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18-year-old U.S. Solider is alleged hitman for Mexican cartel

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Posts

  • TaranisTaranis Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Reckless wrote: »
    Gahmrious wrote: »
    Reckless wrote: »
    Gahmrious wrote: »
    Reckless wrote: »
    Would killing a human be easier if the risk of punishment was similarly nil?

    I agree with you in principle, but consider that in the Military, they give you more pay and nice bits of metal for killing lots of folk. So not only is the risk of punishment nil, but in this situation there is a promise of reward.

    Where the hell is this coming from? So pilots that drop bombs must be making millions?

    We can safely assume more successful bomb drops translates into promotions, which nets a bomber pilot a higher pay grade. A USAF pilot out of ROTC or Colorado Springs may start off as a 2nd Lieutenant making around $30,000 annually. As more bomb runs are completed and promotions are incurred, that theoretical pilot can make his or her way to the rank and pay grade of Colonel, netting a promotion and increased salary of up to $108,000.


    I love your use of the word assume. Like you're assuming there arent facts already out there that dictate how the promotion system works. What you're trying to say is that , if by some random occurance that myself, SSgt, E-5 low on the totem pole, stumbles upon an enemy gun nest while walking to Burger King , and eliminates all 20 enemy soldiers, that at some point within the near future I'll be promoted to God King of Men, and make 500000000$. Seriously, make your fucking point and get over the thread, because what you're trying to say is total bullshit.

    It isn't bullshit, and you're not doing your line of argument any service by being ridiculous. A situation was proposed questioning a correlation between a bomber pilot's "kills" and his pay, and I returned with what I view to be a correlation that exists in the real world.

    And, if your hyperbolic scenario were to occur, I think a promotion would likely occur and your pay grade would raise accordingly. Don't you?

    Edit: If I'm wrong on military promotions, enlighten me as to why I'm incorrect. Telling me I'm wrong does nothing to change the situation of my being wrong, which I'd like to do.

    Competency is what gets a soldier promoted. True, competency is occasionally demonstrated by the unit's success rate in regards to the missions it takes part in. However killing the enemy isn't the primary objective of most soldiers since only a minority of the military are combat arms. Even soldiers with combat arms MOS's, killing is rarely the objective. Normally the objective is to capture an HVT, gathering intel, escort noncombat arms MOS's like Civil Affairs, etc. The completion of these tasks does not require killing. On the battlefield, the chain of command will rarely know how many of the enemy you killed, but they will know whether or not you sufficiently performed your assigned task and this is what will cause you to receive awards and promotions in most cases.

    Also, killing can often be detrimental to your cause in a counter insurgency campaign.

    Taranis on
    EH28YFo.jpg
  • RecklessReckless Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Taranis wrote: »
    Reckless wrote: »
    Gahmrious wrote: »
    Reckless wrote: »
    Gahmrious wrote: »
    Reckless wrote: »
    Would killing a human be easier if the risk of punishment was similarly nil?

    I agree with you in principle, but consider that in the Military, they give you more pay and nice bits of metal for killing lots of folk. So not only is the risk of punishment nil, but in this situation there is a promise of reward.

    Where the hell is this coming from? So pilots that drop bombs must be making millions?

    We can safely assume more successful bomb drops translates into promotions, which nets a bomber pilot a higher pay grade. A USAF pilot out of ROTC or Colorado Springs may start off as a 2nd Lieutenant making around $30,000 annually. As more bomb runs are completed and promotions are incurred, that theoretical pilot can make his or her way to the rank and pay grade of Colonel, netting a promotion and increased salary of up to $108,000.


    I love your use of the word assume. Like you're assuming there arent facts already out there that dictate how the promotion system works. What you're trying to say is that , if by some random occurance that myself, SSgt, E-5 low on the totem pole, stumbles upon an enemy gun nest while walking to Burger King , and eliminates all 20 enemy soldiers, that at some point within the near future I'll be promoted to God King of Men, and make 500000000$. Seriously, make your fucking point and get over the thread, because what you're trying to say is total bullshit.

    It isn't bullshit, and you're not doing your line of argument any service by being ridiculous. A situation was proposed questioning a correlation between a bomber pilot's "kills" and his pay, and I returned with what I view to be a correlation that exists in the real world.

    And, if your hyperbolic scenario were to occur, I think a promotion would likely occur and your pay grade would raise accordingly. Don't you?

