So other than arenajunkies.com are there any other sites I can visit to get an idea of where my stats should be? I am not decked out in the best gear (yet...I hope) but I am curious for example the MP5 value of resto shamans in 3's, I am working towards 1k resil but beyond that I am not sure where to slot gems or what enchants to get. Not all my questions are for resto shamans so I figure that'd be the fastest way to educate myself.
Back on the topic of stunlocking, whoever is stunlocking you... how?
I have PvE daggers, the exalted ICC ring, a death's choice, and the rest is pvp gear. I sit at 900ish resil and about 4600 AP, and I can't stunlock anyone that has that sort of resil. You would probably be lucky for me to get you to 50% before you pop out and just heal to full. Healers are what I hate the most. Sure they can't kill me, but fuck I can't kill them either, and eventually someone else is going to come along and kill me.
Back on the topic of stunlocking, whoever is stunlocking you... how?
I have PvE daggers, the exalted ICC ring, a death's choice, and the rest is pvp gear. I sit at 900ish resil and about 4600 AP, and I can't stunlock anyone that has that sort of resil. You would probably be lucky for me to get you to 50% before you pop out and just heal to full. Healers are what I hate the most. Sure they can't kill me, but fuck I can't kill them either, and eventually someone else is going to come along and kill me.
This situation you describe is the ideal. The healer should not be able to kill you, but you, as a single attacker, should not be able to kill them (or fully lock them down) either. Otherwise, if another attacker joins you, the healer is going to die before their support can even help. Two attackers should be able to kill a healer, but not so quickly that there's no chance for survival.
It should be a deadlock between one healer and one attacker. The problem is that this is not the case right now (largely due to gear variance). I don't doubt that it's a difficult thing to balance, but if perfect balance is not feasible, I'd prefer they leaned in the direction of longer fights (healers living longer) than shorter fights (healers dying quicker). I say this having played both healer and attacker. It's not especially fun to just obliterate a healer before they can do anything, nor is it fun to be the target in that situation.
The problem with healers living long is that MS and Mana Drains are very important.
Honestly, MS is important not matter what. They really need to nerf it to 20% or just get rid of it. You either rely on an MS class or need the insane burst/CC that Blizzard doesn't like.
I see no inherent problem with MS and mana drains being important. Boring, yes, but not problematic. Everyone should have some way to counter healers, but there needs to be more variety than just YOUR HEALS ARE HALF AS EFFECTIVE NOW, HAVE A NICE DAY. There are already a decent number of abilities to allow for that variety, but most of them don't get to see use because of how fast PvP moves right now. It needs to slow down first, and then more counters to healers can be added if necessary.
I see no inherent problem with MS and mana drains being important. Boring, yes, but not problematic. Everyone should have some way to counter healers, but there needs to be more variety than just YOUR HEALS ARE HALF AS EFFECTIVE NOW, HAVE A NICE DAY. There are already a decent number of abilities to allow for that variety, but most of them don't get to see use because of how fast PvP moves right now. It needs to slow down first, and then more counters to healers can be added if necessary.
The tremendously silly thing in my opinion would be that if you let MS fall off for half a second, I can full heal with one spell. A 10% healing effectiveness reduction does hardly anything when you're fighting classes with no MS. And classes with no MS can burst so hard, that it doesn't matter anyway.
My 1050 resilience druid still gets crit for 8k+ by chaos bolts, conflags, and lava bursts. Bursty comps are ridiculous and cheeseball.
I see no inherent problem with MS and mana drains being important. Boring, yes, but not problematic. Everyone should have some way to counter healers, but there needs to be more variety than just YOUR HEALS ARE HALF AS EFFECTIVE NOW, HAVE A NICE DAY. There are already a decent number of abilities to allow for that variety, but most of them don't get to see use because of how fast PvP moves right now. It needs to slow down first, and then more counters to healers can be added if necessary.
