I think people are vastly overestimating the extent to which PUA stuff actively denigrates women.
"Actively degrades" is not really correct. It's that many popular PUA seminars treat women as a) Teh Enemy who need to be tricked and manipulated into giving up the pussy they are unfairly withholding and b) a mechanism for scoring Man Points with your bros. Hence the emphasis on the "9+" and techniques like uninvited touching.
And obviously, Pony's point was that "results!!!" is not really an argument.
Fighter pilots traditionally keep score of human lives they end. I'm pretty sure that counting girlfriends is just a natural expression of the human urge to quantify success.
I'd say it's a natural expression of being a dickhead.
My first girlfriend keeps count. She is deeply lacking in the dickhead department. She just has bad luck with long-term relationships, and happens to keep count.
Right, but not for the "look how many notches on my belt" purpose, I'm guessing.
I think people are vastly overestimating the extent to which PUA stuff actively denigrates women.
"Actively degrades" is not really correct. It's that many popular PUA seminars treat women as a) Teh Enemy who need to be tricked and manipulated into giving up the pussy they are unfairly withholding and b) a mechanism for scoring Man Points with your bros. Hence the emphasis on the "9+" and techniques like uninvited touching.
And obviously, Pony's point was that "results!!!" is not really an argument.
Fighter pilots traditionally keep score of human lives they end. I'm pretty sure that counting girlfriends is just a natural expression of the human urge to quantify success.
I'd say it's a natural expression of being a dickhead.
My first girlfriend keeps count. She is deeply lacking in the dickhead department. She just has bad luck with long-term relationships, and happens to keep count.
Your first girlfriend keeps count of the number of lives she ends?
As in, "I've been involved in three long-term relationships" =/= "Last month I scored with a couple of pretty hot girls, they were about 8's, and one HB10".
EDIT: And, if some of the friends of PUAs from earlier in the topic are correct, you also apparently not only quantify how good she looked but how good she was in bed.
Gender roles tend to insert themselves into behavior, so that women are taught to suppress the urge while men are allowed to acknowledge it.
Rabbis have the strictest quota, though, so your explanation doesn't make sense.
I don't get what you're saying about rabbis. Jewish law technically allows multiple wives/concubines, but there's been a rabbinical ban on the practice (at least for Ashkenazic Jews) for, what, a thousand years?
I agree that gender roles do affect behavior; the problem is confusing that with how men and women innately "are". A woman who enjoys sex may not sleep with you on the first date, even if she wants to, because she's aware that guys who don't judge themselves for doing so will judge her. That's very different from the assertion that women have 'vagina', a sort of trade good from which they derive no innate benefit, as Gabe seems to believe.
By suppressing the urge, they eventually learn to feel it less strongly, thereby making them less desperate, hence the boobs:dick ratio on the internet.
Rabbis have a very strict quota of the number of times they have to brings their wives to climax. Were the quota due to polygamy, there'd be no need for rabbis to have the quota.
Of course Rabbis have it too. You don't think the wives of the guys writing this shit are gonna get that kind of thing in there?
I very much doubt anyone truly thinks that confidence-building is a bad thing. Trying to get people to realize that they actually have some value to other people isn't a bad thing.
Also, people lie to each other. Non-PUA "initiates" lie all the time. Men lie to women. Women lie to men. Sometimes they lie to each other simultaneously. Sometimes they lie to each other simultaneously and both of them know the other person is lying and and neither really cares because, really, sometimes you just want to get laid - boy or girl.
Most of this Pick-Up Artist culture - at least the most visible part of it - is disgusting in the way it reduces everything to some kind of stereotype - for both men and women. "Hot babe", "easy", "chump", "skillless", and so on. It perpetuates a culture of labeling and objectification of BOTH sexes. It treats life like some kind of game where you win or lose. It's sexist because it suggests that men are conniving bastards looking to get laid and that women are the maiden at the end of Super Mario Bros - as long as you know which bricks to bash along the way, you'll get to jump through that last hoop at the end and win. Maybe you'll even get to ride Yoshi.
I'm getting lost in my analogy. The point is - I don't like this perception of life. A lot of people don't. I imagine a lot of people with "game" don't, too. I don't like people that see other people as equations and try to calculate how they can extract the most for themselves from this person. That's what this visible/loud PUA culture is all about - treating people like objectives. That is obnoxious.
