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Racial Profiling or Rightful Investigation?

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    MorninglordMorninglord I'm tired of being Batman, so today I'll be Owl.Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    When someone is making a moral call "Well the world is just like that yknow" is not a particularly enlightening comment to make.
    Since that's the point of making a moral call, that perhaps how it "just is" is not how it should be.

    An example is "He should have known cops are assholes".
    Practical information, certainly, but not pertinent here.

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    Hockey JohnstonHockey Johnston Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Evander wrote: »
    I guess I'd like to know exactly what Gates was saying.

    Short of a threat of violence, does it matter? Being terse, rude, or even hyperbolic and stupid isn't against the law when you are in your own home.

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    QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    The Cat wrote: »
    Its kind of awesome how many people in here are treating the police report as anything close to factual.

    Oh wait, I meant to say "frustratingly naive".
    Would you like to show where the massive lies are at? Or is this another claim based on "Man, fuck the cops"?

    Quid on
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    PantsBPantsB Fake Thomas Jefferson Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Quid wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    Its kind of awesome how many people in here are treating the police report as anything close to factual.

    Oh wait, I meant to say "frustratingly naive".
    Would you like to show where the massive lies are at? Or is this another claim based on "Man, fuck the cops"?

    Considering the difference between the cop's story and Gates' are relatively small and don't effect the story that much I think its more like "fuck the cops and I'll assume everyone else is too dumb to see it!" Gates admits being rude and yelling. Gates admits refusing to show his ID at first. Gates admits following them out. The differences are on whether the officer refused to give his badge number and whether Gates immediately played the race card (or waited a few minutes) and the degree to which he was verbally aggressive.

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    lazegamerlazegamer The magnanimous cyberspaceRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    The Cat wrote: »
    Its kind of awesome how many people in here are treating the police report as anything close to factual.

    Oh wait, I meant to say "frustratingly naive".
    The Cat wrote: »
    I'm rather tempted to name the tendency "privilege in action", but its mostly the privilege of being young, docile, and relatively well-off rather than anything racial.

    Mostly. Harvard cops have, by all accounts, a well-established rep for harassing non-white students and academics.


    Had his own account refuted any of the claims regarding his loud and obnoxious behavior, maybe this would be a point. The only dispute between accounts that I've seen is whether or not the officers gave them their badge numbers. Also, your characterizations about people in this thread are fairly childish.

    edit: I guess if I had read the remaining posts I would have seen Pants taking up this argument. Not trying to pile on.

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    BamaBama Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    The Cat wrote: »
    I'm rather tempted to name the tendency "privilege in action", but its mostly the privilege of being young, docile, and relatively well-off rather than anything racial.
    I'll have you know that I'm offended by your privilege profiling. :P I'm all of those things and I certainly think the cops abused their power.

    Bama on
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    SageinaRageSageinaRage Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    The Cat wrote: »
    Its kind of awesome how many people in here are treating the police report as anything close to factual.

    Oh wait, I meant to say "frustratingly naive".

    There are only two types of people in this thread - frustratingly naive, and unhelpfully cynical.

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    BubbaTBubbaT Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    PantsB wrote: »
    BubbaT wrote: »
    Heartlash wrote: »
    PantsB wrote: »
    As for being a part of a trend of racial profiling, this is Cambridge. This is the town in the state that voted for George McGovern that people semi-seriously call the People's Republic of Cambridge. The moderates are liberal Democrats. The conservatives are populist or progressive Democrats. The liberals... well they make D&D look like Fox News enthusiasts.

    Sorry to bring this post up again even though it was a few pages ago, but are you insinuating that the liberal nature of Boston implies that its police department is also liberal? I really REALLY don't know about that... I mean, I've heard plenty of racist comments in the 5 years I've lived in the area, and I wouldn't be surprised if some of the sentiment is present in the police force as well.

    Boston PD doesn't have a sterling reputation race-wise. They're no LAPD or NYPD, but people haven't forgotten the Charles Stuart case any more than they've forgotten Rodney King or Abner Louima.

    As for Cambridge specifically, less than a year ago Harvard launched an investigation into its Campus Police unit over concerns about racial profiling.
    Harvard law professor Charles Ogletree said black students arrive on campus aiming for academic success but instead find themselves under suspicion.