    Edit: If I'm wrong on military promotions, enlighten me as to why I'm incorrect. Telling me I'm wrong does nothing to change the situation of my being wrong, which I'd like to do.

    Competency is what gets a soldier promoted. True, competency is occasionally demonstrated by the unit's success rate in regards to the missions it takes part in. However killing the enemy isn't the primary objective of most soldiers since only a minority of the military are combat arms. Even soldiers with combat arms MOS's, killing is rarely the objective. Normally the objective is to capture an HVT, gathering intel, escort noncombat arms MOS's like Civil Affairs, etc. The completion of these tasks does not require killing. On the battlefield, the chain of command will rarely know how many of the enemy you killed, but they will know whether or not you sufficiently performed your assigned task and this is what will cause you to receive awards and promotions in most cases.

    Also, killing can often be detrimental to your cause in a counter insurgency campaign.

    Thank you, this is what I wanted. I do partially regret making this thread, and I apologize if my views on the military have offended anybody and am glad of the alternative viewpoints posted, especially this one here.

    I'm backing out of this now.

    Reckless on
  • MarauderMarauder Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    I think the OP is wrongfully assuming that the "Military" turned him into a senseless killing machine, willing to loan himself out for hire. I don't even think the story mentions the dudes MOS, he could have been a god damned truck driver for all we know.

    You also have to take into consideration precedent for this shit, especially considering the ties to Mexico. There was an excellent History channel Gangland special on about MS13, the notorious central american and Southwestern US gang. The story detailed a banger who was recruited in middle school by the gang, was sponsored and encouraged to do good in school, and then immediately went Army special forces out of high school. He deliberately avoided criminal activities and tatoos so as not to tip off the recruiters.

    The Army then trained him in spec ops, demolition, and small unit tactics. He left the military 2 years later and proceeded to become a trainer for MS13, relaying everything the military just taught him to his gang.

    The military didnt give him the intent to become a murdering son of a bitch. Some people just have that going in.

    The reason they found all this out? Dude was on point during a liquor store robbery, and proceeded to use an AK47 and his army training to make short work of 2 responding officers...all caught on tape.

    Marauder on
  • Tiger BurningTiger Burning Dig if you will, the pictureRegistered User, SolidSaints Tube regular
    edited August 2009
    On a related and more interesting note, there have been a number of reports of criminal gang members joining the military to receive "free" training, and for recruiting purposes.

    Tiger Burning on
    Ain't no particular sign I'm more compatible with
  • HeartlashHeartlash Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    _J_ wrote: »
    Heartlash wrote: »
    _J_ wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    you and them should be locked up for the safety of the rest of us

    The rest of us who do not kill people as a result of fear of punishment.

    Actually I'm pretty sure I wouldn't kill people because of, you know, empathy.

    Most people who aren't sociopaths have it.

    If we understand empathy as "putting one's self in another's place" and we understand death as a kind of punishment then empathy would also be fear of punishment.

    "I do not kill them because I do not want to be killed." That kind of thing.

    In the context death was used earlier, it was not implied as societal punishment, see:
    Kyouga wrote:
    The only thing that keeps me from murdering the person next to me for singing to herself is the consequences our society places on such an action.

    A quote which you supported with:
    It has to do more with punishment than simply being caught.

    Murder does not necessarily equal punishment in the relevant sense that the word punishment is used. To imply that punishment (read: from society) is the only reason we don't murder is short sighted. Punishment comes after the fact, mental traits like empathy and sympathy come before.

    I do not want to murder people because I do not want to be murdered =/= I do not want to murder people because I do not want to be punished.

    Heartlash on
    My indie mobile gaming studio: Elder Aeons
    Our first game is now available for free on Google Play: Frontier: Isle of the Seven Gods
  • GungHoGungHo Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Dyscord wrote: »
    Lack of retention and exit services in the U.S.' military is sort of a problem in that it leads young ex-soldiers to become mercenaries (or worse, apparently, hit men.)
    Eh...

    Regarding Mercenaries:
    People become mercenaries/contractors because they're actively recruited by people looking for those job skills, especially if they were in certain MOS. Think about the job faires at universities that are looking for the top 25% of the class who majored in certain courses. Same idea. More low key. The difference in pay for joining a defense contractor is amazing, as are the benefits they offer. Again, same for kids coming out of a university looking to go corporate. I was floored when I saw what was offered to me. It's more than I make now, and I've gone back into the private sector, gone to university, and am a supervisor at a large company. Maybe you can fault the gov't for not paying its soldiers enough, but when someone else comes along with tons of resources to throw at your men... it's like faulting Anadarko for not being able to beat Chevron-Texaco's headhunters.

