PvP is fun. PvP in WoW is sometimes fun. PvP in WoW BGs is ok fun. PvP in TB is depressing if your defending or rage inducing if your attacking. World PvP with meaningful cross realm conflicts reminiscent of DAOC would be MUCH MORE FUN.
I must disagree about world pvp. I absolutely loathe it. Mostly because arenas are so much better than anything else in the game.
BG's are only fun if you get a decent guild group together...otherwise, its just two giant clusterfucks of zergs slamming into each other half the time. And I still want to stab the guy who created AV-personally I hate anything that adds any pve element into the pvp scene. I didnt join in this bg to kill random guards. Same thing with vehicles, I dont want to sit in a vehicle...I want to play my character that I spent so much time working on.
Arenas are so much better because theyre a fixed amount of people. You don't get into good fights and then get into situations with absolutely no hope like in some of the battlegrounds.
And good lord Tol Barad is horrible, but I'm sure all of you already knew that.
Arenas are so much better because theyre a fixed amount of people. You don't get into good fights and then get into situations with absolutely no hope like in some of the battlegrounds.
Oh, you must have a good comp then. There are a lot of comps with "no hope" situations.
Tanks and towers right now are terrible design. There's no point trying to defend the towers at all right now. The tanks don't die fast enough without diverting a non-trivial amount of men, and killing a tank means nothing since they immediately respawn and can dash right back to the tower. Plus the towers just give more time for the attackers to win* the game. You basically have the opposite of WG, where every battle lasts 30 minutes because defenders are winning and the towers always go down.
*lose
I agree that killing the tanks is a terrible idea. In fact, Ive contributed directly to some wins as attackers by just driving the tank around mindless near the middle tower until a good number of them feel it more important to target me than their defense objectives.... and when they have the tank low on health just drive over and hop in a new one. Fucking stupid people play this game...
Arenas are so much better because theyre a fixed amount of people. You don't get into good fights and then get into situations with absolutely no hope like in some of the battlegrounds.
Oh, you must have a good comp then. There are a lot of comps with "no hope" situations.
I wouldnt say its an amazing comp, but my buddy and I have been pretty pleasantly surprised at how well we do as warrior/death knight.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited January 2011
Warriors? Really?
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Yeah when as a DK/Fro mage and the pally is sitting there dispelling all of my frost novas combined with 2 charges, leap, and a charge to the pally, it's kinda fucking annoying to get away from them.
well before they go nerfing folks into oblivion, they might try taking a page from WAR. Yes, say what you will about WAR, but they had a good idea for handling CC effects, if you were hit by one, you were immune to that type for a short period of time. No chain stuns, knockdowns, etc. You could still get CC'ed to death by a group, but I don't think it is reasonable for an individual to feel they should stand up to a group alone (as anything more than a speed bump anyways).
Not saying it would fix everything, but it would alleviate a lot of frustration.
well before they go nerfing folks into oblivion, they might try taking a page from WAR. Yes, say what you will about WAR, but they had a good idea for handling CC effects, if you were hit by one, you were immune to that type for a short period of time. No chain stuns, knockdowns, etc. You could still get CC'ed to death by a group, but I don't think it is reasonable for an individual to feel they should stand up to a group alone (as anything more than a speed bump anyways).
Not saying it would fix everything, but it would alleviate a lot of frustration.
I feel like they tried that with diminishing returns, but it would be better if they did the immunity. It would reward those who used cooldowns and stuns intelligently, and punish those who just spammed every ability (which I tend to do sometimes).
If it was flat-out immunity, healers would never die. Matches would take forever.
I get the feeling that healer mana just doesn't drain quite as fast as it should in PvP.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Yeah when as a DK/Fro mage and the pally is sitting there dispelling all of my frost novas combined with 2 charges, leap, and a charge to the pally, it's kinda fucking annoying to get away from them.
You're a frost mage and you think other people should get nerfed because you can't always get away from them?
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Yeah when as a DK/Fro mage and the pally is sitting there dispelling all of my frost novas combined with 2 charges, leap, and a charge to the pally, it's kinda fucking annoying to get away from them.
You're a frost mage and you think other people should get nerfed because you can't always get away from them?
I posted that in a fit of rage after dealing with losses to a pally/war and rogue/druid comps in 2s, not in a fit of logic.
In reality we just got outplayed by both teams which makes me mad.
I also don't think they should get nerfed, but nothing I can say can sway their intent with design, so all I can really do is just look forward to the change in that I'll have a better chance of winning.
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ElldrenIs a woman dammitceterum censeoRegistered Userregular
Yeah when as a DK/Fro mage and the pally is sitting there dispelling all of my frost novas combined with 2 charges, leap, and a charge to the pally, it's kinda fucking annoying to get away from them.
You're a frost mage and you think other people should get nerfed because you can't always get away from them?
I posted that in a fit of rage after dealing with losses to a pally/war and rogue/druid comps in 2s, not in a fit of logic.
In reality we just got outplayed by both teams which makes me mad.
I also don't think they should get nerfed, but nothing I can say can sway their intent with design, so all I can really do is just look forward to the change in that I'll have a better chance of winning.
