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If disorderly conduct is against the law there, it certainly seems like the guy was being disorderly. If you want to say that he wasn't being disorderly, then what does it mean to be engaging in disorderly conduct? If it isn't thumbing your nose at the police (upsetting social order) then what is it?
All the cops had to do was say "Sorry about the confusion sir, have a good night," and walk away.
That would have ended the situation. Instead, it became a nationally-known event and a guy who didn't do anything illegal got put in jail for the night.
Way to protect and serve, guys.
Doc on
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ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered User, Moderatormod
If disorderly conduct is against the law there, it certainly seems like the guy was being disorderly. If you want to say that he wasn't being disorderly, then what does it mean to be engaging in disorderly conduct? If it isn't thumbing your nose at the police (upsetting social order) then what is it?
All the cops had to do was say "Sorry about the confusion sir, have a good night," and walk away.
That would have ended the situation. Instead, it became a nationally-known event and a guy who didn't do anything illegal got put in jail for the night.
Way to protect and serve, guys.
It seems you're implying the man was not only completely innocent (on the B&E he was, sure), but acted like a mature adult of sound composure...
If disorderly conduct is against the law there, it certainly seems like the guy was being disorderly. If you want to say that he wasn't being disorderly, then what does it mean to be engaging in disorderly conduct? If it isn't thumbing your nose at the police (upsetting social order) then what is it?
All the cops had to do was say "Sorry about the confusion sir, have a good night," and walk away.
That would have ended the situation. Instead, it became a nationally-known event and a guy who didn't do anything illegal got put in jail for the night.
Way to protect and serve, guys.
It seems you're implying the man was not only completely innocent (on the B&E he was, sure), but acted like a mature adult of sound composure...
It doesn't matter. He could have thrown a temper tantrum in his foyer, kicking his feet and pounding the walls, and been well within his rights. Unless someone can find me a law that says you can't yell at the cops.
Sentry on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
wrote:
When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
0
ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered User, Moderatormod
It doesn't matter. He could have thrown a temper tantrum in his foyer, kicking his feet and pounding the walls, and been well within his rights. Unless someone can find me a law that says you can't yell at the cops.
I'm not saying what they did was perfectly acceptable... I'm saying when you play with matches... well...
If disorderly conduct is against the law there, it certainly seems like the guy was being disorderly. If you want to say that he wasn't being disorderly, then what does it mean to be engaging in disorderly conduct? If it isn't thumbing your nose at the police (upsetting social order) then what is it?
All the cops had to do was say "Sorry about the confusion sir, have a good night," and walk away.
That would have ended the situation. Instead, it became a nationally-known event and a guy who didn't do anything illegal got put in jail for the night.
Way to protect and serve, guys.
It seems you're implying the man was not only completely innocent (on the B&E he was, sure), but acted like a mature adult of sound composure...
It doesn't matter. He could have thrown a temper tantrum in his foyer, kicking his feet and pounding the walls, and been well within his rights. Unless someone can find me a law that says you can't yell at the cops.
It doesn't matter. He could have thrown a temper tantrum in his foyer, kicking his feet and pounding the walls, and been well within his rights. Unless someone can find me a law that says you can't yell at the cops.
I'm not saying what they did was perfectly acceptable... I'm saying when you play with matches... well...
There's no playing with matches here. You don't get to arrest people for being assholes on their property.
It doesn't matter. He could have thrown a temper tantrum in his foyer, kicking his feet and pounding the walls, and been well within his rights. Unless someone can find me a law that says you can't yell at the cops.
I'm not saying what they did was perfectly acceptable... I'm saying when you play with matches... well...
I always struggle with that. On the one hand, people do need to take some responsibility for their actions. On the other hand, I've always felt police need to be held to the higher standard. If there is any job that practically requires a turn-the-other-cheek mentality, it's being a police officer.
Sentry on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
wrote:
When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
If his yelling at the cops disturbed the peace, then he broke the law.
It would take quite a lot for that to be the case from within his own home. The fact that he went outside with them is what tipped the scale in this case.