    “I’ve been hosting, moderating, and mediating meetings between Harvard’s black students and university police for much of the last 20 years, and it always stems from an individual incident when African-Americans appear to be the subject of racial profiling by the police department,” Ogletree said Tuesday. “The problem is a persistent one, because there’s still this unfortunate assumption that equates the color of a person’s skin with involvement in criminality.”

    ...

    Alneada Biggers, president of the Association of Black Harvard Women, said the review shows Faust is aware of black students’ concerns about police.

    “It’s much needed,” Biggers said. “If you talk to any student in the black community, they’ll talk about being targeted.”

    http://tech.mit.edu/V128/N33/harvard.html

    This issue didn't just pop up out of the blue at Gates' house. In fact, Gates himself helped prompt the 2008 review
    Henry Louis Gates Jr., director of the W.E.B. Du Bois Institute for African and African American Research, said he has spoken with Faust about improving the racial climate and believes she takes the problem seriously.

    "We have to have zero tolerance," Gates said. "Any example of racism is one example too much, from the police or any other sector of Harvard University."

    http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2008/08/29/at_harvard_blacks_perceive_blatant_culture_of_prejudice/?p1

    And who said this?
    We must examine the way we deploy law enforcement officers to fight crime. Black people are more often the victims of crime. We strongly support police efforts to prevent and reduce the prevalence of crime in our communities. The success of crime prevention programs in cities like Boston and San Diego illustrates that partnerships between communities and the police can achieve the dual goal of preserving and maintaining respect for communities of color and providing protection and policing.
    Gates, Ogeltree and a number of other AA leaders (at the time of Diallo's death).

    And the exact same people saying that this is an act of racial profiling - when it wasn't - isn't particularly strong evidence. African-American studies professors/students aren't as out there as radical feminists but there's a lot of "when all you have is a hammer."

    The investigation at Harvard, which was welcomed by those professors, was of the Harvard Campus police, not of Boston PD.

    It's possible that Gates has a better relationship with, or opinion of, Boston PD than Harvard U or Cambridge city cops, and would not have levelled the same racial profiling charge against those officers as he did these.

    Also, Charles Stuart was the case of believing a white guy who said his wife got shot by a black guy, but never actually charging a black guy (the suspect was arrested for something else) for the crime. The media and ipublic's reaction was far more damning than the police's actions. Comparing that to sodomizing/murdering a black guy, beating a black guy almost to death, shooting a guy 41 times, etc seems a bit ridiculous.

    Which is why I said Boston PD aren't as bad as LA or NY.

    However, it doesn't mean that the black community in Boston has simply forgotten about that witch hunt just because it wasn't as bad as other cases in other cities. I wouldn't forget if you punched me just because someone else got shot in another city.

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    ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited July 2009
    BubbaT wrote: »
    PantsB wrote: »
    BubbaT wrote: »
    Heartlash wrote: »
    PantsB wrote: »
    As for being a part of a trend of racial profiling, this is Cambridge. This is the town in the state that voted for George McGovern that people semi-seriously call the People's Republic of Cambridge. The moderates are liberal Democrats. The conservatives are populist or progressive Democrats. The liberals... well they make D&D look like Fox News enthusiasts.

    Sorry to bring this post up again even though it was a few pages ago, but are you insinuating that the liberal nature of Boston implies that its police department is also liberal? I really REALLY don't know about that... I mean, I've heard plenty of racist comments in the 5 years I've lived in the area, and I wouldn't be surprised if some of the sentiment is present in the police force as well.

    Boston PD doesn't have a sterling reputation race-wise. They're no LAPD or NYPD, but people haven't forgotten the Charles Stuart case any more than they've forgotten Rodney King or Abner Louima.

    As for Cambridge specifically, less than a year ago Harvard launched an investigation into its Campus Police unit over concerns about racial profiling.
    Harvard law professor Charles Ogletree said black students arrive on campus aiming for academic success but instead find themselves under suspicion.

    “I’ve been hosting, moderating, and mediating meetings between Harvard’s black students and university police for much of the last 20 years, and it always stems from an individual incident when African-Americans appear to be the subject of racial profiling by the police department,” Ogletree said Tuesday. “The problem is a persistent one, because there’s still this unfortunate assumption that equates the color of a person’s skin with involvement in criminality.”

