapper/mapper.htm

    zenpotato on
  • tastydonutstastydonuts Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    zenpotato wrote: »
    This guy is pretty sweet for $35.

    http://www.nbos.com/products/mapper/mapper.htm

    I own it. It's a mixed bag.

    tastydonuts on
    “I used to draw, hard to admit that I used to draw...”
  • YesNoMuYesNoMu Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    REG Rysk wrote: »
    YesNoMu wrote: »
    REG Rysk wrote: »
    Well look the roots was just an idea in my head, I'm not specifically thinking of them. And yes I totally get the 'don't damage one player TWICE with one area attack' thing. He doesn't walk on the ground, he floats but does not hover. I want you to feel a danger in keeping him close with monsters you know attack areas, but not deter you from keeping him near your allies.
    Well, that ain't gonna happen unless you're going to make another houserule. Did you have something in mind?

    How about:

    Scruffy is an extension of your soul, so if an effect would target both you and scruffy, it targets only one. So monsters have to choose between dissipating the bear (maybe) for a round and dealing lower damage to you or damaging you outright.

    He's still unaffected by stuff like daze and immobilization, but can be targeted for the purpose of destroying him.

    I'm not 100% on this, but your opinion does matter here. It seems a reasonable compromise since he's such a badass as a 'don't provoke AOOs from me' type of semi-defender.
    That's kind of a big nerf--especially since like any ranged character I stay away from burst formations. But I'd be willing to try it out tonight, if you'd like.

    In exchange for the increased physical vulnerability, though, I'd like it if he had more physical presence--specifically the ability to interact with objects. Giving him the manipulation abilities of a rat familiar or a bit stronger (maybe up to 20 pounds, like mage hand?) sounds fair to me.

    Ooh, and what about OAs against enemies making ranged attacks? It always bothered me he couldn't do that.

    YesNoMu on
    camo_sig2.png
  • tastydonutstastydonuts Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Uhm, are you two having this conversation here so that we can chime in and provide input or something?

    because if you are, the "compromise" is absurd. I don't want you to think I'm getting on you, but really. anything beyond it only targeting one of you instead of both of you is just meh, imo.

    tastydonuts on
    “I used to draw, hard to admit that I used to draw...”
  • YesNoMuYesNoMu Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Of course people can provide their own opinions, or I'd take it to PMs. I'd especially like to hear from players and DMs who have seen Shamans in action and can provide their own experiences.

    And dude, he's talking about a serious nerf to the spirit, in the form of opening up the other two attack categories. I think it's fair to ask for something in return, and neither of those are powerful abilities.

    YesNoMu on
    camo_sig2.png
  • RendRend Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    I've had some considerable experience with the shaman, both as a player and as a DM, and I think it's fine as is.

    It's good movement denial, yes, but there are quite a few disadvantages to counter the advantage of a spirit.

    Rend on
  • Mostlyjoe13Mostlyjoe13 Evil, Evil, Jump for joy! Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Rend wrote: »
    I've had some considerable experience with the shaman, both as a player and as a DM, and I think it's fine as is.

    It's good movement denial, yes, but there are quite a few disadvantages to counter the advantage of a spirit.

    Agreed. Shamans are fun because they have some very Defendery tricks in there...if they're willing to risk their spirit in direct combat and not play Mr. Sneaky Healy like some Laser Clerics do.

    Mostlyjoe13 on
    PSN ID - Mostlyjoe Steam ID -TheNotoriusRNG
  • REG RyskREG Rysk Lord Rageface Rageington The Exploding ManRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Rend wrote: »
    I've had some considerable experience with the shaman, both as a player and as a DM, and I think it's fine as is.

    It's good movement denial, yes, but there are quite a few disadvantages to counter the advantage of a spirit.

    Agreed. Shamans are fun because they have some very Defendery tricks in there...if they're willing to risk their spirit in direct combat and not play Mr. Sneaky Healy like some Laser Clerics do.

    But with a defender that isn't a paladin or swordmage, wheres the risk? Multiple marked targets who aren't mindless are going to attack the substantial targets. I agree it's quite defender-y, but wheres the risk? If you're looking to have a compromise that substantial, I don't think we'll see eye to eye. Mage hand like power is quite useful, and I wouldn't be too keen to concede that.

    Here's a counter-proposal. He can be targetted by bursts and blasts and the damage requirements remain the same. However, should he be 'killed' by the attack, he is dispersed and you suffer no damage. That is a give, and a take, since you'll just bring him back in the next turn, but still requires some tactical positioning.

