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Helping to prevent the spread of aids?

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    werehippywerehippy Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    mlsx wrote:
    Circumcision apparently can halve the risk of getting AIDS.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/guardianweekly/outlook/story/0,,1976125,00.html

    How the hell does that work? I'm not calling bullshit, it's just a blind assertion like that is not only hard to swallow, but dangerous as hell, since it'll inevitably lead to people doing stupid things thinking they're "safe".

    werehippy on
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    _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited December 2006
    Casket wrote:
    _J_ wrote:
    Do you deny 24 > 18 ?

    On what basis?

    LOL!!!

    _J_ on
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    IShallRiseAgainIShallRiseAgain Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    I think the main thing to do is to start teaching the african people that they can't have so many children. Sure, in the short term they have children to help them out, but in the end they can't feed their families. Usually, citizens of a developed country have less children then citizens of a undeveloped country. Look at what happened with china, while the child limitation law was wrong, it also helped stop the famine. It would also mean less people to educate, so more people will be taught about safe sex.

    IShallRiseAgain on
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    FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited December 2006
    werehippy wrote:
    mlsx wrote:
    Circumcision apparently can halve the risk of getting AIDS.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/guardianweekly/outlook/story/0,,1976125,00.html

    How the hell does that work? I'm not calling bullshit, it's just a blind assertion like that is not only hard to swallow, but dangerous as hell, since it'll inevitably lead to people doing stupid things thinking they're "safe".

    They're not sure exactly why, but it's probably because the foreskin itself has a mucous membrane; by circumsizing you're reducing the overall disease-vunerable surface-area of the penis and making the whole environment of the penis less hospitable to HIV.

    Needless to say, the Vatican loved this news.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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    werehippywerehippy Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    Feral wrote:
    Needless to say, the Vatican loved this news.

    This is something of a tangent, but I have a feeling that in a century or two's time the Vatican is going to be remembered as one of the most destructive organizations in human history. Leaving aside all the past atrocities, their continued archaic stances on basic issues like condoms and sex education is doing vast damage in third world countries.

    werehippy on
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    Vincent GraysonVincent Grayson Frederick, MDRegistered User regular
    edited December 2006
    _J_ wrote:
    Casket wrote:
    _J_ wrote:
    Do you deny 24 > 18 ?

    On what basis?

    LOL!!!

    You just got out_J_'d

    Vincent Grayson on
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    _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited December 2006
    I think the main thing to do is to start teaching the african people that they can't have so many children. Sure, in the short term they have children to help them out, but in the end they can't feed their families. Usually, citizens of a developed country have less children then citizens of a undeveloped country. Look at what happened with china, while the child limitation law was wrong, it also helped stop the famine. It would also mean less people to educate, so more people will be taught about safe sex.

    ....

    Do you really think this is the sort of thing that "teaching" can solve? They are living the reality of not being able to provide for their children and yet they have more. Do you really think that if someone goes up to them and says, "You know, if you had less children it would not cost as much to provide for your family." their reply will be, "...OH SHITS!! YOU'RE RIGHT! I KNEW it had to be something simple like that!"

    _J_ on
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    Locust76Locust76 Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    Feral wrote:
    Locust76 wrote:
    Saying that the spread of AIDS isn't linked to promiscuity is like saying the rise in the number of pedestrians being hit by cars isn't linked to the rise in people jumping out into traffic.

    I can't tell if you think the statement is absurd or obvious.

    It's absurdly obvious that prevention reduces the likelyhood of bad shit happening.

    Locust76 on
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    LadyMLadyM Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    In some parts of Africa, there are old wives tales that poverty is the cause of HIV/AIDS . . . literally that poverty, not sex with someone infected, is the cause. And in some other parts men believe that having sex with a virgin will cure them of HIV/AIDS. Education aimed at convincing people this is not the case would be a big help (along with the distribution of condoms.)

    Anyone know the percentage of Africans with HIV/AIDS, out of curiosity? And does it tend to occur more in the urban or rural areas?

    LadyM on
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    FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited December 2006
    Locust76 wrote:
    Feral wrote:
    Locust76 wrote:
    Saying that the spread of AIDS isn't linked to promiscuity is like saying the rise in the number of pedestrians being hit by cars isn't linked to the rise in people jumping out into traffic.

    I can't tell if you think the statement is absurd or obvious.

    It's absurdly obvious that prevention reduces the likelyhood of bad shit happening.