    ...

    Alneada Biggers, president of the Association of Black Harvard Women, said the review shows Faust is aware of black students’ concerns about police.

    “It’s much needed,” Biggers said. “If you talk to any student in the black community, they’ll talk about being targeted.”

    http://tech.mit.edu/V128/N33/harvard.html

    This issue didn't just pop up out of the blue at Gates' house. In fact, Gates himself helped prompt the 2008 review
    Henry Louis Gates Jr., director of the W.E.B. Du Bois Institute for African and African American Research, said he has spoken with Faust about improving the racial climate and believes she takes the problem seriously.

    "We have to have zero tolerance," Gates said. "Any example of racism is one example too much, from the police or any other sector of Harvard University."

    http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2008/08/29/at_harvard_blacks_perceive_blatant_culture_of_prejudice/?p1

    And who said this?
    We must examine the way we deploy law enforcement officers to fight crime. Black people are more often the victims of crime. We strongly support police efforts to prevent and reduce the prevalence of crime in our communities. The success of crime prevention programs in cities like Boston and San Diego illustrates that partnerships between communities and the police can achieve the dual goal of preserving and maintaining respect for communities of color and providing protection and policing.
    Gates, Ogeltree and a number of other AA leaders (at the time of Diallo's death).

    And the exact same people saying that this is an act of racial profiling - when it wasn't - isn't particularly strong evidence. African-American studies professors/students aren't as out there as radical feminists but there's a lot of "when all you have is a hammer."

    The investigation at Harvard, which was welcomed by those professors, was of the Harvard Campus police, not of Boston PD.

    It's possible that Gates has a better relationship with, or opinion of, Boston PD than Harvard U or Cambridge city cops, and would not have levelled the same racial profiling charge against those officers as he did these.

    Also, Charles Stuart was the case of believing a white guy who said his wife got shot by a black guy, but never actually charging a black guy (the suspect was arrested for something else) for the crime. The media and ipublic's reaction was far more damning than the police's actions. Comparing that to sodomizing/murdering a black guy, beating a black guy almost to death, shooting a guy 41 times, etc seems a bit ridiculous.

    Which is why I said Boston PD aren't as bad as LA or NY.

    However, it doesn't mean that the black community in Boston has simply forgotten about that witch hunt just because it wasn't as bad as other cases in other cities. I wouldn't forget if you punched me just because someone else got shot in another city.

    For example, police in black neighborhoods will let white people go as fast as they want, and if they do pull a white person over, will let him get away with it if he says he was speeding because he doesn't feel safe.

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    Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    I agree with all that, but from the description of the events in the article and police report, I got the impression that the guys weren't trying to batter the door down or bash it it so much as the one guy was just leaning against it and pushing.

    And don't underestimate the number of B&Es we get up here. :P
    The cops didn't actually observe Gates and his driver opening the door. They were working off of someone making a call and describing the situation. Until they got on the scene, they had no real knowledge of what was happening.

    I really don't think its unreasonable for the cops to come investigate the situation if they receive a call like this. And I don't see how this could be considered racial profiling.

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    Hockey JohnstonHockey Johnston Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    The funny thing is that there are elements of racial profiling that are defensible, whereas the abuse shown here really isn't.

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    Element BrianElement Brian Peanut Butter Shill Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    I'd just like to point out, theres a difference between the "cops hanging around" and them finishing their job. As someone whose had the cops come to their house for various reasons. They usually have some sort of form or paperwork that they need to fill out ASAP, usually on the site. When they came to my house, they would go back to our driveway and stick around for another 15 minutes, most likely going through all the mandatory stuff Cops are supposed to do with any incident.

    So I doubt it was really them, hanging out and trying to harass the guy, honestly, it feels and looks the other way around. They come to his house because of a report. THEY HAVE TO DO THEIR BLOODY JOB. Just because the guy SAYS he lives there, doesn't mean its so, and the cops have to make sure.

    The guy just go so riled up because, oh my gosh I"m a harvard professor, i can't believe they are questioning me because I'm black. And then while they were trying to just finish their job so they could leave and get back to work, the guy wouldn't let it drop and kept pushing it. Idiot was asking for it, he should of let the cops finish thier job and instead of that he was being an ass. If it had been a white guy out there talking down to them and annoying the hell out of them, they probably would have arrested him too.