Yeah when as a DK/Fro mage and the pally is sitting there dispelling all of my frost novas combined with 2 charges, leap, and a charge to the pally, it's kinda fucking annoying to get away from them.
You're a frost mage and you think other people should get nerfed because you can't always get away from them?
I posted that in a fit of rage after dealing with losses to a pally/war and rogue/druid comps in 2s, not in a fit of logic.
In reality we just got outplayed by both teams which makes me mad.
I also don't think they should get nerfed, but nothing I can say can sway their intent with design, so all I can really do is just look forward to the change in that I'll have a better chance of winning.
Yeah frost mages are out of control right now and the patch doesn't do shit to reel them in. Why do they get a ranged 5s stun on a 30s cooldown that they can apply whenever they want since their talents basically make it so you're always considered frozen if they've attacked you at all? Why does Ring of Frost only take 3s to start working when due to lag and whatnot you only really get a 1s warning to move out of the way and then it lasts for fucking ever AND you're fully frozen and not just snared so you can't do shit? At the same time they get these toys they also get to debuff your healing ability? So much bullshit.
Yeah Frost mages are just fucking absurd. They need massive changes in order for their control to be balanced. Ran up against double frost in my 2v2 today (granted it was myself (a Rogue) and my Hunter buddy dicking around in the 1700s with one of the worst comps imaginable) and we couldn't stop laughing at how ridiculous everything was. Ring of Frost everywhere, both of us were snared or stunned for about half a minute. The second we'd even approach being able to damage through their shields we'd have Ice Block to deal with.
My proposed Frost mage changes?
-Have ALL of their snares (including pet snare) share DR.
-Make Cold Snap no longer reset Ice Block, Ring of Frost and Summon Water Elemental. Preparation on Rogues used to reset all of our cooldowns and to balance this they singled out some of the more ridiculous spells that were getting used twice and removed them. Prep only actually resets four or five skills now, and Evasion is getting removed from it next patch. Hypothermia may as well not exist because thirty seconds is more than enough time for double Ice Blocks against many classes. Ring of Frost is too OP to get twice, and killing their Elemental should actually harm them in some sort of way instead of allowing them to roffle in their Ice Block, blink away and then fuck the shit out of you.
Two simple things, and that spec is balanced without affecting PvE whatsoever. Actually puts some fucking thought into when they want to use snares instead of just blasting everyone nearby with constant CC.
Yeah frost mages are out of control right now and the patch doesn't do shit to reel them in. Why do they get a ranged 5s stun on a 30s cooldown that they can apply whenever they want since their talents basically make it so you're always considered frozen if they've attacked you at all? Why does Ring of Frost only take 3s to start working when due to lag and whatnot you only really get a 1s warning to move out of the way and then it lasts for fucking ever AND you're fully frozen and not just snared so you can't do shit? At the same time they get these toys they also get to debuff your healing ability? So much bullshit.
First part is untrue since they took out the old talent that did do that. You can only deep freeze now if either A) They're frost nova'd/cone of cold/range freeze, or you have Fingers of Frost up which is a fairly random proc, but is only guaranteed if you use the pet freeze and it hits something.
They should make the duration down to 5 seconds in line with other stuns, and they did change it so that if you get knocked out of it you can't get back in it for about 3 seconds, but whenever someone hits you in it they stun will drop similar to frost nova because they have a certain damage threshold where, when the amount of damage is passed which is usually about 1 frostbolt ice lance shatter combo, it breaks.
With the healing debuff, isn't that roughly the same as a regular mortal strike? As far as I know all MS type abilities got fairly nerfed so it isn't as big of a deal now.
Yeah Frost mages are just fucking absurd. They need massive changes in order for their control to be balanced. Ran up against double frost in my 2v2 today (granted it was myself (a Rogue) and my Hunter buddy dicking around in the 1700s with one of the worst comps imaginable) and we couldn't stop laughing at how ridiculous everything was. Ring of Frost everywhere, both of us were snared or stunned for about half a minute. The second we'd even approach being able to damage through their shields we'd have Ice Block to deal with.
My proposed Frost mage changes?
-Have ALL of their snares (including pet snare) share DR.
-Make Cold Snap no longer reset Ice Block, Ring of Frost and Summon Water Elemental. Preparation on Rogues used to reset all of our cooldowns and to balance this they singled out some of the more ridiculous spells that were getting used twice and removed them. Prep only actually resets four or five skills now, and Evasion is getting removed from it next patch. Hypothermia may as well not exist because thirty seconds is more than enough time for double Ice Blocks against many classes. Ring of Frost is too OP to get twice, and killing their Elemental should actually harm them in some sort of way instead of allowing them to roffle in their Ice Block, blink away and then fuck the shit out of you.
Two simple things, and that spec is balanced without affecting PvE whatsoever. Actually puts some fucking thought into when they want to use snares instead of just blasting everyone nearby with constant CC.
First the game is in no way balanced around 2v2s, and I don't believe their control needs to get nerfed at all, but the damage needs to get nerfed (which they are already doing), having all of their snares share DR already exists except for Deep Freeze and all of the other snares, which share different diminishing returns.
