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Expanding Comic Book Audiences

24

Posts

  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2009
    No you shut the fuck up dad

    Me Too! on
  • The Lovely BastardThe Lovely Bastard Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    wiggin go back to jail

    The Lovely Bastard on
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  • FaynorFaynor Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    How many points does it take to get banned? Isn't it 5?

    Turn back, Wiggan! Turn back!

    Faynor on
    do you wanna see me eat a hotdog
  • ScoobaShagScoobaShag Registered User
    edited August 2009
    So anyway.....

    @ziggymon
    I think eventually the epic events will probably grow old and they'll switch to something else. All these things go in cycles. For instance, let's say that the next big trend in comics is to do something more in line with All-Star Superman where you get a production team together to make a short series that uses the characters but they exist in a completely different continuity that's self-contained. It'll probably work out for a while but then even that trend could grow old and audiences might once again clamor for a tightly constructed continuity universe between everyone within said publishing world. The question is really if the publishers are smart enough to respond fast enough when that audience desire changes.

    @emnmnme
    Yeah, I actually saw a manga styled spinoff for wolverine today at books-a-million. I took a peak at it just because I was curious as to how they were going to take on the subject. But it was "meh." It seems like marvel in particular is trying everything they can to get new audiences the more I look around, and didn't really occur to me but they do actually seem to be trying, even if their efforts are ill-informed sometimes. I'll give them props for that.

    ScoobaShag on
  • GodfatherGodfather Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Ziggymon wrote: »
    When I got first into comics I found quite a few of the industry aspects quite off putting. the biggest of these were the big Summer crossover events that span over every comic book to try and get the readers to buy into everything to get the full story. Or the constant delays to many books at the time can and has made a lot of people drop a series who were into comics let alone what new audiences would think to do.

    Bingo.


    This is the number one reason why kids are turned off by this. It's just too much work to keep up with, and expecting a younger audience to read multiple series to get the entire picture is just a ridiculous standard to expect.


    Before I continue, i'd like to say that you should all take what I say with a grain of salt, because the last thing I would want to do around here is start an unnecessary flame smackdown.
    I still say that there should be a big push for multiple, original mainstream series that, quite frankly, have nothing to do with one another, will never cross over into each other, and doesn't dabble into the overall Marvel/DC-verse. What happens in that series happens, plain and simple; it lives or dies by the creator in charge, and doesn't get passed around to different writers like currency. I understand that a team of writers can crank out some phenomenal material, but at the same time different opinions about said series can cause other writers to cancel out each other. In short, too many cooks can spoil the broth.


    I'm trying to choose my words carefully here because one wrong slip up will paint me as a western comic basher, but these facts are what's made eastern comics so successful, both in Asia and North America.


    It's a pretty basic concept, I just have no idea why either company will try since it's so obvious. Are crossovers really that necessary? I'm more fond of the idea of a crossover being a fun, one-shot idea, not an industry standard.

    That's what makes them so exciting; to see these characters that should never cross paths fighting together for a common cause. When you do this every year, for thirty years and going, it's going to lose it's magic.

    I know that these type of things are super popular around the American comic community. But the casuals are put off by it a lot of the time (at least the dozens of people I've talked to about it), and would much rather have a self-contained, easy-to-enter story that's readily available. A lot of independent publishers actually do this, but they are outright crushed by the usual heavyweights because there's an audience that just won't give in to trying something that isn't a safe bet. Yet overseas this type of format is what makes or breaks a series in.

    It's what made series like One Piece the juggernaut it is today, and despite it's long run it's still selling faster than chocolate crack. At one point one of the of the Volumes sold higher than the latest Harry Potter book!


    This isn't an opinion that's probably going to be well-received with many of you, but some times you gotta crack a few eggs to get some results, and we are laying all options on the table here, so...

    Godfather on
  • SageinaRageSageinaRage Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Yeah, if there's one thing that's gradually killed the comics industry, I believe that it's crossovers and 'events'.

    It's penny wise and pound foolish, as it's abundantly clear to anyone with half a brain that it's not done to make the stories better, but to sucker the reader into spending more money. Doubling the amount of paper you shovel out in a summer doesn't mean that the stories are twice as good, and in fact it's usually the opposite.