    REG Rysk on
  • SAW776SAW776 Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    I'm just curious.. but why are you really trying to mess with the Spirit's RAW? Why not just tweak encounters a bit to compensate for it?

    SAW776 on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    PSN: SAW776
  • HorseshoeHorseshoe Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    REG Rysk wrote: »
    This is where I have an issue with how it works logically. All bursts and blasts are not explosions of great magnitude, some of them are volleys of arrows or daggers, roots sprouting from the ground, all sorts of happy stuff. Why would it seem that all of these cataclysmic events go on, while a spiritual bear just sits there and takes it with no ill effect? My brain does not want this to work.

    Clarify this for me:

    Do you think conjurations are unbalanced?

    Or do you just not like them?

    Horseshoe on
    dmsigsmallek3.jpg
  • REG RyskREG Rysk Lord Rageface Rageington The Exploding ManRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    How would I tweak an encounter to compensate for a non multi-targetabble, resummonable, movement restricting, healpet? I just don't see much of a way to hinder it without wrecking the entire group.

    More so, however, it's because I feel the RAW is poorly worded or a bit weak. So I'm hazy on the RAI aspect of it. It's not like he's destroying every creature I put up against him and his group.

    EDIT: Niether Horse, I feel it is written poorly.

    REG Rysk on
  • SAW776SAW776 Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    By the sounds of it you don't need to compensate if its not actually causing a problem. It seems like you're just making one up in your own head.

    If its not breaking your encounters, then just ignore it like all the other powers that defy logic. A wizard did it. Or, in this case, a shaman.

    SAW776 on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    PSN: SAW776
  • AriviaArivia I Like A Challenge Earth-1Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    But there were no spirit wolves at the Battle of Hastings, therefore it is wrong.

    Arivia on
    huntresssig.jpg
  • YesNoMuYesNoMu Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Hey, I can see his point. The (oh lord) verisimilitude of the game doesn't have to be totally shot, he has the right to change stuff that breaks his immersion.

    Rysk: I can always spend the two feats to get a rat buddy (or pay a pittance for Hedge Wizard's Gloves), and it hurts my immersion that Scruffy can't interact with things besides killing them. I'd be willing to go for the same manipulation ability as the rat, I suppose.

    YesNoMu on
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  • tastydonutstastydonuts Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    SAW776 wrote: »
    By the sounds of it you don't need to compensate if its not actually causing a problem. It seems like you're just making one up in your own head.

    If its not breaking your encounters, then just ignore it like all the other powers that defy logic. A wizard did it. Or, in this case, a shaman.

    Or just make a monster that shoots protons that will neutralize the PK energy of the spirit companion. And have this monster work with a large group of tiny minions with mouths that open on command which are capable of sucking in the spirit companion after its PK energy has been sufficiently destabilized.

    The monsters, upon doing so die and cause the player to lose 1d6 healing surges.

    That's what I would do.

    tastydonuts on
    “I used to draw, hard to admit that I used to draw...”
  • AriviaArivia I Like A Challenge Earth-1Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    SAW776 wrote: »
    By the sounds of it you don't need to compensate if its not actually causing a problem. It seems like you're just making one up in your own head.

    If its not breaking your encounters, then just ignore it like all the other powers that defy logic. A wizard did it. Or, in this case, a shaman.

    Or just make a monster that shoots protons that will neutralize the PK energy of the spirit companion. And have this monster work with a large group of tiny minions with mouths that open on command which are capable of sucking in the spirit companion after its PK energy has been sufficiently destabilized.

    The monsters, upon doing so die and cause the player to lose 1d6 healing surges.

    That's what I would do.

    I know that monster! it's in the 1e Fiend Folio!

    Seriously, there is a monster in there that the PCs cannot interact with in any way, but is drawn to other monsters and makes them slightly harder. This is what game balance looks like, folks.

    Arivia on
    huntresssig.jpg
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  • RendRend Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    REG Rysk wrote: »
    Rend wrote: »
    I've had some considerable experience with the shaman, both as a player and as a DM, and I think it's fine as is.

    It's good movement denial, yes, but there are quite a few disadvantages to counter the advantage of a spirit.

    Agreed. Shamans are fun because they have some very Defendery tricks in there...if they're willing to risk their spirit in direct combat and not play Mr. Sneaky Healy like some Laser Clerics do.