    Also, I wonder what the opinion of the black officer in the photo is as far as racial profiling goes...

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    ShadowfireShadowfire Vermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    One thing that's been bugging me a bit... what is the law exactly when an officer requests identification? As far as I'm aware, unless you are driving you have no responsibility to show ID. You must identify yourself, but you don't have to show a license. Of course not everyone has a license (or non-drivers ID)...

    It just strikes me as odd. I know that in Vermont there is no such requirement. If an officer requests your ID when you are not driving, you can refuse, but still must identify yourself. I remember this being the case in New Hampshire and New York as well, and I had assumed this to be so nationally.

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    MrMisterMrMister Jesus dying on the cross in pain? Morally better than us. One has to go "all in".Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Idiot was asking for it, he should of let the cops finish thier job and instead of that he was being an ass.

    Yes, we much all kneel before authority or be shown our rightful place.

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    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    MrMister wrote: »
    Idiot was asking for it, he should of let the cops finish thier job and instead of that he was being an ass.

    Yes, we much all kneel before authority or be shown our rightful place.


    How dare a man expect to be treated as something other than a criminal in his own home!

    A 5'7'' 150lb man who walks with a cane, no less!

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    ShadowfireShadowfire Vermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    MrMister wrote: »
    Idiot was asking for it, he should of let the cops finish thier job and instead of that he was being an ass.

    Yes, we much all kneel before authority or be shown our rightful place.

    Honestly, if you comply with their wishes and complain after the fact you at least look like a reasonable person.

    I'm not saying it's right. But in a case like this, you are fighting a public perception battle. Looking as reasonable as you can is big bonus points.

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    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Shadowfire wrote: »
    MrMister wrote: »
    Idiot was asking for it, he should of let the cops finish thier job and instead of that he was being an ass.

    Yes, we much all kneel before authority or be shown our rightful place.

    Honestly, if you comply with their wishes and complain after the fact you at least look like a reasonable person.

    I'm not saying it's right. But in a case like this, you are fighting a public perception battle. Looking as reasonable as you can is big bonus points.
    Let's see, dude's in Cambridge, is a Harvard Professor, and has stated his point and kept it from being swept under the rug. I think he wins.

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    Element BrianElement Brian Peanut Butter Shill Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Shadowfire wrote: »
    One thing that's been bugging me a bit... what is the law exactly when an officer requests identification? As far as I'm aware, unless you are driving you have no responsibility to show ID. You must identify yourself, but you don't have to show a license. Of course not everyone has a license (or non-drivers ID)...
    .

    They needed to see his I.D. to verify who he was and that this was his house.

    Let me give you a couple scenarios. Cop see's someone trying to shimmy open a car door. The guy just says, "Oh its my car, i just locked my keys inside."

    Does the cop A. Say: oh ok carry on then.

    Or B. Ask them for I.D. to verify that the car does in fact belong to them.

    Now apply the situation to a house. Is it any different? All the cops wanted to do was verify that the man does in fact own the house, and therefore there would be no problems, and checking his I.D. would be the best way to verify who he was and what his residence was. Since someone called the cops reporting someone allegedly breaking into a house, it is in the Cop's responsibility to cover all bases.

    If I were a cop, I'd rather have someone be pissed off at me for doing my job correctly, than for making a stupid mistake and letting a prospective criminal get away.


    MrMister wrote: »
    Idiot was asking for it, he should of let the cops finish thier job and instead of that he was being an ass.

    Yes, we much all kneel before authority or be shown our rightful place.

    I'm not saying that we need to surrender all rights and what not. But cops do have a purpose, and that is to execute the just enforcement of the law. So when they have a situation like this, there is most likely regulation that they are supposed to follow so that there are no loose ends. Whats more THE COPS WERN't HARRASSING THE GUY. He was Harrassing them. It's not that hard to let a cop do what he needs to do so he can just leave.

    But if you are going to be a pain in the neck and shout at the guy about "oh man your only here cuz I'm black, and Oh man I'm going to get you fired because i'm a harvard proffesors and blah blah blah" Maybe your stepping over the line, and should STFU, and when you follow the cop onto your porch to keep complaining, then youve pretty much made that decision that you want SOMETHING to happen.

