Then it makes even less sense, since he was talking about Rated BGs.
In Rated BGs, yeah, you are gonna have to organize a team. That's the whole point.
In normal BGs, it doesn't really matter much. And considering the current system replaced the previous system of groups queuing for BGs only playing other groups queuing for BGs, it seems the point is that normal BGs don't exist so large premade groups can steamroll a bunch of random people. Which sounds good to me.
Some people don't think a system that tells you that 7 people is not the correct number of people to play with is a great system.
Then it makes even less sense, since he was talking about Rated BGs.
In Rated BGs, yeah, you are gonna have to organize a team. That's the whole point.
In normal BGs, it doesn't really matter much. And considering the current system replaced the previous system of groups queuing for BGs only playing other groups queuing for BGs, it seems the point is that normal BGs don't exist so large premade groups can steamroll a bunch of random people. Which sounds good to me.
Some people don't think a system that tells you that 7 people is not the correct number of people to play with is a great system.
You can play with those 7 people just fine as long as you grab some other people and get vaguely organized.
shryke on
0
admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
There's now a system where you PvP, you get points, you spend them on gear to be better at PvP. They occasionally release new content for PvP.
Shit, you can now level almost exclusively through BGs.
What's missing?
If you look at the advancements that have been made in the PvE systems vs the PvP systems there is absolutely no comparison. PvE gets a completely rebuilt 1-60 experience, 61-85 content, and a billion raid dungeons. PvP gets a pittance of BG XP, pre-cap itemization that doesn't work (try to buy low level items with honor... seriously) a few ignored world PvP zones, and what, five BGs?
PvP was never WoW's (or Blizzard's) strong suit, I'm just kind of amazed at how exponentially behind it's stuck.
There's now a system where you PvP, you get points, you spend them on gear to be better at PvP. They occasionally release new content for PvP.
Shit, you can now level almost exclusively through BGs.
What's missing?
If you look at the advancements that have been made in the PvE systems vs the PvP systems there is absolutely no comparison. PvE gets a completely rebuilt 1-60 experience, 61-85 content, and a billion raid dungeons. PvP gets a pittance of BG XP, pre-cap itemization that doesn't work (try to buy low level items with honor... seriously) a few ignored world PvP zones, and what, five BGs?
PvP was never WoW's (or Blizzard's) strong suit, I'm just kind of amazed at how exponentially behind it's stuck.
PvE was rebuilt and redone because there was alot of room and obvious places to go.
PvP ... well, again, what's missing? There needs to be a better way to get gear as you level up through PvP, but what else are you looking for? They are adding more BGs but they are, justifiably, nervous of adding too many or too many that are basically the same.
It's weird because Blizzard is pretty famous for competitive gaming.
What's missing?
-Gear is a mess in the leveling process. Shit isn't expensive, but it's all over the place and I mean that literally. If you want boots, you gotta run your ass to Arathi. If you want A trinket, you gotta go to Org next. Then you hit 60 and there's no new gear beyond that until 68. And that's all locked behind various TBC reps.
-A lack of decent world PvP content. Tol Barad and Wintergrasp are just Battlegrounds that only queue on your realm. This is not a terrible thing, but it's also not really world PvP.
-Refined dueling options. It is retarded that we cannot, at least, set up special dueling rules to mimic Conquest play, and have to go by unspoken rules that not everyone is sure to follow. On top of that, it's silly that we have to wait on cooldowns if we blow them during a duel. Restrict duelists to targeting only each other, and allow any cooldown blown during that duel to reset when the duel ends.
-Timely balance. As Tol Barad shows, Blizzard does not fucking test their shit. If PvE content was in this shape the game would be in ruins.
-No ability to observe or replay specific matches.
-The season method is a goddamn wreck. Seasons need a specific length, not weird shit like the last seasons lasting 37 fucking weeks because they had no new content.
There's also the fact that a lot of shit going in this expansion was suggested by players YEARS ago. Shit that could easily be patched in requires a damn expansion to see the light of day.
It's weird because Blizzard is pretty famous for competitive gaming.