    Regarding "hit men":
    You think maybe this guy could have been a thug before he went into the Army? Everyone from all walks of life go into the armed forces, from rich kids to poor kids, from people who worked at McDonalds to people who were criminals before they went in. Some people, when they get out, go right back to McDonalds or go right back to crime. Some clean up their act and go on to better things. It all depends on how they apply things they learned and whether or not they choose to do anything with their experience.

    Military training isn't magical. It has the same external forces exerted on it as any other occupation/schooling, and those forces are introduced by not only the people around the system and the people already in the system, but people who are going into the system.
    Reckless wrote: »
    I like this point quite a bit. However, isn't a large portion of military training about removing a trainee's free will?
    Not really. You're expected to follow orders and fight where and when you're told to fight, but you're not scrubbed of morality nor are you encouraged to kick puppies, push old ladies down the stairs, or take candy from small children.
    Reckless wrote: »
    I agree with you in principle, but consider that in the Military, they give you more pay and nice bits of metal for killing lots of folk. So not only is the risk of punishment nil, but in this situation there is a promise of reward.
    I don't want to seem rude, but you might want to regroup and re-research this line of thought, because anyone who told you this was making shit up and you need to stop propogating it, as otherwise people will start to believe you're the one making shit up.
    Reckless wrote: »
    We can safely assume more successful bomb drops translates into promotions, which nets a bomber pilot a higher pay grade. A USAF pilot out of ROTC or Colorado Springs may start off as a 2nd Lieutenant making around $30,000 annually. As more bomb runs are completed and promotions are incurred, that theoretical pilot can make his or her way to the rank and pay grade of Colonel, netting a promotion and increased salary of up to $108,000.
    It doesn't matter how you couch this or how many 5-dollar words you attempt to insert, this is a gross simplification that, following your previous train of thought, displays a lack of understanding of not only what it takes to be promoted as an officer, but also what "successful bomb drops" actually means.

    These days, "successful bomb drops" doesn't mean maximizing death. In fact, if you haven't noticed, we've spent a hell of a lot of money in the last 30 years doing the exact opposite. Success hasn't been determined by deaths since we were deliberately slaughtering buffalo.

    GungHo on
  • TaranisTaranis Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    He was in an ADA Brigade. So we know what his MOS wasn't.

    Taranis on
    EH28YFo.jpg
  • MarauderMarauder Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    What? AD artillerymen aren't trained in ninja hit squad tactics with a minor in contract killing? Who knew :)

    Seriously this looks like a "he jut happened to be active duty when he decided to be a fuckwad."

    Trying to link this to some overarching "military service turns you into a merc" argument is flawed. That argument CAN be made about some jobs in the services, but not broadbrushing like that.

    Marauder on
  • BubbaTBubbaT Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Marauder wrote: »
    I think the OP is wrongfully assuming that the "Military" turned him into a senseless killing machine, willing to loan himself out for hire. I don't even think the story mentions the dudes MOS, he could have been a god damned truck driver for all we know.

    You also have to take into consideration precedent for this shit, especially considering the ties to Mexico. There was an excellent History channel Gangland special on about MS13, the notorious central american and Southwestern US gang. The story detailed a banger who was recruited in middle school by the gang, was sponsored and encouraged to do good in school, and then immediately went Army special forces out of high school. He deliberately avoided criminal activities and tatoos so as not to tip off the recruiters.

    The Army then trained him in spec ops, demolition, and small unit tactics. He left the military 2 years later and proceeded to become a trainer for MS13, relaying everything the military just taught him to his gang.

    The military didnt give him the intent to become a murdering son of a bitch. Some people just have that going in.

    The reason they found all this out? Dude was on point during a liquor store robbery, and proceeded to use an AK47 and his army training to make short work of 2 responding officers...all caught on tape.

    Yeah, this is becoming a more common practice throughout the country. Tactics for room clearing, for example, are easily adapted to home invasions. And if your rival gang has knowledge of close combat tactics and urban warfare, you had better catch up quick or get wiped out. The heyday of gang warfare consisting of blindly firing a sideways-held Mac-10 out of a speeding car window is probably past.

