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Media, Batshit Insanity, And Boycotts

AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
edited December 2009 in Debate and/or Discourse
So, as some of you may or may not know, Microsoft is releasing their highly anticipated Arcade title Shadow Complex this week. I was initially interested in the game, as it looked like a well done 2D exploratory platformer in the vein of Super Metroid and other similar games. Then I found out that the developers had worked with Orson Scott Card to create the backstory of the game world. Needless to say, my enthusiasm very quickly waned, thanks to Card's out and out bigotry.

This has made me wonder, though, how the rest of you feel about boycotting material because of the people involved, even if the product has nothing to do with why you're upset. I know that I pretty much avoid any movie that Tom Cruise or Mel Gibson is in these days, mainly because of their stances in their personal lives. Do any of you think that doing so is logical or justified? Are there any people you avoid consuming media from because of their personal views? Do you think that this actually works?

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  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    It's justified in the sense that it's a free country and if you don't want a bigot to get paid that's your perogative, but with things this far removed from the person in question, I don't think it's very effective.

    If the game is good almost everyone will play it, regardless. If it sucks there's no reason for a boycott.

    Boycotts are effective when there are immediate concessions they can ask for. The concession in this case is what, exactly? Okay, we'll go back in time and not hire OSC?

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Dyscord wrote: »
    It's justified in the sense that it's a free country and if you don't want a bigot to get paid that's your perogative, but with things this far removed from the person in question, I don't think it's very effective.

    If the game is good almost everyone will play it, regardless. If it sucks there's no reason for a boycott.

    Boycotts are effective when there are immediate concessions they can ask for. The concession in this case is what, exactly? Okay, we'll go back in time and not hire OSC?

    The point is to say that hiring people that are bigots and such comes with a cost. If the company realizes that they lost a number of sales due to his involvement, then next time, they won't use him, and other companies wont even work with him in the first place.

    AngelHedgie on
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  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    I understand that, it just isn't effective at this distant a level of involvement. You can't motivate a lot of people to boycott a game to stop a guy from getting work in the future if the game is decent and his involvement is obscure enough that no one will ever be clear on what it was.

    It would be different if it was like, Ender's Game 360 and he was much more publicly associated with it. And even then people wouldn't really care.

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
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  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Dyscord wrote: »
    It's justified in the sense that it's a free country and if you don't want a bigot to get paid that's your perogative, but with things this far removed from the person in question, I don't think it's very effective.

    If the game is good almost everyone will play it, regardless. If it sucks there's no reason for a boycott.

    Boycotts are effective when there are immediate concessions they can ask for. The concession in this case is what, exactly? Okay, we'll go back in time and not hire OSC?

    The point is to say that hiring people that are bigots and such comes with a cost. If the company realizes that they lost a number of sales due to his involvement, then next time, they won't use him, and other companies wont even work with him in the first place.

    Right, but now you've got to convince them that they lost more sales by hiring than they gained by hiring him. Not sure how that works out in this case, but I'm pretty sure Tom Cruise puts more asses in seats than he pushes out of them. Absent a concerted effort to convince others to join your boycott, your efforts are going to produce a negligible result.

    So, aside from possibly making you feel better (and maybe you should), they don't really "work."

    Though I'll say I was completely unaware of OSC's views, and now that I am I'll probably go ahead and skip his books (which had previously been recommended to me). So there's that. Little victories, and all.

    mcdermott on
  • Johnny ChopsockyJohnny Chopsocky Scootaloo! We have to cook! Grillin' HaysenburgersRegistered User regular
    edited August 2009
    I find boycotting things on the basis of the beliefs/actions of the actors or directors therein is silly. You can miss out on some great stuff that way.

    While working at Blockbuster right after 'Pirates of the Caribbean' hit DVD, a customer asked me about some good new releases. I pushed 'POTC', and he responded with "I'm not watching that, that Johnny Depp fella hates America!" Which, while it didn't blow my mind to hear, still made me to the mental eye-roll.

