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Racial Profiling or Rightful Investigation?

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    DocDoc Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited July 2009
    If disorderly conduct is against the law there, it certainly seems like the guy was being disorderly. If you want to say that he wasn't being disorderly, then what does it mean to be engaging in disorderly conduct? If it isn't thumbing your nose at the police (upsetting social order) then what is it?

    All the cops had to do was say "Sorry about the confusion sir, have a good night," and walk away.

    That would have ended the situation. Instead, it became a nationally-known event and a guy who didn't do anything illegal got put in jail for the night.

    Way to protect and serve, guys.

    Doc on
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    ChanusChanus Harbinger of the Spicy Rooster Apocalypse The Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Doc wrote: »
    If disorderly conduct is against the law there, it certainly seems like the guy was being disorderly. If you want to say that he wasn't being disorderly, then what does it mean to be engaging in disorderly conduct? If it isn't thumbing your nose at the police (upsetting social order) then what is it?

    All the cops had to do was say "Sorry about the confusion sir, have a good night," and walk away.

    That would have ended the situation. Instead, it became a nationally-known event and a guy who didn't do anything illegal got put in jail for the night.

    Way to protect and serve, guys.

    It seems you're implying the man was not only completely innocent (on the B&E he was, sure), but acted like a mature adult of sound composure...

    Chanus on
    Allegedly a voice of reason.
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    SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Chanus wrote: »
    Doc wrote: »
    If disorderly conduct is against the law there, it certainly seems like the guy was being disorderly. If you want to say that he wasn't being disorderly, then what does it mean to be engaging in disorderly conduct? If it isn't thumbing your nose at the police (upsetting social order) then what is it?

    All the cops had to do was say "Sorry about the confusion sir, have a good night," and walk away.

    That would have ended the situation. Instead, it became a nationally-known event and a guy who didn't do anything illegal got put in jail for the night.

    Way to protect and serve, guys.

    It seems you're implying the man was not only completely innocent (on the B&E he was, sure), but acted like a mature adult of sound composure...

    It doesn't matter. He could have thrown a temper tantrum in his foyer, kicking his feet and pounding the walls, and been well within his rights. Unless someone can find me a law that says you can't yell at the cops.

    Sentry on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
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    ChanusChanus Harbinger of the Spicy Rooster Apocalypse The Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Sentry wrote: »
    It doesn't matter. He could have thrown a temper tantrum in his foyer, kicking his feet and pounding the walls, and been well within his rights. Unless someone can find me a law that says you can't yell at the cops.

    I'm not saying what they did was perfectly acceptable... I'm saying when you play with matches... well...

    Chanus on
    Allegedly a voice of reason.
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    lazegamerlazegamer The magnanimous cyberspaceRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Sentry wrote: »
    Chanus wrote: »
    Doc wrote: »
    If disorderly conduct is against the law there, it certainly seems like the guy was being disorderly. If you want to say that he wasn't being disorderly, then what does it mean to be engaging in disorderly conduct? If it isn't thumbing your nose at the police (upsetting social order) then what is it?

    All the cops had to do was say "Sorry about the confusion sir, have a good night," and walk away.

    That would have ended the situation. Instead, it became a nationally-known event and a guy who didn't do anything illegal got put in jail for the night.

    Way to protect and serve, guys.

    It seems you're implying the man was not only completely innocent (on the B&E he was, sure), but acted like a mature adult of sound composure...

    It doesn't matter. He could have thrown a temper tantrum in his foyer, kicking his feet and pounding the walls, and been well within his rights. Unless someone can find me a law that says you can't yell at the cops.

    Disorderly Conduct ?

    If his yelling at the cops disturbed the peace, then he broke the law.

    lazegamer on
    I would download a car.
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    QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Chanus wrote: »
    Sentry wrote: »
    It doesn't matter. He could have thrown a temper tantrum in his foyer, kicking his feet and pounding the walls, and been well within his rights. Unless someone can find me a law that says you can't yell at the cops.

    I'm not saying what they did was perfectly acceptable... I'm saying when you play with matches... well...
    There's no playing with matches here. You don't get to arrest people for being assholes on their property.

    Quid on
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    SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Chanus wrote: »
    Sentry wrote: »
    It doesn't matter. He could have thrown a temper tantrum in his foyer, kicking his feet and pounding the walls, and been well within his rights. Unless someone can find me a law that says you can't yell at the cops.

    I'm not saying what they did was perfectly acceptable... I'm saying when you play with matches... well...

    I always struggle with that. On the one hand, people do need to take some responsibility for their actions. On the other hand, I've always felt police need to be held to the higher standard. If there is any job that practically requires a turn-the-other-cheek mentality, it's being a police officer.