I very much doubt anyone truly thinks that confidence-building is a bad thing. Trying to get people to realize that they actually have some value to other people isn't a bad thing.
Also, people lie to each other. Non-PUA "initiates" lie all the time. Men lie to women. Women lie to men. Sometimes they lie to each other simultaneously. Sometimes they lie to each other simultaneously and both of them know the other person is lying and and neither really cares because, really, sometimes you just want to get laid - boy or girl.
Most of this Pick-Up Artist culture - at least the most visible part of it - is disgusting in the way it reduces everything to some kind of stereotype - for both men and women. "Hot babe", "easy", "chump", "skillless", and so on. It perpetuates a culture of labeling and objectification of BOTH sexes. It treats life like some kind of game where you win or lose. It's sexist because it suggests that men are conniving bastards looking to get laid and that women are the maiden at the end of Super Mario Bros - as long as you know which bricks to bash along the way, you'll get to jump through that last hoop at the end and win. Maybe you'll even get to ride Yoshi.
I'm getting lost in my analogy. The point is - I don't like this perception of life. A lot of people don't. I imagine a lot of people with "game" don't, too. I don't like people that see other people as equations and try to calculate how they can extract the most for themselves from this person. That's what this visible/loud PUA culture is all about - treating people like objectives. That is obnoxious.
Well, whatever. I think you are vastly overstating the degree to which women are treated as "the enemy," as well as the whole point scoring thing. These things are celebrated by a comparatively small subculture that exists mostly online.
These things are celebrated outside of the PUA culture and not just online, actually. The reason for pointing them out is that they're extremely poisonous tactics sold to men under the promise that it will help them win status in the eyes of their bros because they'll trick high-value females into their beds.
mythago on
Three lines of plaintext:
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Or maybe PUA culture is disgusting in that it involves making a woman feel insecure around her friends and then emotionally blackmailing her into sex, thereafter being a game of estranging her from her friends and family so she depends entirely on you for support.
Or maybe PUA culture is disgusting in that it involves making a woman feel insecure around her friends and then emotionally blackmailing her into sex, thereafter being a game of estranging her from her friends and family so she depends entirely on you for support.
Dude (you know who you are), if you have something to say on this topic - even if it's about something I've said in the past - please debate it out in the open. I loathe side debates in PM.
Well, whatever. I think you are vastly overstating the degree to which women are treated as "the enemy," as well as the whole point scoring thing. These things are celebrated by a comparatively small subculture that exists mostly online.
These things are celebrated outside of the PUA culture and not just online, actually. The reason for pointing them out is that they're extremely poisonous tactics sold to men under the promise that it will help them win status in the eyes of their bros because they'll trick high-value females into their beds.
Only, they aren't. It's pretty easy to find videos of these dudes' seminars and so on online, or to find stuff they write, and believe it or not it isn't all about how women are the enemy or about tricking women that you'll laugh at the next day or something. To the extent that there are guys that think that it's not because PUA and etc taught them anything, it's because they already had issues.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Well, whatever. I think you are vastly overstating the degree to which women are treated as "the enemy," as well as the whole point scoring thing. These things are celebrated by a comparatively small subculture that exists mostly online.
These things are celebrated outside of the PUA culture and not just online, actually. The reason for pointing them out is that they're extremely poisonous tactics sold to men under the promise that it will help them win status in the eyes of their bros because they'll trick high-value females into their beds.
Only, they aren't. It's pretty easy to find videos of these dudes' seminars and so on online, or to find stuff they write, and believe it or not it isn't all about how women are the enemy or about tricking women that you'll laugh at the next day or something. To the extent that there are guys that think that it's not because PUA and etc taught them anything, it's because they already had issues.
Please post videos of upper echelon people in the community to prove this. I don't care enough to go searching myself, but I will watch what you find.
Improvolone on
Voice actor for hire. My time is free if your project is!
I am sort of leery of dragging this onto the front page again but I figured I might as well throw some things up here.
Love Systems actually inlined this on their website; it's an interview on the tyra banks show. If you can tolerate three or four minutes of tyra banks before the interview starts, it's pretty good, and they talk to some of the women the "trainees" tried to pick up.
This is another interview with a dude named Jack Coxwell (apparently his real name) who is a newer PUA "instructor." There is apparently some debate in the community about his legitimacy but he's producing videos and seems to be charging for coaching, so maybe he is legit enough. This is part three, but the first two parts of it are pretty good also.
