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Racial Profiling or Rightful Investigation?

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    YallYall Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    I don't see how there's any question of racial profiling when the report was of "two black males with backpacks on the porch". The fact that the lady calling in felt that skin colour merited mention, and the fact that the police considered it relevant as well means that there was racial profiling. I have a hard time believing that merely someone "wedging his shoulder into the door as if he was trying to force entry" is sufficiently suspicious to deserve police attention.

    Seriously? You shouldn't describe the appearance of someone when reporting a possible crime?

    Should she not have mentioned the fact that they were men either? By your logic this is also gender profiling/discrimination.

    Yall on
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    lazegamerlazegamer The magnanimous cyberspaceRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    JihadJesus wrote: »
    Essentially:

    Lady is probably paranoid.
    Professor sounds like he's got a persecution complex.
    Cops cherish their authority and don't like to be fucked with (what else is new).

    :^:

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    tallgeezetallgeeze Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    I have a hard time believing that merely someone "wedging his shoulder into the door as if he was trying to force entry" is sufficiently suspicious to deserve police attention.
    Go try it sometime.
    Maybe it's just where I live, but people have to unstick doors all the time. If I'd had the cops called on me every time I had to use a little more force than usual to get a door open, by now I'd have spent well over my current zero hours at a station.

    So. Tried, tested, never been arrested.

    Especially if it's an old house everythings sticks for some reason. I had to deal with that helping out my dad with an old house.

    The campus ID thing sounds like it wouldn't cut it, but maybe profs have more details on theirs compared to a student.

    Either way the end of summer block party just got a little more interesting.

    tallgeeze on
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    HeartlashHeartlash Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    JihadJesus wrote: »
    Chanus wrote: »
    Sentry wrote: »
    I don't doubt that the guy was being a prick, but honestly, being a prick, even to a cop, is not against the law.

    Not against the law, but generally a bad idea. Want to play douche? They'll play douche right back at you.

    See: What happened.

    Seriously. If I have to break into my own house and someone calls the cops, it's a perfectly reasonable request to ask to see my ID. If I then refuse and start to go on a tirade at the cops for some insane reason, I'd expect to get arrested and have them sort it out later.

    Essentially:

    Lady is probably paranoid.
    Professor sounds like he's got a persecution complex.
    Cops cherish their authority and don't like to be fucked with (what else is new).

    Gates may have also been extra irritable because he just got back from China a few minutes before this happened. The travel may have made him extra prone to emotional outburst.

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    SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    JihadJesus wrote: »
    Chanus wrote: »
    Sentry wrote: »
    I don't doubt that the guy was being a prick, but honestly, being a prick, even to a cop, is not against the law.

    Not against the law, but generally a bad idea. Want to play douche? They'll play douche right back at you.

    See: What happened.

    Seriously. If I have to break into my own house and someone calls the cops, it's a perfectly reasonable request to ask to see my ID. If I then refuse and start to go on a tirade at the cops for some insane reason, I'd expect to get arrested and have them sort it out later.

    Okay, so we know what you would do with the situation you made up in your mind. Now, what would you do in the situation that actually happened? I.e. him showing the cops his ID, and them still not he lived their until they verified it with the campus police.

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    lazegamerlazegamer The magnanimous cyberspaceRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Sentry wrote: »
    JihadJesus wrote: »
    Chanus wrote: »
    Sentry wrote: »
    I don't doubt that the guy was being a prick, but honestly, being a prick, even to a cop, is not against the law.

    Not against the law, but generally a bad idea. Want to play douche? They'll play douche right back at you.

    See: What happened.

    Seriously. If I have to break into my own house and someone calls the cops, it's a perfectly reasonable request to ask to see my ID. If I then refuse and start to go on a tirade at the cops for some insane reason, I'd expect to get arrested and have them sort it out later.

    Okay, so we know what you would do with the situation you made up in your mind. Now, what would you do in the situation that actually happened? I.e. him showing the cops his ID, and them still not he lived their until they verified it with the campus police.