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    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    The funniest thing about this is that an extremely similar situation happened to my sister, who lives in Cambridge, and they didn't ask her for any ID or anything. They were just "Oh, Cool" and drove away.

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    ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited July 2009
    Shadowfire wrote: »
    One thing that's been bugging me a bit... what is the law exactly when an officer requests identification? As far as I'm aware, unless you are driving you have no responsibility to show ID. You must identify yourself, but you don't have to show a license. Of course not everyone has a license (or non-drivers ID)...
    .

    They needed to see his I.D. to verify who he was and that this was his house.

    Let me give you a couple scenarios. Cop see's someone trying to shimmy open a car door. The guy just says, "Oh its my car, i just locked my keys inside."

    Does the cop A. Say: oh ok carry on then.

    Or B. Ask them for I.D. to verify that the car does in fact belong to them.

    Now apply the situation to a house. Is it any different? All the cops wanted to do was verify that the man does in fact own the house, and therefore there would be no problems, and checking his I.D. would be the best way to verify who he was and what his residence was. Since someone called the cops reporting someone allegedly breaking into a house, it is in the Cop's responsibility to cover all bases.

    If I were a cop, I'd rather have someone be pissed off at me for doing my job correctly, than for making a stupid mistake and letting a prospective criminal get away.


    MrMister wrote: »
    Idiot was asking for it, he should of let the cops finish thier job and instead of that he was being an ass.

    Yes, we much all kneel before authority or be shown our rightful place.

    I'm not saying that we need to surrender all rights and what not. But cops do have a purpose, and that is to execute the just enforcement of the law. So when they have a situation like this, there is most likely regulation that they are supposed to follow so that there are no loose ends. Whats more THE COPS WERN't HARRASSING THE GUY. He was Harrassing them. It's not that hard to let a cop do what he needs to do so he can just leave.

    But if you are going to be a pain in the neck and shout at the guy about "oh man your only here cuz I'm black, and Oh man I'm going to get you fired because i'm a harvard proffesors and blah blah blah" Maybe your stepping over the line, and should STFU, and when you follow the cop onto your porch to keep complaining, then youve pretty much made that decision that you want SOMETHING to happen.

    He showed his ID, and they didn't leave when he told them to get off his property, and became more agitated when the police stayed on his property without a warrant.

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    Element BrianElement Brian Peanut Butter Shill Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Again, in a situation like this, there is usually loose ends the cops need to cover, some sort of paper work, etc, that they do before leaving the scene. When someone calls 911, there is paperwork to be filled.

    Honestly... I don't understand how, "oh the cops were sticking around, harrasing him and trying to think of some way to arrest him" Is somehow more logical than "They were still on the property becase they need to finish whatever reports or mandatory cop work that they have to do with situations when someone dials 911 because of a break in. And the guy was just being un unsufferable douche"

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    ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited July 2009
    Again, in a situation like this, there is usually loose ends the cops need to cover, some sort of paper work, etc, that they do before leaving the scene. When someone calls 911, there is paperwork to be filled.

    Honestly... I don't understand how, "oh the cops were sticking around, harrasing him and trying to think of some way to arrest him" Is somehow more logical than "They were still on the property becase they need to finish whatever reports or mandatory cop work that they have to do with situations when someone dials 911 because of a break in. And the guy was just being un unsufferable douche"

    Because they have to leave if the property owner tells them to unless they have probable cause, which they didn't, and because being rude isn't a crime.

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    Element BrianElement Brian Peanut Butter Shill Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Scalfin wrote: »
    Again, in a situation like this, there is usually loose ends the cops need to cover, some sort of paper work, etc, that they do before leaving the scene. When someone calls 911, there is paperwork to be filled.

    Honestly... I don't understand how, "oh the cops were sticking around, harrasing him and trying to think of some way to arrest him" Is somehow more logical than "They were still on the property becase they need to finish whatever reports or mandatory cop work that they have to do with situations when someone dials 911 because of a break in. And the guy was just being un unsufferable douche"

    Because they have to leave if the property owner tells them to unless they have probable cause, which they didn't, and because being rude isn't a crime.

    Actually, they were leaving, they were in the process of leaving after the guy kept beratting them while they were trying to check his I.D. and they were going to leave, but the guy decided that letting well enough alone wasn't good enough. He had to be an idiot and follow them onto his porch, and keep threatening the cops. When it gets to the point that someone thinks they can threaten a cop simply because they think they are better than them, then they are simply asking for the cop to prove them wrong and put them in handcuffs.