You see no problem with a trivially-applied ability being able to reduce a character's role's effectiveness by half?
I agree with Rorus. There's just no reasonable way to balance healers around design goals like not requiring an MS effect to kill people, not having huge burstfest gib fights, having classes with a 50% healing debuff, and allowing healers a reasonable chance to survive an even fight.
Well, I didn't mean Mortal Strike itself, because that particular ability is problematic. It can be kept up 100% of the time with minimal effort and has no real counter, aside from perhaps Power Word: Shield. I was referring to Mortal Strike-like effects in general, things which reduce healing effectiveness. Those are fine, as long as they require thought to apply.
I don't see what's wrong with requiring healing debuffs to kill people, as long as everyone has access to those debuffs and they're counterable. The problem right now is threefold: first, not everyone has those debuffs; second, most of them are not counterable in a reasonable fashion; third, even if everyone had them and they were counterable, there's too much burst damage flying around for those counters to be used. That third issue might be caused by the first one, since the classes which don't have a healing debuff instead have massive damage to compensate.
But what are the other MS effects? Wound Poison, which is spam applied by a rogue attacking you, [Fury Talent whose name I don't recall], which passively and quickly stacks to 2 for equivalence to MS, and Aimed Shot, which is an instant cast fired on (8s) cooldown by any PvP speced hunter. There's no thought to any of these, including MS, as they all get used passively or on cooldown as part of normal damage. They're all basically just ("is this class attacking something"? Target has MS : Target doesn't have MS) for you ternary operator nerds.
The only one that can even be dispelled typically has 30% dispel resistance and is reapplied with ease anyway.
I don't see what's wrong with requiring healing debuffs to kill people, as long as everyone has access to those debuffs and they're counterable. The problem right now is threefold: first, not everyone has those debuffs; second, most of them are not counterable in a reasonable fashion; third, even if everyone had them and they were counterable, there's too much burst damage flying around for those counters to be used. That third issue might be caused by the first one, since the classes which don't have a healing debuff instead have massive damage to compensate.
Anyway, if every viable PvP spec needs such an effect and they all have to be changed radically to be a decision/counterable, then yeah there's pretty much something wrong with the base concept in the first place.
I can understand temporary healing debuffs, especially in a Cataclysm metagame where filling HP to full will require a ton of mana and games are (ideally) slower HP races where healing delays the inevitable. An MS effect would be similar to CCing the healer and give you time to pull ahead in the race. It'd be too powerful if active all the time, however, and if it's required to Arena then it should be a simple rule like the current -10%.
Temporary, sure, but not a single one of the current MS effects is even close to that, which means they'd "all have to be changed radically to be a decision/counterable."
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
edited February 2010
I think "they'd all have to be changed radically to be a decision/counterable" is what most people would like to happen to MS effects.
Dunno, my paladin isn't particularly geared and there are many DPS classes I can literally outheal until the servers reset. Did a 2v2 game against a holy pally / DK team and I just ran away from the DK spamming cleanse and using holy shock + sacred shield to keep me up. The DK and holy paladin both nova'd together and managed to get me to 30% health before an aura mastered holy light restored me to full.
Not saying that as evidence that a holy paladin needs MS or a death knight needs MS, but some classes, specs, and PvP fights are pretty explicitly designed around very dangerous mortal strike effects. I do not think people would enjoy current PvP if mortal strike debuffs didn't exist.
Hopefully the role healing and mortal strike plays in PvP is refined for cataclysm. I'd love to see MS as a decision, not a reward for bringing a certain class or spec. "I'll use MS now because I need this healing debuff" instead of "my important attack inflicts this healing debuff by default."
That's because healers NEED such massive healing or else they'd be rendered obsolete in the bursty environment. Unless you have CC and good burst, downing a healer 1v1 will not be easy.
"I'll use MS now because I need this healing debuff"
Only thing I can think of is to make it a limited duration debuff attached to a longer duration cooldown (example: it lasts 10 seconds but is on a 60 second cooldown).