    Did his ID provide evidence that he lived in the residence? Otherwise, verifying it with the local authority kinda makes sense...

    lazegamer on
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    TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Selner wrote: »
    I've broken into my own house after dark in much the same fashion and never been called on it.
    That just means that the woman who called the police was possibly racially profiling.
    As in: "Two black guys, trying to break down a door! Police police!"
    Or: "Two white guys, fiddling with the door. I wonder if I could help them?"

    I would like to think that if one of my neighbors saw someone shoulder ramming my front door, that they would call the police. Or, walk up and from a distance ask what is going on (with phone in hand).

    If the police are correct, the prof was a little out of line in the way he treated the police. Maybe he was tired after his overseas trip, and not thinking.

    If he'd been polite, showed his ID and said good night to the officers we wouldn't be having this discussion.

    But it sounds like the police were rather out of line in actually arresting the guy and handcuffing him.
    In my case I was basically dismantling the screen door, but yeah, oen would think the neighbor would recognize him, though if it was dark enough he might have been hard to see. The police certainly were right to ask if he lived there and want ID, but after that it seems they just took it too far.

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    Grid SystemGrid System Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Yall wrote: »
    I don't see how there's any question of racial profiling when the report was of "two black males with backpacks on the porch". The fact that the lady calling in felt that skin colour merited mention, and the fact that the police considered it relevant as well means that there was racial profiling. I have a hard time believing that merely someone "wedging his shoulder into the door as if he was trying to force entry" is sufficiently suspicious to deserve police attention.

    Seriously? You shouldn't describe the appearance of someone when reporting a possible crime?

    Should she not have mentioned the fact that they were men either? By your logic this is also gender profiling/discrimination.
    No, because men as a group don't have a history of being unfairly targeted by law enforcement officials.

    And, again, "wedging his shoulder into the door as if he was trying to force entry" (and this is all I have to go on because I can't access the police report) does not sound like criminal activity. Saying that it's a couple of black dudes doing it plays into stereotypes of black criminality, and turns an otherwise innocuous situation into something more threatening.

    Grid System on
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    ElJeffeElJeffe Not actually a mod. Roaming the streets, waving his gun around.Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited July 2009
    I don't see how there's any question of racial profiling when the report was of "two black males with backpacks on the porch". The fact that the lady calling in felt that skin colour merited mention, and the fact that the police considered it relevant as well means that there was racial profiling. I have a hard time believing that merely someone "wedging his shoulder into the door as if he was trying to force entry" is sufficiently suspicious to deserve police attention.
    Trying to force a door, i.e. what the two guys on the porch were doing, looks an awful lot like trying to break in. I'd say the woman felt their skin color mattered, but the police have to check it either way. I doubt they would have just said "oh well" if the woman had called about two white guys with backpacks trying to wedge a door open.

    If the lady had reported that there were two guys with red jackets breaking in, it would've given a useful physical description to go off of. If the police show up and there's a couple of guys in jeans and blue sweaters walking away from the house, it'll merit nothing more than a quick question - "Hey, you see anything?" If they see two guys in red jackets walking away, well, those guys should be questioned.

    Change every instance of "red jacket" to "black skin" in that paragraph, and the point still stands. Which is to say that skin color is very relevant as a physical characteristic useful to ID a suspect. That's not profiling.

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    SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    lazegamer wrote: »
    Sentry wrote: »
    JihadJesus wrote: »
    Chanus wrote: »
    Sentry wrote: »
    I don't doubt that the guy was being a prick, but honestly, being a prick, even to a cop, is not against the law.

    Not against the law, but generally a bad idea. Want to play douche? They'll play douche right back at you.

    See: What happened.

    Seriously. If I have to break into my own house and someone calls the cops, it's a perfectly reasonable request to ask to see my ID. If I then refuse and start to go on a tirade at the cops for some insane reason, I'd expect to get arrested and have them sort it out later.

    Okay, so we know what you would do with the situation you made up in your mind. Now, what would you do in the situation that actually happened? I.e. him showing the cops his ID, and them still not he lived their until they verified it with the campus police.

    Did his ID provide evidence that he lived in the residence? Otherwise, verifying it with the local authority kinda makes sense...

    I thought he showed his drivers license and his College ID. Doesn't your drivers license have your address on it? Maybe I misread...