    But with a defender that isn't a paladin or swordmage, wheres the risk? Multiple marked targets who aren't mindless are going to attack the substantial targets. I agree it's quite defender-y, but wheres the risk? If you're looking to have a compromise that substantial, I don't think we'll see eye to eye. Mage hand like power is quite useful, and I wouldn't be too keen to concede that.

    Here's a counter-proposal. He can be targetted by bursts and blasts and the damage requirements remain the same. However, should he be 'killed' by the attack, he is dispersed and you suffer no damage. That is a give, and a take, since you'll just bring him back in the next turn, but still requires some tactical positioning.

    In exchange for a pseudo-defender (not as good as a real defender, let's not kid ourselves) he has to sacrifice a lot of healing power. He's the only leader that doesn't get an additional dice + an additional static modifier to his single target heals. And quite often his spirit is either indisposed or otherwise incorrectly positioned to give the extra hp away to another target, if there's even a target within 2 squares of the original that NEEDS the healing.

    Shamans lose, at starting levels, 1-6 HP per heal on single targets, and that only goes up with level.

    In exchange, he gets the spirit.

    Rend on
  • REG RyskREG Rysk Lord Rageface Rageington The Exploding ManRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    I'm not trying to be a jerk of a DM, I'm trying to help my brain and my player at the same time for something I think is a broken RAW. We've had one response saying it's fine, so it's likely to remain as is. Other people's opinions do matter, none of your comments have been brushed off. Except the Fiend Folio. That's just silly.

    EDIT: Where do you get no static bonus? Standing next to his bear is a HUGE bonus, something like +4 to anybody using a surge? The healing is not the issue. The bear is broken in a couple of ways straight up, like Aegeri said the free move, which I totally understand why they do that. My wizard with his familiar is often left way behind, simply because I have no actions to move him with. Second, it's AOO grants temp HP hit or miss. That is, if you ask me, more of a reason to not provoke AOO from it than the mark effects of almost any other defender because of the change to have zero effect.

    REG Rysk on
  • RendRend Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    REG Rysk wrote: »
    I'm not trying to be a jerk of a DM, I'm trying to help my brain and my player at the same time for something I think is a broken RAW. We've had one response saying it's fine, so it's likely to remain as is. Other people's opinions do matter, none of your comments have been brushed off. Except the Fiend Folio. That's just silly.

    I can understand what you're coming from, but having played and DM'd a shaman before, they do indeed give up character options and power in exchange for the spirit companion.

    Rend on
  • 3cl1ps33cl1ps3 I will build a labyrinth to house the cheese Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    REG Rysk wrote: »
    I'm not trying to be a jerk of a DM, I'm trying to help my brain and my player at the same time for something I think is a broken RAW. We've had one response saying it's fine, so it's likely to remain as is. Other people's opinions do matter, none of your comments have been brushed off. Except the Fiend Folio. That's just silly.

    Re-read the description that tastydonuts posted for the Fiend Folio.

    It's the fucking Ghostbusters.

    3cl1ps3 on
  • REG RyskREG Rysk Lord Rageface Rageington The Exploding ManRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    3clipse wrote: »
    REG Rysk wrote: »
    I'm not trying to be a jerk of a DM, I'm trying to help my brain and my player at the same time for something I think is a broken RAW. We've had one response saying it's fine, so it's likely to remain as is. Other people's opinions do matter, none of your comments have been brushed off. Except the Fiend Folio. That's just silly.

    Re-read the description that tastydonuts posted for the Fiend Folio.

    It's the fucking Ghostbusters.

    I know, twas silly, and this discarded.

    Did I say it wasn't AWESOME. Because Ghostbusters are AWESOME.

    REG Rysk on
  • tastydonutstastydonuts Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Arivia wrote: »
    SAW776 wrote: »
    By the sounds of it you don't need to compensate if its not actually causing a problem. It seems like you're just making one up in your own head.

    If its not breaking your encounters, then just ignore it like all the other powers that defy logic. A wizard did it. Or, in this case, a shaman.

    Or just make a monster that shoots protons that will neutralize the PK energy of the spirit companion. And have this monster work with a large group of tiny minions with mouths that open on command which are capable of sucking in the spirit companion after its PK energy has been sufficiently destabilized.

    The monsters, upon doing so die and cause the player to lose 1d6 healing surges.

    That's what I would do.

    I know that monster! it's in the 1e Fiend Folio!

