If they implemented player taunts, they would also have to implement collision detection I think. Otherwise the whole mechanic just doesn't make sense.
rehtonAesoohC on
Was wowed by Rift so I'm trying that now.
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
edited February 2010
I don't see why it wouldn't make sense just because of the lack of collision detection.
I do agree with the decision not to have taunts work on players, though. It'd mostly just be an extra annoyance, and then you'd just force everyone who PvPs to have to make a /targetlasttarget macro to mindlessly click/hotkey when they get taunted.
I do agree with the decision not to have taunts work on players, though. It'd mostly just be an extra annoyance, and then you'd just force everyone who PvPs to have to make a /targetlasttarget macro to mindlessly click/hotkey when they get taunted.
It actually makes plenty of sense:
Tank: "Let us taunt in PvP!"
Blizzard: "We don't like abilities that remove control from the player."
Tank: "lol but what about fear / stun / polymorph / etc!"
If you think PvP is too focused on CC already, or you don't like abilities that remove control from a player, there's really no reason to add another CC type ability (taunt effects) to what is currently available. "Man, there's way too much CC already in the game, you know what it needs? A NEW FORM OF CC!"
Its nice to see tanking trees getting some PvP love, PvPing with a protection spec is just too much fun.
Yeah, I always did PVP in my ret spec, but once forgot to change from tank spec once upon queueing up for AB. For some reason, it didn't let me switch, and I didn't die once throughout the whole BG. I realized then how much better Prot spec is for PVP.
I do agree with the decision not to have taunts work on players, though. It'd mostly just be an extra annoyance, and then you'd just force everyone who PvPs to have to make a /targetlasttarget macro to mindlessly click/hotkey when they get taunted.
I tend to think that Intervene would, for the most part, sufficiently handle any situation in PvP where a "tank" would try and interrupt some attacker going after his teammate. So, in reality, I would argue the taunt situation is under control anyway.
I only used Taunt as an example due to the fact that it demonstrates a major contradiction in Bliz's philosophy. They can't sit there and tell me a forced target switch is "loss of player control" when there are far more nefarious methods for taking away control of my character that Bliz embraces for PvP competition.
And to Blizz, CC isn't loss of player control, it's your player being controlled. You can break CC a majority of ways, but if Taunting forced your target to be someone else then you can't counter it and you can't do anything about it after the fact.
If you want to argue about Blizz being hypocrites though, use Feign Death's target drop and Distract's forced stop-and-look instead since those are both uncounterable and make you lose control of your character in much the same way taunt changing your target to the taunter would.
If you could trinket/ice block* out of a taunt, it'd be as breakable as some other CC's. Obviously it's mostly a moot point, since you can't be taunted, but that'd all it'd take to get the same classification.
Anyhow, I think taunt is one of those things they'd do well to make it act a bit differently if it was to be made usable in PVP. Something like reducing damage (or hit chance *wink* *wink*) to everything but the taunter by X%. Obviously it'd be a significantly weaker ability in pvp, but that's okay.
* You can ice block and bubble yourself out of things like cyclone, right?
End on
I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
And to Blizz, CC isn't loss of player control, it's your player being controlled. You can break CC a majority of ways, but if Taunting forced your target to be someone else then you can't counter it and you can't do anything about it after the fact.
If you want to argue about Blizz being hypocrites though, use Feign Death's target drop and Distract's forced stop-and-look instead since those are both uncounterable and make you lose control of your character in much the same way taunt changing your target to the taunter would.
I don't see any reason why you wouldn't be able to counter taunt the same way you counter FD: Retarget your intended target. Unless you are implying that taunt should force you to target the tank for X number of seconds, which I would say is a bad design. Intelligently forcing your opponent into targeting a damage sponge (or, conversely with FD, lose targeting on your desired opponent) should be an immediate thing that can be countered immediately by going back to your intended target.
That being said, in regards to Warriors and being able to taunt, it's a moot point now. I'm of the opinion that Intervene pretty much accomplishes the desired effect. As for any other tank, I don't really have any argument at the moment. The original taunt issue harks back to the very early days of PvP, long before any other class would've realistically been having a discussion on whether or not they should be able to taunt in PvP as well. I'm complaining that the original argument ("We don't want players to lose control of their character") followed by the eventual design goals that went into PvP completely betray Blizzard's justification against Taunt in PvP.
Yes, trinket is pretty much the only thing that breaks Cyclone. That generated a lot of tears in TBC days, but I think the crying has gone away since druids haven't really been great in PvP this expansion.
forty on
Officially the unluckiest CCG player ever.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited February 2010
The number one concept for taunt in PvP is to cause a target to do less damage other targets for the duration of the taunt.