    The shared universe is a fun idea for people who really want to get into it, but the large majority of people don't. If the comics industry in america wants to grow, that's the one thing I think they really need to learn from manga.

    SageinaRage on
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  • emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Yeah, if there's one thing that's gradually killed the comics industry, I believe that it's crossovers and 'events'.

    It's penny wise and pound foolish, as it's abundantly clear to anyone with half a brain that it's not done to make the stories better, but to sucker the reader into spending more money. Doubling the amount of paper you shovel out in a summer doesn't mean that the stories are twice as good, and in fact it's usually the opposite.

    The shared universe is a fun idea for people who really want to get into it, but the large majority of people don't. If the comics industry in america wants to grow, that's the one thing I think they really need to learn from manga.

    Didn't you just contradict yourself there? Manga is popular because it has stories from any genre and is churned out in bulk biweekly. You can buy 500 pages of manga for $5.

    Superman's death event sold lots of paper, too.

    emnmnme on
  • GodfatherGodfather Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Maybe he meant "paper" as in monetary profit?

    Godfather on
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited August 2009
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Yeah, if there's one thing that's gradually killed the comics industry, I believe that it's crossovers and 'events'.

    It's penny wise and pound foolish, as it's abundantly clear to anyone with half a brain that it's not done to make the stories better, but to sucker the reader into spending more money. Doubling the amount of paper you shovel out in a summer doesn't mean that the stories are twice as good, and in fact it's usually the opposite.

    The shared universe is a fun idea for people who really want to get into it, but the large majority of people don't. If the comics industry in america wants to grow, that's the one thing I think they really need to learn from manga.

    Didn't you just contradict yourself there? Manga is popular because it has stories from any genre and is churned out in bulk biweekly. You can buy 500 pages of manga for $5.

    Superman's death event sold lots of paper, too.
    I think he means creating more tie ins for tie ins' sake, rather than simply getting more story, is a turn off for a lot of people.

    Fencingsax on
  • MunchMunch Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    I think people drastically overstate the whole crossover and continuity problem. With TPBs being organized and sold the way they are now, it's extremely easy to pick up a volume of Iron Man, Secret Invasion, Civil War, Captain America, Firestorm, or whatever the fuck and get one solid chunk of story. People aren't retarded. If you give them the main Civil War TPB and then Civil War: Iron Man, they'll fit any conflicting bits together. Likewise, if something is perfectly explained and laid out down to the last bit of minutiae, they'll gloss over it.

    The problem is entirely in getting books into people's hands, and then convincing them to actually read the fucking things, because the sad truth is, many people would rather eat a hot coal than read anything resembling a book. At my former job, a library of all places, I had several discussions with people who loved A History of Violence, Road to Perdition, Watchmen, 300, and Sin City, and when I'd mention that they should read the comics those films were based on, they'd kind of hem and haw about how they don't much like reading, and would rather just watch the movies.

    Any time I've suckered one of my friends or family into reading a comic, they've most often come back to me asking for more volumes of the same series, or wondering what they should read next. I really believe it comes down to getting cheap digital comics out to people who wouldn't go into a comic store, and then actually convincing them to read them. Supermarket distribution is a dead end with issues anywhere from three to four dollars, as no parent is going to buy that for their kid when they can just spend a few dollars more and buy a movie or action figure.

    And honestly? I disregard any and all arguments regarding manga out of hand because, in my experience working at the previously mentioned library, 99% of kids reading manga aren't interested in reading great stories or seeing fantastic art. They don't enjoy the format or self-contained nature, as I saw dozens of great OEL digest comics, done in manga styles even, sit on the shelves untouched. Likewise, I saw manga books that had a more realistic style ala Samurai Executioner or Lone Wolf and Cub gather dust.

    No, 99% of the kids I saw checking out manga were just Japanese culture fetishist dorks who'd drop kawaii into English sentences, and generally act like little spazzes. The other 1% just really liked looking at cartoon tits.

    Munch on
  • Bloods EndBloods End Blade of Tyshalle Punch dimensionRegistered User regular
    edited August 2009
    To be fair, who doesn't love cartoon tits.