-Timely balance. As Tol Barad shows, Blizzard does not fucking test their shit. If PvE content was in this shape the game would be in ruins.
Eh, depends on your battlegroup and is probably one of those perception things. It always seems like the Horde in my battlegroup have no healers and the Alliance have tons.
Including one memorable WSG where the Alliance had 8 healers and a Prot Warrior and a Mage.
-A lack of decent world PvP content. Tol Barad and Wintergrasp are just Battlegrounds that only queue on your realm. This is not a terrible thing, but it's also not really world PvP.
It is when the battle ends and you rove around ganking the shit out of people doing the dailies.
It's really easy to cap your conquest points for the week in 2v2, like 3 wins. So find someone and get out there and do it.
I wouldn't really be surprised or mind if they lowered the point gain for lower rankings, because its silly easy. I queued up with 2 other dps for a 3v3 arena and got our weekly cap in less than an hour. The competition was not stiff, either.
The thing is, you're going to have to play a lot if you ever want to exceed the base cap. Everyone starts at zero and I doubt the cap will increase a terrible amount if you stay under 1300 or so.
It works this way. If people just play to cap, they will take a month to see their cap increase at all. But they get points without playing a billion games. Nothing sucked more than spending that first week on a hundred games to get within gear ratings.
Ummmm, so there is a cheat or hack in WSG? A few minutes ago I was in OUR flag room and a DK grabbed the flag, within 5 seconds he capped the flag all the way back in their flagroom.
Yes. Some people use some sort of speed or teleport hack, much like if you've ever watched gold spammers zoom to capital cities. All you can do is report him and move on.
That or Blizzard could do some server-side checks... *Cough*
Monsty on
0
GrobianWhat's on sale?Pliers!Registered Userregular
Last cap wins in a tie is fucking bullshit. 15 fucking minutes and we finally cap, we continue defending and attacking, then at 3 minutes left they manage to get an equaliser and turtle with 4 healers in their base. Horde wins.
I haven't won a single game of CTF since TBC was released.
Rami on
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The thing is, you're going to have to play a lot if you ever want to exceed the base cap. Everyone starts at zero and I doubt the cap will increase a terrible amount if you stay under 1300 or so.
It works this way. If people just play to cap, they will take a month to see their cap increase at all. But they get points without playing a billion games. Nothing sucked more than spending that first week on a hundred games to get within gear ratings.
True, but it was slower back in s1 and s2, which didn't use rating req.
I seriously can't get over how awful Tol Barad is. There is no way it was ever played or tested even once before release. No fucking way. It's pretty much the worst thing ever in its current form.
The thing is, you're going to have to play a lot if you ever want to exceed the base cap. Everyone starts at zero and I doubt the cap will increase a terrible amount if you stay under 1300 or so.
It works this way. If people just play to cap, they will take a month to see their cap increase at all. But they get points without playing a billion games. Nothing sucked more than spending that first week on a hundred games to get within gear ratings.
True, but it was slower back in s1 and s2, which didn't use rating req.
I consider that to be a bad thing. A player joining late shouldn't have to suffer to catch up.
I seriously can't get over how awful Tol Barad is. There is no way it was ever played or tested even once before release. No fucking way. It's pretty much the worst thing ever in its current form.
Only if you're attacking.
It's not a bad zone layout I think, but the rules of the match are just terrible.
Yeah, I definitely like the size, aesthetic, etc. Just a small tweak or two to give attackers a chance and it will be enjoyable. Until then, I will loathe it publicly!
I enjoy that the TB dailies prompt actual PvP, with people rallying together to beat the other side out of the area or whatnot. Last night some allies were picking off Horde as they ran in solo for the escort quest. Eventually we all went in at the same time and wiped them out and ended up having like 10 of those dumb escort dudes runnin around.
And I think TB would work with the current rules if the bases were further away. Basically swapping the towers with the bases would help a lot I think.
I think Tol Barad would work if the bases became permanently capped once the attackers get the bar all the way to their side.
This would make destroying the towers important because extended time means it's more likely you'll get all three, and it makes it so that defense actually has to defend and offense actually gets to attack.