    The bolded statement, though true, is irrelevant to the conversation. The article shows that promiscuity is not a major contributing factor to the African HIV pandemic. Africans are having less sex than Europeans and Americans. Preventative efforts targeting promiscuity would be less effective at controlling HIV than preventative efforts targeting a lack of education, access to health care, and access (and use of) contraceptives.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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    bone daddybone daddy Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited December 2006
    _J_ wrote:
    Do you really think this is the sort of thing that "teaching" can solve? They are living the reality of not being able to provide for their children and yet they have more. Do you really think that if someone goes up to them and says, "You know, if you had less children it would not cost as much to provide for your family." their reply will be, "...OH SHITS!! YOU'RE RIGHT! I KNEW it had to be something simple like that!"
    Presumably you could teach them how to use condoms, provide them in abundance, and solve a large amount of the problem. If we could just get the Vatican to come 'round to the idea that procreation is not the sole purpose of sex, it might solve everything that isn't due to pure human irresponsibility or condom failure.

    bone daddy on
    Rogue helicopter?
    Ecoterrorism is actually the single largest terrorist threat at the moment. They don't usually kill people, but they blow up or set on fire very expensive things.
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    _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited December 2006
    bone daddy wrote:
    Presumably you could teach them how to use condoms, provide them in abundance, and solve a large amount of the problem. If we could just get the Vatican to come 'round to the idea that procreation is not the sole purpose of sex, it might solve everything that isn't due to pure human irresponsibility or condom failure.

    BLASPHAMY!!!

    _J_ on
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    JohannenJohannen Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    So, how's this helping to prevent the spread of aids, as the forum says? Isn't this more like, a thread talking about how aids isn't related to how much we boink?

    EDIT: also, with the whole teaching how to use a condom thing, i never really found that i had a problem getting the condom on, it's just that my dick looked funny bright green with a little teet on top. The elbow didn't help either. :wink:

    Johannen on
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    ZonkytonkmanZonkytonkman Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    Casket wrote:
    werehippy wrote:
    In this specific case, you advocated stopping all prevention measure and focusing on finding a cure, and all everyone else is saying is that your idea is a worse use of resources than the alternative.

    I'm just going to throw my hands up and say people can go ahead and prevent whatever the fuck they want, as long as moral obligation does not get in the way of finding an actual cure.

    Because the cure, should be the real goal.

    I think you're assuming that the "cure" is going to be some pill or injection wonder drug.

    If each cure requires $20,000-$100,000 worth of treatment, no one in africa is getting one.

    And while the aids virus can spread exponentially, with each new infection exposing others to infection, knowledge can spread the same way. If you educate one person properly about prevention, and they tell their friends children and so on, you've got a whole lot of safe people really quickly.

    The culture in much of the developed world is that children learn about sex and STD's through their parents and the schools. This keeps a large number of our people safe. I think needle use is a far greater cause of AIDS in n. america. If Africa were to copy this culture of education*, we could have this disease locked down there within a generation or two.

    Or rather, few new cases within that time, then the disease dies out.

    *Fundie US excluded

    Zonkytonkman on
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    FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited December 2006
    If each cure requires $20,000-$100,000 worth of treatment, no one in africa is getting one.

    And while the aids virus can spread exponentially, with each new infection exposing others to infection, knowledge can spread the same way. If you educate one person properly about prevention, and they tell their friends children and so on, you've got a whole lot of safe people really quickly.

    The culture in much of the developed world is that children learn about sex and STD's through their parents and the schools. This keeps a large number of our people safe. I think needle use is a far greater cause of AIDS in n. america. If Africa were to copy this culture of education*, we could have this disease locked down there within a generation or two.

    Or rather, few new cases within that time, then the disease dies out.

    In all fairness, education alone is not what controls the spread of AIDS in the first world. HIV growth rates would be higher in the first world if it weren't for antiviral drugs - which, in many cases, not only prevent HIV from blossoming into AIDS, but also reduce the risk of transmission to HIV- partners.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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    slurpeepoopslurpeepoop Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    So, has anyone suggested nuking from orbit yet?

    It's the only way to be sure.

    slurpeepoop on
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    IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited December 2006
    ...

    I know this will never happen, due to charities and so forth...

    ...but...


    "AIDS Orgy Clubs."

    I know, I know, sounds idiotic...

    ...And I know it won't happen...

    BUT...

    If the people who are known to have AIDS have an incentive to only have sex with each other... it could potentially reduce the risk to the non-infected population, since, let's face it, most people with STDs aren't going to stop having sex just because it might slowly kill a few thousand people they don't know.

    Incenjucar on
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    FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited December 2006
    Incenjucar wrote:
    ...

    I know this will never happen, due to charities and so forth...

    ...but...