And while that sounds good by first thought, it seems flawed in hindsight. While it does make the decision more strategic, it also puts it at the whim of being potentially easily countered and thus unavailable again until much later in the fight.
Dunno, my paladin isn't particularly geared and there are many DPS classes I can literally outheal until the servers reset. Did a 2v2 game against a holy pally / DK team and I just ran away from the DK spamming cleanse and using holy shock + sacred shield to keep me up. The DK and holy paladin both nova'd together and managed to get me to 30% health before an aura mastered holy light restored me to full.
Not saying that as evidence that a holy paladin needs MS or a death knight needs MS, but some classes, specs, and PvP fights are pretty explicitly designed around very dangerous mortal strike effects. I do not think people would enjoy current PvP if mortal strike debuffs didn't exist.
Uh, you're talking dps/heal vs. dps/heal in 2v2, which for three years has almost invariably been a battle of the mana bars. That's part of why Blizzard is phasing out 2v2. Nothing is really designed around it anymore.
Dunno, my paladin isn't particularly geared and there are many DPS classes I can literally outheal until the servers reset. Did a 2v2 game against a holy pally / DK team and I just ran away from the DK spamming cleanse and using holy shock + sacred shield to keep me up. The DK and holy paladin both nova'd together and managed to get me to 30% health before an aura mastered holy light restored me to full.
Not saying that as evidence that a holy paladin needs MS or a death knight needs MS, but some classes, specs, and PvP fights are pretty explicitly designed around very dangerous mortal strike effects. I do not think people would enjoy current PvP if mortal strike debuffs didn't exist.
Uh, you're talking dps/heal vs. dps/heal in 2v2, which for three years has almost invariably been a battle of the mana bars. That's part of why Blizzard is phasing out 2v2. Nothing is really designed around it anymore.
No, that scenario wasn't a battle of the mana bars. The DPS couldn't do enough damage to me to actually run me out of mana, passive regeneration and use of divine plea kept me full for the entire match. The only way for that DPS to kill me would have been for me to seriously screw up or disconnect. If it was a battle of the mana bars running out of mana at some point would have been an issue.
And that's why some classes need MS effects and why PvP is balanced around some classes having that debuff. Outhealing a hunter without aimed shot would be really easy! A warrior without mortal strike wouldn't even dent a healer. PvP without MS right now would be pretty terrible, I imagine you'd see warlock / holy paladin / disc priest pretty regularly.
I'm all for both phasing out 2v2 and redesigning mortal strike, but you'd also need to radically redesign healing to compensate. Current PvP without MS would be remarkably boring.
There could have been a gear differential factor too. There are too many variables, and using 2v2 as an example of anything is pointless. You can have a two-healer comp in 2v2 and probably overcome a dps/heal team even with MS.
Arguing "PvP without MS right now" makes no sense, because it's an argument that MS effects would just be stripped and then Blizzard would sit back, arms folded, smiling smugly. If MS effects were removed, healing could be adjusted more via the global nerf. Their entire existence is part of why healing has to be "too good" without them around, because otherwise it would be hopelessly weak when someone rolls in with MS.
Arguing "PvP without MS right now" makes no sense, because it's an argument that MS effects would just be stripped and then Blizzard would sit back, arms folded, smiling smugly. If MS effects were removed, healing could be adjusted more via the global nerf. Their entire existence is part of why healing has to be "too good" without them around, because otherwise it would be hopelessly weak when someone rolls in with MS.
You'd need to radically redesign PvP to remove MS effects as they exist right now. Which will probably happen with Cataclysm, but you can't really just say "Aimed Shot, Mortal Strike, Wound Poison: GONE! Healing now reduced 20%!" and expect things to balance out. Some comps or classes rely on MS, some comps or classes don't have access to MS at all and are still pretty powerful.
We already have long cooldowns that are easily countered. Really, there SHOULDN'T be a cooldown that you have no answer to.