    Sentry on
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    iTunesIsEviliTunesIsEvil Cornfield? Cornfield.Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Sentry wrote: »
    lazegamer wrote: »
    Sentry wrote: »
    JihadJesus wrote: »
    Chanus wrote: »
    Sentry wrote: »
    I don't doubt that the guy was being a prick, but honestly, being a prick, even to a cop, is not against the law.

    Not against the law, but generally a bad idea. Want to play douche? They'll play douche right back at you.

    See: What happened.

    Seriously. If I have to break into my own house and someone calls the cops, it's a perfectly reasonable request to ask to see my ID. If I then refuse and start to go on a tirade at the cops for some insane reason, I'd expect to get arrested and have them sort it out later.

    Okay, so we know what you would do with the situation you made up in your mind. Now, what would you do in the situation that actually happened? I.e. him showing the cops his ID, and them still not he lived their until they verified it with the campus police.

    Did his ID provide evidence that he lived in the residence? Otherwise, verifying it with the local authority kinda makes sense...

    I thought he showed his drivers license and his College ID. Doesn't your drivers license have your address on it? Maybe I misread...
    Police report only mentions that he showed his Harvard ID I think. Stupid PDF's not searchable though so I could be missing something.

    iTunesIsEvil on
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    PeregrineFalconPeregrineFalcon Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    If the lady had reported that there were two guys with red jackets breaking in, it would've given a useful physical description to go off of. If the police show up and there's a couple of guys in jeans and blue sweaters walking away from the house, it'll merit nothing more than a quick question - "Hey, you see anything?" If they see two guys in red jackets walking away, well, those guys should be questioned.

    Change every instance of "red jacket" to "black skin" in that paragraph, and the point still stands. Which is to say that skin color is very relevant as a physical characteristic useful to ID a suspect. That's not profiling.

    But but dat's racist, they chose to wear red jackets, they didn't choose to be black or white. </sarcasm>

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    PeregrineFalconPeregrineFalcon Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Sentry wrote: »
    I thought he showed his drivers license and his College ID. Doesn't your drivers license have your address on it? Maybe I misread...
    Police report only mentions that he showed his Harvard ID I think. Stupid PDF's not searchable though so I could be missing something.
    TFA wrote:
    Gates ... initially refused to show the officer his identification, but then gave him a Harvard University ID card, according to police.

    So he went from "no ID" to "bullshit ID" and then finally to "valid ID"?

    Colour me unsurprised to find out that the police weren't terribly pleased.

    Any takers on what would have happened if he'd said "Sorry Officer, I've had a rough trip back from China, and the door was stuck. Here's my ID proving that I live here." Anyone? Bueller?

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    iTunesIsEviliTunesIsEvil Cornfield? Cornfield.Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Sentry wrote: »
    I thought he showed his drivers license and his College ID. Doesn't your drivers license have your address on it? Maybe I misread...
    Police report only mentions that he showed his Harvard ID I think. Stupid PDF's not searchable though so I could be missing something.
    TFA wrote:
    Gates ... initially refused to show the officer his identification, but then gave him a Harvard University ID card, according to police.

    So he went from "no ID" to "bullshit ID" and then finally to "valid ID"?

    Colour me unsurprised to find out that the police weren't terribly pleased.

    Any takers on what would have happened if he'd said "Sorry Officer, I've had a rough trip back from China, and the door was stuck. Here's my ID proving that I live here." Anyone? Bueller?
    I've still not seen where he actually offered his "real" ID. I'm sure things would have gone much better had he not gotten upset, but people get upset. Meh.

    iTunesIsEvil on
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    Chake99Chake99 Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    The charges were dropped, mainly I think because it was becoming a big deal

    Also, this was the statement Gates' lawyer released:
    This brief statement is being submitted on behalf of my client,
    friend, and colleague, Professor Henry Louis Gates, Jr. This is a
    statement concerning the arrest [1]of Professor Gates. On July 16,
    2009, Professor Henry Louis Gates, Jr., 58, the Alphonse Fletcher
    University Professor of Harvard University, was headed from Logan
    airport to his home [in] Cambridge after spending a week in China,
    where he was filming his new PBS documentary entitled “Faces of
    America.” Professor Gates was driven to his home by a driver for a
    local car company. Professor Gates attempted to enter his front door,
    but the door was damaged. Professor Gates then entered his rear door
    with his key, turned off his alarm, and again attempted to open the
    front door. With the help of his driver they were able to force the
    front door open, and then the driver carried Professor Gates’ luggage
    into his home.