    "AIDS Orgy Clubs."

    I know, I know, sounds idiotic...

    ...And I know it won't happen...

    BUT...

    If the people who are known to have AIDS have an incentive to only have sex with each other... it could potentially reduce the risk to the non-infected population, since, let's face it, most people with STDs aren't going to stop having sex just because it might slowly kill a few thousand people they don't know.

    There are plenty of formal and informal STD+ singles/dating/swinging/sex communities in lots of major cities, at least in the first world. I know that's not much good if you're not in Castro or Dupont Circle, but they're out there.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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    IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited December 2006
    Feral wrote:
    Incenjucar wrote:
    ...

    I know this will never happen, due to charities and so forth...

    ...but...


    "AIDS Orgy Clubs."

    I know, I know, sounds idiotic...

    ...And I know it won't happen...

    BUT...

    If the people who are known to have AIDS have an incentive to only have sex with each other... it could potentially reduce the risk to the non-infected population, since, let's face it, most people with STDs aren't going to stop having sex just because it might slowly kill a few thousand people they don't know.

    There are plenty of formal and informal STD+ singles/dating/swinging/sex communities in lots of major cities, at least in the first world. I know that's not much good if you're not in Castro or Dupont Circle, but they're out there.

    Sometimes my hatred of the 1st world is not overwhelming. Thank you.

    In that case: We need those to start spreading to larger-numbered worlds.

    STDs are a sad fact of life right now, and make the joys of casual sex a fricking nightmare.

    Makes everyone's life easier if you know that you won't harm or be harmed by your lovers (at least not significantly more than is already the case).

    Not to mention that it creates a potential nexus for education.

    Incenjucar on
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    FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited December 2006
    Incenjucar wrote:
    Feral wrote:
    Incenjucar wrote:
    ...

    I know this will never happen, due to charities and so forth...

    ...but...


    "AIDS Orgy Clubs."

    I know, I know, sounds idiotic...

    ...And I know it won't happen...

    BUT...

    If the people who are known to have AIDS have an incentive to only have sex with each other... it could potentially reduce the risk to the non-infected population, since, let's face it, most people with STDs aren't going to stop having sex just because it might slowly kill a few thousand people they don't know.

    There are plenty of formal and informal STD+ singles/dating/swinging/sex communities in lots of major cities, at least in the first world. I know that's not much good if you're not in Castro or Dupont Circle, but they're out there.

    Sometimes my hatred of the 1st world is not overwhelming. Thank you.

    In that case: We need those to start spreading to larger-numbered worlds.

    STDs are a sad fact of life right now, and make the joys of casual sex a fricking nightmare.

    Makes everyone's life easier if you know that you won't harm or be harmed by your lovers (at least not significantly more than is already the case).

    Not to mention that it creates a potential nexus for education.

    Unfortunately this is like talking about how nice it would be to stream XBLA games over Comcast in a country where people dig up power lines so they can sell the scrap copper.

    I mean, people in some of these countries don't know - or don't believe - that AIDS is caused by a sexually transmitted virus... to speak nothing of the lack of access to blood tests or contraception.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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    IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited December 2006
    Feral wrote:
    Incenjucar wrote:
    Feral wrote:
    Incenjucar wrote:
    ...

    I know this will never happen, due to charities and so forth...

    ...but...


    "AIDS Orgy Clubs."

    I know, I know, sounds idiotic...

    ...And I know it won't happen...

    BUT...

    If the people who are known to have AIDS have an incentive to only have sex with each other... it could potentially reduce the risk to the non-infected population, since, let's face it, most people with STDs aren't going to stop having sex just because it might slowly kill a few thousand people they don't know.

    There are plenty of formal and informal STD+ singles/dating/swinging/sex communities in lots of major cities, at least in the first world. I know that's not much good if you're not in Castro or Dupont Circle, but they're out there.

    Sometimes my hatred of the 1st world is not overwhelming. Thank you.

    In that case: We need those to start spreading to larger-numbered worlds.

    STDs are a sad fact of life right now, and make the joys of casual sex a fricking nightmare.

    Makes everyone's life easier if you know that you won't harm or be harmed by your lovers (at least not significantly more than is already the case).

    Not to mention that it creates a potential nexus for education.

    Unfortunately this is like talking about how nice it would be to stream XBLA games over Comcast in a country where people dig up power lines so they can sell the scrap copper.

    I mean, people in some of these countries don't know - or don't believe - that AIDS is caused by a sexually transmitted virus... to speak nothing of the lack of access to blood tests or contraception.