I'm not arguing whether or not he may have been coerced outside, as I wasn't there.
If disorderly conduct is against the law there, it certainly seems like the guy was being disorderly. If you want to say that he wasn't being disorderly, then what does it mean to be engaging in disorderly conduct? If it isn't thumbing your nose at the police (upsetting social order) then what is it?
All the cops had to do was say "Sorry about the confusion sir, have a good night," and walk away.
That would have ended the situation. Instead, it became a nationally-known event and a guy who didn't do anything illegal got put in jail for the night.
Way to protect and serve, guys.
It seems you're implying the man was not only completely innocent (on the B&E he was, sure), but acted like a mature adult of sound composure...
It doesn't matter. He could have thrown a temper tantrum in his foyer, kicking his feet and pounding the walls, and been well within his rights. Unless someone can find me a law that says you can't yell at the cops.
If his yelling at the cops disturbed the peace, then he broke the law.
Only when they forced him out on to his lawn for no reason.
Sentry on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
wrote:
When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
0
ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered User, Moderatormod
I always struggle with that. On the one hand, people do need to take some responsibility for their actions. On the other hand, I've always felt police need to be held to the higher standard. If there is any job that practically requires a turn-the-other-cheek mentality, it's being a police officer.
I'm not against the idea that police officers should be held to a higher standard...
I still don't support some dude being an asshole, though.
It doesn't matter. He could have thrown a temper tantrum in his foyer, kicking his feet and pounding the walls, and been well within his rights. Unless someone can find me a law that says you can't yell at the cops.
If his yelling at the cops disturbed the peace, then he broke the law.
Only when they forced him out on to his lawn for no reason.
I'm not arguing that they should have filed the charge (although I thought I had read that he followed them out when they were leaving to yell at them), just countering the broad claim that yelling at the police isn't illegal. In certain situations, it is.
I always struggle with that. On the one hand, people do need to take some responsibility for their actions. On the other hand, I've always felt police need to be held to the higher standard. If there is any job that practically requires a turn-the-other-cheek mentality, it's being a police officer.
I'm not against the idea that police officers should be held to a higher standard...
I still don't support some dude being an asshole, though.
Well, I don't think they are mutually exclusive. I don't think many people in this thread have not agreed that Gates was likely being a jerk.
Sentry on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
wrote:
When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
The fact that you can invent a rationale for the choice of description does not mean that your story is the real one. It also doesn't negate the broader contextual factors that come into play when dealing with issues of race. Unfortunately we don't live in anything even approaching a post-racial world where skin colour is just another descriptor that can be substituted for clothing colour.
Skin color is a visible, valid descriptor. It isn't racial profiling when you say "Hey that black guy over there just punched someone" any more than "Tiger Woods is one of the most prominent black athletes".
More so, it's the description the police were given by the witness via the operator. They had jack all to do with the creation.
Racial Profiling extends beyond the DWB notion of the term.
Racial Profiling is any police or private security practice in which a person is treated as a suspect because of his or her race, ethnicity, nationality or religion. This occurs when police investigate, stop, frisk, search or use force against a person based on such characteristics instead of evidence of a person's criminal behavior.
Now, I don't believe that there was sufficient evidence of criminal behaviour to warrant investigation (see: here and here) which leads me to believe that the race of Professor Gates and his driver was considered relevant to the situation and levels of suspicion of both the initial caller and the police officer. That makes it racial profiling. If you think that his behaviour alone was sufficient to warrant investigation, that's fair enough. The difficulty here is that we don't have any comparative data to work with, so it's impossible to know whether similar actions by while folks are treated in the same way or not.
Saying, "that black guy punched someone" is not racial profiling because the operative element in creating suspicion isn't "black", it's "punched someone".
Saying, "that black guy punched someone" is not racial profiling because the operative element in creating suspicion isn't "black", it's "punched someone".
Yet, "two black men are breaking into that house" is fundamentally different?
I dare say that most people would consider wandering about outside a house and attempting to shoulder open a door suspicious enough behavior to warrant investigation.