    I let entertainment justify its own existence. Sure, you may see it as making a stand on something you believe it, but I see it as missing a damn fine piece of entertainment.

    Tom Cruise is crazy. Mel Gibson is an ass. But that doesn't make Cruise performance in 'Collateral' not fantastic and it doesn't keep 'Lethal Weapon' from being one of my favorite movies ever.

    Johnny Chopsocky on
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  • CervetusCervetus Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    I think the most effective solution would be to play it, enjoy it, and then hit the internet to hail it as "Fabulous."

    On a more serious note, he's such a small part of the game considering how many people are involved in making one that your protest would be lost on anyone else. For one thing, there are probably ten times more people willing to boycott anything Microsoft to drown you out. That said, you personally might feel more comfortable abstaining, and if that's true then nobody should judge you because you would be on the moral high ground.

    Cervetus on
  • ZombiemamboZombiemambo Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Cervetus wrote: »
    I think the most effective solution would be to play it, enjoy it, and then hit the internet to hail it as "Fabulous."

    On a more serious note, he's such a small part of the game considering how many people are involved in making one that your protest would be lost on anyone else. For one thing, there are probably ten times more people willing to boycott anything Microsoft to drown you out. That said, you personally might feel more comfortable abstaining, and if that's true then nobody should judge you because you would be on the moral high ground.

    But if he had close to nothing to do with it, and you want to play the game otherwise, you're not supporting the people who made the game that had a lot more to do with the reasons you wanted to play it in the first place. Basically, your boycott has little effect and your lack of support for the people you don't have a problem with has a much greater effect.

    Zombiemambo on
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  • Squirminator2kSquirminator2k they/them North Hollywood, CARegistered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Must ask, AngelHedgie, did you play The Secret of Monkey Island, either when it came out back in 1990 or the recent Special Edition? Because he contributed to the sword fight insults. We've no idea which ones he contributed, and indeed we've no idea if he was even paid for them. He could've just been passing the LucasFilm Games offices at some point in 1989 and thrown some ideas into the hat.

    The fact that this is a reasonably high-profile bigot seems to be your biggest problem, though. For all you know the Texture Artist is a member of the Klan. Maybe the Sound Engineer collects Gollywog dolls. You don't know. But you do know about OSC, and that bothers you.

    And why should it? At the end of the day it doesn't really make any real impact on the end product. Justin Hawkins is an arrogant cock but that doesn't mean that The Darkness' debut album, "Permission to Land", wasn't one of the best albums of 2003. Scott Kurtz is a frank guy, and often he will say something and piss off huge swathes of people, and yet PvP is undoubtedly one of the best webcomics on the internet. Orson Scott Card is a bit of a homophobe, and somehow Ender's Game is still one of the best scifi novels of the 20th century.

    Supporting someone's creative output is a completely different thing entirely from supporting their views, opinions and convictions.

    Squirminator2k on
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  • RustRust __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2009
    Scott Kurtz is a frank guy, and often he will say something and piss off huge swathes of people, and yet PvP is undoubtedly one of the best webcomics on the internet.

    Ehhhhh

    Still yeah this seems like the kind of thing that's not worth getting worked up over until we see how the game actually turns out.

    Rust on
  • ronyaronya Arrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Dyscord wrote: »
    It's justified in the sense that it's a free country and if you don't want a bigot to get paid that's your perogative, but with things this far removed from the person in question, I don't think it's very effective.

    If the game is good almost everyone will play it, regardless. If it sucks there's no reason for a boycott.

    Boycotts are effective when there are immediate concessions they can ask for. The concession in this case is what, exactly? Okay, we'll go back in time and not hire OSC?

    The point is to say that hiring people that are bigots and such comes with a cost. If the company realizes that they lost a number of sales due to his involvement, then next time, they won't use him, and other companies wont even work with him in the first place.