    Sentry on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
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    PeregrineFalconPeregrineFalcon Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Also, it has been four pages and no one has referenced this classic piece of Internet Video History?

    How NOT To Get Your Ass Kicked By The Police

    Thumbnail is astute - "Be Polite"

    PeregrineFalcon on
    Looking for a DX:HR OnLive code for my kid brother.
    Can trade TF2 items or whatever else you're interested in. PM me.
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    ChanusChanus Harbinger of the Spicy Rooster Apocalypse The Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    lazegamer wrote: »
    Disorderly Conduct ?

    If his yelling at the cops disturbed the peace, then he broke the law.

    It would take quite a lot for that to be the case from within his own home. The fact that he went outside with them is what tipped the scale in this case.

    I'm not arguing whether or not he may have been coerced outside, as I wasn't there.

    Chanus on
    Allegedly a voice of reason.
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    SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    lazegamer wrote: »
    Sentry wrote: »
    Chanus wrote: »
    Doc wrote: »
    If disorderly conduct is against the law there, it certainly seems like the guy was being disorderly. If you want to say that he wasn't being disorderly, then what does it mean to be engaging in disorderly conduct? If it isn't thumbing your nose at the police (upsetting social order) then what is it?

    All the cops had to do was say "Sorry about the confusion sir, have a good night," and walk away.

    That would have ended the situation. Instead, it became a nationally-known event and a guy who didn't do anything illegal got put in jail for the night.

    Way to protect and serve, guys.

    It seems you're implying the man was not only completely innocent (on the B&E he was, sure), but acted like a mature adult of sound composure...

    It doesn't matter. He could have thrown a temper tantrum in his foyer, kicking his feet and pounding the walls, and been well within his rights. Unless someone can find me a law that says you can't yell at the cops.

    Disorderly Conduct ?

    If his yelling at the cops disturbed the peace, then he broke the law.

    Only when they forced him out on to his lawn for no reason.

    Sentry on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
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    ChanusChanus Harbinger of the Spicy Rooster Apocalypse The Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Sentry wrote: »
    I always struggle with that. On the one hand, people do need to take some responsibility for their actions. On the other hand, I've always felt police need to be held to the higher standard. If there is any job that practically requires a turn-the-other-cheek mentality, it's being a police officer.

    I'm not against the idea that police officers should be held to a higher standard...

    I still don't support some dude being an asshole, though.

    Chanus on
    Allegedly a voice of reason.
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    lazegamerlazegamer The magnanimous cyberspaceRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Sentry wrote: »
    lazegamer wrote: »
    Sentry wrote: »
    It doesn't matter. He could have thrown a temper tantrum in his foyer, kicking his feet and pounding the walls, and been well within his rights. Unless someone can find me a law that says you can't yell at the cops.

    Disorderly Conduct ?

    If his yelling at the cops disturbed the peace, then he broke the law.

    Only when they forced him out on to his lawn for no reason.

    I'm not arguing that they should have filed the charge (although I thought I had read that he followed them out when they were leaving to yell at them), just countering the broad claim that yelling at the police isn't illegal. In certain situations, it is.

    lazegamer on
    I would download a car.
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    BubbaTBubbaT Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    TexiKen wrote: »
    No, but you don't be a dick to someone and expect to not be treated the same in response.

    I'm not a cop so I don't know what warrants a "disorderly conduct" arrest, that is at the discretion of the cop.

    Cops should be held to a higher standard of conduct than "random guy on the street."

    BubbaT on
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    SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Chanus wrote: »
    Sentry wrote: »
    I always struggle with that. On the one hand, people do need to take some responsibility for their actions. On the other hand, I've always felt police need to be held to the higher standard. If there is any job that practically requires a turn-the-other-cheek mentality, it's being a police officer.

    I'm not against the idea that police officers should be held to a higher standard...

    I still don't support some dude being an asshole, though.

    Well, I don't think they are mutually exclusive. I don't think many people in this thread have not agreed that Gates was likely being a jerk.

    Sentry on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
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    Grid SystemGrid System Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Quid wrote: »
    The fact that you can invent a rationale for the choice of description does not mean that your story is the real one. It also doesn't negate the broader contextual factors that come into play when dealing with issues of race. Unfortunately we don't live in anything even approaching a post-racial world where skin colour is just another descriptor that can be substituted for clothing colour.
    Skin color is a visible, valid descriptor. It isn't racial profiling when you say "Hey that black guy over there just punched someone" any more than "Tiger Woods is one of the most prominent black athletes".