30 seconds is also more than enough time for me to get ripped up classes like warriors and druids solo and if against 2 dps classes that focus me down, I'll get destroyed really fast because Ice Barrier doesn't last nearly as long as it used to.
The thing about Deep Freeze that gets me the most is that it's ranged and lasts so long for so short a cooldown. You can use it every time it's up because your pet's Freeze is on a shorter cooldown and even if that's not up your dps target will most likely have Fingers of Frost on them unless you're really unlucky or just used them up for damage beforehand and if that's an issue Frost Nova/Cone of Cold/Shattered Barrier also open up avenues for it to be used.
The only comparable spell is Shadowfury since it's a ranged stun on a 20s cooldown but not only is it a shorter stun, Destro Locks aren't also slowing you, rooting you, and/or freezing you at the same time. All of the other ranged stuns have 1m cooldowns (Hammer of Justice, Intimidation, and Bat pet screech) and even with that most of them are shorter duration than Deep Freeze (only Hammer's longer, with 6s duration).
That's agreeable, but Deep Freeze does suffer from diminishing returns, so after that first hit with it where I might be able to get a shatter combo off the stun's duration becomes shorter.
That's agreeable, but Deep Freeze does suffer from diminishing returns, so after that first hit with it where I might be able to get a shatter combo off the stun's duration becomes shorter.
If you are a frost mage and you are getting killed by a warrior(by himself) you are just bad. Even with my charges all I do is get continuosly frozen up by them because the first thing they do is
1. Blink
2. When I use intercept on them, they use whatever ability they have that freezes me to the ground
3. When I leap they hit me with that damn ice block.
4. And then you blink again the moment I catch up to you.
Now, if I had help from a healer, I might be able to eventually take you down if I keep on you way too long.
There is literally absolutely no way I can keep up with you by myself.
Granted. I dont know how your cooldowns work off the top of my head, but yeah. You should be able to kite a warrior just fine.
Im actually ok with this, because without these things you would have like zero survivability, honestly.
Its the same reason I have things like charge and intercept plus snares-if Im not in melee Im completely useless, just like if you go down from me beating on you with no way to get away would be useless.
That's agreeable, but Deep Freeze does suffer from diminishing returns, so after that first hit with it where I might be able to get a shatter combo off the stun's duration becomes shorter.
If you are a frost mage and you are getting killed by a warrior(by himself) you are just bad. Even with my charges all I do is get continuosly frozen up by them because the first thing they do is
1. Blink
2. When I use intercept on them, they use whatever ability they have that freezes me to the ground
3. When I leap they hit me with that damn ice block.
4. And then you blink again the moment I catch up to you.
Now, if I had help from a healer, I might be able to eventually take you down if I keep on you way too long.
There is literally absolutely no way I can keep up with you by myself.
Granted. I dont know how your cooldowns work off the top of my head, but yeah. You should be able to kite a warrior just fine.
Im actually ok with this, because without these things you would have like zero survivability, honestly.
Its the same reason I have things like charge and intercept plus snares-if Im not in melee Im completely useless, just like if you go down from me beating on you with no way to get away would be useless.
With a pally dispelling all my snares it's kinda hard to keep away.
And I'm not saying I can't kill a warrior. In fact it's still easy for me to defeat warriors (by themselves), but it's definitely more difficult than it has been in past expansions with the added mobility.
All I see is a buff. Non-frozen damage went up, and frozen damage is exactly as stupid as it is now.
But maybe I missed something.
The main difference is that mastery for frost starts at 2 instead of 8. At 8 mastery the damage will be very similar to how it is now, but since frost starts at 2 the damage will be nerfed significantly in PvP since, for example, in full pvp gear I only have 8.98ish mastery, which will change to 2.98ish with the patch hits. The change basically nerfs the damage since, once you have that 8.98ish mastery in pvp gear everyone else will be just as geared with resilience/health. It nerfs PvP damage while also making PvE desire more mastery.
That's agreeable, but Deep Freeze does suffer from diminishing returns, so after that first hit with it where I might be able to get a shatter combo off the stun's duration becomes shorter.
If you are a frost mage and you are getting killed by a warrior(by himself) you are just bad. Even with my charges all I do is get continuosly frozen up by them because the first thing they do is
1. Blink
2. When I use intercept on them, they use whatever ability they have that freezes me to the ground
3. When I leap they hit me with that damn ice block.
4. And then you blink again the moment I catch up to you.
Now, if I had help from a healer, I might be able to eventually take you down if I keep on you way too long.
There is literally absolutely no way I can keep up with you by myself.
Granted. I dont know how your cooldowns work off the top of my head, but yeah. You should be able to kite a warrior just fine.
Im actually ok with this, because without these things you would have like zero survivability, honestly.
Its the same reason I have things like charge and intercept plus snares-if Im not in melee Im completely useless, just like if you go down from me beating on you with no way to get away would be useless.
With a pally dispelling all my snares it's kinda hard to keep away.
And I'm not saying I can't kill a warrior. In fact it's still easy for me to defeat warriors (by themselves), but it's definitely more difficult than it has been in past expansions with the added mobility.