    If you don't want to be put in handcuffs, dont be a douche bag. There is a difference between peaceful inquiry, and acting like a turd. This guy was doing the latter.

    Honestly, that Chris Rock video has a lot more relavance in this case.

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    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Scalfin wrote: »
    Again, in a situation like this, there is usually loose ends the cops need to cover, some sort of paper work, etc, that they do before leaving the scene. When someone calls 911, there is paperwork to be filled.

    Honestly... I don't understand how, "oh the cops were sticking around, harrasing him and trying to think of some way to arrest him" Is somehow more logical than "They were still on the property becase they need to finish whatever reports or mandatory cop work that they have to do with situations when someone dials 911 because of a break in. And the guy was just being un unsufferable douche"

    Because they have to leave if the property owner tells them to unless they have probable cause, which they didn't, and because being rude isn't a crime.

    Actually, they were leaving, they were in the process of leaving after the guy kept beratting them while they were trying to check his I.D. and they were going to leave, but the guy decided that letting well enough alone wasn't good enough. He had to be an idiot and follow them onto his porch, and keep threatening the cops. When it gets to the point that someone thinks they can threaten a cop simply because they think they are better than them, then they are simply asking for the cop to prove them wrong and put them in handcuffs.

    If you don't want to be put in handcuffs, dont be a douche bag. There is a difference between peaceful inquiry, and acting like a turd. This guy was doing the latter.

    Honestly, that Chris Rock video has a lot more relavance in this case.
    So Police actually following the law is not something you want, then?

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    Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Scalfin wrote: »
    Again, in a situation like this, there is usually loose ends the cops need to cover, some sort of paper work, etc, that they do before leaving the scene. When someone calls 911, there is paperwork to be filled.

    Honestly... I don't understand how, "oh the cops were sticking around, harrasing him and trying to think of some way to arrest him" Is somehow more logical than "They were still on the property becase they need to finish whatever reports or mandatory cop work that they have to do with situations when someone dials 911 because of a break in. And the guy was just being un unsufferable douche"

    Because they have to leave if the property owner tells them to unless they have probable cause, which they didn't, and because being rude isn't a crime.

    Actually, they were leaving, they were in the process of leaving after the guy kept beratting them while they were trying to check his I.D. and they were going to leave, but the guy decided that letting well enough alone wasn't good enough. He had to be an idiot and follow them onto his porch, and keep threatening the cops. When it gets to the point that someone thinks they can threaten a cop simply because they think they are better than them, then they are simply asking for the cop to prove them wrong and put them in handcuffs.

    If you don't want to be put in handcuffs, dont be a douche bag. There is a difference between peaceful inquiry, and acting like a turd. This guy was doing the latter.

    Honestly, that Chris Rock video has a lot more relavance in this case.

    "Acting like a turd" is not grounds for arrest, and I'm not seeing ANY information about him threatening the cops.

    Phoenix-D on
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    Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Again, it isn't illegal to be rude, even to cops. This isn't a complicated concept.

    If police arrested everyone who was a douchebag to them our prisons would be vastly more overpopulated than they already are.

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    it was the smallest on the list but
    Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
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    DocDoc Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited July 2009
    Scalfin wrote: »
    Again, in a situation like this, there is usually loose ends the cops need to cover, some sort of paper work, etc, that they do before leaving the scene. When someone calls 911, there is paperwork to be filled.

    Honestly... I don't understand how, "oh the cops were sticking around, harrasing him and trying to think of some way to arrest him" Is somehow more logical than "They were still on the property becase they need to finish whatever reports or mandatory cop work that they have to do with situations when someone dials 911 because of a break in. And the guy was just being un unsufferable douche"

    Because they have to leave if the property owner tells them to unless they have probable cause, which they didn't, and because being rude isn't a crime.

    Actually, they were leaving, they were in the process of leaving after the guy kept beratting them while they were trying to check his I.D. and they were going to leave, but the guy decided that letting well enough alone wasn't good enough. He had to be an idiot and follow them onto his porch, and keep threatening the cops. When it gets to the point that someone thinks they can threaten a cop simply because they think they are better than them, then they are simply asking for the cop to prove them wrong and put them in handcuffs.