It wouldn't make the person attack the tank, it would make them do less damage to everyone but the tank.
Hence no losing character control and still having the effect of a 'taunt.'
Heck, for balance sake, you could even make it so they'd do more damage to the tank or split damage with whoever the person is attacking. There are many ways to implement it, except that blizzard has an issue with creating a PvP/PvE ability dichotomy, which is foolish in my opinion.
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
The number one concept for taunt in PvP is to cause a target to do less damage other targets for the duration of the taunt.
It wouldn't make the person attack the tank, it would make them do less damage to everyone but the tank.
Hence no losing character control and still having the effect of a 'taunt.'
Heck, for balance sake, you could even make it so they'd do more damage to the tank or split damage with whoever the person is attacking. There are many ways to implement it, except that blizzard has an issue with creating a PvP/PvE ability dichotomy, which is foolish in my opinion.
I can understand why they don't really what spells to have different effects in different areas of the game. That being said I am not sure I agree with it, but the fact that many people don't understand all the intricacies of their abilities normally (which aren't all that complex to begin with) adding the fact that they would have different functionality just by stepping into a BG, arena, or even when getting ganked would probably create more headaches than it is worth.
I have not seen a blue say that is the reason, so I can only assume. Can anyone clarify what the actual reason is? I am now curious.
That is my assumption as well. People are already bad enough with three basic abilities (*cough*OCULUS), nevermind all of the abilities of their class, that making abilities work differently in different environments would get them endless complaints. Well, more endless than is normal.
Some direct evidence of this, which they actually confirmed, was Exorcism when it was unusable in PvP. I remember a Blizzard post stating that they were unhappy having Exorcism work that way, and indeed their solution was to just change the ability entirely. They can't really do that with something as fundamental as Taunt though.
It's a matter of degrees. While changing the numbers for PvP is one thing (this CC lasts 10 seconds against players) adding or removing functions is another (YOU CAN'T USE THIS). You end up with double the skills because the variance between PvP and PvE is so vast. Alter stuff enough and this will eventually affect skilled players who may be settled with using skill X after a weekend of PvP, only to fuck up because it has application Y in PvE.
Besides, the two prot specs are actually quite viable in PvP right now without taunts working on players (and you can still use them to taunt pets, so they're not useless).
Moreover, there would also be the concern of giving too much power to non-tank specs that have taunts: DKs and ret paladins especially, but even DPS warriors can drop to defensive stance to disarm (and thus also taunt), and druids could even switch to bear to throw out a growl, although that's probably not a big concern.
I have to disagree and say the number one taunt in PvP is to play a warlock. I get focused on so hard every time I BG its insane. My tree druid who is quite obviously a healer, being that he's a fucking tree, has never assist trained on as hard and fast as my warlock. It's like I throw one dot and and these fucks are running "OH SHIT WARLOCK!" addons that auto target me and /follow me to make sure the warlock dies.
Least, that's how it feels.
EWom on
Whether they find a life there or not, I think Jupiter should be called an enemy planet.
So many times I've seen 5+ people wailing on an Iceblock waiting for the mage to pop out, while the rest of the mage's team gets objectives.
I believe that's called the, "OOOH, shiney!" effect.
Oh god, I need to find the BG cliche post thing, pls hold....
Edit: Here we go, post #37. This drink could use some ice - Why else hack on a giant ice chunk that has a tasty mage center while the mage watches, in cold safe comfort, his teammate capping a flag a few feet behidnd you. These are my favourite type of player. Especially when you get like 5 of them wasting their time on you while their friends are getting killed nearby. Mage tank FTW.
Me and another rogue in my guild are looking to go double rogue for shits and giggles in arena. He wants to do the regular mut/prep although we will likely settle into double combat KS for fun.
We really don't care tooo much about rating, but... well... we're not the kind of people who like to lose. Is it viable?
I have to disagree and say the number one taunt in PvP is to play a warlock. I get focused on so hard every time I BG its insane. My tree druid who is quite obviously a healer, being that he's a fucking tree, has never assist trained on as hard and fast as my warlock. It's like I throw one dot and and these fucks are running "OH SHIT WARLOCK!" addons that auto target me and /follow me to make sure the warlock dies.
Least, that's how it feels.
That is a result of how Warlocks were outdoor raid bosses for awhile.
Me and another rogue in my guild are looking to go double rogue for shits and giggles in arena. He wants to do the regular mut/prep although we will likely settle into double combat KS for fun.
We really don't care tooo much about rating, but... well... we're not the kind of people who like to lose. Is it viable?
It was very viable in TBC. I'm not sure about Wrath, but I'm guessing double dps is weaker than what it was. I know Mage/Rogue isn't bad.