    More so, it's the description the police were given by the witness via the operator. They had jack all to do with the creation.

    Racial Profiling extends beyond the DWB notion of the term.
    The ACLU wrote:
    What Is Racial Profiling?

    Racial Profiling is any police or private security practice in which a person is treated as a suspect because of his or her race, ethnicity, nationality or religion. This occurs when police investigate, stop, frisk, search or use force against a person based on such characteristics instead of evidence of a person's criminal behavior.

    Now, I don't believe that there was sufficient evidence of criminal behaviour to warrant investigation (see: here and here) which leads me to believe that the race of Professor Gates and his driver was considered relevant to the situation and levels of suspicion of both the initial caller and the police officer. That makes it racial profiling. If you think that his behaviour alone was sufficient to warrant investigation, that's fair enough. The difficulty here is that we don't have any comparative data to work with, so it's impossible to know whether similar actions by while folks are treated in the same way or not.

    Saying, "that black guy punched someone" is not racial profiling because the operative element in creating suspicion isn't "black", it's "punched someone".

    Grid System on
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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Those cops need to grow a thicker skin. Getting yelled at is part of the job.

    Shit, I had WAY WAY worse stuff yelled at me while I was a lifeguard.

    shryke on
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    ChanusChanus Harbinger of the Spicy Rooster Apocalypse The Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Saying, "that black guy punched someone" is not racial profiling because the operative element in creating suspicion isn't "black", it's "punched someone".

    Yet, "two black men are breaking into that house" is fundamentally different?

    Chanus on
    Allegedly a voice of reason.
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    lazegamerlazegamer The magnanimous cyberspaceRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    I dare say that most people would consider wandering about outside a house and attempting to shoulder open a door suspicious enough behavior to warrant investigation.

    lazegamer on
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    Grid SystemGrid System Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Chanus wrote: »
    Saying, "that black guy punched someone" is not racial profiling because the operative element in creating suspicion isn't "black", it's "punched someone".

    Yet, "two black men are breaking into that house" is fundamentally different?
    Boy, it sure must be convenient to be able to change the facts to fit your position.

    Grid System on
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    ChanusChanus Harbinger of the Spicy Rooster Apocalypse The Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Chanus wrote: »
    Saying, "that black guy punched someone" is not racial profiling because the operative element in creating suspicion isn't "black", it's "punched someone".

    Yet, "two black men are breaking into that house" is fundamentally different?
    Boy, it sure must be convenient to be able to change the facts to fit your position.

    Do what?

    Chanus on
    Allegedly a voice of reason.
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    TachTach Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    To everyone taking the "well, Gates was being a jerk" stance, I again say- put yourself in his shoes.

    14+ hour plane flight. Getting home, your front door is jammed. The alarm goes off. Go around back and shut it off. Finally get in, call repair guy. COP shows up and accuses you of breaking and entering, demanding ID. Calls campus cops.

    Would all that frustrate you a bit, or would you be all "oh, hey, sorry officer. Here's my ID and everything. Sorry to be any trouble."

    Tach on
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    ChanusChanus Harbinger of the Spicy Rooster Apocalypse The Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Tach wrote: »
    To everyone taking the "well, Gates was being a jerk" stance, I again say- put yourself in his shoes.

    I can understand the frustration... but that doesn't mean there aren't consequences to how we choose to deal with it.

    Chanus on
    Allegedly a voice of reason.
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    citizen059citizen059 hello my name is citizen I'm from the InternetRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Tach wrote: »
    Would all that frustrate you a bit, or would you be all "oh, hey, sorry officer. Here's my ID and everything. Sorry to be any trouble."

    I'd be frustrated, sure.

    But I still wouldn't yell at the cops. All conversation with a police officer is a calm, professional "Yes sir/No sir". No exceptions. That's just me though.

    citizen059 on
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    Grid SystemGrid System Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    lazegamer wrote: »
    I dare say that most people would consider wandering about outside a house and attempting to shoulder open a door suspicious enough behavior to warrant investigation.
    Maybe. Hard to say without data though, and my experience would indicate otherwise.

    Grid System on
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    YallYall Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    citizen059 wrote: »
    Tach wrote: »
    Would all that frustrate you a bit, or would you be all "oh, hey, sorry officer. Here's my ID and everything. Sorry to be any trouble."

    I'd be frustrated, sure.

    But I still wouldn't yell at the cops. All conversation with a police officer is a calm, professional "Yes sir/No sir". No exceptions. That's just me though.

    It shouldn't have to be that way though, that's the point.

    Personally, I never give any lip to cops because I know the consequences can be bad. That doesn't mean they should infringe upon my legal rights if I'm a dick.