    If you don't want to be put in handcuffs, dont be a douche bag. There is a difference between peaceful inquiry, and acting like a turd. This guy was doing the latter.

    Honestly, that Chris Rock video has a lot more relavance in this case.

    When did he threaten the cops? If you have to make shit up to justify your point, it may be worth reconsidering.

    Doc on
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    DaMoonRulzDaMoonRulz Mare ImbriumRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    I try to live by the old saying "you catch more flies with honey than vinegar".
    Again, it isn't illegal to be rude, even to cops.

    If you're being rude in a manner that cops deem a public disturbance, then yes, it is illegal. It's a highly subjective and dubious thing to arrest someone on, but I doubt the arresting officer did it thinking the charge would stick.

    I don't think this was an incident where races collided, I think it was an incident where egos collided. "I'm a Professor, I don't have to take this" vs. "I'm a Cop, I don't have to take this"

    DaMoonRulz on
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    MrMisterMrMister Jesus dying on the cross in pain? Morally better than us. One has to go "all in".Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    DaMoonRulz wrote: »
    I don't think this was an incident where races collided, I think it was an incident where egos collided. "I'm a citizen, I don't have to take this legally improper mistreatment" vs. "I'm a petty authoritarian, I don't have to take this bad attitude"

    Fixed.

    And the notion that it's acceptable for cops to arrest someone on charges they know won't go anywhere, just as a way to slap cuffs on them and show them the station for the night, is abhorrent.

    MrMister on
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    cherv1cherv1 Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    MrMister wrote: »
    DaMoonRulz wrote: »
    I don't think this was an incident where races collided, I think it was an incident where egos collided. "I'm a citizen, I don't have to take this legally improper mistreatment" vs. "I'm a petty authoritarian, I don't have to take this bad attitude"

    Fixed.

    And the notion that it's acceptable for cops to arrest someone on charges they know won't go anywhere, just as a way to slap cuffs on them and show them the station for the night, is abhorrent.

    I think it's pretty likely that he was thinking "I don't have to take this bad attitude - from an uppity black guy", or that that was at least part of it.

    cherv1 on
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    SelnerSelner Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    And more fuel for this fire, provided by Obama (press conf last night).

    http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=8153681&page=1

    And also, the cop who arrested Gates is not apologizing (also in article, as video).

    Selner on
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    SageinaRageSageinaRage Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Scalfin wrote: »
    Again, in a situation like this, there is usually loose ends the cops need to cover, some sort of paper work, etc, that they do before leaving the scene. When someone calls 911, there is paperwork to be filled.

    Honestly... I don't understand how, "oh the cops were sticking around, harrasing him and trying to think of some way to arrest him" Is somehow more logical than "They were still on the property becase they need to finish whatever reports or mandatory cop work that they have to do with situations when someone dials 911 because of a break in. And the guy was just being un unsufferable douche"

    Because they have to leave if the property owner tells them to unless they have probable cause, which they didn't, and because being rude isn't a crime.

    Well, it IS, just for certain values of rude.

    SageinaRage on
    sig.gif
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    cherv1cherv1 Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    How big of a backlash is there going to be against Obama for that? It took me a bit by surprise as as I see it he generally tiptoes around race and kisses America's ass a little on how post-racial it's become - not really coming out strongly against racism or on issues of race.

    cherv1 on
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    SheepSheep Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited July 2009
    Depends on who you ask. Glen Beck? Tons of backlash. Everyone else? Couldn't care.

    The cop should have left. I'm not saying that what the cop did was wrong, but once he realized what the situation had turned into, he should have told the guy to calm down and that he should have been happy to see a quick response to a B&E call and left it at that.
    And the notion that it's acceptable for cops to arrest someone on charges they know won't go anywhere, just as a way to slap cuffs on them and show them the station for the night, is abhorrent.

    Screaming at someone, especially a cop, on your front porch is an arrestable offense.



    One time me and my dad were picking up some bed frames from his store. Sunday afternoon in a small town. Cop sees us pulling mattresses out of the back of the warehouse, stops us, and asks us some questions.

    He steps inside the warehouse, takes a look around, and asks for our IDs. We don't start screaming at him to get off our property just because we've shown him some evidence. We wait for him to get a good look around the place, call our IDs in, and get a report.