If you assume a pally dispelling all those snares, you can also assume you have an ally helping you out.
But largely, it's the people who aren't warriors having the issues.
That's agreeable, but Deep Freeze does suffer from diminishing returns, so after that first hit with it where I might be able to get a shatter combo off the stun's duration becomes shorter.
If you are a frost mage and you are getting killed by a warrior(by himself) you are just bad. Even with my charges all I do is get continuosly frozen up by them because the first thing they do is
1. Blink
2. When I use intercept on them, they use whatever ability they have that freezes me to the ground
3. When I leap they hit me with that damn ice block.
4. And then you blink again the moment I catch up to you.
Now, if I had help from a healer, I might be able to eventually take you down if I keep on you way too long.
There is literally absolutely no way I can keep up with you by myself.
Granted. I dont know how your cooldowns work off the top of my head, but yeah. You should be able to kite a warrior just fine.
Im actually ok with this, because without these things you would have like zero survivability, honestly.
Its the same reason I have things like charge and intercept plus snares-if Im not in melee Im completely useless, just like if you go down from me beating on you with no way to get away would be useless.
With a pally dispelling all my snares it's kinda hard to keep away.
And I'm not saying I can't kill a warrior. In fact it's still easy for me to defeat warriors (by themselves), but it's definitely more difficult than it has been in past expansions with the added mobility.
If you assume a pally dispelling all those snares, you can also assume you have an ally helping you out.
But largely, it's the people who aren't warriors having the issues.
Not sure what you're trying to say with that second sentence there.
All I see is a buff. Non-frozen damage went up, and frozen damage is exactly as stupid as it is now.
But maybe I missed something.
The main difference is that mastery for frost starts at 2 instead of 8. At 8 mastery the damage will be very similar to how it is now, but since frost starts at 2 the damage will be nerfed significantly in PvP since, for example, in full pvp gear I only have 8.98ish mastery, which will change to 2.98ish with the patch hits. The change basically nerfs the damage since, once you have that 8.98ish mastery in pvp gear everyone else will be just as geared with resilience/health. It nerfs PvP damage while also making PvE desire more mastery.
But you are leaving out two important tidbits: your spec now increases Frostbolt's base damage by 15%, and Fingers of Frost increases Lance's damage by 15%.
This essentially negates the nerf to shatter damage. It's a buff, if anything: now you are less reliant on shattering targets than before. And with hardly ANY nerfs to the ridiculous amounts of CC you possess.
I'd be fine with removing the magic aspect of certain snares and maybe even Deep Freeze IF they tossed a lot of the shit out the window. It's fucking poisonous to the game and leads to an arms race with melee. As a Balance druid, I didn't get nearly as much in terms of CC as mages, and yet I have to deal with the consequences of warriors and rogues getting more shit to deal with your shit.
The 4.0.6 mage changes are some of the most stupefying I've seen since Warhammer's first balance patch did dick-all to Bright Wizards.
EDIT: And to put salt in the wound, they nerf MY root. Hire a fucking PvP team, Blizzard. You fucking have no idea what you are doing.
Hell, the only on command stun druids have is Bash which if you're not already in bear form when you want to use it ends up being terrible. 4s duration so by the time when you shift to your normal form to do whatever it's closer to 2s thanks to the GCD, 1m cooldown and melee range only, and requires Rage so you need Furor so you can use it right after shifting or you can waste time popping Enrage. It's ostensibly the worst stun in the game which is why Tauren are considered the best druid race to PvP with since you get an extra stun.
Yeah frost mages are out of control right now and the patch doesn't do shit to reel them in. Why do they get a ranged 5s stun on a 30s cooldown that they can apply whenever they want since their talents basically make it so you're always considered frozen if they've attacked you at all? Why does Ring of Frost only take 3s to start working when due to lag and whatnot you only really get a 1s warning to move out of the way and then it lasts for fucking ever AND you're fully frozen and not just snared so you can't do shit? At the same time they get these toys they also get to debuff your healing ability? So much bullshit.
First part is untrue since they took out the old talent that did do that. You can only deep freeze now if either A) They're frost nova'd/cone of cold/range freeze, or you have Fingers of Frost up which is a fairly random proc, but is only guaranteed if you use the pet freeze and it hits something.
They should make the duration down to 5 seconds in line with other stuns, and they did change it so that if you get knocked out of it you can't get back in it for about 3 seconds, but whenever someone hits you in it they stun will drop similar to frost nova because they have a certain damage threshold where, when the amount of damage is passed which is usually about 1 frostbolt ice lance shatter combo, it breaks.
With the healing debuff, isn't that roughly the same as a regular mortal strike? As far as I know all MS type abilities got fairly nerfed so it isn't as big of a deal now.
Yeah Frost mages are just fucking absurd. They need massive changes in order for their control to be balanced. Ran up against double frost in my 2v2 today (granted it was myself (a Rogue) and my Hunter buddy dicking around in the 1700s with one of the worst comps imaginable) and we couldn't stop laughing at how ridiculous everything was. Ring of Frost everywhere, both of us were snared or stunned for about half a minute. The second we'd even approach being able to damage through their shields we'd have Ice Block to deal with.