Not entirely sure what you're going for here.
A cooldown being countered, even easily, isn't always a bad thing.
Ah. Well, I merely was commenting that making MS yet another counterable cooldown doesn't necessarily mean it'll be better designed. But now I see what you were going for.
To clarify: cooldowns should require a degree of strategy. That can mean pressuring your opponent so that their counter isn't a option or forcing the counter to be used on something more trivial.
This is why I hate cooldowns like Bladestorm or (to a lesser extent) The Beast Within as they make the person entirely immune to CC.
You'd need to radically redesign PvP to remove MS effects as they exist right now. Which will probably happen with Cataclysm, but you can't really just say "Aimed Shot, Mortal Strike, Wound Poison: GONE! Healing now reduced 20%!" and expect things to balance out. Some comps or classes rely on MS, some comps or classes don't have access to MS at all and are still pretty powerful.
Or you could just tone them down so they aren't so extreme (like the Frost/Shadow MS-lites) for a season until Cataclysm lets you do something more significant.
"Some comps or classes rely on MS." Well no shit. They have to because of where damage/healing is right now.
"Some [...] classes don't have access to MS at all and are still pretty powerful." Yeah, because most of them are involved in comps with a class that is providing MS. The completely MS-less comps that are powerful are few and I believe mostly effective due to chained CC + world of burst.
You'd need to radically redesign PvP to remove MS effects as they exist right now. Which will probably happen with Cataclysm, but you can't really just say "Aimed Shot, Mortal Strike, Wound Poison: GONE! Healing now reduced 20%!" and expect things to balance out. Some comps or classes rely on MS, some comps or classes don't have access to MS at all and are still pretty powerful.
Or you could just tone them down so they aren't so extreme (like the Frost/Shadow MS-lites) for a season until Cataclysm lets you do something more significant.
"Some comps or classes rely on MS." Well no shit. They have to because of where damage/healing is right now.
"Some [...] classes don't have access to MS at all and are still pretty powerful." Yeah, because most of them are involved in comps with a class that is providing MS. The completely MS-less comps that are powerful are few and I believe mostly effective due to chained CC + world of burst.
So that would weaken any class with an MS effect and buff any comp that went without an MS effect.
So you'd like to see more chained CC + world of burst comps? Or you'd like to see more double healer 3v3 comps?
You'd need to radically redesign PvP to remove MS effects as they exist right now. Which will probably happen with Cataclysm, but you can't really just say "Aimed Shot, Mortal Strike, Wound Poison: GONE! Healing now reduced 20%!" and expect things to balance out.
You'd need to radically redesign PvP to remove MS effects as they exist right now. Which will probably happen with Cataclysm, but you can't really just say "Aimed Shot, Mortal Strike, Wound Poison: GONE! Healing now reduced 20%!" and expect things to balance out. Some comps or classes rely on MS, some comps or classes don't have access to MS at all and are still pretty powerful.
Or you could just tone them down so they aren't so extreme (like the Frost/Shadow MS-lites) for a season until Cataclysm lets you do something more significant.
"Some comps or classes rely on MS." Well no shit. They have to because of where damage/healing is right now.
"Some [...] classes don't have access to MS at all and are still pretty powerful." Yeah, because most of them are involved in comps with a class that is providing MS. The completely MS-less comps that are powerful are few and I believe mostly effective due to chained CC + world of burst.
So that would weaken any class with an MS effect and buff any comp that went without an MS effect.
So you'd like to see more chained CC + world of burst comps? Or you'd like to see more double healer 3v3 comps?
Frankly, arena is totally faggoted up already, as is PvP this expansion, so yeah, fuck 'em. I don't think abilities that turn a class into (essentially) half a class are anything but a penny on the railroad tracks to decent PvP.