    Bloods End on
  • SageinaRageSageinaRage Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Yeah, if there's one thing that's gradually killed the comics industry, I believe that it's crossovers and 'events'.

    It's penny wise and pound foolish, as it's abundantly clear to anyone with half a brain that it's not done to make the stories better, but to sucker the reader into spending more money. Doubling the amount of paper you shovel out in a summer doesn't mean that the stories are twice as good, and in fact it's usually the opposite.

    The shared universe is a fun idea for people who really want to get into it, but the large majority of people don't. If the comics industry in america wants to grow, that's the one thing I think they really need to learn from manga.

    Didn't you just contradict yourself there? Manga is popular because it has stories from any genre and is churned out in bulk biweekly. You can buy 500 pages of manga for $5.

    Superman's death event sold lots of paper, too.

    I only contradicted myself if you only read one single line out of a paragraph.
    I think people drastically overstate the whole crossover and continuity problem. With TPBs being organized and sold the way they are now, it's extremely easy to pick up a volume of Iron Man, Secret Invasion, Civil War, Captain America, Firestorm, or whatever the fuck and get one solid chunk of story. People aren't retarded. If you give them the main Civil War TPB and then Civil War: Iron Man, they'll fit any conflicting bits together. Likewise, if something is perfectly explained and laid out down to the last bit of minutiae, they'll gloss over it.

    The problem is entirely in getting books into people's hands, and then convincing them to actually read the fucking things, because the sad truth is, many people would rather eat a hot coal than read anything resembling a book. At my former job, a library of all places, I had several discussions with people who loved A History of Violence, Road to Perdition, Watchmen, 300, and Sin City, and when I'd mention that they should read the comics those films were based on, they'd kind of hem and haw about how they don't much like reading, and would rather just watch the movies.

    Any time I've suckered one of my friends or family into reading a comic, they've most often come back to me asking for more volumes of the same series, or wondering what they should read next. I really believe it comes down to getting cheap digital comics out to people who wouldn't go into a comic store, and then actually convincing them to read them. Supermarket distribution is a dead end with issues anywhere from three to four dollars, as no parent is going to buy that for their kid when they can just spend a few dollars more and buy a movie or action figure.

    And honestly? I disregard any and all arguments regarding manga out of hand because, in my experience working at the previously mentioned library, 99% of kids reading manga aren't interested in reading great stories or seeing fantastic art. They don't enjoy the format or self-contained nature, as I saw dozens of great OEL digest comics, done in manga styles even, sit on the shelves untouched. Likewise, I saw manga books that had a more realistic style ala Samurai Executioner or Lone Wolf and Cub gather dust.

    No, 99% of the kids I saw checking out manga were just Japanese culture fetishist dorks who'd drop kawaii into English sentences, and generally act like little spazzes. The other 1% just really liked looking at cartoon tits.

    The fact that there are people who don't want to read is an entirely separate problem. I have several friends who like reading comics, but very few of them buy actual monthly 'comics'. Most of them buy trades, and mostly of standalone series. The only one who does buy monthlies buys pretty much ultimate spider-man and nothing else.

    Yeah, a lot of people are willing to read stories partway through with someone there to guide them. But having that guide there for them is a critical part of that, and without you there to suggest things for them, their chances of wading through it themselves is 0%.

    And I'm glad that you're disregarding arguments about manga, which are read in japan by people ages 10-60, due to some asshole kids at your library. Way to be open minded, sport.

    SageinaRage on
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  • JyrenBJyrenB Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Saying "it works to do this in Japan we should do that here" doesn't really work, though, as the markets are entirely different. Its not just the Marvel and DC aspect of it either, but the readers that make things a great deal harder to transfer ideas and strategies from one to another.

    The reason manga is read by so many people in Japan is not because they don't have crossovers or tie-ins or events or any of the things like that. Its a cultural difference. Most of the people that read manga here in America don't read them for the reasons that people in Japan do. Munch isn't far off the mark at all, even if it doesn't paint a pretty picture.

    And besides, I'm not sure I believe the anecdotal evidence of events and tie-ins and crossovers pushing people away from comics when sales figures usually grow during those events. Now, obviously, there are a number of reasons for that to happen, and you can't necessarily pin down it on more people suddenly deciding to read comics over current readers being completionists with an event...but really, if you don't use sales to show if something is doing better or not in comics, all you HAVE is anecdotal evidence and that's not much to go on.

