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Penn & Teller Bullshit: Is it really?
Henroid
Mexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
Mexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
Edit - I originally made this thread for a specific episode, but this show is good shit. Let's talk about all of it!
I was thinking of making this thread over in G&T, but instead of having folks from here go there I figured why not bring them here instead for the sake of mingling!
So Penn & Teller have this show, Bullshit!. A friend of mine told me about an episode they aired recently which was focused entirely on video games, and whether or not they cause kids to be violent or develop those tendencies. Now, this forum being attributed to the site it is, we've had this discussion over and over again. I think Penn & Teller are one of, if not the, first public figures to go about this crap in the manner that they did.
First, here's links to the episode (cut up into three parts on YouTube; hopefully they don't take it down for whatever fucking reason):
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Over the course of the episode they have several people for each side (games cause shit vs. games don't cause shit) speak their main arguments. Even Jack Thompson himself makes an appearance (hilariously, he notes himself as being a lawyer when introducing himself - I don't think he's up with the times yet!). There's a lady who believes video games cause people to be anti-social, there's a guy who thinks FPS games are terrible things but ironically collects guns, and a young boy named Harrison whose mother is cool with him playing games.
The episode is pretty hilarious, and does a lot of the standard counter-arguments I've seen / heard on this topic. It wasn't until the end of the episode, which I think is best seen (and not jumping right to it - watch the entire episode for full effect) for one's self, that I realized how firm the position is that video games don't cause kids to be violent fucks. For the sake of the thread I'll add my two cents about it behind a spoiler tag.
Anyway... Penn & Teller present one of the strongest cases in defense of video games with this show, and I'd like for folks here to get as many people as they can to watch it.
I was thinking of making this thread over in G&T, but instead of having folks from here go there I figured why not bring them here instead for the sake of mingling!
So Penn & Teller have this show, Bullshit!. A friend of mine told me about an episode they aired recently which was focused entirely on video games, and whether or not they cause kids to be violent or develop those tendencies. Now, this forum being attributed to the site it is, we've had this discussion over and over again. I think Penn & Teller are one of, if not the, first public figures to go about this crap in the manner that they did.
First, here's links to the episode (cut up into three parts on YouTube; hopefully they don't take it down for whatever fucking reason):
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Over the course of the episode they have several people for each side (games cause shit vs. games don't cause shit) speak their main arguments. Even Jack Thompson himself makes an appearance (hilariously, he notes himself as being a lawyer when introducing himself - I don't think he's up with the times yet!). There's a lady who believes video games cause people to be anti-social, there's a guy who thinks FPS games are terrible things but ironically collects guns, and a young boy named Harrison whose mother is cool with him playing games.
The episode is pretty hilarious, and does a lot of the standard counter-arguments I've seen / heard on this topic. It wasn't until the end of the episode, which I think is best seen (and not jumping right to it - watch the entire episode for full effect) for one's self, that I realized how firm the position is that video games don't cause kids to be violent fucks. For the sake of the thread I'll add my two cents about it behind a spoiler tag.
I wasn't necessarily expecting Penn to go on the ending speech he gave regarding how many kids have died from injuries sustained in playing football (something seen as a wholesome activity) compared to kids shooting up schools. But it was good for impact, sort of setting in reality.
But then comes the part just before the credits where Harrison is seen after his first try to use a gun, where he's in tears with his mother consoling him. I guess plenty of people, for the sake of the internet, would argue about how that kid is a pussy. A more sensible argument would be that perhaps the recoil of the gun, or some gun powder or residue, affected him in a physical sense. That one I can understand. Nevertheless, I think it's one of the more powerful images to be seen in regard to this crusade against video games, and I wonder how many of the crusaders will at least acknowledge it and accept it. Perhaps change their stance.
But then comes the part just before the credits where Harrison is seen after his first try to use a gun, where he's in tears with his mother consoling him. I guess plenty of people, for the sake of the internet, would argue about how that kid is a pussy. A more sensible argument would be that perhaps the recoil of the gun, or some gun powder or residue, affected him in a physical sense. That one I can understand. Nevertheless, I think it's one of the more powerful images to be seen in regard to this crusade against video games, and I wonder how many of the crusaders will at least acknowledge it and accept it. Perhaps change their stance.
Anyway... Penn & Teller present one of the strongest cases in defense of video games with this show, and I'd like for folks here to get as many people as they can to watch it.
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As long as Hillary Clinton is alive (politically!), I disagree.
Um... globally governments are tending to ban or inhibit video games. The US constitution is barely staving it off over here, but only just.
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edit note: I love OnDemand so so much.
You're right, that's why this video is just people talking about how there's no problem with games in their opinion
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Not fix'd, so much as slightly modified for safety sake.
The public cannot focus on too many things at once.
Yeah, not that I'm defending Clinton, but she's no threat to video games. She just jumped on the Hot Coffee Bandwagon while it was hot (ho ho) to try and get some attention. I don't think she's so much as uttered the words 'video' and 'games' since then.
That was good, though. Probably the best part was the sad-sack that was patrolling the video game convention and how they basically tore his triangle bullshit to pieces, then showed him to be a gigantic gun-totting hypocrite.
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Also for the next 3(hopefully 7) years, she has no bearing at all on domestic policy, and 7 years from now we'll have more and more dangerous kids raised on murder simulators just being the normal people.
Also wow, the very end of that show
On another note, I love Bullshit but seeing orgasms on their list of upcoming topics just fucking blew my mind.
I think you might be overestimating how much influence Penn and Teller have on children.