Also, I've argued before (not lately) about how problematic chain CC is, and I think shared diminishing returns, or DRs in general, need to be more harsh. So ideally in my "fuck MS" world, you're not going to be stunnedd, then blinded, then feared, then silenced, etc.
Also, I've argued before (not lately) about how problematic chain CC is, and I think shared diminishing returns, or DRs in general, need to be more harsh. So ideally in my "fuck MS" world, you're not going to be stunnedd, then blinded, then feared, then silenced, etc.
I've been of the opinion, since the game's original release, that Bliz's two sided opinion on CC has been complete garbage.
On one side of the coin: "We don't want players to lose control of their character." (The original argument against Taunt in PvP)
On the other side: You can be forced to run around like a moron for 6 seconds, stunned in place with no recourse for the same time, etc. That's control of your character? Really? Because it seems more like someone else controlling it...
On one side of the coin: "We don't want players to lose control of their character." (The original argument against Taunt in PvP)
On the other side: You can be forced to run around like a moron for 6 seconds, stunned in place with no recourse for the same time, etc. That's control of your character? Really? Because it seems more like someone else controlling it...
Or better yet, Mind Control. ;-P
Although, aside from jumping people off of high places, it doesn't seem like it gets a lot of use like your more mundane CCs.
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You seem to be nerdraging over this. I find that strange.
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You seem to be mistaking calling a spade a spade (or, specifically, calling design flaws design flaws) for nerdraging.
I have PvE daggers, the exalted ICC ring, a death's choice, and the rest is pvp gear. I sit at 900ish resil and about 4600 AP, and I can't stunlock anyone that has that sort of resil. You would probably be lucky for me to get you to 50% before you pop out and just heal to full. Healers are what I hate the most. Sure they can't kill me, but fuck I can't kill them either, and eventually someone else is going to come along and kill me.
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This situation you describe is the ideal. The healer should not be able to kill you, but you, as a single attacker, should not be able to kill them (or fully lock them down) either. Otherwise, if another attacker joins you, the healer is going to die before their support can even help. Two attackers should be able to kill a healer, but not so quickly that there's no chance for survival.
It should be a deadlock between one healer and one attacker. The problem is that this is not the case right now (largely due to gear variance). I don't doubt that it's a difficult thing to balance, but if perfect balance is not feasible, I'd prefer they leaned in the direction of longer fights (healers living longer) than shorter fights (healers dying quicker). I say this having played both healer and attacker. It's not especially fun to just obliterate a healer before they can do anything, nor is it fun to be the target in that situation.
Honestly, MS is important not matter what. They really need to nerf it to 20% or just get rid of it. You either rely on an MS class or need the insane burst/CC that Blizzard doesn't like.
The tremendously silly thing in my opinion would be that if you let MS fall off for half a second, I can full heal with one spell. A 10% healing effectiveness reduction does hardly anything when you're fighting classes with no MS. And classes with no MS can burst so hard, that it doesn't matter anyway.
My 1050 resilience druid still gets crit for 8k+ by chaos bolts, conflags, and lava bursts. Bursty comps are ridiculous and cheeseball.
I agree with Rorus. There's just no reasonable way to balance healers around design goals like not requiring an MS effect to kill people, not having huge burstfest gib fights, having classes with a 50% healing debuff, and allowing healers a reasonable chance to survive an even fight.
I don't see what's wrong with requiring healing debuffs to kill people, as long as everyone has access to those debuffs and they're counterable. The problem right now is threefold: first, not everyone has those debuffs; second, most of them are not counterable in a reasonable fashion; third, even if everyone had them and they were counterable, there's too much burst damage flying around for those counters to be used. That third issue might be caused by the first one, since the classes which don't have a healing debuff instead have massive damage to compensate.
The only one that can even be dispelled typically has 30% dispel resistance and is reapplied with ease anyway.
Anyway, if every viable PvP spec needs such an effect and they all have to be changed radically to be a decision/counterable, then yeah there's pretty much something wrong with the base concept in the first place.