    JyrenB on
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    XBL: JyrenB ; Steam: Jyren ; Twitter
  • MunchMunch Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    On the subject of TPBs and monthlies, I should mention that I feel the future of print comics is entirely in TPBs, as their sales continue to grow year after year. I think that monthly comics should be cheap and disposable, as with a download, and used to promote the eventual TPB. I'm a comic fan, and even I hate paying four bucks a month for a flimsy, ad-filled pamphlet that has to be stored in a cardboard box.

    As for the Japanese comic market? Well, I don't live in Japan. Perhaps if I lived in a country that's been shown to have a substantial population of repressed, nerdy, shut-ins, the comic market would be better!

    Maybe we should discuss the Euro comic market? Or perhaps why poutine and hockey is so damn popular in Canada, but just can't seem to get a foothold here in the States?

    Or maybe we can acknowledge that it's completely. Fucking. Irrelevant.

    Whichever, champ.

    Munch on
  • TexiKenTexiKen please please I don't have any time for any gossip now Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Events can work both ways. I would say look at DC during and after Infinite Crisis to see what events do to books on a positive note. They planned One Year Later to be easy for new readers to jump in. And the sales showed that. They beat Marvel for 2 or 3 months in sales, which hasn't happened in a good long time.

    Now having said that, the stories weren't that good for some of the books (Flash) and the fucking delays killed , Superman, Action Comics and Wonder Woman, and Morrison's Batman debut had less of an impact when you had a fill-in team 5 issues into the run. DC fumbled big time and people were driven away because they then went back to being heavier in continuity than they should have, and then we had Amazons Attack and Countdown.

    TexiKen on
  • SageinaRageSageinaRage Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Jesus christ, the manga hate is so raging in here it's causing people to completely miss the point of what I was saying! Go drink a beer, calm down, and come back and read it again. I have one, ONE thing that I said we should take from manga, one which is already done in america, just not as much as it should be. Think of Watchmen, Sandman, Fables, Scalped, Y - these are the kinds of things I'm talking about.

    And yeah, I know that sales jump during events. Those jumps are from existing comics fans buying the tie-ins, and series' they don't normally. They're not expanding the market at all. And anecdotes are really all we have to go on here, because there are no sales figures for people NOT BUYING COMICS.

    Munch, I agree completely that the future of comics in in TPB's, I think if we're going to continue with the monthly comic market, it needs to be much more disposable and cheaper, like our regular newspaper comics.

    SageinaRage on
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  • The Lovely BastardThe Lovely Bastard Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    munch quit being snippy and get back to work on sentry duty

    The Lovely Bastard on
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  • TexiKenTexiKen please please I don't have any time for any gossip now Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    And yeah, I know that sales jump during events. Those jumps are from existing comics fans buying the tie-ins, and series' they don't normally. They're not expanding the market at all. And anecdotes are really all we have to go on here, because there are no sales figures for people NOT BUYING COMICS.

    You need to start somewhere, and the best way to expand comics is to get those people who only buy one type of comic to try other avenues. Marvel people should try DC, vice versa, and those who stick to Vertigo and independent books should try stuff from the big 2. More eyes -> more word of mouth -> more people to tell others who don't read these books to try them out.

    Marvel had that Obama Spider-Man issues, and instead of tailoring the book around a simple issue to catch on people who would flock to the book for that and have nothing but subscription service pages or pages for Marvel Download Content, they have an issue where Peter is out of costume hanging out with Betty Brant, someone most people wouldn't know who she is even if she was in the movies.

    TexiKen on
  • MunchMunch Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    munch quit being snippy and get back to work on sentry duty

    My anger sustains me TLB, you know that.

    Speaking of Sentry Duty, I got hung up a bit while working on it, but I've got the script mostly written now, and I'll finish the rest of it tonight while I'm at work. Then I'll just need to transcribe it from my doodle-filled, scratchy notebook pages.

    Munch on
  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2009
    TexiKen wrote: »
    And yeah, I know that sales jump during events. Those jumps are from existing comics fans buying the tie-ins, and series' they don't normally. They're not expanding the market at all. And anecdotes are really all we have to go on here, because there are no sales figures for people NOT BUYING COMICS.