My proposed Frost mage changes?
-Have ALL of their snares (including pet snare) share DR.
-Make Cold Snap no longer reset Ice Block, Ring of Frost and Summon Water Elemental. Preparation on Rogues used to reset all of our cooldowns and to balance this they singled out some of the more ridiculous spells that were getting used twice and removed them. Prep only actually resets four or five skills now, and Evasion is getting removed from it next patch. Hypothermia may as well not exist because thirty seconds is more than enough time for double Ice Blocks against many classes. Ring of Frost is too OP to get twice, and killing their Elemental should actually harm them in some sort of way instead of allowing them to roffle in their Ice Block, blink away and then fuck the shit out of you.
Two simple things, and that spec is balanced without affecting PvE whatsoever. Actually puts some fucking thought into when they want to use snares instead of just blasting everyone nearby with constant CC.
First the game is in no way balanced around 2v2s, and I don't believe their control needs to get nerfed at all, but the damage needs to get nerfed (which they are already doing), having all of their snares share DR already exists except for Deep Freeze and all of the other snares, which share different diminishing returns.
30 seconds is also more than enough time for me to get ripped up classes like warriors and druids solo and if against 2 dps classes that focus me down, I'll get destroyed really fast because Ice Barrier doesn't last nearly as long as it used to.
I've dealt with Frost mages outside of that 2v2 before, they're pretty much ludicrous everywhere. BGs, arena, world PvP, duels. The game has got to be balanced around SOMETHING, and the OP class of the month can always say "well PvP isn't balanced around X!" Except in this case X is pretty much every form of PvP. So your class is less effective when you're getting spammed with dispels and clusterfucked by Warriors? Congrats, so is everyone else. Frost is still fucking ridiculous.
And different types of snares having different DR is the problem. Kidney Shot and Cheap Shot are both stuns that used to have different DR until Blizzard changed it to tone down the 11 second stunlock. The problem in dealing with Frosties isn't getting Frost Nova'd twice - it's getting Frost Nova'd, pet snared, hit with a freeze from breaking the Ice Barrier, imp Cone of Colded, and THEN Frost Nova'd again because the DR is up at that point.
Their damage is fine, it's the control that is the problem. Frost Mage is obscene right now, to the point where many Mages I know readily admit it and await their nerfs, laughing at every PTR update where their shit is untouched.
All I see is a buff. Non-frozen damage went up, and frozen damage is exactly as stupid as it is now.
But maybe I missed something.
The main difference is that mastery for frost starts at 2 instead of 8. At 8 mastery the damage will be very similar to how it is now, but since frost starts at 2 the damage will be nerfed significantly in PvP since, for example, in full pvp gear I only have 8.98ish mastery, which will change to 2.98ish with the patch hits. The change basically nerfs the damage since, once you have that 8.98ish mastery in pvp gear everyone else will be just as geared with resilience/health. It nerfs PvP damage while also making PvE desire more mastery.
But you are leaving out two important tidbits: your spec now increases Frostbolt's base damage by 15%, and Fingers of Frost increases Lance's damage by 15%.
This essentially negates the nerf to shatter damage. It's a buff, if anything: now you are less reliant on shattering targets than before. And with hardly ANY nerfs to the ridiculous amounts of CC you possess.
I'd be fine with removing the magic aspect of certain snares and maybe even Deep Freeze IF they tossed a lot of the shit out the window. It's fucking poisonous to the game and leads to an arms race with melee. As a Balance druid, I didn't get nearly as much in terms of CC as mages, and yet I have to deal with the consequences of warriors and rogues getting more shit to deal with your shit.
The 4.0.6 mage changes are some of the most stupefying I've seen since Warhammer's first balance patch did dick-all to Bright Wizards.
EDIT: And to put salt in the wound, they nerf MY root. Hire a fucking PvP team, Blizzard. You fucking have no idea what you are doing.
Ok I was looking for the numbers to run some math on it but forgot that Blizz addressed the issue to begin with:
Frost "buff"
We did buff Frost Bolt. And we did buff Ice Lance when Fingers of Frost is up. However, we've decreased all Frost damage to Frozen targets by about 15% from previous values. The net result is intended to be that Frost Bolt is a little better against non-Frozen targets, and about the same versus Frozen targets. Ice Lance with FoF is still good, but Ice lance damage against Frozen targets is down a bit.
The intent isn't to nerf PvE frost at all, but instead reward Frost Bolt use in PvP a bit more, and reduce the damage and effectiveness of Ice Lance in PvP.
The important take away here is that datamined changes from pre-release builds and tests are not accurate ways for you to get information on intended game adjustments. Take it with a grain of salt, and approach it with a giant cup of curiosity.
The new design is so that they can adjust the numbers and affect both PvE and PvP by simultaneously buffing one aspect and nerfing the other aspect.
