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Impossible Situation - Real Estate

SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren EllisRegistered User regular
edited August 2009 in Help / Advice Forum
I've already posted a couple of threads with regards to my house buying adventure. Well we've been tossed a new curve ball and I have no idea what kind of tact we should be using here.

First, some context. We have found a house and are actually set to close and move in this coming Friday. We currently live in an apartment but our lease is up come the 30th. We've purchased all of our furniture and appliances and all of that is set to be delivered on Friday - the day of our closing.

This morning we receive an email from our agent with a forwarded message from the listing agent. Over the course of the weekend the vendor's son (and three other young men) were killed in a local car accident. Needless to say this is obviously a tragedy. We've been told that closing will no longer happen on Friday - which, despite the contractual obligations, we completely understand. What is basically a mild inconvenience for us (moving delivery/moving dates) is a traumatic life event for this single mother we're buying from.

What worries us is the reality of the situation on our end. Come the 30th we have no place to live and about $10,000 dollars worth of furniture and appliances with no place to go. Beyond that, the vendor could decide that she doesn't want to sell anymore - I mean, I can't imagine losing a son and then having to box his shit up less than a week later and leave everything behind.

How should we play this? We want to sympathetic to her needs but, frankly, we're in a bind. Thoughts?

SatanIsMyMotor on

Posts

  • Richard_DastardlyRichard_Dastardly Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Are you buying the furniture from a single source? Perhaps you could have it delivered to a storage facility. And, as far as your apartment goes, would you be able to renew on a month-by-month basis?

    Is it possible to have a legally-authorized represent the other side at closing? Of course what happened was a tragedy, but you're also in a bind and don't have many options.

    Richard_Dastardly on
  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Our apartment is rented and there is no such thing as a month to month lease in this city. The furniture isn't a huge issue. I imagine we can simply have them store it at their warehouse and have it delivered when we're ready.

    SatanIsMyMotor on
  • Sir Headless VIISir Headless VII Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    For one thing when I bought my condo there was a specific clause in the sale contract that dealt with death of one of the parties, and if it were my house the mother could not decide that she just doesn't want to sell it anymore. You could look at what you signed. Also can't you just get the furniture delivered at a later date? if you tell them you will have no use for it and be forced to return it otherwise they should be fairly accommodating.

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  • CoJoeTheLawyerCoJoeTheLawyer Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Well...you're between the rock and a hard place.

    My advice is to have your agent and the listing agent feel out the situation. You have about a week to figure out if she is going to follow through on the contact or if it's going to go to pot. Since your lease ends the 30th, you have about two weeks to make arrangements. Maybe contact your current landlord to see if they'd be willing to give you a 30-day extension. If I were you, I would also look into finding a short-term storage solution for your new furniture and appliances in case the deal falls through. Storage facilities with insurance are the best bet.

    The attorney in me says you can bring legal action against her if she backs out of the deal now, but that’s not really what you’re asking. Plus, I think the last thing this lady needs is someone threatening her with a lawsuit.

    CoJoeTheLawyer on

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  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Update.

    Word is now that she's backing out of the agreement. She's asked for two additional weeks just to decide what it is that she wants to do. Our lawyer advised us against going with that as, after two weeks, she could just ask for 2 more. Regardless we lose our interest rate by month's end so two weeks is not an option for us as we'd have to completely revamp our financing which would in turn affect the purchase and sale agreement.

    What I need here is anecdotal legal advice. I want to sue this lady but I have no idea what we can sue her for. We have no place to live. A mortgage rate that will raise more than a full percentage point. Over $10K in new furniture and appliances with no place to go. All of our vacation time at work gone because of time off to work through this deal and now we need to take more time off to find a new place.

    This lady was also buying another home - which she's also backing out of. The people she was buying from are half way through the construction of a new home so I'm sure they will be sueing her as well.

    I know that what she's going through is a terrible thing (her son was killed whilst street racing) but it does not justify putting two families in this situation. My hope is that just the threat of legal action will spur her to put aside her grief, or put someone else in power as a proxy, so that she does go through with it. If she doesn't then fine, but we need to be compensated for all of our loses here.

    SatanIsMyMotor on
  • Mr BlondeMr Blonde Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Promissory Estoppel is what you're looking for. Contact a real estate attorney pronto.

    Mr Blonde on
  • illigillig Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    that's what you have a real estate lawyer for... have him enforce the contract

    illig on
  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    illig wrote: »
    that's what you have a real estate lawyer for... have him enforce the contract

    Which we're doing. I'm wondering, in the interim between today and tomorrow when we speak to the lawyer, what are options are in terms of compensation.