    Unfortunately, the only people who are allowed to destroy superstitious, science-weak cultures are religious groups, industrialists, and war lords.

    Incenjucar on
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    CorvusCorvus . VancouverRegistered User regular
    edited December 2006
    LadyM wrote:
    Anyone know the percentage of Africans with HIV/AIDS, out of curiosity?

    Not me personally, no, but WHO does.
    aidstatsgz5.jpg

    Snapshot from Global Aids Numbers Factsheet
    Warning, its a PDF.
    Other factsheets here

    Its worse than I thought in Africa. More than half the world HIV positive population is in sub saharan africa, and almost all the deaths from AIDS this year worldwide were there. And the rate of infection there is greater than the death rate from AIDs.

    Jesus motherfucking Christ.

    Corvus on
    :so_raven:
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    MentalExerciseMentalExercise Indefenestrable Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    I say we just let the Brits have Africa for fifty years or so. They can do that horrible colony thing, and it'll be terrible, but it would create structure that might last and make education and AIDS prevention easier. Remember kids, it's ok to do horrible things to innocent people, as long as it makes things better in the long run. right?
    right guys?
    right?
    guys?
    c'mon guys!
    someone?
    where're the communists when i need them?
    no one?
    fine.
    you guys would suck at world takeover.

    MentalExercise on
    "More fish for Kunta!"

    --LeVar Burton
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    slurpeepoopslurpeepoop Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    I say we just let the Brits have Africa for fifty years or so. They can do that horrible colony thing, and it'll be terrible, but it would create structure that might last and make education and AIDS prevention easier. Remember kids, it's ok to do horrible things to innocent people, as long as it makes things better in the long run. right?
    right guys?
    right?
    guys?
    c'mon guys!
    someone?
    where're the communists when i need them?
    no one?
    fine.
    you guys would suck at world takeover.

    Sub-Saharan African colonization was only implemented to facilitate moderately efficient mining, hunting and fishing, and for a few millenia, slavery industries. Naval shipping and militarization came later.

    Sub-Saharan Africa was never in a situation where the British Empire (or anyone else, really) wanted to build a state of the art, utopian society. The locals were just commodities, rag-tag military fodder, and labor to keep other nations' treasuries full since before the days of the Old Testament-era Israelites. Education was never an issue, especially to those who needed to keep these people under their thumb.

    These poor people have been the world's bitches since time began.

    slurpeepoop on
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    Low KeyLow Key Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    bone daddy wrote:
    Presumably you could teach them how to use condoms, provide them in abundance, and solve a large amount of the problem. If we could just get the Vatican to come 'round to the idea that procreation is not the sole purpose of sex, it might solve everything that isn't due to pure human irresponsibility or condom failure.

    Not all the stigmaticism around condoms is because of Catholocism. There's a whole lot of "Rah noone will stop my seed!" young (and not so young) guy dumbness that can be addressed right now without caring about what the Vatican is doing.

    I like the idea I heard one AIDs worker suggest of using prostitutes as sex education workers. They're generally the best educated people when it comes to protection, anyway.

    Low Key on
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    bone daddybone daddy Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited December 2006
    Low Key wrote:
    bone daddy wrote:
    Presumably you could teach them how to use condoms, provide them in abundance, and solve a large amount of the problem. If we could just get the Vatican to come 'round to the idea that procreation is not the sole purpose of sex, it might solve everything that isn't due to pure human irresponsibility or condom failure.

    Not all the stigmaticism around condoms is because of Catholocism. There's a whole lot of "Rah noone will stop my seed!" young (and not so young) guy dumbness that can be addressed right now without caring about what the Vatican is doing.

    I'd like to think that most non-completely-irresponsible humans won't look at their pack of kids that they can barely feed and think that what they desperately need is another one to prove their manhood. And there's not a whole lot of hope for the completely irresponsible ones. Any lesson you can't take from your crying, hungry children isn't likely to be one WHO can teach you.

    bone daddy on
    Rogue helicopter?
    Ecoterrorism is actually the single largest terrorist threat at the moment. They don't usually kill people, but they blow up or set on fire very expensive things.
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    GoodOmensGoodOmens Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    LadyM wrote:
    In some parts of Africa, there are old wives tales that poverty is the cause of HIV/AIDS . . . literally that poverty, not sex with someone infected, is the cause. And in some other parts men believe that having sex with a virgin will cure them of HIV/AIDS. Education aimed at convincing people this is not the case would be a big help (along with the distribution of condoms.)

    Anyone know the percentage of Africans with HIV/AIDS, out of curiosity? And does it tend to occur more in the urban or rural areas?