    Warrants aren't required for B&E calls.

    Again, the cop should have left the moment the situation escalated.

    But it's not the cops fault for the race baiting that took place then and subsequently.

    He shouldn't apologize.

    I'd much rather be inconvenienced by a cop doing his job than to have running around, taking peoples words for matters, and generally not being suspicious.

    Sheep on
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    AdrienAdrien Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    When it gets to the point that someone thinks they can threaten a cop simply because they think they are better than them, then they are simply asking for the cop to prove them wrong and put them in handcuffs.

    Proving wrong fail.

    Adrien on
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    cherv1cherv1 Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    White people can't accurately equate their experiences with the police with those of black people. It just doesn't work. It's naive for white people to act like they can put themselves in the shoes of black people in this regard, when they themselves face no institutional discrimination or prejudice from law enforcement. And this "race-baiting" and "race-card" stuff is ridiculous. You'll note that very little of this is coming from black columnists or bloggers about this event - primarily just the white ones.

    While some people may be fine with the occasional inconvenience of "a cop doing his job", a fair few black people would be sick to the back teeth of being far too frequently stopped by the police, and being treated in a way that has nasty racial undertones.

    cherv1 on
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    AsiinaAsiina ... WaterlooRegistered User regular
    edited July 2009
    Doc wrote: »
    If you have to make shit up to justify your point, it may be worth reconsidering.
    MrMister wrote: »
    And the notion that it's acceptable for cops to arrest someone on charges they know won't go anywhere, just as a way to slap cuffs on them and show them the station for the night, is abhorrent.
    cherv1 wrote: »
    I think it's pretty likely that he was thinking "I don't have to take this bad attitude - from an uppity black guy", or that that was at least part of it.

    :lol:

    Asiina on
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    SheepSheep Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited July 2009
    And this "race-baiting" and "race-card" stuff is ridiculous. You'll note that very little of this is coming from black columnists or bloggers about this event - primarily just the white ones.

    Why would Al Sharpton accuse himself of race baiting?

    That's a stupid assessment.
    While some people may be fine with the occasional inconvenience of "a cop doing his job", a fair few black people would be sick to the back teeth of being far too frequently stopped by the police, and being treated in a way that has nasty racial undertones.

    And?

    Discrimination and racism in the past doesn't give someone a right to be a dick when a cop is actually doing their job.

    The idea that this only happened because the guy was black is hilarious. You better believe if my scrubby, long haired, hippie bearded ass was in the exact same situation, and I had the exact same response as the Professor, my ass would have ended up in jail as well.

    And I probably wouldn't get the benefit of having the charges dropped because of my race.

    Sheep on
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    cherv1cherv1 Registered User regular
    edited July 2009
    What, so all black writers and activists are Al Sharpton?

    There's severe doubt as to whether the cop was doing his job. You just don't seem to be able to see this through a black perspective, because when you deal with the police they're obviously not going to be racist towards you. Hell, even the president has said the police were out of line and that racism was involved in this arrest. Or is he just playing the race card?

    And that's to say nothing of your assertion that discrimination and racism are somehow "in the past".

    cherv1 on
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    SheepSheep Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited July 2009
    What, so all black writers and activists are Al Sharpton?

    Alright.

    Why would black writers and black activists accuse themselves of race baiting?
    There's severe doubt as to whether the cop was doing his job. You just don't seem to be able to see this through a black perspective, because when you deal with the police they're obviously not going to be racist towards you.

    Let's see.

    Someone reported a B&E. Cop showed up. Cop inspected home, asked for ID. Resident began yelling at a cop. Cop arrested resident.

    Seems like he did his job to me.
    Hell, even the president has said the police were out of line and that racism was involved in this arrest. Or is he just playing the race card?

    No.

    Obama's just an idiot.
    And that's to say nothing of your assertion that discrimination and racism are somehow "in the past".

    Right.

    Because a white cop obviously can't handle a situation involving a black man without racism being involved.

    But I appreciate you accusing me of saying something that I didn't actually say. You're really approaching the discussion in a neutral fashion.


    The only people concerned about race are Black. Why is it impossible for you to see this situation an any light other than "Cop wanted to cuff blackie"?

    Sheep on
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