    Seriously, there is a monster in there that the PCs cannot interact with in any way, but is drawn to other monsters and makes them slightly harder. This is what game balance looks like, folks.

    Is it called a Venkman in there?

    tastydonuts on
    “I used to draw, hard to admit that I used to draw...”
  • HorseshoeHorseshoe Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Rend wrote: »
    REG Rysk wrote: »
    I'm not trying to be a jerk of a DM, I'm trying to help my brain and my player at the same time for something I think is a broken RAW. We've had one response saying it's fine, so it's likely to remain as is. Other people's opinions do matter, none of your comments have been brushed off. Except the Fiend Folio. That's just silly.

    I can understand what you're coming from, but having played and DM'd a shaman before, they do indeed give up character options and power in exchange for the spirit companion.

    I agree with Rend. Shamans have plenty of drawbacks.

    I think you may be overlooking a lot of the balancing factors that are already present in the shaman class because you're having a hard time with the particulars of a Conjuration.

    Horseshoe on
    dmsigsmallek3.jpg
  • 3cl1ps33cl1ps3 I will build a labyrinth to house the cheese Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    REG Rysk wrote: »
    3clipse wrote: »
    REG Rysk wrote: »
    I'm not trying to be a jerk of a DM, I'm trying to help my brain and my player at the same time for something I think is a broken RAW. We've had one response saying it's fine, so it's likely to remain as is. Other people's opinions do matter, none of your comments have been brushed off. Except the Fiend Folio. That's just silly.

    Re-read the description that tastydonuts posted for the Fiend Folio.

    It's the fucking Ghostbusters.

    I know, twas silly, and this discarded.

    Did I say it wasn't AWESOME. Because Ghostbusters are AWESOME.

    They're even in your sig! At the moment, at least.

    3cl1ps3 on
  • edited July 2009
    This content has been removed.

  • YesNoMuYesNoMu Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Rend wrote: »
    In exchange for a pseudo-defender (not as good as a real defender, let's not kid ourselves) he has to sacrifice a lot of healing power. He's the only leader that doesn't get an additional dice + an additional static modifier to his single target heals. And quite often his spirit is either indisposed or otherwise incorrectly positioned to give the extra hp away to another target, if there's even a target within 2 squares of the original that NEEDS the healing.

    Shamans lose, at starting levels, 1-6 HP per heal on single targets, and that only goes up with level.

    In exchange, he gets the spirit.
    Well, it might just be that we have a Warlord helping out too, but I don't feel like I'm giving up much healing. With my Bear spirit boon, Protecting Strike and Spirit Shield, I put out a fair amount of health and THP.

    Rysk: Don't worry, I definitely don't think you're trying to screw me over or being a jerk of a DM, and I think I understand where you're coming from.

    YesNoMu on
    camo_sig2.png
  • HorseshoeHorseshoe Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Aegeri wrote: »
    Man, if you think spirit pets are a problem imagine someone summoning a flaming sphere underwater; in the pelagic plane.

    Now that causes headaches.

    in the case of flaming sphere

    a wizard did it

    literally

    Horseshoe on
    dmsigsmallek3.jpg
  • AriviaArivia I Like A Challenge Earth-1Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Arivia wrote: »
    SAW776 wrote: »
    By the sounds of it you don't need to compensate if its not actually causing a problem. It seems like you're just making one up in your own head.

    If its not breaking your encounters, then just ignore it like all the other powers that defy logic. A wizard did it. Or, in this case, a shaman.

    Or just make a monster that shoots protons that will neutralize the PK energy of the spirit companion. And have this monster work with a large group of tiny minions with mouths that open on command which are capable of sucking in the spirit companion after its PK energy has been sufficiently destabilized.

    The monsters, upon doing so die and cause the player to lose 1d6 healing surges.

    That's what I would do.

    I know that monster! it's in the 1e Fiend Folio!

    Seriously, there is a monster in there that the PCs cannot interact with in any way, but is drawn to other monsters and makes them slightly harder. This is what game balance looks like, folks.

    Is it called a Venkman in there?

    It's called a Trilloch, but with the amount of non-interactivity possible (by the way, it's permanently incoporeal and invisible) you could call it President Obama with much the same effect.

    Arivia on
    huntresssig.jpg
  • REG RyskREG Rysk Lord Rageface Rageington The Exploding ManRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Yesnomu does a ton, and is definitely the right class fit for my group. A leader that sub-defenders, if you will, but I feel like the conjuration is doing too much. I suppose I feel part of that does tie into other conjurations and how dependent on their owners actions to do anything. Maybe I'm just prejudiced against bears. It's that player-in-chief article....DAMN YOU SHELLY MAZZANOBLE!