Saying, "that black guy punched someone" is not racial profiling because the operative element in creating suspicion isn't "black", it's "punched someone".
Yet, "two black men are breaking into that house" is fundamentally different?
Boy, it sure must be convenient to be able to change the facts to fit your position.
Grid System on
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ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered User, Moderatormod
Saying, "that black guy punched someone" is not racial profiling because the operative element in creating suspicion isn't "black", it's "punched someone".
Yet, "two black men are breaking into that house" is fundamentally different?
Boy, it sure must be convenient to be able to change the facts to fit your position.
To everyone taking the "well, Gates was being a jerk" stance, I again say- put yourself in his shoes.
14+ hour plane flight. Getting home, your front door is jammed. The alarm goes off. Go around back and shut it off. Finally get in, call repair guy. COP shows up and accuses you of breaking and entering, demanding ID. Calls campus cops.
Would all that frustrate you a bit, or would you be all "oh, hey, sorry officer. Here's my ID and everything. Sorry to be any trouble."
Tach on
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ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered User, Moderatormod
Would all that frustrate you a bit, or would you be all "oh, hey, sorry officer. Here's my ID and everything. Sorry to be any trouble."
I'd be frustrated, sure.
But I still wouldn't yell at the cops. All conversation with a police officer is a calm, professional "Yes sir/No sir". No exceptions. That's just me though.
I dare say that most people would consider wandering about outside a house and attempting to shoulder open a door suspicious enough behavior to warrant investigation.
Maybe. Hard to say without data though, and my experience would indicate otherwise.
Would all that frustrate you a bit, or would you be all "oh, hey, sorry officer. Here's my ID and everything. Sorry to be any trouble."
I'd be frustrated, sure.
But I still wouldn't yell at the cops. All conversation with a police officer is a calm, professional "Yes sir/No sir". No exceptions. That's just me though.
It shouldn't have to be that way though, that's the point.
Personally, I never give any lip to cops because I know the consequences can be bad. That doesn't mean they should infringe upon my legal rights if I'm a dick.
Now, I don't believe that there was sufficient evidence of criminal behaviour to warrant investigation (see: here and here) which leads me to believe that the race of Professor Gates and his driver was considered relevant to the situation and levels of suspicion of both the initial caller and the police officer.
The caller said she saw two black people force entry into a home.
Please explain how "Two black guys forced their way into a house" is racial profiling but "A black guy punched someone" isn't.
I dare say that most people would consider wandering about outside a house and attempting to shoulder open a door suspicious enough behavior to warrant investigation.
Maybe. Hard to say without data though, and my experience would indicate otherwise.
Your experience in your town with your cops. Different places hae different norms and procedures.
Now, I don't believe that there was sufficient evidence of criminal behaviour to warrant investigation (see: here and here) which leads me to believe that the race of Professor Gates and his driver was considered relevant to the situation and levels of suspicion of both the initial caller and the police officer.
The caller said she saw two black people force entry into a home.
Please explain how "Two black guys forced their way into a house" is racial profiling but "A black guy punched someone" isn't.
For one thing, that's not what was said. For another, punching someone is a prima facie ground to suppose illegality, while using some small amount of force in the manner actually described by the caller to get a door open isn't.
Yes, but that page doesn't say what you think it does. Mostly, it's about you. I won't repeat it, as my mother raised me to not call people those kind of things.
I'm losing track of where exactly the snark begins and ends on this page.
ElJeffe on
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
It doesn't matter. He could have thrown a temper tantrum in his foyer, kicking his feet and pounding the walls, and been well within his rights. Unless someone can find me a law that says you can't yell at the cops.
I'm not saying what they did was perfectly acceptable... I'm saying when you play with matches... well...
...you get charges against you dropped and the police force opened up to having a civil suit filed against them?
Do they generally send that many police officers to a 911 call? I honestly don't know, but it looks like a lot of fucking cops there for something that wouldn't warrant backup.
Posts
All the cops had to do was say "Sorry about the confusion sir, have a good night," and walk away.