Still not perfectly balanced, but it's more fair than the current form. And it favors the offense more than the defense which means it gets to change hands more often, unlike the current setup.
If it favors the offense too much, you can take away their graveyards near the base and only let them use the graveyards at the towers that they have destroyed (or if no tower is destroyed, respawn at the bridge).
I think Tol Barad would work if the bases became permanently capped once the attackers get the bar all the way to their side.
This would make destroying the towers important because extended time means it's more likely you'll get all three, and it makes it so that defense actually has to defend and offense actually gets to attack.
Still not perfectly balanced, but it's more fair than the current form. And it favors the offense more than the defense which means it gets to change hands more often, unlike the current setup.
If it favors the offense too much, you can take away their graveyards near the base and only let them use the graveyards at the towers that they have destroyed (or if no tower is destroyed, respawn at the bridge).
If they permantly capped then Defense would be impossible in it's current setup.
Also, Defending the towers is pointless. All they need is 4-6 people constantly driving the siege tanks to the towers. You can't kill them fast enough because they respawn so quickly with so much health. And if you dedicate more than 4-6 people to destroy them, then the Attackers have the advantage at Keeps.
IMO, all they have to do is make the capping of bases happen 50-100% faster than defenders. I was attacking Tol Barad last night, and we had Iron and Wardens capped. Got Slag within 1 tick of capping and then we lost control of Wardens. And that happened twice. It was frustrating as hell.
Beat my Fire Mage buddy in a Duel last night. Spell Reflected 2 Crit Pyroblasts to do it, and he still got me down to 5500 health. He tears people apart in Battlegrounds as fire. That casting scorch while running is hilarious as a goblin mage is circle strafing people blowing them up, but totally not cool when he is kiting me.
I also saw him take a Deathknight from 60% to dead in about 2 global cooldowns. The guy had no chance, it was kind of disgusting to watch. Granted everything came together at the same time, Living Bomb, Combustion, Pyroblast and I think a Fireblast impact on top of the ignites ticking away.
With all the really impressive design decisions Blizzard has made to shift WoW over the last six years, it's astonishing how bad they are at PvP design.
I would have to imagine they really don't have anybody on their staff who consider themselves pvpers at heart.
If they had somebody in charge of pvp, and they actually enjoyed and were avid pvpers, they would have seen TB and said "yeah this is fucking stupid."
Beat my Fire Mage buddy in a Duel last night. Spell Reflected 2 Crit Pyroblasts to do it, and he still got me down to 5500 health. He tears people apart in Battlegrounds as fire. That casting scorch while running is hilarious as a goblin mage is circle strafing people blowing them up, but totally not cool when he is kiting me.
I also saw him take a Deathknight from 60% to dead in about 2 global cooldowns. The guy had no chance, it was kind of disgusting to watch. Granted everything came together at the same time, Living Bomb, Combustion, Pyroblast and I think a Fireblast impact on top of the ignites ticking away.
All mages right now are pretty powerful. As a DK they're really the one class that gives me a ton of trouble every time I fight them.
With all the really impressive design decisions Blizzard has made to shift WoW over the last six years, it's astonishing how bad they are at PvP design.
I would have to imagine they really don't have anybody on their staff who consider themselves pvpers at heart.
If they had somebody in charge of pvp, and they actually enjoyed and were avid pvpers, they would have seen TB and said "yeah this is fucking stupid."
The aforementioned 'pvp guy' would also have to look at the pve roadmap for gear and talents and say "yeah, none of this stuff is going to work if you want good pvp". He would then be escorted out to the parking lot with a cardboard box full of his belongings.
IMO the only thing that would really have made wow a good pvp game and proven that pvp wasn't an afterthought. Would have been rather than having two (or 3 if you include rp) "server types" you had two seperate games entirely. WoW-PVE where the game would pretty much be what it is today, and then when you chose WoW-PVP as your server you got an actual pvp server, where pvp was the chosen method to progress your character, in a real and meaningful way.
Wow just doesn't lend itself to pvp progression. In pve you have multiple levels and things to do to progress your character, questing, dungeons, heroics, raids, heroic raids. Every one of those things gives you a different level of progressively "better" gear.