Double DPS is fine. Killingeensp isn't that good against targets with high resilience though, especially if they are close enough that you jump between 2 people, you'll probably want to run mutilate.
Me and another rogue in my guild are looking to go double rogue for shits and giggles in arena. He wants to do the regular mut/prep although we will likely settle into double combat KS for fun.
We really don't care tooo much about rating, but... well... we're not the kind of people who like to lose. Is it viable?
Double rogue will shit on some comps or get shit on by others. It's kind of "free win" or "auto loss."
So I have a question about Spell Penetration. I am trying out some PVP on my shaman, both arena and BG's as elemental spec and I'm wondering how much Spell Pen I should be gemming. I am still gearing up, at the getting focused and raped in seconds stage. It seems that it's probably a stat that I shouldn't ignore completely, but I'm not sure. Any advice?
Jimbo on
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GrobianWhat's on sale?Pliers!Registered Userregular
edited March 2010
1 point of spell penetration negates 1 point of resistance.
Mark of the Wild (talented) gives 75 to all resistances. The specific resistance buffs (auras, aspect of the wild, totems) give 130.
For BGs I'd say 0 spell pen is enough, because nobody ever uses any of those buffs (except MotW at the start).
So, in theory, 130 Spell Pen & 4% hit would be ideal?
Right now I'm at 20 Spell Pen & 2.9% hit (Disc priest w/25k heal, 20k mana 1227 resilience I believe self buffed)
I've been BG'ing a lot recently and DK's (Diseases') and paladins'(specifically their bubble) seem to be resisting my dispels the most. Just wondering what I can do to overcome that a little easier.
GrobianWhat's on sale?Pliers!Registered Userregular
edited March 2010
Priest dispels are holy and there is no specific holy resistance buff, I think. So you'd never need more than 75 for MotW if that even affects holy resistance.
You could use more than 4% hit, as racials give an additional miss chance (i.e. Blood Elf +2% miss chance for spells).
Also there are talents that make buffs or debuffs harder to cleanse and I'm not sure if those are affected by hit, spell pen or ot at all.
So the Hellscream server seems like it's becoming more and more broken. I still need to do VoAIDS25 this reset, and alliance owned Wintergrasp for all of Sunday. It was just failed offense after failed offense.
I'm not really looking forward to the Wintergrasp sequel in Cataclysm.
Hey guys, quick question: Is ret a reasonably viable spec for arenas these days, or is it a waste of time to even try? I picked up some pieces from voa and badges to get crit capped so I could be a silly goose and 2h tank heroics, and now I'm tempted to find some teammates and do some arenas
Also, do I have to grind honor or can I do reasonably well with just the stuff purchased with badges? I don't mind doing a couple of BGs, but chain grinding BGs 20 hours a week is probably the worst thing in WoW
Also, sorry for not searching the thread, but it won't let me search for "ret" and something tells me that people aren't going to type out "retribution paladin" every time. I wish somebody would add a list of allowed 3 letter search terms, like "wow", "dps", etc
Posts
Nonsense!
It actually makes plenty of sense:
Tank: "Let us taunt in PvP!"
Blizzard: "We don't like abilities that remove control from the player."
Tank: "lol but what about fear / stun / polymorph / etc!"
If you think PvP is too focused on CC already, or you don't like abilities that remove control from a player, there's really no reason to add another CC type ability (taunt effects) to what is currently available. "Man, there's way too much CC already in the game, you know what it needs? A NEW FORM OF CC!"
Its nice to see tanking trees getting some PvP love, PvPing with a protection spec is just too much fun.
I tend to think that Intervene would, for the most part, sufficiently handle any situation in PvP where a "tank" would try and interrupt some attacker going after his teammate. So, in reality, I would argue the taunt situation is under control anyway.
I only used Taunt as an example due to the fact that it demonstrates a major contradiction in Bliz's philosophy. They can't sit there and tell me a forced target switch is "loss of player control" when there are far more nefarious methods for taking away control of my character that Bliz embraces for PvP competition.
Pins!
And to Blizz, CC isn't loss of player control, it's your player being controlled. You can break CC a majority of ways, but if Taunting forced your target to be someone else then you can't counter it and you can't do anything about it after the fact.
If you want to argue about Blizz being hypocrites though, use Feign Death's target drop and Distract's forced stop-and-look instead since those are both uncounterable and make you lose control of your character in much the same way taunt changing your target to the taunter would.
Anyhow, I think taunt is one of those things they'd do well to make it act a bit differently if it was to be made usable in PVP. Something like reducing damage (or hit chance *wink* *wink*) to everything but the taunter by X%. Obviously it'd be a significantly weaker ability in pvp, but that's okay.
* You can ice block and bubble yourself out of things like cyclone, right?