    Professor Gates immediately called the Harvard Real Estate office to
    report the damage to his door and requested that it be repaired
    immediately. As he was talking to the Harvard Real Estate office on
    his portable phone in his house, he observed a uniformed officer on
    his front porch. When Professor Gates opened the door, the officer
    immediately asked him to step outside. Professor Gates remained inside
    his home and asked the officer why he was there. The officer indicated
    that he was responding to a 911 call about a breaking and entering in
    progress at this address. Professor Gates informed the officer that he
    lived there and was a faculty member at Harvard University. The
    officer then asked Professor Gates whether he could prove that he
    lived there and taught at Harvard. Professor Gates said that he could,
    and turned to walk into his kitchen, where he had left his wallet. The
    officer followed him. Professor Gates handed both his Harvard
    University identification and his valid Massachusetts driver’s license
    to the officer. Both include Professor Gates’ photograph, and the
    license includes his address.

    Professor Gates then asked the police officer if he would give him his
    name and his badge number. He made this request several times. The
    officer did not produce any identification nor did he respond to
    Professor Gates’ request for this information. After an additional
    request by Professor Gates for the officer’s name and badge number,
    the officer then turned and left the kitchen of Professor Gates’ home
    without ever acknowledging who he was or if there were charges against
    Professor Gates. As Professor Gates followed the officer to his own
    front door, he was astonished to see several police officers gathered
    on his front porch. Professor Gates asked the officer’s colleagues for
    his name and badge number. As Professor Gates stepped onto his front
    porch, the officer who had been inside and who had examined his
    identification, said to him, “Thank you for accommodating my earlier
    request,” and then placed Professor Gates under arrest. He was
    handcuffed on his own front porch.

    To me it definitely looks like racial profiling (or absolutely terrible cops). Coming to see what the matter was is fine, but once the guy produces ID showing that he lives there, you've fucking resolved the issue. Arresting the guy because you don't like the way he's talking to you is not the way these things are supposed to work.

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    JihadJesusJihadJesus Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    TFA wrote:
    Gates ... initially refused to show the officer his identification, but then gave him a Harvard University ID card, according to police.

    So he went from "no ID" to "bullshit ID" and then finally to "valid ID"?

    Colour me unsurprised to find out that the police weren't terribly pleased.

    Any takers on what would have happened if he'd said "Sorry Officer, I've had a rough trip back from China, and the door was stuck. Here's my ID proving that I live here." Anyone? Bueller?

    This is what I thought happened and I agree with the general sentiment. Although I wouldn't call the Harvard ID 'bullshit' exactly, just irrelevant for the purpose of establishing his address.

    [Edit]
    If that report from an utterly unbiased report is to be believed, racism seems more likely. Looks like really comes down to he said/he said on whether the valid ID was presented initially. I'd guess it falls somewhere in between since ithat's how it usually goes.

    JihadJesus on
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    tallgeezetallgeeze Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Sentry wrote: »
    I thought he showed his drivers license and his College ID. Doesn't your drivers license have your address on it? Maybe I misread...
    Police report only mentions that he showed his Harvard ID I think. Stupid PDF's not searchable though so I could be missing something.
    TFA wrote:
    Gates ... initially refused to show the officer his identification, but then gave him a Harvard University ID card, according to police.

    So he went from "no ID" to "bullshit ID" and then finally to "valid ID"?

    Colour me unsurprised to find out that the police weren't terribly pleased.

    Any takers on what would have happened if he'd said "Sorry Officer, I've had a rough trip back from China, and the door was stuck. Here's my ID proving that I live here." Anyone? Bueller?

    Another story about police crossing the line after they arrest a man suspected of B&E even though he showed ID proving that he lived in the house?