If PVE had the current PVP 'progression' roadmap it would have you getting no gear at all from questing, or dungeons, or heroic dungeons. Raiding in 'normal' mode would give you access to lesser quality armor (no weapons) and then you would have to complete the current hardest level raid in heroic mode just to obtain a weapon and some epic armor. All this with the same difficulty level as the current pve content (read: getting wiped hundreds of times a day just to get through the content with no hope of obtaining the gear you need to complete it).
With all the really impressive design decisions Blizzard has made to shift WoW over the last six years, it's astonishing how bad they are at PvP design.
I would have to imagine they really don't have anybody on their staff who consider themselves pvpers at heart.
If they had somebody in charge of pvp, and they actually enjoyed and were avid pvpers, they would have seen TB and said "yeah this is fucking stupid."
The aforementioned 'pvp guy' would also have to look at the pve roadmap for gear and talents and say "yeah, none of this stuff is going to work if you want good pvp". He would then be escorted out to the parking lot with a cardboard box full of his belongings.
IMO the only thing that would really have made wow a good pvp game and proven that pvp wasn't an afterthought. Would have been rather than having two (or 3 if you include rp) "server types" you had two seperate games entirely. WoW-PVE where the game would pretty much be what it is today, and then when you chose WoW-PVP as your server you got an actual pvp server, where pvp was the chosen method to progress your character, in a real and meaningful way.
Wow just doesn't lend itself to pvp progression. In pve you have multiple levels and things to do to progress your character, questing, dungeons, heroics, raids, heroic raids. Every one of those things gives you a different level of progressively "better" gear.
If PVE had the current PVP 'progression' roadmap it would have you getting no gear at all from questing, or dungeons, or heroic dungeons. Raiding in 'normal' mode would give you access to lesser quality armor (no weapons) and then you would have to complete the current hardest level raid in heroic mode just to obtain a weapon and some epic armor. All this with the same difficulty level as the current pve content (read: getting wiped hundreds of times a day just to get through the content with no hope of obtaining the gear you need to complete it).
I'd say that it is like grinding the same 5 dungeons for a total of 100 hours (with a decent team). Then when you have all the gear and are able to compete, you realize that your class does not fight well with your friends and someone is forced to Re-roll so that you can be successful.
I hate 5v5 Gimmick teams. First(and last) 5v5 match was vs a 5 Paladin team. 2 Holy, 2 Ret and 1 Prot vs 1 Prot Warrior, 1 Arms Warrior, Fire Mage, Hunter and Holy/Disc Priest. There was really nothing we could do as paladins don't run out of mana while running around keeping everyone at full health. Can't sheep because it immediately gets dispelled. And that ended our thoughts that 5v5 could be a fun time.
It's weird because Blizzard is pretty famous for competitive gaming.
What's missing?
-Gear is a mess in the leveling process. Shit isn't expensive, but it's all over the place and I mean that literally. If you want boots, you gotta run your ass to Arathi. If you want A trinket, you gotta go to Org next. Then you hit 60 and there's no new gear beyond that until 68. And that's all locked behind various TBC reps.
At the very least, winning a battleground in the 10-60 region should give you the same bag of spoils that completing a random dungeon does, with the level obviously being tied to your bracket ranged. They already have the loot bags built in. It would be an insanely quick and easy fix to get the bags in as an additional reward item.
Then just make loot bags for the 60-80 range and, shit, throw them into the LFD system as well. Players deserve something more for suffering through those fucking TBC Auchindoun dungeons.
If they had somebody in charge of pvp, and they actually enjoyed and were avid pvpers, they would have seen TB and said "yeah this is fucking stupid."
The more I do Tol Barad, I'm not so sure its tha poorly designed. Sure, there's bitching that "you can't take it", but whenever horde is on defense, they fight outside the bases and lose the zone in 5 minutes. I've come to the conclusion that people have no idea what they are talking about and deserve to lose.
Posts
You can play with those 7 people just fine as long as you grab some other people and get vaguely organized.