Yeah frost mages are out of control right now and the patch doesn't do shit to reel them in. Why do they get a ranged 5s stun on a 30s cooldown that they can apply whenever they want since their talents basically make it so you're always considered frozen if they've attacked you at all? Why does Ring of Frost only take 3s to start working when due to lag and whatnot you only really get a 1s warning to move out of the way and then it lasts for fucking ever AND you're fully frozen and not just snared so you can't do shit? At the same time they get these toys they also get to debuff your healing ability? So much bullshit.
First part is untrue since they took out the old talent that did do that. You can only deep freeze now if either A) They're frost nova'd/cone of cold/range freeze, or you have Fingers of Frost up which is a fairly random proc, but is only guaranteed if you use the pet freeze and it hits something.
They should make the duration down to 5 seconds in line with other stuns, and they did change it so that if you get knocked out of it you can't get back in it for about 3 seconds, but whenever someone hits you in it they stun will drop similar to frost nova because they have a certain damage threshold where, when the amount of damage is passed which is usually about 1 frostbolt ice lance shatter combo, it breaks.
With the healing debuff, isn't that roughly the same as a regular mortal strike? As far as I know all MS type abilities got fairly nerfed so it isn't as big of a deal now.
Yeah Frost mages are just fucking absurd. They need massive changes in order for their control to be balanced. Ran up against double frost in my 2v2 today (granted it was myself (a Rogue) and my Hunter buddy dicking around in the 1700s with one of the worst comps imaginable) and we couldn't stop laughing at how ridiculous everything was. Ring of Frost everywhere, both of us were snared or stunned for about half a minute. The second we'd even approach being able to damage through their shields we'd have Ice Block to deal with.
My proposed Frost mage changes?
-Have ALL of their snares (including pet snare) share DR.
-Make Cold Snap no longer reset Ice Block, Ring of Frost and Summon Water Elemental. Preparation on Rogues used to reset all of our cooldowns and to balance this they singled out some of the more ridiculous spells that were getting used twice and removed them. Prep only actually resets four or five skills now, and Evasion is getting removed from it next patch. Hypothermia may as well not exist because thirty seconds is more than enough time for double Ice Blocks against many classes. Ring of Frost is too OP to get twice, and killing their Elemental should actually harm them in some sort of way instead of allowing them to roffle in their Ice Block, blink away and then fuck the shit out of you.
Two simple things, and that spec is balanced without affecting PvE whatsoever. Actually puts some fucking thought into when they want to use snares instead of just blasting everyone nearby with constant CC.
First the game is in no way balanced around 2v2s, and I don't believe their control needs to get nerfed at all, but the damage needs to get nerfed (which they are already doing), having all of their snares share DR already exists except for Deep Freeze and all of the other snares, which share different diminishing returns.
30 seconds is also more than enough time for me to get ripped up classes like warriors and druids solo and if against 2 dps classes that focus me down, I'll get destroyed really fast because Ice Barrier doesn't last nearly as long as it used to.
The problem in dealing with Frosties isn't getting Frost Nova'd twice - it's getting Frost Nova'd, pet snared, hit with a freeze from breaking the Ice Barrier, imp Cone of Colded, and THEN Frost Nova'd again because the DR is up at that point.
Their damage is fine, it's the control that is the problem.
All of those abilities do share diminishing returns, and it's their damage that needs to be nerfed more so than their control.
The problem in dealing with Frosties isn't getting Frost Nova'd twice - it's getting Frost Nova'd, pet snared, hit with a freeze from breaking the Ice Barrier, imp Cone of Colded, and THEN Frost Nova'd again because the DR is up at that point.
Their damage is fine, it's the control that is the problem.
All of those abilities do share diminishing returns, and it's their damage that needs to be nerfed more so than their control.
There are two different types of snare DR, random and controlled - on top of the stun to throw out. I'm not sure if Ring of Frost DR is separate too (I believe it is) but with even the most remotely competent management the control is just way too much.
Druid and Warrior mobility was ridiculous and got rightfully nerfed. Frost Mage control is pretty much the outrageous opposite of that, something should and will give. (There's a reason Druids with their powershift nerf are bitching about the future of their class against Frost Mages - it's the only thing that made their obscene mobility seem somehow less OP.)
The problem in dealing with Frosties isn't getting Frost Nova'd twice - it's getting Frost Nova'd, pet snared, hit with a freeze from breaking the Ice Barrier, imp Cone of Colded, and THEN Frost Nova'd again because the DR is up at that point.
Their damage is fine, it's the control that is the problem.
All of those abilities do share diminishing returns, and it's their damage that needs to be nerfed more so than their control.
There are two different types of snare DR, random and controlled - on top of the stun to throw out. I'm not sure if Ring of Frost DR is separate too (I believe it is) but with even the most remotely competent management the control is just way too much.
Druid and Warrior mobility was ridiculous and got rightfully nerfed. Frost Mage control is pretty much the outrageous opposite of that, something should and will give. (There's a reason Druids with their powershift nerf are bitching about the future of their class against Frost Mages - it's the only thing that made their obscene mobility seem somehow less OP.)
No they do all share DR, with the only difference being between Deep Freeze and the other snares, including ring of frost in it.
And I completely believe the druid nerf is too much because it basically makes them completely gimped against frost mages.