    You need to start somewhere, and the best way to expand comics is to get those people who only buy one type of comic to try other avenues. Marvel people should try DC, vice versa, and those who stick to Vertigo and independent books should try stuff from the big 2. More eyes -> more word of mouth -> more people to tell others who don't read these books to try them out.

    Marvel had that Obama Spider-Man issues, and instead of tailoring the book around a simple issue to catch on people who would flock to the book for that and have nothing but subscription service pages or pages for Marvel Download Content, they have an issue where Peter is out of costume hanging out with Betty Brant, someone most people wouldn't know who she is even if she was in the movies.

    She is in the movies

    She's Jonah's secretary still

    Me Too! on
  • TexiKenTexiKen please please I don't have any time for any gossip now Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Right, that's why I said "even if she was in the movies." I can see how that can read as not being in the movies. Maybe I should have said she was Elizabeth Banks :winky:

    TexiKen on
  • The Lovely BastardThe Lovely Bastard Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Munch wrote: »
    munch quit being snippy and get back to work on sentry duty

    My anger sustains me TLB, you know that.

    Speaking of Sentry Duty, I got hung up a bit while working on it, but I've got the script mostly written now, and I'll finish the rest of it tonight while I'm at work. Then I'll just need to transcribe it from my doodle-filled, scratchy notebook pages.

    okay munch

    I expect good things

    or you're fired

    The Lovely Bastard on
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  • ScoobaShagScoobaShag Registered User
    edited August 2009
    Well, I'm pleased as a pig in mud with how this discussion is going.

    Okay, yes TPB's and graphic novels are going to be the next thing, and it's generally agreed upon that anything less should be as dispensable as comics were in the 1900's. Which, ironically enough, is part of how comics are treated in japan. Yes, everybody over there has a special cultural respect for the medium that we don't have over here, BUT at the same time people in japan are very willing to leave their bi-weekly shounen jump laying on the train for the next schmuck to pick up and follow up on the continuing humbuggery of Naruto or Luffy or whoever the fuck.

    The american markets are still reeling from the fallout of the nineties, during the ridiculous comics speculation period and most people would not have the same willingness to let go of there monthly Spiderman. It's funny but, perhaps one of the best ways to expand comics is to cheapen them. They are a pulp format! There will always be crappy stories, that can't be helped, and where there are crappy stories there will be authors who rise to the occasion and make something worthwhile, that's not really the issue.

    The issue really is changing how these things are distributed. Make them cheap, make them widely available, and make a profit from ads, merchandise, and whatever else you can. That's how television and radio works, and it would help the comics industry (probably print in general) if they thought of something in that same line.

    ScoobaShag on
  • GodfatherGodfather Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Munch wrote: »
    I think people drastically overstate the whole crossover and continuity problem. With TPBs being organized and sold the way they are now, it's extremely easy to pick up a volume of Iron Man, Secret Invasion, Civil War, Captain America, Firestorm, or whatever the fuck and get one solid chunk of story. People aren't retarded. If you give them the main Civil War TPB and then Civil War: Iron Man, they'll fit any conflicting bits together. Likewise, if something is perfectly explained and laid out down to the last bit of minutiae, they'll gloss over it.

    I'm going to have to disagree here, both from personal experience and from talking to a lot of different people about this very subject.

    Every time i've brought this up, whether with friends at school, family at home, collegues at work or just random strangers in the bus, it's always the same thing; we just have no idea what the hell is going on.

    If you're completely cold turkey to the comic book scene (you know, the target audience that this thread is implying), jumping into those clusterfuck crossover events is a fever-dream nightmare. It's just a bunch of muscular men in tights fighting over God knows what, with the same armageddon-level threats as the rest of them. It doesn't help that the writers will usually pull a lot of Deus Ex Machina and have some random superhero we never even knew existed will come along with just the right abilities and save the day.

    That's not fun, that irritating. That's great for the veterans, but that kind of stuff never flies with the casual crowd; in fact, it'lll usually drive them away.