    You also need to get your message to the company, otherwise your lost sale just gets lost in the noise. Lost sales due to a boycott over a single author involved in a single aspect of game development would be completely overwhelmed by those lost to, say, piracy. or DRM boycotts.

    Put it this way: you'll have a far greater impact penning a letter to the developers involved, or contacting a rights group to ask them to criticise Microsoft and/or Chair Entertainment and/or Epic games. At least your message will be heard! A boycott is only effective once you organise it to the point where it demonstrably affects a sizable percentage of sales.

    ronya on
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  • King RiptorKing Riptor Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Being a fan of Comic books I tend to boycott a lot of books simply because of whose involved.

    Pat Lee for example still gets work despite literally screwing over every employee of dreamwave and hiding in china for like 3 years.

    So until he pays his employees I am glad to not pay a red cent for his work. I have sent marvel,DC,and Wizard letters( like many others) flat out telling them I will not purchase a book he works on.

    He still gets work because apparently being a corporate screw up wasn't a popular crime yet.


    Now with Card I can understand not liking his personal views but unless it leaks into his work I'm not sure it should matter. I mean Gene Roddenberry had tons of personal problems but why boycott Star Trek?

    King Riptor on
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  • GrisloGrislo Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    So, as some of you may or may not know, Microsoft is releasing their highly anticipated Arcade title Shadow Complex this week. I was initially interested in the game, as it looked like a well done 2D exploratory platformer in the vein of Super Metroid and other similar games. Then I found out that the developers had worked with Orson Scott Card to create the backstory of the game world. Needless to say, my enthusiasm very quickly waned, thanks to Card's out and out bigotry.

    This has made me wonder, though, how the rest of you feel about boycotting material because of the people involved, even if the product has nothing to do with why you're upset. I know that I pretty much avoid any movie that Tom Cruise or Mel Gibson is in these days, mainly because of their stances in their personal lives. Do any of you think that doing so is logical or justified? Are there any people you avoid consuming media from because of their personal views? Do you think that this actually works?

    Out of genuine curiosity, do you also avoid anything Cruise has been involved with behind the scenes, in a producer/money capacity?

    Grislo on
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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Grislo wrote: »
    So, as some of you may or may not know, Microsoft is releasing their highly anticipated Arcade title Shadow Complex this week. I was initially interested in the game, as it looked like a well done 2D exploratory platformer in the vein of Super Metroid and other similar games. Then I found out that the developers had worked with Orson Scott Card to create the backstory of the game world. Needless to say, my enthusiasm very quickly waned, thanks to Card's out and out bigotry.

    This has made me wonder, though, how the rest of you feel about boycotting material because of the people involved, even if the product has nothing to do with why you're upset. I know that I pretty much avoid any movie that Tom Cruise or Mel Gibson is in these days, mainly because of their stances in their personal lives. Do any of you think that doing so is logical or justified? Are there any people you avoid consuming media from because of their personal views? Do you think that this actually works?

    Out of genuine curiosity, do you also avoid anything Cruise has been involved with behind the scenes, in a producer/money capacity?

    I try to. I really think he's a pretty odious individual.

    AngelHedgie on
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  • ArkadyArkady Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    So, as some of you may or may not know, Microsoft is releasing their highly anticipated Arcade title Shadow Complex this week. I was initially interested in the game, as it looked like a well done 2D exploratory platformer in the vein of Super Metroid and other similar games. Then I found out that the developers had worked with Orson Scott Card to create the backstory of the game world. Needless to say, my enthusiasm very quickly waned, thanks to Card's out and out bigotry.

    This has made me wonder, though, how the rest of you feel about boycotting material because of the people involved, even if the product has nothing to do with why you're upset. I know that I pretty much avoid any movie that Tom Cruise or Mel Gibson is in these days, mainly because of their stances in their personal lives. Do any of you think that doing so is logical or justified? Are there any people you avoid consuming media from because of their personal views? Do you think that this actually works?

    I do this with chick-fil-a actually. I won't eat there because of general mormon antics, even though it has nothing to do with chicken.
    Also, Wendy's is better.