    Either way we get a thread out of it.

    tallgeeze on
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    kaliyamakaliyama Left to find less-moderated fora Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    If the lady had reported that there were two guys with red jackets breaking in, it would've given a useful physical description to go off of. If the police show up and there's a couple of guys in jeans and blue sweaters walking away from the house, it'll merit nothing more than a quick question - "Hey, you see anything?" If they see two guys in red jackets walking away, well, those guys should be questioned.

    Change every instance of "red jacket" to "black skin" in that paragraph, and the point still stands. Which is to say that skin color is very relevant as a physical characteristic useful to ID a suspect. That's not profiling.

    But but dat's racist, they chose to wear red jackets, they didn't choose to be black or white. </sarcasm>


    It's not "racial profiling" - targeting random strangers for searches or harassment because of their race. On the other hand, if it was a similar-in-dress white dude doing the same thing, it seems very unlikely that A) the onlooker would have been in such a rush to call, or B) the cops would have come so fast.

    The real issue is that we let cops get away with being such dickheads to people.

    kaliyama on
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    iTunesIsEviliTunesIsEvil Cornfield? Cornfield.Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Wow, that statement differs from the police report a bit. Surprise, surprise.

    iTunesIsEvil on
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    Grid SystemGrid System Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    If the lady had reported that there were two guys with red jackets breaking in, it would've given a useful physical description to go off of. If the police show up and there's a couple of guys in jeans and blue sweaters walking away from the house, it'll merit nothing more than a quick question - "Hey, you see anything?" If they see two guys in red jackets walking away, well, those guys should be questioned.

    Change every instance of "red jacket" to "black skin" in that paragraph, and the point still stands. Which is to say that skin color is very relevant as a physical characteristic useful to ID a suspect. That's not profiling.
    The fact that you can invent a rationale for the choice of description does not mean that your story is the real one. It also doesn't negate the broader contextual factors that come into play when dealing with issues of race. Unfortunately we don't live in anything even approaching a post-racial world where skin colour is just another descriptor that can be substituted for clothing colour.

    Grid System on
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    TexiKenTexiKen Dammit! That fish really got me!Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    lolz trust a lawyer?

    That letter ignores the part where Gates, instead of talking with the cop when they first enter the house, picks up the phone to call someone (probably the lawyer) and asking for the cop and police chief's name.

    kaliyama wrote: »
    The real issue is that we let cops get away with being such dickheads to people.

    While that may be true for some cops, Gates was being the dickhead first.

    TexiKen on
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    TachTach Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    I would agree that it wasn't racial profiling, but damned if it didn't turn into "cops abusing their authority".

    -Texiken, put yourself in that guy's place. You just got home from a trip to China- a long flight by any means. Your front door was fubar'd. You're annoyed as hell about having to deal with it and the alarm. Then, a cop comes by and basically accuses you of breaking into your own house.

    Can you blame him for being a crank about it?

    Tach on
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    DocDoc Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited July 2009
    The cops showing up and questioning him was okay. Them insisting on seeing ID was also fine. Them arresting him after the establishing that Gates had every right to be there, not so much.

    In America, you aren't supposed to be arrested just because a cop doesn't like the cut of your jib.

    Doc on
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    lazegamerlazegamer The magnanimous cyberspaceRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    If the lady had reported that there were two guys with red jackets breaking in, it would've given a useful physical description to go off of. If the police show up and there's a couple of guys in jeans and blue sweaters walking away from the house, it'll merit nothing more than a quick question - "Hey, you see anything?" If they see two guys in red jackets walking away, well, those guys should be questioned.

    Change every instance of "red jacket" to "black skin" in that paragraph, and the point still stands. Which is to say that skin color is very relevant as a physical characteristic useful to ID a suspect. That's not profiling.
    The fact that you can invent a rationale for the choice of description does not mean that your story is the real one. It also doesn't negate the broader contextual factors that come into play when dealing with issues of race. Unfortunately we don't live in anything even approaching a post-racial world where skin colour is just another descriptor that can be substituted for clothing colour.