    You wanna bring in a new audience, start them off at ground zero. Most casuals want to know about everything in that world before jumping into that stuff. Not just characters, but world elements, laws, and the overall mythos.
    And honestly? I disregard any and all arguments regarding manga out of hand because, in my experience working at the previously mentioned library, 99% of kids reading manga aren't interested in reading great stories or seeing fantastic art. They don't enjoy the format or self-contained nature, as I saw dozens of great OEL digest comics, done in manga styles even, sit on the shelves untouched. Likewise, I saw manga books that had a more realistic style ala Samurai Executioner or Lone Wolf and Cub gather dust.

    No, 99% of the kids I saw checking out manga were just Japanese culture fetishist dorks who'd drop kawaii into English sentences, and generally act like little spazzes. The other 1% just really liked looking at cartoon tits.[/

    This is a poor way of thinking.

    Have you actually stepped out into the real world? Most of the audience aren't like that at all.

    Sure you've got your obsessed weeaboos, but i've seen just as many glossy-eyed, foaming-at-the-mouth western comic fans. Both of these categories are die-hard readers, and are a shit standard to paint the general audience populice with.

    The majority of casual comic readers will go for manga because it's just easier to get into. You want to read (insert manga series)? Start at volume one. You know what you're getting into right from the start; everything from the characters to the World Building. If you don' like where it's heading, then stop reading.

    It's a very simple process.

    This has nothing to do with which industry is better. It's just simply easier to get into manga than it is into comics because of how readily-available everything is.

    EDIT: Cartoon tits? Really?

    Have you missed the spandex-clad women running around the Big Two? It's just as bad as what the easterners are doing.

    Godfather on
  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2009
    f you're completely cold turkey to the comic book scene (you know, the target audience that this thread is implying), jumping into those clusterfuck crossover events is a fever-dream nightmare. It's just a bunch of muscular men in tights fighting over God knows what, with the same armageddon-level threats as the rest of them. It doesn't help that the writers will usually pull a lot of Deus Ex Machina and have some random superhero we never even knew existed will come along with just the right abilities and save the day.

    Yeah but the 90s are over now chief

    Me Too! on
  • TexiKenTexiKen please please I don't have any time for any gossip now Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Godfather wrote: »
    It's just a bunch of muscular men in tights fighting over God knows what, with the same armageddon-level threats as the rest of them. It doesn't help that the writers will usually pull a lot of Deus Ex Machina and have some random superhero we never even knew existed will come along with just the right abilities and save the day.

    To be fair that's exactly what Shonen Manga and anime do all the time.

    TexiKen on
  • SageinaRageSageinaRage Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Me Too! wrote: »
    f you're completely cold turkey to the comic book scene (you know, the target audience that this thread is implying), jumping into those clusterfuck crossover events is a fever-dream nightmare. It's just a bunch of muscular men in tights fighting over God knows what, with the same armageddon-level threats as the rest of them. It doesn't help that the writers will usually pull a lot of Deus Ex Machina and have some random superhero we never even knew existed will come along with just the right abilities and save the day.

    Yeah but the 90s are over now chief

    The 80's are over too.

    But if you think there's a fundamental difference between Infinity Wars, Onslaught, and Secret Invasion, then I think you're just kidding yourself.

    SageinaRage on
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  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2009
    Me Too! wrote: »
    f you're completely cold turkey to the comic book scene (you know, the target audience that this thread is implying), jumping into those clusterfuck crossover events is a fever-dream nightmare. It's just a bunch of muscular men in tights fighting over God knows what, with the same armageddon-level threats as the rest of them. It doesn't help that the writers will usually pull a lot of Deus Ex Machina and have some random superhero we never even knew existed will come along with just the right abilities and save the day.

    Yeah but the 90s are over now chief

    The 80's are over too.

    But if you think there's a fundamental difference between Infinity Wars, Onslaught, and Secret Invasion, then I think you're just kidding yourself.

    Explain to me how anything in that quote applies to Secret Invasion

    Me Too! on
  • MunchMunch Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Godfather wrote: »
    If you're completely cold turkey to the comic book scene (you know, the target audience that this thread is implying), jumping into those clusterfuck crossover events is a fever-dream nightmare. It's just a bunch of muscular men in tights fighting over God knows what, with the same armageddon-level threats as the rest of them. It doesn't help that the writers will usually pull a lot of Deus Ex Machina and have some random superhero we never even knew existed will come along with just the right abilities and save the day.