Not saying that as evidence that a holy paladin needs MS or a death knight needs MS, but some classes, specs, and PvP fights are pretty explicitly designed around very dangerous mortal strike effects. I do not think people would enjoy current PvP if mortal strike debuffs didn't exist.
Hopefully the role healing and mortal strike plays in PvP is refined for cataclysm. I'd love to see MS as a decision, not a reward for bringing a certain class or spec. "I'll use MS now because I need this healing debuff" instead of "my important attack inflicts this healing debuff by default."
Only thing I can think of is to make it a limited duration debuff attached to a longer duration cooldown (example: it lasts 10 seconds but is on a 60 second cooldown).
And while that sounds good by first thought, it seems flawed in hindsight. While it does make the decision more strategic, it also puts it at the whim of being potentially easily countered and thus unavailable again until much later in the fight.
Pins!
Not entirely sure what you're going for here.
Pins!
No, that scenario wasn't a battle of the mana bars. The DPS couldn't do enough damage to me to actually run me out of mana, passive regeneration and use of divine plea kept me full for the entire match. The only way for that DPS to kill me would have been for me to seriously screw up or disconnect. If it was a battle of the mana bars running out of mana at some point would have been an issue.
And that's why some classes need MS effects and why PvP is balanced around some classes having that debuff. Outhealing a hunter without aimed shot would be really easy! A warrior without mortal strike wouldn't even dent a healer. PvP without MS right now would be pretty terrible, I imagine you'd see warlock / holy paladin / disc priest pretty regularly.
I'm all for both phasing out 2v2 and redesigning mortal strike, but you'd also need to radically redesign healing to compensate. Current PvP without MS would be remarkably boring.
Arguing "PvP without MS right now" makes no sense, because it's an argument that MS effects would just be stripped and then Blizzard would sit back, arms folded, smiling smugly. If MS effects were removed, healing could be adjusted more via the global nerf. Their entire existence is part of why healing has to be "too good" without them around, because otherwise it would be hopelessly weak when someone rolls in with MS.
You'd need to radically redesign PvP to remove MS effects as they exist right now. Which will probably happen with Cataclysm, but you can't really just say "Aimed Shot, Mortal Strike, Wound Poison: GONE! Healing now reduced 20%!" and expect things to balance out. Some comps or classes rely on MS, some comps or classes don't have access to MS at all and are still pretty powerful.
Ah. Well, I merely was commenting that making MS yet another counterable cooldown doesn't necessarily mean it'll be better designed. But now I see what you were going for.
Pins!
This is why I hate cooldowns like Bladestorm or (to a lesser extent) The Beast Within as they make the person entirely immune to CC.
"Some comps or classes rely on MS." Well no shit. They have to because of where damage/healing is right now.
"Some [...] classes don't have access to MS at all and are still pretty powerful." Yeah, because most of them are involved in comps with a class that is providing MS. The completely MS-less comps that are powerful are few and I believe mostly effective due to chained CC + world of burst.
So that would weaken any class with an MS effect and buff any comp that went without an MS effect.
So you'd like to see more chained CC + world of burst comps? Or you'd like to see more double healer 3v3 comps?
Also, I've argued before (not lately) about how problematic chain CC is, and I think shared diminishing returns, or DRs in general, need to be more harsh. So ideally in my "fuck MS" world, you're not going to be stunnedd, then blinded, then feared, then silenced, etc.
I've been of the opinion, since the game's original release, that Bliz's two sided opinion on CC has been complete garbage.
On one side of the coin: "We don't want players to lose control of their character." (The original argument against Taunt in PvP)
On the other side: You can be forced to run around like a moron for 6 seconds, stunned in place with no recourse for the same time, etc. That's control of your character? Really? Because it seems more like someone else controlling it...
Pins!
Or better yet, Mind Control. ;-P
Although, aside from jumping people off of high places, it doesn't seem like it gets a lot of use like your more mundane CCs.