The problem in dealing with Frosties isn't getting Frost Nova'd twice - it's getting Frost Nova'd, pet snared, hit with a freeze from breaking the Ice Barrier, imp Cone of Colded, and THEN Frost Nova'd again because the DR is up at that point.
Their damage is fine, it's the control that is the problem.
All of those abilities do share diminishing returns, and it's their damage that needs to be nerfed more so than their control.
There are two different types of snare DR, random and controlled - on top of the stun to throw out. I'm not sure if Ring of Frost DR is separate too (I believe it is) but with even the most remotely competent management the control is just way too much.
Druid and Warrior mobility was ridiculous and got rightfully nerfed. Frost Mage control is pretty much the outrageous opposite of that, something should and will give. (There's a reason Druids with their powershift nerf are bitching about the future of their class against Frost Mages - it's the only thing that made their obscene mobility seem somehow less OP.)
No they do all share DR, with the only difference being between Deep Freeze and the other snares, including ring of frost in it.
And I completely believe the druid nerf is too much because it basically makes them completely gimped against frost mages.
Havent we learned our lesson? everything is gimped to versus a frost mage.
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I must disagree about world pvp. I absolutely loathe it. Mostly because arenas are so much better than anything else in the game.
BG's are only fun if you get a decent guild group together...otherwise, its just two giant clusterfucks of zergs slamming into each other half the time. And I still want to stab the guy who created AV-personally I hate anything that adds any pve element into the pvp scene. I didnt join in this bg to kill random guards. Same thing with vehicles, I dont want to sit in a vehicle...I want to play my character that I spent so much time working on.
Arenas are so much better because theyre a fixed amount of people. You don't get into good fights and then get into situations with absolutely no hope like in some of the battlegrounds.
And good lord Tol Barad is horrible, but I'm sure all of you already knew that.
Just my two cents.
I agree that killing the tanks is a terrible idea. In fact, Ive contributed directly to some wins as attackers by just driving the tank around mindless near the middle tower until a good number of them feel it more important to target me than their defense objectives.... and when they have the tank low on health just drive over and hop in a new one. Fucking stupid people play this game...
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I wouldnt say its an amazing comp, but my buddy and I have been pretty pleasantly surprised at how well we do as warrior/death knight.
Till we run into two frost mages, of course.
Just cannot get away from those fuckers.
Not saying it would fix everything, but it would alleviate a lot of frustration.
I feel like they tried that with diminishing returns, but it would be better if they did the immunity. It would reward those who used cooldowns and stuns intelligently, and punish those who just spammed every ability (which I tend to do sometimes).
I get the feeling that healer mana just doesn't drain quite as fast as it should in PvP.
You're a frost mage and you think other people should get nerfed because you can't always get away from them?
I posted that in a fit of rage after dealing with losses to a pally/war and rogue/druid comps in 2s, not in a fit of logic.
In reality we just got outplayed by both teams which makes me mad.
I also don't think they should get nerfed, but nothing I can say can sway their intent with design, so all I can really do is just look forward to the change in that I'll have a better chance of winning.
But you're a frost mage
so basically I hate you
Fair enough
My proposed Frost mage changes?
-Have ALL of their snares (including pet snare) share DR.
-Make Cold Snap no longer reset Ice Block, Ring of Frost and Summon Water Elemental. Preparation on Rogues used to reset all of our cooldowns and to balance this they singled out some of the more ridiculous spells that were getting used twice and removed them. Prep only actually resets four or five skills now, and Evasion is getting removed from it next patch. Hypothermia may as well not exist because thirty seconds is more than enough time for double Ice Blocks against many classes. Ring of Frost is too OP to get twice, and killing their Elemental should actually harm them in some sort of way instead of allowing them to roffle in their Ice Block, blink away and then fuck the shit out of you.
Two simple things, and that spec is balanced without affecting PvE whatsoever. Actually puts some fucking thought into when they want to use snares instead of just blasting everyone nearby with constant CC.
First part is untrue since they took out the old talent that did do that. You can only deep freeze now if either A) They're frost nova'd/cone of cold/range freeze, or
They should make the duration down to 5 seconds in line with other stuns, and they did change it so that if you get knocked out of it you can't get back in it for about 3 seconds, but whenever someone hits you in it they stun will drop similar to frost nova because they have a certain damage threshold where, when the amount of damage is passed which is usually about 1 frostbolt ice lance shatter combo, it breaks.
With the healing debuff, isn't that roughly the same as a regular mortal strike? As far as I know all MS type abilities got fairly nerfed so it isn't as big of a deal now.
First the game is in no way balanced around 2v2s, and I don't believe their control needs to get nerfed at all, but the damage needs to get nerfed (which they are already doing), having all of their snares share DR already exists except for Deep Freeze and all of the other snares, which share different diminishing returns.
30 seconds is also more than enough time for me to get ripped up classes like warriors and druids solo and if against 2 dps classes that focus me down, I'll get destroyed really fast because Ice Barrier doesn't last nearly as long as it used to.