    Arkady on
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  • King RiptorKing Riptor Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Arkady wrote: »
    So, as some of you may or may not know, Microsoft is releasing their highly anticipated Arcade title Shadow Complex this week. I was initially interested in the game, as it looked like a well done 2D exploratory platformer in the vein of Super Metroid and other similar games. Then I found out that the developers had worked with Orson Scott Card to create the backstory of the game world. Needless to say, my enthusiasm very quickly waned, thanks to Card's out and out bigotry.

    This has made me wonder, though, how the rest of you feel about boycotting material because of the people involved, even if the product has nothing to do with why you're upset. I know that I pretty much avoid any movie that Tom Cruise or Mel Gibson is in these days, mainly because of their stances in their personal lives. Do any of you think that doing so is logical or justified? Are there any people you avoid consuming media from because of their personal views? Do you think that this actually works?

    I do this with chick-fil-a actually. I won't eat there because of general mormon antics, even though it has nothing to do with chicken.
    Also, Wendy's is better.

    Frankly any restaurant that puts pickles on chicken is committing a heinous culinary crime. I'd boycott them just for that.

    King Riptor on
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  • Grendel72Grendel72 Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    To me it's not so much "boycotting" as not wanting my money to wind up in the pockets of genuinely bad people. There are a very few who reach that status with me- Victor Salva, Roman Polanski... Card goes on that list as well.
    Even more than the fact I don't want my money going in their pockets is the fact that it's just about impossible to simply ignore what these people are when viewing or reading their work. Maybe Ender's Game is a great novel (I loved it as a teenager, but I loved a lot of truly crappy stuff then), but reading it in light of Card's idiotic ranting it's impossible to ignore all the little boys wrestling in the nude and committing genocide on "buggers".

    Grendel72 on
  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Man... making some disparaging remarks about homosexuals because of your religious beliefs is kind of different from engaging in sexual activities with minors.

    DarkPrimus on
  • CangoFettCangoFett Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Arkady wrote: »
    So, as some of you may or may not know, Microsoft is releasing their highly anticipated Arcade title Shadow Complex this week. I was initially interested in the game, as it looked like a well done 2D exploratory platformer in the vein of Super Metroid and other similar games. Then I found out that the developers had worked with Orson Scott Card to create the backstory of the game world. Needless to say, my enthusiasm very quickly waned, thanks to Card's out and out bigotry.

    This has made me wonder, though, how the rest of you feel about boycotting material because of the people involved, even if the product has nothing to do with why you're upset. I know that I pretty much avoid any movie that Tom Cruise or Mel Gibson is in these days, mainly because of their stances in their personal lives. Do any of you think that doing so is logical or justified? Are there any people you avoid consuming media from because of their personal views? Do you think that this actually works?

    I do this with chick-fil-a actually. I won't eat there because of general mormon antics, even though it has nothing to do with chicken.
    Also, Wendy's is better.

    Wait, what mormon antics?

    The dude who owns chick-fil-A is a baptist. And the only antics i've seen are like, a sign on the back wall that says their mission statement, and begings with 'honoring God.' That and they have sunday off. Its not like they only serve people who bring their bibles or something.

    CangoFett on
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Grendel72 wrote: »
    To me it's not so much "boycotting" as not wanting my money to wind up in the pockets of genuinely bad people. There are a very few who reach that status with me- Victor Salva, Roman Polanski... Card goes on that list as well.
    Even more than the fact I don't want my money going in their pockets is the fact that it's just about impossible to simply ignore what these people are when viewing or reading their work. Maybe Ender's Game is a great novel (I loved it as a teenager, but I loved a lot of truly crappy stuff then), but reading it in light of Card's idiotic ranting it's impossible to ignore all the little boys wrestling in the nude and committing genocide on "buggers".

    This is pretty much more or less where I stand. I prefer my money not wind up in the hands of people I thank are bad.