    If describing them as black was superfluous information, I might agree with you. However, since it was an accurate descriptor for identifying two individuals engaging in somewhat suspicious behavior, I think your sensitivity here unjustified.

    lazegamer on
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    PantsBPantsB Fake Thomas Jefferson Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Feral wrote: »
    Disorderly conduct? Really?

    Whether the cops were racist or not, they were certainly assholes.

    And we have a winner.

    Professor was being an ass, and there are few groups of people more able to be assholes than police offices (summon the power of Than!).

    As for being a part of a trend of racial profiling, this is Cambridge. This is the town in the state that voted for George McGovern that people semi-seriously call the People's Republic of Cambridge. The moderates are liberal Democrats. The conservatives are populist or progressive Democrats. The liberals... well they make D&D look like Fox News enthusiasts.

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    DocDoc Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited July 2009
    TexiKen wrote: »
    kaliyama wrote: »
    The real issue is that we let cops get away with being such dickheads to people.

    While that may be true for some cops, Gates was being the dickhead first.

    So? Just being a dickhead is legal.

    Are you suggesting that it's okay for cops to arrest you if they think you're a jerk?

    Doc on
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    TexiKenTexiKen Dammit! That fish really got me!Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    No, but you don't be a dick to someone and expect to not be treated the same in response.

    I'm not a cop so I don't know what warrants a "disorderly conduct" arrest, that is at the discretion of the cop.

    TexiKen on
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    sterling3763sterling3763 Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Doc wrote: »
    The cops showing up and questioning him was okay. Them insisting on seeing ID was also fine. Them arresting him after the establishing that Gates had every right to be there, not so much.

    In America, you aren't supposed to be arrested just because a cop doesn't like the cut of your jib.

    QFT. Once he'd seen valid ID, no matter how much of a dick the guy was, the cop shouldve just left. It's not illegal to be impolite.

    sterling3763 on
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    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    TexiKen wrote: »
    lolz trust a lawyer?

    That letter ignores the part where Gates, instead of talking with the cop when they first enter the house, picks up the phone to call someone (probably the lawyer) and asking for the cop and police chief's name.

    kaliyama wrote: »
    The real issue is that we let cops get away with being such dickheads to people.

    While that may be true for some cops, Gates was being the dickhead first.


    The letter mentions he was calling the Harvard Real Estate Office to get his door fixed, and that he asked multiple times for name and badge number. Also, it's a cop's job to be professional. Especially when on duty.

    Fencingsax on
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    ChanusChanus Harbinger of the Spicy Rooster Apocalypse The Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Where do you live?

    Winnipeg.

    Go Jets!

    Sorry. =)

    Chanus on
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    iTunesIsEviliTunesIsEvil Cornfield? Cornfield.Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    TexiKen wrote: »
    No, but you don't be a dick to someone and expect to not be treated the same in response.
    When I want to be a dick the best I can do is to yell at them and call them racist.
    When the police want to be a dick they can pull a "hehheh, wanna spend a night in jail?"

    The "you were a dick first" argument is bullshit because things aren't so evenly matched. And I don't subscribe to the theory that I should respect the police because they can fuck with me.

    iTunesIsEvil on
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    ChanusChanus Harbinger of the Spicy Rooster Apocalypse The Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Edit: Finish reading, then post. Duhr.

    Chanus on
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    SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    TexiKen wrote: »
    No, but you don't be a dick to someone and expect to not be treated the same in response.

    I'm not a cop so I don't know what warrants a "disorderly conduct" arrest, that is at the discretion of the cop.

    Do you think Gates was out of line to ask for the cops name and badge number? My understanding is that cops are required to provide that information when asked.

    Sentry on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
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    LoserForHireXLoserForHireX Philosopher King The AcademyRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Doc wrote: »
    TexiKen wrote: »
    kaliyama wrote: »
    The real issue is that we let cops get away with being such dickheads to people.

    While that may be true for some cops, Gates was being the dickhead first.

    So? Just being a dickhead is legal.

    Are you suggesting that it's okay for cops to arrest you if they think you're a jerk?

    Wasn't he shouting at them on his front lawn and causing a disturbance?