    I think that Gangland episode even talked about how gang-affiliated graffiti is starting to pop up all over Iraq and Afghanistan.


    It's also worth pointing out that there have been many active or aspiring gang members who entered into military service and found something there that led them to abandon that lifestyle in favor of something more constructive and law-abiding.

    BubbaT on
  • JokermanJokerman Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Taranis wrote: »
    Reckless wrote: »
    Gahmrious wrote: »
    Reckless wrote: »
    Gahmrious wrote: »
    Reckless wrote: »
    Would killing a human be easier if the risk of punishment was similarly nil?

    I agree with you in principle, but consider that in the Military, they give you more pay and nice bits of metal for killing lots of folk. So not only is the risk of punishment nil, but in this situation there is a promise of reward.

    Where the hell is this coming from? So pilots that drop bombs must be making millions?

    We can safely assume more successful bomb drops translates into promotions, which nets a bomber pilot a higher pay grade. A USAF pilot out of ROTC or Colorado Springs may start off as a 2nd Lieutenant making around $30,000 annually. As more bomb runs are completed and promotions are incurred, that theoretical pilot can make his or her way to the rank and pay grade of Colonel, netting a promotion and increased salary of up to $108,000.


    I love your use of the word assume. Like you're assuming there arent facts already out there that dictate how the promotion system works. What you're trying to say is that , if by some random occurance that myself, SSgt, E-5 low on the totem pole, stumbles upon an enemy gun nest while walking to Burger King , and eliminates all 20 enemy soldiers, that at some point within the near future I'll be promoted to God King of Men, and make 500000000$. Seriously, make your fucking point and get over the thread, because what you're trying to say is total bullshit.

    It isn't bullshit, and you're not doing your line of argument any service by being ridiculous. A situation was proposed questioning a correlation between a bomber pilot's "kills" and his pay, and I returned with what I view to be a correlation that exists in the real world.

    And, if your hyperbolic scenario were to occur, I think a promotion would likely occur and your pay grade would raise accordingly. Don't you?

    Edit: If I'm wrong on military promotions, enlighten me as to why I'm incorrect. Telling me I'm wrong does nothing to change the situation of my being wrong, which I'd like to do.

    Competency is what gets a soldier promoted. True, competency is occasionally demonstrated by the unit's success rate in regards to the missions it takes part in. However killing the enemy isn't the primary objective of most soldiers since only a minority of the military are combat arms. Even soldiers with combat arms MOS's, killing is rarely the objective. Normally the objective is to capture an HVT, gathering intel, escort noncombat arms MOS's like Civil Affairs, etc. The completion of these tasks does not require killing. On the battlefield, the chain of command will rarely know how many of the enemy you killed, but they will know whether or not you sufficiently performed your assigned task and this is what will cause you to receive awards and promotions in most cases.

    Also, killing can often be detrimental to your cause in a counter insurgency campaign.

    Case in point: Alvin fucking York.

    now apparently, the OP is not familar with one of the army's most bad ass soldiers, Sgt. York.

    See Sgt. York was fighting in ww1 against a metric shitton of germans when he came under fire. He returned fire with his pistol and was such a BAMF that the entire shitton of germans surendered.
    The man is considered a hero to this day, not because of the men he killed but because of the enemies he captured. The army is full of examples of men and women who through couraged managed to accouplish the mission, usualy with few enemy casualties, and are lorded as hero's.

    Jokerman on
  • KageraKagera Imitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Case in point, any member of any military's medical units.

    Kagera on
    My neck, my back, my FUPA and my crack.
  • EchoEcho ski-bap ba-dapModerator, Administrator admin
    edited August 2009
    Kagera wrote: »
    Case in point, any member of any military's medical units.
    wellness.jpg

    Echo on
  • AzioAzio Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    When I read the insufferable soldier-worship, blind militarism and breathless apologism that run rampant in this thread, is it really any wonder a majority of Americans were manipulated into supporting a multi-trillion-dollar war of aggression against a random country? Am I supposed to believe this won't happen again in a few years just because the president is a Democrat? You guys really need to get your heads out of your asses.

    Azio on
  • Gabriel_PittGabriel_Pitt Stepped in it Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Azio wrote: »
    I really need to get my head out of my ass.
    Limed for truth, and never has a forum poster had more fitting self-bestowed title.