The only comparable spell is Shadowfury since it's a ranged stun on a 20s cooldown but not only is it a shorter stun, Destro Locks aren't also slowing you, rooting you, and/or freezing you at the same time. All of the other ranged stuns have 1m cooldowns (Hammer of Justice, Intimidation, and Bat pet screech) and even with that most of them are shorter duration than Deep Freeze (only Hammer's longer, with 6s duration).
If you are a frost mage and you are getting killed by a warrior(by himself) you are just bad. Even with my charges all I do is get continuosly frozen up by them because the first thing they do is
1. Blink
2. When I use intercept on them, they use whatever ability they have that freezes me to the ground
3. When I leap they hit me with that damn ice block.
4. And then you blink again the moment I catch up to you.
Now, if I had help from a healer, I might be able to eventually take you down if I keep on you way too long.
There is literally absolutely no way I can keep up with you by myself.
Granted. I dont know how your cooldowns work off the top of my head, but yeah. You should be able to kite a warrior just fine.
Im actually ok with this, because without these things you would have like zero survivability, honestly.
Its the same reason I have things like charge and intercept plus snares-if Im not in melee Im completely useless, just like if you go down from me beating on you with no way to get away would be useless.
All I see is a buff. Non-frozen damage went up, and frozen damage is exactly as stupid as it is now.
But maybe I missed something.
With a pally dispelling all my snares it's kinda hard to keep away.
And I'm not saying I can't kill a warrior. In fact it's still easy for me to defeat warriors (by themselves), but it's definitely more difficult than it has been in past expansions with the added mobility.
The main difference is that mastery for frost starts at 2 instead of 8. At 8 mastery the damage will be very similar to how it is now, but since frost starts at 2 the damage will be nerfed significantly in PvP since, for example, in full pvp gear I only have 8.98ish mastery, which will change to 2.98ish with the patch hits. The change basically nerfs the damage since, once you have that 8.98ish mastery in pvp gear everyone else will be just as geared with resilience/health. It nerfs PvP damage while also making PvE desire more mastery.
If you assume a pally dispelling all those snares, you can also assume you have an ally helping you out.
But largely, it's the people who aren't warriors having the issues.
Not sure what you're trying to say with that second sentence there.
This essentially negates the nerf to shatter damage. It's a buff, if anything: now you are less reliant on shattering targets than before. And with hardly ANY nerfs to the ridiculous amounts of CC you possess.
I'd be fine with removing the magic aspect of certain snares and maybe even Deep Freeze IF they tossed a lot of the shit out the window. It's fucking poisonous to the game and leads to an arms race with melee. As a Balance druid, I didn't get nearly as much in terms of CC as mages, and yet I have to deal with the consequences of warriors and rogues getting more shit to deal with your shit.
The 4.0.6 mage changes are some of the most stupefying I've seen since Warhammer's first balance patch did dick-all to Bright Wizards.
EDIT: And to put salt in the wound, they nerf MY root. Hire a fucking PvP team, Blizzard. You fucking have no idea what you are doing.
I've dealt with Frost mages outside of that 2v2 before, they're pretty much ludicrous everywhere. BGs, arena, world PvP, duels. The game has got to be balanced around SOMETHING, and the OP class of the month can always say "well PvP isn't balanced around X!" Except in this case X is pretty much every form of PvP. So your class is less effective when you're getting spammed with dispels and clusterfucked by Warriors? Congrats, so is everyone else. Frost is still fucking ridiculous.
And different types of snares having different DR is the problem. Kidney Shot and Cheap Shot are both stuns that used to have different DR until Blizzard changed it to tone down the 11 second stunlock. The problem in dealing with Frosties isn't getting Frost Nova'd twice - it's getting Frost Nova'd, pet snared, hit with a freeze from breaking the Ice Barrier, imp Cone of Colded, and THEN Frost Nova'd again because the DR is up at that point.
Their damage is fine, it's the control that is the problem. Frost Mage is obscene right now, to the point where many Mages I know readily admit it and await their nerfs, laughing at every PTR update where their shit is untouched.
Ok I was looking for the numbers to run some math on it but forgot that Blizz addressed the issue to begin with:
The new design is so that they can adjust the numbers and affect both PvE and PvP by simultaneously buffing one aspect and nerfing the other aspect.
All of those abilities do share diminishing returns, and it's their damage that needs to be nerfed more so than their control.
There are two different types of snare DR, random and controlled - on top of the stun to throw out. I'm not sure if Ring of Frost DR is separate too (I believe it is) but with even the most remotely competent management the control is just way too much.
Druid and Warrior mobility was ridiculous and got rightfully nerfed. Frost Mage control is pretty much the outrageous opposite of that, something should and will give. (There's a reason Druids with their powershift nerf are bitching about the future of their class against Frost Mages - it's the only thing that made their obscene mobility seem somehow less OP.)
No they do all share DR, with the only difference being between Deep Freeze and the other snares, including ring of frost in it.
And I completely believe the druid nerf is too much because it basically makes them completely gimped against frost mages.
Havent we learned our lesson? everything is gimped to versus a frost mage.
Roots stop the target's movement.
Origin: KafkaAU B-Net: Kafka#1778