    SatanIsMyMotor on
  • matt has a problemmatt has a problem Points to 'off' Points to 'on'Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Basically you sue for damages, just like any other lawsuit. Any fees you've paid up to this point, the costs you're going to incur storing the furniture, searching for a new house, pretty much any money that you're going to have to now pay you sue for. Including rent you're going to have to pay since I'm assuming you'll be moving back into an apartment, and if not, whatever you have to pay in hotel fees for a place to stay. You figure out what the difference in interest you're going to have to pay, and add that on too. A signed contract is a signed contract, no matter how unfortunate the circumstances are that cause it to be broken.

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  • mtsmts Dr. Robot King Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    was it her house or the son's?

    depending on the clauses she might have a viable reason for breaking teh contract

    mts on
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  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    mts wrote: »
    was it her house or the son's?

    depending on the clauses she might have a viable reason for breaking teh contract

    It's her house.
    Gah, this is going to be such a friggen mess.

    SatanIsMyMotor on
  • saltinesssaltiness Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Basically you sue for damages, just like any other lawsuit. Any fees you've paid up to this point, the costs you're going to incur storing the furniture, searching for a new house, pretty much any money that you're going to have to now pay you sue for. Including rent you're going to have to pay since I'm assuming you'll be moving back into an apartment, and if not, whatever you have to pay in hotel fees for a place to stay. You figure out what the difference in interest you're going to have to pay, and add that on too. A signed contract is a signed contract, no matter how unfortunate the circumstances are that cause it to be broken.

    It's a shitty thing to do but this is just what you're going to have to do if she doesn't come to her senses. It's understandable that she's going through very hard times but she's only going to make them much harder by backing out on you and the other seller. Have you had any personal contact with her? You could ask your lawyer if it's a good idea to plead with her personally before playing hard ball.

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  • mtsmts Dr. Robot King Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    he shouldn't have any personal contact with her until the closing. honestly it sounds like she can't legally back out based on what you said, but i would go over your sales agreement , specifically the clauses to breaking the contract. based on ours i don't think death in teh family is standard. but definitely talk to your lawyer/agent. its going to be dirty but you seem to be on the right side.

    mts on
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  • Grid SystemGrid System Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Basically you sue for damages, just like any other lawsuit. Any fees you've paid up to this point, the costs you're going to incur storing the furniture, searching for a new house, pretty much any money that you're going to have to now pay you sue for. Including rent you're going to have to pay since I'm assuming you'll be moving back into an apartment, and if not, whatever you have to pay in hotel fees for a place to stay. You figure out what the difference in interest you're going to have to pay, and add that on too. A signed contract is a signed contract, no matter how unfortunate the circumstances are that cause it to be broken.
    This, too, will be something your lawyer will have to decide, but there's also the option of seeking specific performance of the contract. That'll get you the house (per the terms of the contract), and save you the hassle of having to find another one.

    Grid System on
  • CoJoeTheLawyerCoJoeTheLawyer Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Basically you sue for damages, just like any other lawsuit. Any fees you've paid up to this point, the costs you're going to incur storing the furniture, searching for a new house, pretty much any money that you're going to have to now pay you sue for. Including rent you're going to have to pay since I'm assuming you'll be moving back into an apartment, and if not, whatever you have to pay in hotel fees for a place to stay. You figure out what the difference in interest you're going to have to pay, and add that on too. A signed contract is a signed contract, no matter how unfortunate the circumstances are that cause it to be broken.

    This is for the most part correct. Depending on your state, you may/may not be able to factor in the difference in interest rates, but all immeidate damages you will suffer (rent, storage, atty. fees, difference in price of a comparable new home) can be requested in a lawsuit.

    However, unlike mts, I don't think having personal contact with her is a bad thing. Going to her directly and telling her in so many words "I'm sorry for your lose, but please understand how your decision to back out of our agreement will hurt my family..." may either shake her into changing her mind, or get her to agree to pay damages, avoiding a long, costly lawsuit.

    CoJoeTheLawyer on

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  • FiggyFiggy Fighter of the night man Champion of the sunRegistered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Have you talked to your lawyer yet? Despite it being a tragedy, she can't simply "back out of the sale" here. Call up your lawyer and tell him you want him to contact her lawyer and say you have every intention on following through with the sale. Say that if she does not, you will be taking her to court.

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  • t_catt11t_catt11 Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    I agree. Go to the woman and talk to her. Offer your condolences, but spell out the damage she is incurring to your family. If you have to go to court, you will certainly win, but that could be months from now, and it will certainly be further months beyond that point before you see a dime. In the meantime, you still have nowhere to live and costs will continue to pile up.