    That being said - it's not racial profiling.

    Yall on
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    QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Now, I don't believe that there was sufficient evidence of criminal behaviour to warrant investigation (see: here and here) which leads me to believe that the race of Professor Gates and his driver was considered relevant to the situation and levels of suspicion of both the initial caller and the police officer.
    The caller said she saw two black people force entry into a home.

    Please explain how "Two black guys forced their way into a house" is racial profiling but "A black guy punched someone" isn't.

    Quid on
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    RustRust __BANNED USERS regular
    edited July 2009
    There's also a reasonable chance that the cops were just making shit up and he was really trying to be civil with them.

    Rust on
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    QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    lazegamer wrote: »
    I dare say that most people would consider wandering about outside a house and attempting to shoulder open a door suspicious enough behavior to warrant investigation.
    Maybe. Hard to say without data though, and my experience would indicate otherwise.
    Your experience in your town with your cops. Different places hae different norms and procedures.

    Quid on
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    PantsBPantsB Fake Thomas Jefferson Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Rust wrote: »
    There's also a reasonable chance that the cops were just making shit up and he was really trying to be civil with them.

    Eh there were witnesses that he was yelling at the very least
    GatesArrest.jpg.jpg

    Guy was being a dick, cop was being a dick. Being a cop means you can be more effective in your dickery.

    PantsB on
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    tallgeezetallgeeze Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    wow, handcuffs in front. Definitely a "you need to calm the fuck down" ride to the station.

    tallgeeze on
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    Grid SystemGrid System Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Quid wrote: »
    Now, I don't believe that there was sufficient evidence of criminal behaviour to warrant investigation (see: here and here) which leads me to believe that the race of Professor Gates and his driver was considered relevant to the situation and levels of suspicion of both the initial caller and the police officer.
    The caller said she saw two black people force entry into a home.

    Please explain how "Two black guys forced their way into a house" is racial profiling but "A black guy punched someone" isn't.
    For one thing, that's not what was said. For another, punching someone is a prima facie ground to suppose illegality, while using some small amount of force in the manner actually described by the caller to get a door open isn't.

    Grid System on
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    iTunesIsEviliTunesIsEvil Cornfield? Cornfield.Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    tallgeeze wrote: »
    wow, handcuffs in front. Definitely a "you need to calm the fuck down" ride to the station.
    They originally had him cuffed behind the back, but when he complained one officer asked another to switch them to the front.

    iTunesIsEvil on
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    Grid SystemGrid System Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Quid wrote: »
    Your experience in your town with your cops. Different places hae different norms and procedures.
    Of course. I guess people are just more sensible here.

    Grid System on
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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Quid wrote: »
    Your experience in your town with your cops. Different places hae different norms and procedures.
    Of course. I guess people are just more sensible here.

    I know I'D be much happier if my neighbors just dismissed the random people trying to bust my door open.

    shryke on
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    Grid SystemGrid System Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    I'm glad we're on the same page.

    Grid System on
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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    I'm glad we're on the same page.

    Yes, but that page doesn't say what you think it does. Mostly, it's about you. I won't repeat it, as my mother raised me to not call people those kind of things.

    shryke on
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    ElJeffeElJeffe Not actually a mod. Roaming the streets, waving his gun around.Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited July 2009
    I'm losing track of where exactly the snark begins and ends on this page.

    ElJeffe on
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    DocDoc Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited July 2009
    Chanus wrote: »
    Sentry wrote: »
    It doesn't matter. He could have thrown a temper tantrum in his foyer, kicking his feet and pounding the walls, and been well within his rights. Unless someone can find me a law that says you can't yell at the cops.

    I'm not saying what they did was perfectly acceptable... I'm saying when you play with matches... well...

    ...you get charges against you dropped and the police force opened up to having a civil suit filed against them?

    I'm not sure that's how the phrase goes.

    Doc on
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    ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited July 2009
    PantsB wrote: »
    Rust wrote: »
    There's also a reasonable chance that the cops were just making shit up and he was really trying to be civil with them.

    Eh there were witnesses that he was yelling at the very least
    GatesArrest.jpg.jpg

    Guy was being a dick, cop was being a dick. Being a cop means you can be more effective in your dickery.

    He looks like he just saw a mouse or won the national clearinghouse.

    Also, do we know what kind of infection he has? The way it was used in response to the allegation of yelling makes me suspect ear.

    Scalfin on
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    LoveIsUnityLoveIsUnity Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Do they generally send that many police officers to a 911 call? I honestly don't know, but it looks like a lot of fucking cops there for something that wouldn't warrant backup.

    LoveIsUnity on
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