    REG Rysk on
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  • IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Aegeri wrote: »
    Man, if you think spirit pets are a problem imagine someone summoning a flaming sphere underwater; in the pelagic plane.

    Now that causes headaches.

    Honestly, with magic, I wouldn't see it as that big of a problem.

    Even elementalism I'd just assume that the shape of the flame is kept in check by the will of the elementalist, and so kept from boiling the surrounding water, though the stuff in its radius will surely be turned to steam.

    Incenjucar on
  • RendRend Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    YesNoMu wrote: »
    Rend wrote: »
    In exchange for a pseudo-defender (not as good as a real defender, let's not kid ourselves) he has to sacrifice a lot of healing power. He's the only leader that doesn't get an additional dice + an additional static modifier to his single target heals. And quite often his spirit is either indisposed or otherwise incorrectly positioned to give the extra hp away to another target, if there's even a target within 2 squares of the original that NEEDS the healing.

    Shamans lose, at starting levels, 1-6 HP per heal on single targets, and that only goes up with level.

    In exchange, he gets the spirit.
    Well, it might just be that we have a Warlord helping out too, but I don't feel like I'm giving up much healing. With my Bear spirit boon, Protecting Strike and Spirit Shield, I put out a fair amount of health and THP.

    Rysk: Don't worry, I definitely don't think you're trying to screw me over or being a jerk of a DM, and I think I understand where you're coming from.

    The shaman I play is the only leader in the group. The healing is still effective yeah, but it is definitely numerically inferior to the other leaders, and a lot more conditional as well.

    Don't get me wrong, i love the way they play. I think what they get back is definitely worth what they give up.

    Rend on
  • AriviaArivia I Like A Challenge Earth-1Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    REG Rysk wrote: »
    Maybe I'm just prejudiced against bears. It's that player-in-chief article....DAMN YOU SHELLY MAZZANOBLE!

    I think there needs to be a Godwin's Law for Shelly Mazzanoble. Like, as soon as someone mentions her, we aren't really talking about D&D any more. Or fun. She could make nail polish boring.

    Arivia on
    huntresssig.jpg
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  • tastydonutstastydonuts Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Arivia wrote: »
    Arivia wrote: »
    SAW776 wrote: »
    By the sounds of it you don't need to compensate if its not actually causing a problem. It seems like you're just making one up in your own head.

    If its not breaking your encounters, then just ignore it like all the other powers that defy logic. A wizard did it. Or, in this case, a shaman.

    Or just make a monster that shoots protons that will neutralize the PK energy of the spirit companion. And have this monster work with a large group of tiny minions with mouths that open on command which are capable of sucking in the spirit companion after its PK energy has been sufficiently destabilized.

    The monsters, upon doing so die and cause the player to lose 1d6 healing surges.

    That's what I would do.

    I know that monster! it's in the 1e Fiend Folio!

    Seriously, there is a monster in there that the PCs cannot interact with in any way, but is drawn to other monsters and makes them slightly harder. This is what game balance looks like, folks.

    Is it called a Venkman in there?

    It's called a Trilloch, but with the amount of non-interactivity possible (by the way, it's permanently incoporeal and invisible) you could call it President Obama with much the same effect.

    you win!

    tastydonuts on
    “I used to draw, hard to admit that I used to draw...”
  • YesNoMuYesNoMu Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    REG Rysk wrote: »
    Yesnomu does a ton, and is definitely the right class fit for my group. A leader that sub-defenders, if you will, but I feel like the conjuration is doing too much. I suppose I feel part of that does tie into other conjurations and how dependent on their owners actions to do anything. Maybe I'm just prejudiced against bears. It's that player-in-chief article....DAMN YOU SHELLY MAZZANOBLE!
    Heh, maybe I'll flavor it as a Will-O'-Wisp, and then you'll let it fly.

    Anyway, if you feel like it's mechanically overpowered, that's more serious than a flavor issue. Let's talk about it, what do you feel is too powerful? You've mentioned

    -Not provoking with movement
    -Spirit's Shield granting HP as an effect
    -Not being targeted by area effects.
    -EDIT: And of course, the whole "not having to be supported by the ground, so it can float" thing.

    Anything else?

    YesNoMu on
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This discussion has been closed.