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  • MelksterMelkster Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    However, unlike mts, I don't think having personal contact with her is a bad thing. Going to her directly and telling her in so many words "I'm sorry for your lose, but please understand how your decision to back out of our agreement will hurt my family..." may either shake her into changing her mind, or get her to agree to pay damages, avoiding a long, costly lawsuit.

    Someone needs to do this. Maybe not you, but your lawyer or someone.

    Melkster on
  • CoJoeTheLawyerCoJoeTheLawyer Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Melkster wrote: »
    However, unlike mts, I don't think having personal contact with her is a bad thing. Going to her directly and telling her in so many words "I'm sorry for your lose, but please understand how your decision to back out of our agreement will hurt my family..." may either shake her into changing her mind, or get her to agree to pay damages, avoiding a long, costly lawsuit.

    Someone needs to do this. Maybe not you, but your lawyer or someone.

    If the Rules of Professional Conduct are the same in OP's state as in PA, then his lawyer can't talk to the seller directly because she has legal representation, so he would have to talk to her lawyer. But the OP can certianly contact the seller directly.

    CoJoeTheLawyer on

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  • MelksterMelkster Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Melkster wrote: »
    However, unlike mts, I don't think having personal contact with her is a bad thing. Going to her directly and telling her in so many words "I'm sorry for your lose, but please understand how your decision to back out of our agreement will hurt my family..." may either shake her into changing her mind, or get her to agree to pay damages, avoiding a long, costly lawsuit.

    Someone needs to do this. Maybe not you, but your lawyer or someone.

    If the Rules of Professional Conduct are the same in OP's state as in PA, then his lawyer can't talk to the seller directly because she has legal representation, so he would have to talk to her lawyer. But the OP can certianly contact the seller directly.

    Ah. Yeah I have no idea what I'm talking about.

    Other than, you know, talking about problems before escalating to legal action is almost always a really good idea. (Something my mother always told me.)

    Melkster on
  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    I'm actually located in Canada.
    We've now discovered that her lawyer is a complete joke. He's been impossible to get a hold of and has expressed to out lawyer that he "wants to avoid talking to her while this "awkward" situation is taking place".

    So in short, he's scared of her and nothing is being communicated to her.

    SatanIsMyMotor on
  • CoJoeTheLawyerCoJoeTheLawyer Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    I'm actually located in Canada.
    We've now discovered that her lawyer is a complete joke. He's been impossible to get a hold of and has expressed to out lawyer that he "wants to avoid talking to her while this "awkward" situation is taking place".

    So in short, he's scared of her and nothing is being communicated to her.

    After reading this, then I definately think you should speak to her directly. My adivce would be do it in person, not over the phone.

    CoJoeTheLawyer on

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  • MushroomStickMushroomStick Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    I thought that you should never speak directly to someone you might have to sue in the near future.

    MushroomStick on
  • Disco11Disco11 Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    I thought that you should never speak directly to someone you might have to sue in the near future.

    There is truth in this... I can be spun in a very negative light in front of a judge. "He came to my house while I was grieving and demanded that I sell to him!" type thing in tears in front of a judge...

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  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Disco11 wrote: »
    I thought that you should never speak directly to someone you might have to sue in the near future.

    There is truth in this... I can be spun in a very negative light in front of a judge. "He came to my house while I was grieving and demanded that I sell to him!" type thing in tears in front of a judge...

    IANAL, etc.

    I agree that it seems like a bad idea to approach her in person.

    Ask your lawyer what contact (if any, how, by whom, etc) would be appropriate. A card offering your condolances perhaps? As much as you might feel for this woman's loss, grief does not excuse someone from a contract, and "not wanting to contact her during this rough time" sounds like two-bit bullshit to buy time, as they're probably aware that this is a time sensitive arrangement.

    I'm sorry to hear about both the loss and the trouble it's causing your family, but as strong an advocate of doing the humane thing wherever possible, don't do it if it'll jeopardize your future, as an individual or as a family. If you end up having to sue this woman for thousands (or tens of thousands) of dollars based on incurred expenses, you don't need to be handing her any help in her defense.

    I'm a big fan of working things out person to person where possible for small incidents. At 4 to 5 digit figures, it's no longer a small incident, and should be left to the professionals, or at least guided heavily by them.

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  • CoJoeTheLawyerCoJoeTheLawyer Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Disco11 wrote: »
    I thought that you should never speak directly to someone you might have to sue in the near future.

    There is truth in this... I can be spun in a very negative light in front of a judge. "He came to my house while I was grieving and demanded that I sell to him!" type thing in tears in front of a judge...