I don't see any reason why you wouldn't be able to counter taunt the same way you counter FD: Retarget your intended target. Unless you are implying that taunt should force you to target the tank for X number of seconds, which I would say is a bad design. Intelligently forcing your opponent into targeting a damage sponge (or, conversely with FD, lose targeting on your desired opponent) should be an immediate thing that can be countered immediately by going back to your intended target.
That being said, in regards to Warriors and being able to taunt, it's a moot point now. I'm of the opinion that Intervene pretty much accomplishes the desired effect. As for any other tank, I don't really have any argument at the moment. The original taunt issue harks back to the very early days of PvP, long before any other class would've realistically been having a discussion on whether or not they should be able to taunt in PvP as well. I'm complaining that the original argument ("We don't want players to lose control of their character") followed by the eventual design goals that went into PvP completely betray Blizzard's justification against Taunt in PvP.
Pins!
I know you can't bubble out of it.
Pins!
Pins!
It wouldn't make the person attack the tank, it would make them do less damage to everyone but the tank.
Hence no losing character control and still having the effect of a 'taunt.'
Heck, for balance sake, you could even make it so they'd do more damage to the tank or split damage with whoever the person is attacking. There are many ways to implement it, except that blizzard has an issue with creating a PvP/PvE ability dichotomy, which is foolish in my opinion.
I can understand why they don't really what spells to have different effects in different areas of the game. That being said I am not sure I agree with it, but the fact that many people don't understand all the intricacies of their abilities normally (which aren't all that complex to begin with) adding the fact that they would have different functionality just by stepping into a BG, arena, or even when getting ganked would probably create more headaches than it is worth.
I have not seen a blue say that is the reason, so I can only assume. Can anyone clarify what the actual reason is? I am now curious.
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Some direct evidence of this, which they actually confirmed, was Exorcism when it was unusable in PvP. I remember a Blizzard post stating that they were unhappy having Exorcism work that way, and indeed their solution was to just change the ability entirely. They can't really do that with something as fundamental as Taunt though.
Moreover, there would also be the concern of giving too much power to non-tank specs that have taunts: DKs and ret paladins especially, but even DPS warriors can drop to defensive stance to disarm (and thus also taunt), and druids could even switch to bear to throw out a growl, although that's probably not a big concern.
So many times I've seen 5+ people wailing on an Iceblock waiting for the mage to pop out, while the rest of the mage's team gets objectives.
I believe that's called the, "OOOH, shiney!" effect.
Pins!
Least, that's how it feels.
Oh god, I need to find the BG cliche post thing, pls hold....
Edit: Here we go, post #37. This drink could use some ice - Why else hack on a giant ice chunk that has a tasty mage center while the mage watches, in cold safe comfort, his teammate capping a flag a few feet behidnd you. These are my favourite type of player. Especially when you get like 5 of them wasting their time on you while their friends are getting killed nearby. Mage tank FTW.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=54889160&sid=1
We really don't care tooo much about rating, but... well... we're not the kind of people who like to lose. Is it viable?
That is a result of how Warlocks were outdoor raid bosses for awhile.
Double rogue will shit on some comps or get shit on by others. It's kind of "free win" or "auto loss."
Mark of the Wild (talented) gives 75 to all resistances. The specific resistance buffs (auras, aspect of the wild, totems) give 130.
For BGs I'd say 0 spell pen is enough, because nobody ever uses any of those buffs (except MotW at the start).
So, in theory, 130 Spell Pen & 4% hit would be ideal?
Right now I'm at 20 Spell Pen & 2.9% hit (Disc priest w/25k heal, 20k mana 1227 resilience I believe self buffed)
I've been BG'ing a lot recently and DK's (Diseases') and paladins'(specifically their bubble) seem to be resisting my dispels the most. Just wondering what I can do to overcome that a little easier.
Steam Me
Steam Me
You could use more than 4% hit, as racials give an additional miss chance (i.e. Blood Elf +2% miss chance for spells).
Also there are talents that make buffs or debuffs harder to cleanse and I'm not sure if those are affected by hit, spell pen or ot at all.
You should get 130 spell pen from jewelry, cloak enchant and maybe some split X/Spell Pen gems.
I'm not really looking forward to the Wintergrasp sequel in Cataclysm.
Also, do I have to grind honor or can I do reasonably well with just the stuff purchased with badges? I don't mind doing a couple of BGs, but chain grinding BGs 20 hours a week is probably the worst thing in WoW
Also, sorry for not searching the thread, but it won't let me search for "ret" and something tells me that people aren't going to type out "retribution paladin" every time. I wish somebody would add a list of allowed 3 letter search terms, like "wow", "dps", etc