    Needless to say, it varies from country to country, and any statistics from that part of the world are questionable at best.

    That said, according to UNAIDS, the prevalence in the adult population in sub-Saharan Africa is about 11%. It's lower in the northern countries. The highest prevalence is in South Africa, then Nigeria, which surprised me, given that I remember hearing a while back that Botswana had the highest rate at around 33%. I must have misheard that.

    I was also surprised to read that the biggest cause of new infections in some of those countries (e.g. Ghana, Niger, etc.) is commercial sex. On hindsight it makes perfect sense, but I hadn't thought of them as having prostitution.

    By the way, http://www.unaids.org/en/HIV_data/2006GlobalReport/default.asp

    As to what can be done...as painful as it is to say, not much. I'd like to say that the world needs to confront the Catholic Church, given the power they have in the region, and convince them to change their stance on birth control, but you're dealing with an organization which views time in terms of centuries, and whose authority figure is God. They aren't going to change quickly.

    GoodOmens on
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    GoodOmensGoodOmens Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    Corvus wrote:
    Its worse than I thought in Africa. More than half the world HIV positive population is in sub saharan africa, and almost all the deaths from AIDS this year worldwide were there. And the rate of infection there is greater than the death rate from AIDs.

    Jesus motherfucking Christ.

    Try not to think about it too much. You'll only want to smash your head through a plate glass window.

    GoodOmens on
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    The Big ShingThe Big Shing Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    GoodOmens wrote:
    As to what can be done...as painful as it is to say, not much. I'd like to say that the world needs to confront the Catholic Church, given the power they have in the region, and convince them to change their stance on birth control, but you're dealing with an organization which views time in terms of centuries, and whose authority figure is God. They aren't going to change.

    honestly, just give it up.

    and this article is rediculous. all it says is that africa is less promsicuous than more developed countries. guess what, Africa is still promiscious. We would be just as fucked if we didnt have so much friggin money, and condom dispensers on our toasters. But all this does is sweep the problem under the carpet.

    This is because the problem isnt Aids, the problem is lack of respect for marraige/sex/children. Some people have said that sex isnt just about procreation, well guess what the Catholic Church agrees with you, but it also isnt just about an orgasm. The simple fact is that if people only had sex with their when they were married, and only with who they were married to (as the church teaches) there would be no STDs.

    You can't say promiscuity isnt a problem, and then talk about married men who have sex with prostitutes. The problem is not the wives they come home to not being able to use comdoms, its the promiscuous men.

    People want to throw condoms at the problem, but this wont change anything. The Catholic Church is the only organization who actually wants to stop the problem, not just the symptom. They are the only ones who don't treat the Africans as fuck-happy dogs who have no human self control. The Catholic Church believes people can change, cuz they can. They are looking at the long term. About the overall status of life not simply lengthening the time of life.

    this was kinda ranty, but people all to quick are liek HAALGAHGLHG CATHOLIC CHURCH HATES LIVES AND CAUSES DEATH. thats fucking stupid. The church is trying to help in way more ways than I see anyone else doing.

    If anyone is curious about what the church really teaches, and not just what people who don't know say on TV, give me a PM (i'm quite bored at work)

    Also, this was just really about promiscuity. i tried to focus just on that. i totally get the other reasons for the spraid of AIDS (bad equipment, lack of education to know what to do if you have aids), and all that should (no shit) be dealt with too.

    The Big Shing on
    Yeoldemapmaker.com = my sweet flash site where you can design and print DnD maps for free directly from browser.
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    Dread Pirate ArbuthnotDread Pirate Arbuthnot OMG WRIGGLY T O X O P L A S M O S I SRegistered User regular
    edited December 2006
    I think that for a while, to help vanquish the problem of AIDS, Africa needs a serious culture shift. Now, I am not an expert on Africa, so correct me if I am wrong on any of these points.

    First of all, I think it may be useful if some of the money sent in for AIDS research would be instead invested in schools, hospitals, businesses. Offer African people chances at life that do not necessarily need so many children. Farmers need to have lots of children because the children serve a double role as farmhands (I remember that earlier in the thread, someone remarked that children were also used as a way of establishing your manhood - these are some of the cultural viewpoints that we need to revamp.)

    I know many people in this thread are saying that "Condoms! Condoms! We need to throw condoms at this problem!" Will establishing birth control such as condoms in Africa help with the problem? Yes. But I also believe that we need to teach abstinence as well. I know that some people may see this as a problem - yes, people are human, and they are going to want to have sex. You cannot suppress natural urges. But when having sex is one of the only ways to get AIDS, then yes, it should be discouraged to have sex with multiple partners before you are married, or have mistresses. Abstinence should be taught, but not the only thing taught.