    It's not quite that black & white. True, if this matter comes to a hearing or trial, she could recount what was said in the conversation in her testimony, but other than embellishments, what is she going to say that is going to be damaging to the OPs case? He is only discussing his case to her why it would be difficult on him if she backs out of the deal.

    Obviously, the OP should be as cordial, polite and non-confrontational as humanly possible if he dose speak with the seller. Absolutely under no circumstances should he bully, threaten, raise his voice at her and/or demand she follow through on the contract, no matter how pissed he gets. Maybe bringing along a wittiness is a good idea. But I think the OP has enough common sense to know all this.

    EDIT: This is more a judgment call thing than anything. Remember, idealy, the OP wants the seller to follow through on the contract, not be in position to best sue her.

    CoJoeTheLawyer on

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  • mtsmts Dr. Robot King Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    i just bought a house and one of the few things our agent told us not to do was try and talk to teh seller directly. its bad for many reasons. unless its a person selling themselves and you are going sans agent. but that is why you get a agent/lawyer. expecially in a situation like this wher you will likely have to sue. basically you are in teh right here and you going to talk to here in person without any representatives there. her lawyer is a smuck is not your problem, yes it sucks but its only going to hurt her in the long run

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  • LaPuzzaLaPuzza Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    illig wrote: »
    that's what you have a real estate lawyer for... have him enforce the contract

    Nope, you have a lawyer to draft a pre-closing occupancy agreement with provision for facsimile signatures.

    LaPuzza on
  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    There's not a chance in hell that we'll be speaking to her directly.
    We've actually found a new place that we like. That being said, we're still going through with the closing tomorrow - though she will likely not go through with it. We've agreed to give her an additional week beyond if she agrees to paying a $5000 penalty plus any other damages we later decide to collect for.
    Best case scenario is that she ends up closing. Worst is that she defaults, we go for the other place, then sue her for damages.

    It will be interesting to see what happens tomorrow (closing day).

    SatanIsMyMotor on
  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Updatearoony

    So closing day has come and gone and we are now moving into a new house. It's actually a nicer house, though it is more expensive. The other thing that sucks is that we don't move in until the 11th of September. This means we'll need to find a place to stay for a couple of weeks.

    On the day of closing we had our lawyer send their lawyer a letter. We basically said we were willing to give her another week if she agreed that should she decide to not close she incurs a $5000 penalty along with whatever damages we sue for. Her real estate agent sent us a nasty email which in turn really pissed me off (it was highly unprofessional). But we never received any word from their lawyer at all. They actually relisted the property without even telling us.

    In the end we've found another spot and they've accepted our offer (this whole thing was another gigantic cluster as well - a story for another time). We'll probably still have to sue the lady for some of the costs we've incurred but we honestly feel better now that she can take her time.

    SatanIsMyMotor on
  • TexiKenTexiKen Dammit! That fish really got me!Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Was the real estate agent getting on your case in a "how dare you try and move into the house after this woman had to go through this!" type of letter?

    Relisting the property after bailing on the deal, that doesn't seem to make sense. Wouldn't the property go completely off the market until she has time to get her bearings together, and then be relisted?

    TexiKen on
  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    TexiKen wrote: »
    Was the real estate agent getting on your case in a "how dare you try and move into the house after this woman had to go through this!" type of letter?

    Relisting the property after bailing on the deal, that doesn't seem to make sense. Wouldn't the property go completely off the market until she has time to get her bearings together, and then be relisted?

    Yes, that's exactly how the agent was coming off.

    As for relisting the property - I can't really speculate. We kind of thought it was just a "fuck you" to us since we wouldn't agree to her pushing the close date more than a month with no guarantee she'd ever actually pull through.

    SatanIsMyMotor on
  • FiggyFiggy Fighter of the night man Champion of the sunRegistered User regular
    edited August 2009
    I'm pretty sure she can't relist that property so quickly, because of what is called the "hold over" period after each listing. I could be wrong, as it might not pertain to this situation, but I know a property cannot be re-listed under the MLS until 60 days have passed since the original listing came down, as a way to prevent people from avoiding paying realtor commissions.

    In any event, do not forget that your biggest loss here is your interest rate. You said that you would lose your original rate if this deal didn't go through.. did your bank/lender end up honoring the original rate?

    I'm going to assume that rate was around 3.5% to 4%? The new rate you would get today would be closer to 6%. That's a six figure difference over the course of your mortgage. Forget the money you might have spent on an inspector, forget the cost of moving, forget the cost of finding a place to stay for 2 weeks.. that interest alone is the kicker.

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