It's hard to find a good interview with Mystery because it's usually either totally sychophantic or a hit piece, but if you watch his VH1 show the focus is hardly ever on 'oh this girl was an eight or this one was only a seven," or "man women suck" or anything like that. This is a clip I found from some oldish talk show that gets a little into "look here is why guys actually come to us."
Here is Neil Strauss (who is the guy who wrote The Game and basically 'broke' the whole PUA story) on kimmel, and also mystery on kimmel. The Strauss interview is one of the funniest things ever if you pay attention to Alba instead of Strauss/Kimmel.
I haven't made any sort of serious study of the stuff (although I did enjoy The Game and watching the VH1 show), and I'm also in the hole of trying to prove a negative, so I guess I'll just leave it here. But I mean, if there's someone somewhere saying "what is important is casual sex with hot women and bragging about it to your friends, and I will teach you how," I haven't seen it. And I don't think it exists, aside from some seedy websites.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
There are countless hordes of men who think casual sex with hot girls is the most important thing. Viewing women as objects that are subordinate to men's desires has a long and rich history. If you think pua culture doesn't reinforce and encourage that, expicitly or not, you are fooling yourself.
Dyscord I refuse to take that post seriously until you retype every important sentence in capitals, then italicize every fourth word for emphasis. Also throw in a few ad hominems.
I have a hard time believing "Mystery" ever gets laid at all wearing those ridiculous clothes (black fur Dr. Seuss hat with a Pugsley Addams t-shirt?)
Where the hell do you even get clothes like that? Spencer's Gifts?
All my knowledge on the topic stems from Neil Strauss' "The Game" (great read, by the way), but the logic behind it seems to be sound. Women go to the clubs and pubs, and there are TONS of guys there. You need something to stand out from the crowd and seem interesting.
I have a hard time believing "Mystery" ever gets laid at all wearing those ridiculous clothes (black fur Dr. Seuss hat with a Pugsley Addams t-shirt?)
Where the hell do you even get clothes like that? Spencer's Gifts?
All my knowledge on the topic stems from Neil Strauss' "The Game" (great read, by the way), but the logic behind it seems to be sound. Women go to the clubs and pubs, and there are TONS of guys there. You need something to stand out from the crowd and seem interesting.
I have a hard time believing "Mystery" ever gets laid at all wearing those ridiculous clothes (black fur Dr. Seuss hat with a Pugsley Addams t-shirt?)
Where the hell do you even get clothes like that? Spencer's Gifts?
All my knowledge on the topic stems from Neil Strauss' "The Game" (great read, by the way), but the logic behind it seems to be sound. Women go to the clubs and pubs, and there are TONS of guys there. You need something to stand out from the crowd and seem interesting.
It's essentially marketing yourself.
With a Halloween costume?
I always get the ladies when I'm wearing sequins. :winky:
My luck with women comes and goes, but even when it seems like I'll never find anyone right, thinking that I need to look somewhere for help has never crossed my mind. I think I just have a completely different mindset than the people that use this stuff to better themselves or to score with chicks.
Forgive me if this is considered a necro-post. I'm gonna do it anyway.
I started reading The Game thanks to Tycho and Gabe's great debate. I gotta say its well written and a really fun read. I'm grateful to it as well becuase it made me realize I'm not the only 22 year old guy out there who has never been intimate with a female and that maybe with a little work I can change that. I'm so fucking bad at socializing I don't even have male friends. I've decided to start fresh this fall and I'm gonna try actually talking to people.
Posts
Your first girlfriend keeps count of the number of lives she ends?
I'm thoroughly confused here.
As in, "I've been involved in three long-term relationships" =/= "Last month I scored with a couple of pretty hot girls, they were about 8's, and one HB10".
EDIT: And, if some of the friends of PUAs from earlier in the topic are correct, you also apparently not only quantify how good she looked but how good she was in bed.
Of course Rabbis have it too. You don't think the wives of the guys writing this shit are gonna get that kind of thing in there?
Also, people lie to each other. Non-PUA "initiates" lie all the time. Men lie to women. Women lie to men. Sometimes they lie to each other simultaneously. Sometimes they lie to each other simultaneously and both of them know the other person is lying and and neither really cares because, really, sometimes you just want to get laid - boy or girl.