    AngelHedgie on
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  • Grendel72Grendel72 Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Man... making some disparaging remarks about homosexuals because of your religious beliefs is kind of different from engaging in sexual activities with minors.
    And talking about violent overthrow of the government if gay people are given equal marriage rights is worse than "disparaging remarks."
    Beyond which, if you've read Card's books (as I did when I was younger) you have to have some niggling thoughts in the back of your mind about him and kids: Was it the third Alvin Maker book that was all about some "evil temptress child" accusing Alvin of molesting her, the naked little boy wrestling in Ender's Game... though this is probably not the place to talk about that, and I don't mean anything as an accusation. It just makes it hard to enjoy his work.

    Grendel72 on
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    CangoFett wrote: »
    Arkady wrote: »
    So, as some of you may or may not know, Microsoft is releasing their highly anticipated Arcade title Shadow Complex this week. I was initially interested in the game, as it looked like a well done 2D exploratory platformer in the vein of Super Metroid and other similar games. Then I found out that the developers had worked with Orson Scott Card to create the backstory of the game world. Needless to say, my enthusiasm very quickly waned, thanks to Card's out and out bigotry.

    This has made me wonder, though, how the rest of you feel about boycotting material because of the people involved, even if the product has nothing to do with why you're upset. I know that I pretty much avoid any movie that Tom Cruise or Mel Gibson is in these days, mainly because of their stances in their personal lives. Do any of you think that doing so is logical or justified? Are there any people you avoid consuming media from because of their personal views? Do you think that this actually works?

    I do this with chick-fil-a actually. I won't eat there because of general mormon antics, even though it has nothing to do with chicken.
    Also, Wendy's is better.

    Wait, what mormon antics?

    The dude who owns chick-fil-A is a baptist. And the only antics i've seen are like, a sign on the back wall that says their mission statement, and begings with 'honoring God.' That and they have sunday off. Its not like they only serve people who bring their bibles or something.

    No, but the owner has funded some odious things (I believe he was backing Prop. 8, for one.)

    AngelHedgie on
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  • MikeManMikeMan Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Supporting someone's creative output is a completely different thing entirely from supporting their views, opinions and convictions.

    not enough lime in the fucking world

    if i didn't listen to / purchase / consume products made by / created by / written by douchebags, I'd be a sad, lonely, hungry man.

    MikeMan on
  • PicardathonPicardathon Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Grendel72 wrote: »
    To me it's not so much "boycotting" as not wanting my money to wind up in the pockets of genuinely bad people. There are a very few who reach that status with me- Victor Salva, Roman Polanski... Card goes on that list as well.
    Even more than the fact I don't want my money going in their pockets is the fact that it's just about impossible to simply ignore what these people are when viewing or reading their work. Maybe Ender's Game is a great novel (I loved it as a teenager, but I loved a lot of truly crappy stuff then), but reading it in light of Card's idiotic ranting it's impossible to ignore all the little boys wrestling in the nude and committing genocide on "buggers".

    This is pretty much more or less where I stand. I prefer my money not wind up in the hands of people I thank are bad.

    Congratulations, you've found an impossible task, unless you can keep tabs on exactly who is supporting what at all times for the hundreds of products you consume every single day. Good luck.

    Picardathon on
  • DarkWarriorDarkWarrior __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2009
    If you're this sensitive over someone you don't know and their stance, that is their right to have, on other races, companies, countries, the weather, etc. then you have bigger problems than worrying about your unnoticable impact on a game that isn't out to keep down minorities.

    DarkWarrior on
  • SyphonBlueSyphonBlue The studying beaver That beaver sure loves studying!Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Yeah I'm not not buying an awesome game cause a racist once wrote a story that tangentially inspired the backstory of it.

    SyphonBlue on
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  • His CorkinessHis Corkiness Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    ronya wrote: »
    You also need to get your message to the company, otherwise your lost sale just gets lost in the noise. Lost sales due to a boycott over a single author involved in a single aspect of game development would be completely overwhelmed by those lost to, say, piracy. or DRM boycotts.