If you look at the advancements that have been made in the PvE systems vs the PvP systems there is absolutely no comparison. PvE gets a completely rebuilt 1-60 experience, 61-85 content, and a billion raid dungeons. PvP gets a pittance of BG XP, pre-cap itemization that doesn't work (try to buy low level items with honor... seriously) a few ignored world PvP zones, and what, five BGs?
PvP was never WoW's (or Blizzard's) strong suit, I'm just kind of amazed at how exponentially behind it's stuck.
PvE was rebuilt and redone because there was alot of room and obvious places to go.
PvP ... well, again, what's missing? There needs to be a better way to get gear as you level up through PvP, but what else are you looking for? They are adding more BGs but they are, justifiably, nervous of adding too many or too many that are basically the same.
What's missing?
-Gear is a mess in the leveling process. Shit isn't expensive, but it's all over the place and I mean that literally. If you want boots, you gotta run your ass to Arathi. If you want A trinket, you gotta go to Org next. Then you hit 60 and there's no new gear beyond that until 68. And that's all locked behind various TBC reps.
-A lack of decent world PvP content. Tol Barad and Wintergrasp are just Battlegrounds that only queue on your realm. This is not a terrible thing, but it's also not really world PvP.
-Refined dueling options. It is retarded that we cannot, at least, set up special dueling rules to mimic Conquest play, and have to go by unspoken rules that not everyone is sure to follow. On top of that, it's silly that we have to wait on cooldowns if we blow them during a duel. Restrict duelists to targeting only each other, and allow any cooldown blown during that duel to reset when the duel ends.
-Timely balance. As Tol Barad shows, Blizzard does not fucking test their shit. If PvE content was in this shape the game would be in ruins.
-No ability to observe or replay specific matches.
-The season method is a goddamn wreck. Seasons need a specific length, not weird shit like the last seasons lasting 37 fucking weeks because they had no new content.
There's also the fact that a lot of shit going in this expansion was suggested by players YEARS ago. Shit that could easily be patched in requires a damn expansion to see the light of day.
Seriously?
Man, PvE balance doesn't move any faster.
There are a ton of Blood Elf Paladins or Tauren Shamans/Druids that apparently enjoy healing in BGs.
As Allliance, I hope to see a ton of Worgen Druids going Resto and queuing for WSG.
Including one memorable WSG where the Alliance had 8 healers and a Prot Warrior and a Mage.
If they can make a tool that sets up 1 Healer, 1 Tank, and 3 DPS in dungeons.
They should make a similar tool for BGs, that requires and caps it at 3-4 Healers.
With the new talent system, it'd be dead easy to do to.
It is when the battle ends and you rove around ganking the shit out of people doing the dailies.
I wouldn't really be surprised or mind if they lowered the point gain for lower rankings, because its silly easy. I queued up with 2 other dps for a 3v3 arena and got our weekly cap in less than an hour. The competition was not stiff, either.
It works this way. If people just play to cap, they will take a month to see their cap increase at all. But they get points without playing a billion games. Nothing sucked more than spending that first week on a hundred games to get within gear ratings.
Ok.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
That or Blizzard could do some server-side checks... *Cough*
You can switch your spec while waiting for the BG gates to open.
Last cap wins in a tie is fucking bullshit. 15 fucking minutes and we finally cap, we continue defending and attacking, then at 3 minutes left they manage to get an equaliser and turtle with 4 healers in their base. Horde wins.
I haven't won a single game of CTF since TBC was released.
True, but it was slower back in s1 and s2, which didn't use rating req.
Only if you're attacking.
It's not a bad zone layout I think, but the rules of the match are just terrible.
And I think TB would work with the current rules if the bases were further away. Basically swapping the towers with the bases would help a lot I think.
This would make destroying the towers important because extended time means it's more likely you'll get all three, and it makes it so that defense actually has to defend and offense actually gets to attack.
Still not perfectly balanced, but it's more fair than the current form. And it favors the offense more than the defense which means it gets to change hands more often, unlike the current setup.
If it favors the offense too much, you can take away their graveyards near the base and only let them use the graveyards at the towers that they have destroyed (or if no tower is destroyed, respawn at the bridge).
didn't they get rid of battlegroups?