    That's not fun, that irritating. That's great for the veterans, but that kind of stuff never flies with the casual crowd; in fact, it'lll usually drive them away.

    You wanna bring in a new audience, start them off at ground zero. Most casuals want to know about everything in that world before jumping into that stuff. Not just characters, but world elements, laws, and the overall mythos.

    I first started reading comics in elementary school during the nineties, stopped for several years, got into manga in my freshman year of high school (so I could see cartoon titties and megaviolence), stopped reading again, and then got back into the hobby when I was nineteen, when I picked up a few TPBs of various superhero titles. A few years later, I'm a hardcore comic nerd with a habit that would rival most cokeheads in pure expense.

    As I said, with TPBs each containing a whole story, which is part of a longer narrative, anyone can get into comics. The only reason they don't is because they're convinced it's impossible to catch up. Most TPBs even have convenient little numbers on the spine so people know which to read first! Craaaazy!
    Godfather wrote:
    Have you actually stepped out into the real world? Most of the audience aren't like that at all.

    Sure you've got your obsessed weeaboos, but i've seen just as many glossy-eyed, foaming-at-the-mouth western comic fans. Both of these categories are die-hard readers, and are a shit standard to paint the general audience populice with.

    The majority of casual comic readers will go for manga because it's just easier to get into. You want to read (insert manga series)? Start at volume one. You know what you're getting into right from the start; everything from the characters to the World Building. If you don' like where it's heading, then stop reading.

    It's a very simple process.

    This has nothing to do with which industry is better. It's just simply easier to get into manga than it is into comics because of how readily-available everything is.

    I'm actually posting this from my Beetle-Cave, a subterranean bunker buried five miles beneath the surface of the Earth, the walls papered with Blue Beetle pages and tears.

    I'm not trying to disparage manga readers. I assure you, I'm well aware that fans of American comics can be just as bothersome and obsessed. I'm simply pointing out that the markets for both formats really don't cross over. What works for manga will not work for American comics, and vice versa, because the readership is completely different, and all attempts to cross pollinate over the past few decades have met with failure. Time to move on and stop trying to apply the manga argument to American comics.

    Now, as for the ease of accessibility, I have to disagree. Say someone wants to try out Iron Man after seeing the movies. So they go to Amazon and type in Iron Man Vol. 1. Here's the first hit. Oh look, and down at the bottom is a list of further recommended reading! Voila, they now know all they need to know to get into Iron Man.

    Ditto any superhero book. This also applies to independent books, which I feel you're entirely discounting in your argument. If some chucklefuck can't figure out that Walking Dead Vol. 2 follows Walking Dead Vol. 1, they have bigger problems than trying to get into funnybooks. Ditto Powers, Criminal, Rex Mundi, Scalped, Fables, Casanova, or any number of fine independent books or creator-controlled books.

    Manga also has many barriers to entry, such as a cultural disconnect that often put me off while reading, the reversed page flow, and the fact that most of the stuff that is imported over here is fucking terrible, and is comprised of about fifty volumes.

    Munch on
  • emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    I wonder if the Smallville TV show was better written, Superman comic sales would go up. You'll net fans but are those fans interested in comic books? Probably no. That said, I wouldn't give a damn about Batman if it weren't for the Burton movies and the 90s Animated Series. Those two things were the sparks that started the cozy fire.

    emnmnme on
  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2009
    Powers and Criminal and Transmet should be required reading when you start on comics

    Me Too! on
  • MunchMunch Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Oh hey, are we arguing about content now too?

    Because let me point out the vast gulf of difference between the superhero that wears funny clothes and has special powers, and faces supernatural forces in great battles, and the manga hero that wears funny clothes and has special powers, and faces supernatural forces in great battles.

    It's very similar to the difference between the superhero protagonists in leather pervert suits with special powers, and Garth Ennis' protagonists in leather jackets with special powers.