    Put it this way: you'll have a far greater impact penning a letter to the developers involved, or contacting a rights group to ask them to criticise Microsoft and/or Chair Entertainment and/or Epic games. At least your message will be heard! A boycott is only effective once you organise it to the point where it demonstrably affects a sizable percentage of sales.
    This. Marketers aren't clairvoyants, and there are a lot of reasons they'd attribute a drop in sales to before the fact that someone associated with the game is a bigot and some people don't like that. This fact makes me dubious of the efficacy of anything but large-scale boycotts. Public and media outrage seem to get the job done on a much more consistent basis as the message is clear.

    His Corkiness on
  • JandaruJandaru New ZealandRegistered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Being a fan of Comic books I tend to boycott a lot of books simply because of whose involved.

    Pat Lee for example still gets work despite literally screwing over every employee of dreamwave and hiding in china for like 3 years.

    So until he pays his employees I am glad to not pay a red cent for his work. I have sent marvel,DC,and Wizard letters( like many others) flat out telling them I will not purchase a book he works on.

    He still gets work because apparently being a corporate screw up wasn't a popular crime yet.
    I could understand it if he produced amazing art, but he's kind of terrible at that as well (provided that the stuff I've seen with his name on it was even actually drawn by him - at least back in the Dreamwave days, a lot of it was just Pat Lee signing his name to ghost artists' work).

    Jandaru on
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  • JandaruJandaru New ZealandRegistered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Also - this game looks awesome, but I can't buy it because I don't have an Xbox. How does that lost sale look any different to the higher-ups than someone not buying it because they're boycotting one guy loosely involved in the game's production?

    If you were boycotting Joss Whedon (say you thought that he rapes his wife or somthing), would that inlcude the X-Men movie? I hear a couple of lines he wrote actually made it into the finished movie.

    Jandaru on
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  • PitscarPitscar Registered User new member
    edited August 2009
    Thanks for opening my eyes - I never knew Orson Scott Card was a bigot. I was all prepared to be offended, but then I realized.... Ender's Game is still an amazing book. Xenocide is still great. And I am having a really hard drawing any sort of connection between homophobia and little pequininos who die and sprout leaves. As much as I try.

    The only way I would boycott something based on someone's involvement would be if it were to make a direct impact on the product. Like if Tom Cruise insisted on jumping on couches and screaming about his love in every movie, I would stop watching Tom Cruise. If Orson Scott Card were to insist that all bad guys were pink and they died in rainbow explosions, I'd probably avoid it too.

    Pitscar on
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  • QinguQingu Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    I don't think it's feasible to absolutely avoid paying money to bigots and morons and other unsavory folks. The economy is a vast interconnected entity, and inevitably someone like that is going to profit from a decision you make.

    But that said, I certainly think it's important to understand our consumer behavior as moral choices. "You vote with your dollar" is a truism, but it's important to internalize what this means. Intelligent—and moral—consumer behavior acts as a selective mechanism for the evolution of human culture. We shouldn't marginalize this responsibility or "give up" because it's impossible to act responsibly in some pure, ideal sense. We should do what we can.

    I don't want my money being funneled into Focus on the Family, so I will never eat at Chik-Fil-E. I don't want my money going into Orson Scott Card's coffers so he can promulgate a worldview where red-state vigilantes are "heroes" for executing treasonous blue-state people, so I will not buy this game.

    Qingu on
  • gigEsmallsgigEsmalls __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2009
    It's really not the views of those in media that upset me but the distraction that it causes. I posted this in the District 9 thread that the less drama an actor has in their life the better the suspension of disbelief. An actor's personality can overpower their character and then ruins it for me.

    gigEsmalls on
  • ueanuean Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    gigEsmalls wrote: »
    It's really not the views of those in media that upset me but the distraction that it causes. I posted this in the District 9 thread that the less drama an actor has in their life the better the suspension of disbelief. An actor's personality can overpower their character and then ruins it for me.