    Anyways, since you're obviously also in the wrong thread, what on earth were you reading that had, "insufferable soldier-worship, blind militarism and breathless apologism?"

    Gabriel_Pitt on
  • TaranisTaranis Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    I must've misinterpreted every post in this thread, because I haven't seen any examples of soldier worship. Though that's understandable, because my head's up my ass right?

    Thank god for text to speech or I wouldn't even be able to read posts.

    Taranis on
    EH28YFo.jpg
  • KageraKagera Imitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    I have to say Azio's post sounds like some sort of cut and paste job from an insult generator.

    Kagera on
    My neck, my back, my FUPA and my crack.
  • Handsome CostanzaHandsome Costanza Ask me about 8bitdo RIP Iwata-sanRegistered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Azio wrote: »
    When I read the insufferable soldier-worship, blind militarism and breathless apologism that run rampant in this thread, is it really any wonder a majority of Americans were manipulated into supporting a multi-trillion-dollar war of aggression against a random country? Am I supposed to believe this won't happen again in a few years just because the president is a Democrat? You guys really need to get your heads out of your asses.

    yo son

    you know the white man gonna do wutevah the fuck he wants to anyway, right?


    so if there was no volunteer soldiers to go and fight you know george bush would have drafted us anyway


    so really yo dumb ass should thank them for taking your place, cause it was gonna happen anyway, dawg.




    Am I doing this right?


    edit: I didn't have the heart to spell soldier as 'souljah'. I just couldn't do it. :(

    Handsome Costanza on
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  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Azio wrote: »
    When I read the insufferable soldier-worship, blind militarism and breathless apologism that run rampant in this thread, is it really any wonder a majority of Americans were manipulated into supporting a multi-trillion-dollar war of aggression against a random country? Am I supposed to believe this won't happen again in a few years just because the president is a Democrat? You guys really need to get your heads out of your asses.
    I'm betting sarcasm here.

    Quid on
  • sportzboytjwsportzboytjw squeeeeeezzeeee some more tax breaks outRegistered User regular
    edited July 2012
    Reckless wrote:
    http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/08/11/texas.soldier.arrested/index.html
    CNN wrote:
    Pfc. Michael Jackson Apodaca, 18, was one of three men arrested Monday in connection with the shooting death of the mid-level drug cartel member who also worked as an informant for the United States, according to a complaint affidavit.

    In summary, 18-year-old kid from Texas joins the Army, learns how to operate a variety of weapons, and is taught to disregard the negative emotions associated with taking a human life in boot camp. He then goes and markets the skills he's learned in the Army, and is subsequently arrested because killing is bad again once you're not wearing green fatigues and shooting at "insurgents."

    If you can't tell, this story strikes a nerve with me. Is it fair to prosecute this kid to the fullest extent of the law given the fact that he was, essentially, a trained killer? If he was your basic grunt, he wasn't going to have a lot of marketable skills coming out of Basic. Philosophically speaking, is it right to train somebody to be a killer and little else, then punish them when they choose to exercise that training? Or am I a huge jerk for seeing this the way I do?

    Yes it is fair. He chose to gain the training, then ignore the parts about who and when you shoot. Where are you getting the "few marketable skills" thing? He was still in the US Army, so it's not like he wasn't getting paid for his skills that had been taught to him. He was also vesting a GI BIll, which (as I can tell you) is fantastic if you can make it through your four years.

    This is a guy who was either crazy, or as his Grandpa says:
    Grandpa wrote:
    "He was in the top of his class," said Dave Jackson, his grandfather. "You talk to all his sergeants. He's a good soldier. Now, before he went in (and joined the Army), he was in, he was in with a bad crowd."

    PS @echo thank you for changing that hideous avvy.

    sportzboytjw on
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  • Delta AssaultDelta Assault Registered User regular
    edited July 2012
    You're a huge jerk for seeing this the way you do.

    You also misspelled "soldier" in the thread title.

    Delta Assault on
  • AllforceAllforce Registered User regular
    Oh hey 2009, I wouldn't be surprised if the kid is already out of jail at this point.

  • DehumanizedDehumanized Registered User regular
    Allforce wrote: »
    Oh hey 2009, I wouldn't be surprised if the kid is already out of jail at this point.

    Looks like the prosecution are seeking the death penalty, as of some 2011 article on the first page of a google search. It's probably still in the courts.

  • HonkHonk Honk is this poster. Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
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