Most of this Pick-Up Artist culture - at least the most visible part of it - is disgusting in the way it reduces everything to some kind of stereotype - for both men and women. "Hot babe", "easy", "chump", "skillless", and so on. It perpetuates a culture of labeling and objectification of BOTH sexes. It treats life like some kind of game where you win or lose. It's sexist because it suggests that men are conniving bastards looking to get laid and that women are the maiden at the end of Super Mario Bros - as long as you know which bricks to bash along the way, you'll get to jump through that last hoop at the end and win. Maybe you'll even get to ride Yoshi.
I'm getting lost in my analogy. The point is - I don't like this perception of life. A lot of people don't. I imagine a lot of people with "game" don't, too. I don't like people that see other people as equations and try to calculate how they can extract the most for themselves from this person. That's what this visible/loud PUA culture is all about - treating people like objectives. That is obnoxious.
Wasn't that the plot of the Foundation novels?
These things are celebrated outside of the PUA culture and not just online, actually. The reason for pointing them out is that they're extremely poisonous tactics sold to men under the promise that it will help them win status in the eyes of their bros because they'll trick high-value females into their beds.
obsolete signature form
replaced by JPEGs.
ding!
Only, they aren't. It's pretty easy to find videos of these dudes' seminars and so on online, or to find stuff they write, and believe it or not it isn't all about how women are the enemy or about tricking women that you'll laugh at the next day or something. To the extent that there are guys that think that it's not because PUA and etc taught them anything, it's because they already had issues.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Please post videos of upper echelon people in the community to prove this. I don't care enough to go searching myself, but I will watch what you find.
Love Systems actually inlined this on their website; it's an interview on the tyra banks show. If you can tolerate three or four minutes of tyra banks before the interview starts, it's pretty good, and they talk to some of the women the "trainees" tried to pick up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y02bMMOIcFU
This is another interview with a dude named Jack Coxwell (apparently his real name) who is a newer PUA "instructor." There is apparently some debate in the community about his legitimacy but he's producing videos and seems to be charging for coaching, so maybe he is legit enough. This is part three, but the first two parts of it are pretty good also.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlPzUHUfyDo
It's hard to find a good interview with Mystery because it's usually either totally sychophantic or a hit piece, but if you watch his VH1 show the focus is hardly ever on 'oh this girl was an eight or this one was only a seven," or "man women suck" or anything like that. This is a clip I found from some oldish talk show that gets a little into "look here is why guys actually come to us."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC5A9pep-UQ
Here is Neil Strauss (who is the guy who wrote The Game and basically 'broke' the whole PUA story) on kimmel, and also mystery on kimmel. The Strauss interview is one of the funniest things ever if you pay attention to Alba instead of Strauss/Kimmel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC0hrqbhx5M&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9eivMGfsJQ&feature=related
I haven't made any sort of serious study of the stuff (although I did enjoy The Game and watching the VH1 show), and I'm also in the hole of trying to prove a negative, so I guess I'll just leave it here. But I mean, if there's someone somewhere saying "what is important is casual sex with hot women and bragging about it to your friends, and I will teach you how," I haven't seen it. And I don't think it exists, aside from some seedy websites.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
This is D&D, for god's sake.
Where the hell do you even get clothes like that? Spencer's Gifts?
All my knowledge on the topic stems from Neil Strauss' "The Game" (great read, by the way), but the logic behind it seems to be sound. Women go to the clubs and pubs, and there are TONS of guys there. You need something to stand out from the crowd and seem interesting.
It's essentially marketing yourself.
With a Halloween costume?
I mean the kimmel outfit isn't really anything more than 'hipster with a funny hat,' and the first video is nearly normal
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
I always get the ladies when I'm wearing sequins. :winky:
My luck with women comes and goes, but even when it seems like I'll never find anyone right, thinking that I need to look somewhere for help has never crossed my mind. I think I just have a completely different mindset than the people that use this stuff to better themselves or to score with chicks.
I started reading The Game thanks to Tycho and Gabe's great debate. I gotta say its well written and a really fun read. I'm grateful to it as well becuase it made me realize I'm not the only 22 year old guy out there who has never been intimate with a female and that maybe with a little work I can change that. I'm so fucking bad at socializing I don't even have male friends. I've decided to start fresh this fall and I'm gonna try actually talking to people.