    Please excuse me if I am wrong on any of these points. :oops:

    Dread Pirate Arbuthnot on
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    werehippywerehippy Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    GoodOmens wrote:
    As to what can be done...as painful as it is to say, not much. I'd like to say that the world needs to confront the Catholic Church, given the power they have in the region, and convince them to change their stance on birth control, but you're dealing with an organization which views time in terms of centuries, and whose authority figure is God. They aren't going to change.

    honestly, just give it up.

    and this article is rediculous. all it says is that africa is less promsicuous than more developed countries. guess what, Africa is still promiscious. We would be just as fucked if we didnt have so much friggin money, and condom dispensers on our toasters. But all this does is sweep the problem under the carpet.

    This is because the problem isnt Aids, the problem is lack of respect for marraige/sex/children. Some people have said that sex isnt just about procreation, well guess what the Catholic Church agrees with you, but it also isnt just about an orgasm. The simple fact is that if people only had sex with their when they were married, and only with who they were married to (as the church teaches) there would be no STDs.

    You can't say promiscuity isnt a problem, and then talk about married men who have sex with prostitutes. The problem is not the wives they come home to not being able to use comdoms, its the promiscuous men.

    People want to throw condoms at the problem, but this wont change anything. The Catholic Church is the only organization who actually wants to stop the problem, not just the symptom. They are the only ones who don't treat the Africans as fuck-happy dogs who have no human self control. The Catholic Church believes people can change, cuz they can. They are looking at the long term. About the overall status of life not simply lengthening the time of life.

    this was kinda ranty, but people all to quick are liek HAALGAHGLHG CATHOLIC CHURCH HATES LIVES AND CAUSES DEATH. thats fucking stupid. The church is trying to help in way more ways than I see anyone else doing.

    If anyone is curious about what the church really teaches, and not just what people who don't know say on TV, give me a PM (i'm quite bored at work)

    Also, this was just really about promiscuity. i tried to focus just on that. i totally get the other reasons for the spraid of AIDS (bad equipment, lack of education to know what to do if you have aids), and all that should (no shit) be dealt with too.

    Yeah, except your argument falls apart at any number of points.

    The Catholic Church has existed for a good 1700 years, and some how hasn't managed to instill all these wonderful changes in humanity, despite being the only source of moral or intellectual authority for a good 1500 of those years. What exactly makes you think the Church will ever be successful in forcing any kind of change, let alone useful ones?

    Abstinence only (ie no promiscuity) has been shown to fail in every possible measure. It simply doesn't work. All it does is make people less willing and less informed about how to have safe sex whenever they finally do.

    And finally, sex isn't "the problem". It's not having sex that causes the spread of AIDS, it's having unsafe sex. Trying to enforce a "no sex till, or outside of, marriage" has proven nothing but detrimental to slowing the spread of STDs.

    werehippy on
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    ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA Mod Emeritus
    edited December 2006
    This is because the problem isnt Aids, the problem is lack of respect for marraige/sex/children. Some people have said that sex isnt just about procreation, well guess what the Catholic Church agrees with you, but it also isnt just about an orgasm. The simple fact is that if people only had sex with their when they were married, and only with who they were married to (as the church teaches) there would be no STDs.
    How will Sex feel if we ignore it, and hang around with its cousin Bad Sex? I don't think Sex will feel respected at all.

    If it does not fit, you must... find another partner.

    Elki on
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    electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    I enjoy these solutions which would totally work if people would just stop being humans.

    electricitylikesme on
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    The Big ShingThe Big Shing Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    werehippy wrote:
    GoodOmens wrote:

    snip

    snip

    Yeah, except your argument falls apart at any number of points.

    The Catholic Church has existed for a good 1700 years, and some how hasn't managed to instill all these wonderful changes in humanity, despite being the only source of moral or intellectual authority for a good 1500 of those years. What exactly makes you think the Church will ever be successful in forcing any kind of change, let alone useful ones?

    Abstinence only (ie no promiscuity) has been shown to fail in every possible measure. It simply doesn't work. All it does is make people less willing and less informed about how to have safe sex whenever they finally do.