    Munch on
  • TexiKenTexiKen please please I don't have any time for any gossip now Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    emnmnme wrote: »
    I wonder if the Smallville TV show was better written, Superman comic sales would go up. You'll net fans but are those fans interested in comic books? Probably no. That said, I wouldn't give a damn about Batman if it weren't for the Burton movies and the 90s Animated Series. Those two things were the sparks that started the cozy fire.

    When Smallville first came out I was still out of comics at the time, and I thought the first twenty minutes of the first show was awesome. It made me want to look into the books I was missing, like what was up with Superboy.

    And then they went into Kryptonite superpowered baddies, the first one controlling insects or something (I imagine this was Loeb's contribution to the series). And I gave up and watched something else and didn't get back into comics until a year later.

    TexiKen on
  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2009
    TexiKen wrote: »
    emnmnme wrote: »
    I wonder if the Smallville TV show was better written, Superman comic sales would go up. You'll net fans but are those fans interested in comic books? Probably no. That said, I wouldn't give a damn about Batman if it weren't for the Burton movies and the 90s Animated Series. Those two things were the sparks that started the cozy fire.

    When Smallville first came out I was still out of comics at the time, and I thought the first twenty minutes of the first show was awesome.

    And then they went into Kryptonite superpowered baddies, the first one controlling insects or something. And I gave up and watched something else.

    First one shot lightning

    PS Munch can I kiss you

    Me Too! on
  • TexiKenTexiKen please please I don't have any time for any gossip now Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    He....he shot lightning from insects, right? Right?

    The episode where he sticks his arm in the chipper and nothing happens, that was the first episode, right?

    TexiKen on
  • FaynorFaynor Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    Yeah I could read Munch's posts all day

    Even further, I bet I could watch him type then and get even more enjoyment out of it

    I would be in the Beetle-Cave

    Faynor on
    do you wanna see me eat a hotdog
  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2009
    TexiKen wrote: »
    He....he shot lightning from insects, right? Right?

    The episode where he sticks his arm in the chipper and nothing happens, that was the first episode, right?

    I don't remember that

    But I'm almost positive the first one shot lightning

    It was the one where they tied Clark to a fence, painted an S on his chest, and put Lana's necklace around his neck

    The second episode is called Metamorphosis which sounds like more of a bug thing to me

    Me Too! on
  • GodfatherGodfather Registered User regular
    edited August 2009
    TexiKen wrote: »
    Godfather wrote: »
    It's just a bunch of muscular men in tights fighting over God knows what, with the same armageddon-level threats as the rest of them. It doesn't help that the writers will usually pull a lot of Deus Ex Machina and have some random superhero we never even knew existed will come along with just the right abilities and save the day.

    To be fair that's exactly what Shonen Manga and anime do all the time.

    Maybe so, but it's contained in it's own little universe, and never has characters from other series jump into the fray. You aren't going to see some characters from series like Berserk or Claymore jumping in to help Luffy and the gang when things get tough. At best you'll see an original character from said universe help them out.

    No crossovers.

    That's the entire bulk of this arguement. Stay in your own damn universe.

    Godfather on
  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2009
    Godfather wrote: »
    TexiKen wrote: »
    Godfather wrote: »
    It's just a bunch of muscular men in tights fighting over God knows what, with the same armageddon-level threats as the rest of them. It doesn't help that the writers will usually pull a lot of Deus Ex Machina and have some random superhero we never even knew existed will come along with just the right abilities and save the day.

    To be fair that's exactly what Shonen Manga and anime do all the time.

    Maybe so, but it's contained in it's own little universe, and never has characters from other series jump into the fray. You aren't going to see some characters from series like Berserk or Claymore jumping in to help Luffy and the gang when things get tough. At best you'll see an original character from said universe help them out.

    No crossovers.

    That's the entire bulk of this arguement. Stay in your own damn universe.

    Hey characters appearing doesn't a crossover make

    Spider-Man is friends with the Human Torch

    This doesn't mean that anytime he talks to Johnny it's a crossover it means it's a fleshed out and connected universe

    This is a terrible argument because it relies on the assumption that characters only show up in other character's books for team-ups and it's wrong

    Me Too! on
  • ScoobaShagScoobaShag Registered User
    edited August 2009
    Yeah, it really isn't a content debate. It has everything to do with how people are getting a hold of it. I'm realizing this now more and more.

    ScoobaShag on
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