Non-whirlwind horde are fucking terrible and I hate playing with them.
If they permantly capped then Defense would be impossible in it's current setup.
Also, Defending the towers is pointless. All they need is 4-6 people constantly driving the siege tanks to the towers. You can't kill them fast enough because they respawn so quickly with so much health. And if you dedicate more than 4-6 people to destroy them, then the Attackers have the advantage at Keeps.
IMO, all they have to do is make the capping of bases happen 50-100% faster than defenders. I was attacking Tol Barad last night, and we had Iron and Wardens capped. Got Slag within 1 tick of capping and then we lost control of Wardens. And that happened twice. It was frustrating as hell.
Not only is crossing a body of water fucking bullshit, but even if that weren't there they would still reach the flag 3-4 seconds faster.
How do they get things so wrong.
edit: So, it is literally impossible for a rogue to take hunter 1 on 1 now. Balance is so fucking terrible jesus christ.
I also saw him take a Deathknight from 60% to dead in about 2 global cooldowns. The guy had no chance, it was kind of disgusting to watch. Granted everything came together at the same time, Living Bomb, Combustion, Pyroblast and I think a Fireblast impact on top of the ignites ticking away.
I would have to imagine they really don't have anybody on their staff who consider themselves pvpers at heart.
If they had somebody in charge of pvp, and they actually enjoyed and were avid pvpers, they would have seen TB and said "yeah this is fucking stupid."
Empire - Veela Server
All mages right now are pretty powerful. As a DK they're really the one class that gives me a ton of trouble every time I fight them.
Empire - Veela Server
The aforementioned 'pvp guy' would also have to look at the pve roadmap for gear and talents and say "yeah, none of this stuff is going to work if you want good pvp". He would then be escorted out to the parking lot with a cardboard box full of his belongings.
IMO the only thing that would really have made wow a good pvp game and proven that pvp wasn't an afterthought. Would have been rather than having two (or 3 if you include rp) "server types" you had two seperate games entirely. WoW-PVE where the game would pretty much be what it is today, and then when you chose WoW-PVP as your server you got an actual pvp server, where pvp was the chosen method to progress your character, in a real and meaningful way.
Wow just doesn't lend itself to pvp progression. In pve you have multiple levels and things to do to progress your character, questing, dungeons, heroics, raids, heroic raids. Every one of those things gives you a different level of progressively "better" gear.
If PVE had the current PVP 'progression' roadmap it would have you getting no gear at all from questing, or dungeons, or heroic dungeons. Raiding in 'normal' mode would give you access to lesser quality armor (no weapons) and then you would have to complete the current hardest level raid in heroic mode just to obtain a weapon and some epic armor. All this with the same difficulty level as the current pve content (read: getting wiped hundreds of times a day just to get through the content with no hope of obtaining the gear you need to complete it).
I'd say that it is like grinding the same 5 dungeons for a total of 100 hours (with a decent team). Then when you have all the gear and are able to compete, you realize that your class does not fight well with your friends and someone is forced to Re-roll so that you can be successful.
I hate 5v5 Gimmick teams. First(and last) 5v5 match was vs a 5 Paladin team. 2 Holy, 2 Ret and 1 Prot vs 1 Prot Warrior, 1 Arms Warrior, Fire Mage, Hunter and Holy/Disc Priest. There was really nothing we could do as paladins don't run out of mana while running around keeping everyone at full health. Can't sheep because it immediately gets dispelled. And that ended our thoughts that 5v5 could be a fun time.
Then just make loot bags for the 60-80 range and, shit, throw them into the LFD system as well. Players deserve something more for suffering through those fucking TBC Auchindoun dungeons.
The more I do Tol Barad, I'm not so sure its tha poorly designed. Sure, there's bitching that "you can't take it", but whenever horde is on defense, they fight outside the bases and lose the zone in 5 minutes. I've come to the conclusion that people have no idea what they are talking about and deserve to lose.
You're kidding, right?
You can get the 2v2 experience by dueling healers outside your home cities.