    And finally, sex isn't "the problem". It's not having sex that causes the spread of AIDS, it's having unsafe sex. Trying to enforce a "no sex till, or outside of, marriage" has proven nothing but detrimental to slowing the spread of STDs.


    but all you say here is that people have never actually done what the Church suggests. That != to it not being a good idea.

    also, ofcourse forcing people to not have sex wont work. That's not what i was suggesting, nor what the Church does. You can't force people to do the kinds of things the Church suggest, its got to be of their own volition, and (with any luck) supported by those around them. Those who work for the church try to educate people not just on the biology of the problem but on how to be a better person.

    as with what Captain Cass mentioned, it has to be a cultural change, not simply a biological one. and yea, its going to be really really really hard. But I tend to think that the easy solutions don't really help anything. I look at Africa, and it blows. It's completely awful that these people have to live in pain and die prematurely, but I'm sure as hell not going to set that country on the path America took. As sick as it sounds, people in Africa atleast get to live, where in my country one of our biggest problems is people dying before they are even born, before they even get a chance to do something besides grow.

    as for history as a whole you cant look at the world, point at evil and say the Catholic Church is not working, it's the fact that evil exists is why the Catholic Church exists. Humans are weak, and susceptible to selfish and evil acts. In a really really really distilled generalization the Catholic Church tries to help people rise above these temptations whilist trying to make the world such that their are fewer and fewer instances where these deeds are needed to be done.

    sorry, i dont want to derail.

    also, does the forum log anyone else out when they are typing a post?

    The Big Shing on
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    ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA Mod Emeritus
    edited December 2006
    I look at Africa, and it blows. It's completely awful that these people have to live in pain and die prematurely, but I'm sure as hell not going to set that country on the path America took. As sick as it sounds, people in Africa atleast get to live, where in my country one of our biggest problems is people dying before they are even born, before they even get a chance to do something besides grow.
    I bet you wouldn't say that if you actually lived there, dispshit.

    Elki on
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    sanstodosanstodo Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    I think that for a while, to help vanquish the problem of AIDS, Africa needs a serious culture shift. Now, I am not an expert on Africa, so correct me if I am wrong on any of these points.

    First of all, I think it may be useful if some of the money sent in for AIDS research would be instead invested in schools, hospitals, businesses. Offer African people chances at life that do not necessarily need so many children. Farmers need to have lots of children because the children serve a double role as farmhands (I remember that earlier in the thread, someone remarked that children were also used as a way of establishing your manhood - these are some of the cultural viewpoints that we need to revamp.)

    I know many people in this thread are saying that "Condoms! Condoms! We need to throw condoms at this problem!" Will establishing birth control such as condoms in Africa help with the problem? Yes. But I also believe that we need to teach abstinence as well. I know that some people may see this as a problem - yes, people are human, and they are going to want to have sex. You cannot suppress natural urges. But when having sex is one of the only ways to get AIDS, then yes, it should be discouraged to have sex with multiple partners before you are married, or have mistresses. Abstinence should be taught, but not the only thing taught.

    Please excuse me if I am wrong on any of these points. :oops:

    The problem in Africa is much more complicated than you and Cass make it out to be. A lack of respect for marriage/sex/children is not only untrue (although some constructions of marriage, the importance of sex and how/why it should be done, and the role of children differ markedly in some areas of sub-Saharan Africa than it does in many Western countries) but a vast oversimplification of the problems facing Africa.

    Even without HIV/AIDS, Africa suffers from huge problems stemming largely from poverty, climate, and cities. For thousands of years, people in Africa lived in low population density systems with people spread out over large areas of land. This served two important functions; it prevented local variances in climate from causing widespread famine (the monsoon system is consistent on a macro scale but wildly inconsistent year to year on a micro scale) and it prevented an outbreak of an infectious disease in one locale from decimating large populations. Colonialism changed all of this. The city system that works so well in temperate and cold climates was forced onto an entirely different climate and geography. Both of the advantages of the old system were lost. The constant outbreaks of infectious diseases that can travel quickly and kill or cripple are compounded by cities themselves.

    Add poverty, a lack of medical infrastructure, and a culture in which modern medicine is not an organically grown concept (and in fact contradictory to traditional understandings of health and illness) to this situation and you can see how difficult it is to tackle not only HIV/AIDS in sub-Saharan Africa, but disease itself.

    The claim that STDs would not exist if people only had sex in marriage ignores not only human nature and the way modern societies work (ie the study showing that rates of premarital sex are largely unchanged in the US since the 1950s....and that rate is about 95%) but is outright wrong in Africa. Many people are BORN with HIV/AIDS due either to a shortage of drugs to prevent transmission from mother to child or a refusal to take such drugs (or even acknowledge the existence of HIV/AIDS since it contradicts their religion). I'm sorry, but arguing that promiscuity is the SOLE or even MAIN cause of the spread of HIV/AIDS or that abstinence education would fix anything at this point is ridiculous.