    I understand that, but it can go both ways. Tom Cruise is still a good actor, and seeing him onscreen completely blowing his insanity out of the water with a solid performance fascinates me and makes me want to see moar.

    Of course, you still have to be a good actor. If Nicholas Cage ever has something dramatic happen in his life the entire theater is going to be laughing as he who, what, where's his way through

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  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    I don't think nick cage even acts, really. They probably just have his wife pretend to leave him right before every dramatic scene.

    Anyway, I'm torn on the topic of personal boycotting. On the one hand it's easy enough to do in many situations and even arguably has tangible impact, but when you're trying to punish views that aren't (I assume) even expressed in the product, it starts to get farther and farther away from me caring about it.

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
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    it was the smallest on the list but
    Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
  • RitchmeisterRitchmeister Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    There's a lot of batshit insanity in this thread. Have you people not seen The Rock?

    Cunts.

    Ritchmeister on
  • LawndartLawndart Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    To be honest, once I found out that Shadow Complex was not only based on an Orson Scott Card novel, but based on his ham-fisted "Wouldn't it be awesome if there was a civil war in America so the 'heartland' folks could take over from all those evil liberal 'smartland' folks?" polemic-as-novel, my interest level waned to pretty much zero.

    Although the reviews I've read say that the political agenda that was hammer-to-the-testicles subtle in the book is non-existent or at best incoherent in the game I might pick it up eventually.

    Lawndart on
  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    As long as you can play as, or at least side with, the evil liberals I'll probably play it. I knew a guy who bought that christian RTS that came out a while back and it was really fun to hop online and play as the athiest/satanist faction

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    NREqxl5.jpg
    it was the smallest on the list but
    Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
  • tsmvengytsmvengy Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Pitscar wrote: »
    Thanks for opening my eyes - I never knew Orson Scott Card was a bigot. I was all prepared to be offended, but then I realized.... Ender's Game is still an amazing book. Xenocide is still great. And I am having a really hard drawing any sort of connection between homophobia and little pequininos who die and sprout leaves. As much as I try.

    The only way I would boycott something based on someone's involvement would be if it were to make a direct impact on the product. Like if Tom Cruise insisted on jumping on couches and screaming about his love in every movie, I would stop watching Tom Cruise. If Orson Scott Card were to insist that all bad guys were pink and they died in rainbow explosions, I'd probably avoid it too.

    The difference is some people don't like the idea of making people with bigoted or hateful ideas richer. There doesn't have to be a direct connection between their beliefs and the work.

    tsmvengy on
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  • darthmixdarthmix Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    I strongly disagree with virtually everything Card says these days on the subject of politics, and a lot of it actually pisses me off, but I don't see how supporting this game actually empowers the platform he happens to espouse. I also think people I disagree with ought to be able to write science fiction stories and I don't have any problem if they find success in that.

    If I'm boycotting something it'll be because supporting it would actually promote and empower an agenda I disagree with. But I don't think we should use boycotts as a means to preclude people we disagree with from living their lives, especially when they're engaged in some creative activity that is unrelated to our dispute with them.

    darthmix on
  • tsmvengytsmvengy Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Why shouldn't I deny someone my money because they hold beliefs that I find abhorrent?

    I mean, you can say that a project is "unrelated" because it doesn't say "fags should die" or "minorities are mud people" but a percentage of every dollar you spend on it is going into their pocket.

    I do think it's unrealistic to try to live your life avoiding anything remotely related to someone who holds beliefs you don't like. But I don't like the "people should be allowed to believe whatever they want to without consequences" argument when it comes to hatred.

    tsmvengy on
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  • ronyaronya Arrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Well, if you want to deny someone money for his/her abhorrent beliefs, you do also need to recognise that the way to do so is through an organized boycott, and anything less than that will have an appropriately negligible effect. To borrow a phrase, you'll know, and god'll know, but nobody else will.

    ronya on
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