That would have ended the situation. Instead, it became a nationally-known event and a guy who didn't do anything illegal got put in jail for the night.
Way to protect and serve, guys.
It seems you're implying the man was not only completely innocent (on the B&E he was, sure), but acted like a mature adult of sound composure...
It doesn't matter. He could have thrown a temper tantrum in his foyer, kicking his feet and pounding the walls, and been well within his rights. Unless someone can find me a law that says you can't yell at the cops.
I'm not saying what they did was perfectly acceptable... I'm saying when you play with matches... well...
Disorderly Conduct ?
If his yelling at the cops disturbed the peace, then he broke the law.
I always struggle with that. On the one hand, people do need to take some responsibility for their actions. On the other hand, I've always felt police need to be held to the higher standard. If there is any job that practically requires a turn-the-other-cheek mentality, it's being a police officer.
How NOT To Get Your Ass Kicked By The Police
Thumbnail is astute - "Be Polite"
Can trade TF2 items or whatever else you're interested in. PM me.
It would take quite a lot for that to be the case from within his own home. The fact that he went outside with them is what tipped the scale in this case.
I'm not arguing whether or not he may have been coerced outside, as I wasn't there.
Only when they forced him out on to his lawn for no reason.
I'm not against the idea that police officers should be held to a higher standard...
I still don't support some dude being an asshole, though.
I'm not arguing that they should have filed the charge (although I thought I had read that he followed them out when they were leaving to yell at them), just countering the broad claim that yelling at the police isn't illegal. In certain situations, it is.
Cops should be held to a higher standard of conduct than "random guy on the street."
Well, I don't think they are mutually exclusive. I don't think many people in this thread have not agreed that Gates was likely being a jerk.
Racial Profiling extends beyond the DWB notion of the term.
Now, I don't believe that there was sufficient evidence of criminal behaviour to warrant investigation (see: here and here) which leads me to believe that the race of Professor Gates and his driver was considered relevant to the situation and levels of suspicion of both the initial caller and the police officer. That makes it racial profiling. If you think that his behaviour alone was sufficient to warrant investigation, that's fair enough. The difficulty here is that we don't have any comparative data to work with, so it's impossible to know whether similar actions by while folks are treated in the same way or not.
Saying, "that black guy punched someone" is not racial profiling because the operative element in creating suspicion isn't "black", it's "punched someone".
Shit, I had WAY WAY worse stuff yelled at me while I was a lifeguard.
Yet, "two black men are breaking into that house" is fundamentally different?
Do what?
14+ hour plane flight. Getting home, your front door is jammed. The alarm goes off. Go around back and shut it off. Finally get in, call repair guy. COP shows up and accuses you of breaking and entering, demanding ID. Calls campus cops.
Would all that frustrate you a bit, or would you be all "oh, hey, sorry officer. Here's my ID and everything. Sorry to be any trouble."
I can understand the frustration... but that doesn't mean there aren't consequences to how we choose to deal with it.
I'd be frustrated, sure.
But I still wouldn't yell at the cops. All conversation with a police officer is a calm, professional "Yes sir/No sir". No exceptions. That's just me though.
It shouldn't have to be that way though, that's the point.
Personally, I never give any lip to cops because I know the consequences can be bad. That doesn't mean they should infringe upon my legal rights if I'm a dick.
That being said - it's not racial profiling.
Please explain how "Two black guys forced their way into a house" is racial profiling but "A black guy punched someone" isn't.
Eh there were witnesses that he was yelling at the very least
Guy was being a dick, cop was being a dick. Being a cop means you can be more effective in your dickery.
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
I know I'D be much happier if my neighbors just dismissed the random people trying to bust my door open.
Yes, but that page doesn't say what you think it does. Mostly, it's about you. I won't repeat it, as my mother raised me to not call people those kind of things.
...you get charges against you dropped and the police force opened up to having a civil suit filed against them?
I'm not sure that's how the phrase goes.
He looks like he just saw a mouse or won the national clearinghouse.
Also, do we know what kind of infection he has? The way it was used in response to the allegation of yelling makes me suspect ear.