    The Catholic Church is pointedly ignoring both human nature and the actual extent of the problem. Abstinence only education does not fix anything. If virginity pledges in the US don't reduce the STD rate, then how can we expect them to work elsewhere?

    Links to the failure of abstinence only education to the prevention of STDs in the US:

    http://www.aclu.org/reproductiverights/sexed/12604res20050504.html

    The Church may being trying to help but they're going at the problem all wrong. They're letting their own preconceived notions of right and wrong dictate how and why they help, rather than analyzing the problem and finding creative, effective solutions. Although the Church may have good intentions, their actions may indeed be the cause of more deaths than lives saved.

    sanstodo on
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    werehippywerehippy Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    as with what Captain Cass mentioned, it has to be a cultural change, not simply a biological one. and yea, its going to be really really really hard. But I tend to think that the easy solutions don't really help anything. I look at Africa, and it blows. It's completely awful that these people have to live in pain and die prematurely, but I'm sure as hell not going to set that country on the path America took. As sick as it sounds, people in Africa atleast get to live, where in my country one of our biggest problems is people dying before they are even born, before they even get a chance to do something besides grow.


    Aaaaaaand, we're done. You stopped being worth listening to the second you claimed that we should hold out for a magic solution as opposed to working on the problem because Africa is better of than America, thanks to our moral corruption.

    And I'd love to go on about how not only is the Church shit useless at stopping "evil", but has been the source of any number of the ills of society, but we already have a thread where we're going into no small amount of detail about the damages of religion (the Stop using Solipism thread).

    werehippy on
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    bone daddybone daddy Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited December 2006
    Elkamil wrote:
    I look at Africa, and it blows. It's completely awful that these people have to live in pain and die prematurely, but I'm sure as hell not going to set that country on the path America took. As sick as it sounds, people in Africa atleast get to live, where in my country one of our biggest problems is people dying before they are even born, before they even get a chance to do something besides grow.
    I bet you wouldn't say that if you actually lived there, dispshit.
    You're being uncharitable, Elkamil. I'm sure his idealism would be able to stand firm in the face of starvation, terrible disease, and man's inhumanity to man. Abortion is way worse than watching a actual children die a painful death of an easily-curable or -preventable disease, or babies die of hunger.

    bone daddy on
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    sanstodosanstodo Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    but all you say here is that people have never actually done what the Church suggests. That != to it not being a good idea.

    also, ofcourse forcing people to not have sex wont work. That's not what i was suggesting, nor what the Church does. You can't force people to do the kinds of things the Church suggest, its got to be of their own volition, and (with any luck) supported by those around them. Those who work for the church try to educate people not just on the biology of the problem but on how to be a better person.

    as with what Captain Cass mentioned, it has to be a cultural change, not simply a biological one. and yea, its going to be really really really hard. But I tend to think that the easy solutions don't really help anything. I look at Africa, and it blows. It's completely awful that these people have to live in pain and die prematurely, but I'm sure as hell not going to set that country on the path America took. As sick as it sounds, people in Africa atleast get to live, where in my country one of our biggest problems is people dying before they are even born, before they even get a chance to do something besides grow.

    as for history as a whole you cant look at the world, point at evil and say the Catholic Church is not working, it's the fact that evil exists is why the Catholic Church exists. Humans are weak, and susceptible to selfish and evil acts. In a really really really distilled generalization the Catholic Church tries to help people rise above these temptations whilist trying to make the world such that their are fewer and fewer instances where these deeds are needed to be done.

    sorry, i dont want to derail.

    also, does the forum log anyone else out when they are typing a post?

    Set your browser to automatically log you in. That fixed my logging problem.

    Re: your argument. While you can't blame the Catholic Church for all ills, you can pin the blame on them for the problems they either create or exacerbate. If they are preaching ineffective or counterproductive methods to combat a problem, then they are not helping. Rather, they are contributing to the suffering of others despite their best intentions.

    If you had any understanding of sexual politics and reproductive rights in Africa, you'd know that your statement that sub-Saharan Africa is a better place since women do not have the right to abortions is a completely ignorant one. The lack of availability of safe abortions is a problem, not a positive, for the women in the region.

    sanstodo on
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    ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    as for history as a whole you cant look at the world, point at evil and say the Catholic Church is not working, it's the fact that evil exists is why the Catholic Church exists. Humans are weak, and susceptible to selfish and evil acts. In a really really really distilled generalization the Catholic Church tries to help people rise above these temptations whilist trying to make the world such that their are fewer and fewer instances where these deeds are needed to be done.
    Is this before or after they play child molester three-card Monte?

    Thanatos on
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