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He had ear covers on. The AR is loud but it's recoil is virtually non existent. He was probably crying from the emotions involved with the pressure being under so much scruntiny. He had a lot of people watchin him as well as the cameras and all that. It can be a lot for a little kid. I don't think it was shooting the gun that made him cry. Although he was obviously not into it after firing.
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Yeah there is no way that study would ever pass ethical board standards ever.
I mean, come on, Milgrams experiments of tricking adults into thinking they were giving someone an electric shock wouldn't pass any board of ethics these days.
I very much think that the entire production staff was nothing but supportive of him and did their best to downplay the cameras. It's common practice. I've worked with kids in theater before, and you don't ever thrust kids in front of an audience and say "BE RIGHT". TV and theater and film groups know how to deal with kids... Sure, I've fired guns, I'll fire guns in the future, I've never cried after, but I doubt that the camera crews just treated him as a professional actor and that's what made him cry.
The kid is no pussy, hes nine yrs old. And I can tell you from experience that shooting a gun as a child can be a terrifying experience (and I wasn't firing high-powered assault rifles).
No but seriously I think a study involving seeing how children obsessed with violent videogames react to real firearms (with all the precautions taken in the P&T video) would be useful. It would be hard to conduct, if the authors of Grand Theft Childhood are accurate with their statements on the subject, doing any legitimate research with children is very hard (similar to trying to do a study with prisoners) - which is why they usually use college students.
She is also an incredible mother.
She never, ever showed concern about me playing games that had violence other than making sure I knew the difference between the fantasy violence and real violence. She was more concerned about me having gun toys than playing games with guns. Actually, no, once she was concerned that I was playing Deus Ex at 15. I explained to her why it wasn't a problem at the time and she accepted it.
When I've spoken to her as an adult about the subject, her feelings are twofold:
First, when watching me play CoD4, she mentioned "Doesn't this just make you frightened about any prospect of fighting in military service? You just died to someone you didn't see. This is brutal". And I agreed. CoD4 is great about showing that war is brutal, and that being an infantry soldier in a battle is brutal. She knows it's a violent game, she knows it's a realistic military game that rewards kills, her concern was that is is just horrible if someone took it as reality. She saw CoD4 as an anti-killing-people experience. I've explained the artistic merit and she wonders why I would like something that is so macabre... but isn't concerned at all.
Secondly, competition is handled in the brain completely different from killing other people. When people see "100 points" after "Killing" someone in a game, it's a completely different reaction from that which activates when people take up a weapon against other people. Even at the most violent level, when people are practicing clicking on other people very well to get a score, there is no connection with violent impulses.
This is without study. And she's always willing to look at and critique other studies. She's outstandingly good at her job. She really is something of a field legend. But that was her off the top of the head thoughts.
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
Incorrect. Read Grand theft Childhood. At one point they cite the statistic "There have been around 500 studies done on the effects of violent video games, all but 5 have discovered a direct causal link" The simple fact of the matter is that there are no studies that show that playing video games in normal individuals increases violent tendancies. Studies have not at all conclusively proven that video games causes an increase in aggressive behavior. Studies have shown that video games have a correlation with violent behavior. Violent kids are more likely to play violent games. Disturbed kids who play violent games will probably commit violent acts. But disturbed kids who don't play violent games will probably commit violent acts.
Violent games aren't a catalyst, they aren't an impetus.
also, the view that the studies are always biased is of course also incorrect. Studies have findings. Those findings, even when the study is wrong, don't say what the media, or what specific groups see the study show. Look at the PA podcast about the study showing that Gamers are more likely to do drugs... The study concluded basically that there was a high correlation with people who play games and people who do drugs by studying a sample of college students. Basically, what the study showed under any normal light is that college students are likely to drink, do drugs, and play video games. But that's not what the study was reported as. My mother has something to say about this too... what studies show and what the media report aren't always the same thing. You have to actually look at studies, and no study has shown that violent games increase violent behavior at all.
Also you brought up competitiveness....competitiveness refers to the game, or the sport. Competitiveness isn't violence or aggressive behavior. Football players don't just randomly tackle and beat up people because they do so in football.
I'm not trying to be an expert in the field, but I am the son of an expert in the field. An incredible expert in the field. And I've talked to her about this.
My wife fired her first gun a little over a year ago... a 9mm Smith & Wesson M&P compact. It is not a big gun by any stretch. However, once she held it in her hand she started shaking and crying.
Half an hour of consoling her and telling her she was ok helped, and she fired her first shot. Once she fired it off once, she was fine, but before that? Holy shit.
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that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
I'm a relatively well-adjusted person. The first gun I fired was a pump pistol. I once fired it into the air, at a young age, making some joke. My dad proceeded to give me a lecture about gun safety that to this day remains with me, even though it wasn't loaded, I knew it wasn't loaded, I checked to make sure it wasn't loaded, the idea of gun safety remains in my consciousness.
A few years down the line, my father hit a squirrel with a car, something that will happen since my parents live on a mountain, effectively. He took his .22 rifle and shot the squirrel in the head to end it's twitching misery. Since he had to clean the rifle anyways, he let my sister and me have some fun with it. Both my sister and me first were intimidated by a .22 rifle because it was huge and made a loud fucking noise and wasn't the goddamn air pistol we had gotten used to.
Crying or fear over a firearm isn't a preexisting issue, it's the fact that guns are Loud and Scary
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
The issue being, "I'm holding something so small that's capable of easily taking a life"?
Stop being an arse.