    If disorderly conduct is against the law there, it certainly seems like the guy was being disorderly. If you want to say that he wasn't being disorderly, then what does it mean to be engaging in disorderly conduct? If it isn't thumbing your nose at the police (upsetting social order) then what is it?

    LoserForHireX on
    "The only way to get rid of a temptation is to give into it." - Oscar Wilde
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    ChanusChanus Harbinger of the Spicy Rooster Apocalypse The Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    ITT: People need to look up the definition of "Racial Profiling"?

    Saying, "The perpetrator was black" is not Racial Profiling.

    Chanus on
    Allegedly a voice of reason.
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    TexiKenTexiKen Dammit! That fish really got me!Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Sentry wrote: »
    TexiKen wrote: »
    No, but you don't be a dick to someone and expect to not be treated the same in response.

    I'm not a cop so I don't know what warrants a "disorderly conduct" arrest, that is at the discretion of the cop.

    Do you think Gates was out of line to ask for the cops name and badge number? My understanding is that cops are required to provide that information when asked.

    Nothing wrong in asking for that information. And according to the police report, the cop did provide it multiple times.

    TexiKen on
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    SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Doc wrote: »
    TexiKen wrote: »
    kaliyama wrote: »
    The real issue is that we let cops get away with being such dickheads to people.

    While that may be true for some cops, Gates was being the dickhead first.

    So? Just being a dickhead is legal.

    Are you suggesting that it's okay for cops to arrest you if they think you're a jerk?

    Wasn't he shouting at them on his front lawn and causing a disturbance?

    If disorderly conduct is against the law there, it certainly seems like the guy was being disorderly. If you want to say that he wasn't being disorderly, then what does it mean to be engaging in disorderly conduct? If it isn't thumbing your nose at the police (upsetting social order) then what is it?

    was that what caused the disturbance? or was it the presence of unwelcomed police officers who were on private property that had already been verified as belonging to the person they were "interviewing" via two forms of identification, one of which was a valid state drivers license.

    (this is going by Gates version of the story, of course)
    TexiKen wrote:
    Nothing wrong in asking for that information. And according to the police report, the cop did provide it multiple times.

    Well, right now it's just a mess of whose telling the truth. Frankly, both sides are probably lying to some extent.

    Sentry on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
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    QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    The fact that you can invent a rationale for the choice of description does not mean that your story is the real one. It also doesn't negate the broader contextual factors that come into play when dealing with issues of race. Unfortunately we don't live in anything even approaching a post-racial world where skin colour is just another descriptor that can be substituted for clothing colour.
    Skin color is a visible, valid descriptor. It isn't racial profiling when you say "Hey that black guy over there just punched someone" any more than "Tiger Woods is one of the most prominent black athletes".

    More so, it's the description the police were given by the witness via the operator. They had jack all to do with the creation.

    Quid on
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    Element BrianElement Brian Peanut Butter Shill Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Dudes being a dick. As far as the cops arresting him for disordely conduct, it probably seems wierd to us right now looking back on it. But in the situation at the time, it probably made a lot more sense. I imagine the guy getting in their faces and literally screaming at them, probably with some discharge of saliva.

    Its not Racial Profiling. I know this because the same thing has (kinda) happened to me, and I'm white. If a cop see's someone trying to break into a car, they are gonna question them, regardless of skin color. Its what they do, its what they are supposed to do. If the cop had seen someone trying to force their way into a house, he would question them, regardless of skin color. Checking ID's just to make sure the person owns the house makes perfect sense. If I were a cop, I'd rather be sure than take the chance of letting some criminal get away.

    Element Brian on
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    lazegamerlazegamer The magnanimous cyberspaceRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Dudes being a dick. As far as the cops arresting him for disordely conduct, it probably seems wierd to us right now looking back on it. But in the situation at the time, it probably made a lot more sense. I imagine the guy getting in their faces and literally screaming at them, probably with some discharge of saliva.

    [anecdote snipped]

    See, I imagined that he was breathing fire and singed the cops eyebrows, hence my confusion when they didn't file assault charges.

    It's difficult enough to distinguish fact from reality from first hand accounts without inventing new parts to make it more interesting.

    lazegamer on
    I would download a car.
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