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Helping to prevent the spread of aids?

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    JohannenJohannen Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    bone daddy wrote:
    Elkamil wrote:
    I look at Africa, and it blows. It's completely awful that these people have to live in pain and die prematurely, but I'm sure as hell not going to set that country on the path America took. As sick as it sounds, people in Africa atleast get to live, where in my country one of our biggest problems is people dying before they are even born, before they even get a chance to do something besides grow.
    I bet you wouldn't say that if you actually lived there, dispshit.
    You're being uncharitable, Elkamil. I'm sure his idealism would be able to stand firm in the face of starvation, terrible disease, and man's inhumanity to man. Abortion is way worse than watching a actual children die a painful death of an easily-curable or -preventable disease, or babies die of hunger.

    Jesus.... i'm not even religious but this needs a "Jesus" just to let you know how much of a fucktard statement this is. I've always wondered why we only hear about the deaths by aids in Africa, or the death by torture and rape. It's because Africans never miscarry do they?! Dammit, i should've listened better in High School.

    Johannen on
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    Whiniest Man On EarthWhiniest Man On Earth Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    Elkamil wrote:
    I look at Africa, and it blows. It's completely awful that these people have to live in pain and die prematurely, but I'm sure as hell not going to set that country on the path America took. As sick as it sounds, people in Africa atleast get to live, where in my country one of our biggest problems is people dying before they are even born, before they even get a chance to do something besides grow.
    I bet you wouldn't say that if you actually had a reasonable lick of sense, dispshit.

    Fixed. Are you kidding me, Shing? What precisely qualifies you to judge the quality of life of a completely different culture? Care to cite some scientific examples of all Africans living in pain?

    Did you know that lots of tribal and indigenous people have abortions, too?

    Whiniest Man On Earth on
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    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited December 2006
    Thanatos wrote:
    as for history as a whole you cant look at the world, point at evil and say the Catholic Church is not working, it's the fact that evil exists is why the Catholic Church exists. Humans are weak, and susceptible to selfish and evil acts. In a really really really distilled generalization the Catholic Church tries to help people rise above these temptations whilist trying to make the world such that their are fewer and fewer instances where these deeds are needed to be done.
    Is this before or after they play child molester three-card Monte?

    And I guess we ignore all the evils that the Catholic Church has helped or caused.

    Fencingsax on
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    JohannenJohannen Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    I say we just let the Brits have Africa for fifty years or so. They can do that horrible colony thing, and it'll be terrible, but it would create structure that might last and make education and AIDS prevention easier. Remember kids, it's ok to do horrible things to innocent people, as long as it makes things better in the long run. right?
    right guys?
    right?
    guys?
    c'mon guys!
    someone?
    where're the communists when i need them?
    no one?
    fine.
    you guys would suck at world takeover.

    It would've worked too if it wasn't for that damn Ghandi!!

    Johannen on
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    bone daddybone daddy Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited December 2006
    Fencingsax wrote:
    Thanatos wrote:
    as for history as a whole you cant look at the world, point at evil and say the Catholic Church is not working, it's the fact that evil exists is why the Catholic Church exists. Humans are weak, and susceptible to selfish and evil acts. In a really really really distilled generalization the Catholic Church tries to help people rise above these temptations whilist trying to make the world such that their are fewer and fewer instances where these deeds are needed to be done.
    Is this before or after they play child molester three-card Monte?

    And I guess we ignore all the evils that the Catholic Church has helped or caused.
    You're going to Godwin this bitch aren't you? Bad Fencingsax. Bad, bad Fencingsax.

    bone daddy on
    Rogue helicopter?
    Ecoterrorism is actually the single largest terrorist threat at the moment. They don't usually kill people, but they blow up or set on fire very expensive things.
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    The Big ShingThe Big Shing Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    sanstodo wrote:
    snip.

    The problem in Africa is much more complicated than you and Cass make it out to be. A lack of respect for marriage/sex/children is not only untrue (although some constructions of marriage, the importance of sex and how/why it should be done, and the role of children differ markedly in some areas of sub-Saharan Africa than it does in many Western countries) but a vast oversimplification of the problems facing Africa.

    Even without HIV/AIDS, Africa suffers from huge problems stemming largely from poverty, climate, and cities. For thousands of years, people in Africa lived in low population density systems with people spread out over large areas of land. This served two important functions; it prevented local variances in climate from causing widespread famine (the monsoon system is consistent on a macro scale but wildly inconsistent year to year on a micro scale) and it prevented an outbreak of an infectious disease in one locale from decimating large populations. Colonialism changed all of this. The city system that works so well in temperate and cold climates was forced onto an entirely different climate and geography. Both of the advantages of the old system were lost. The constant outbreaks of infectious diseases that can travel quickly and kill or cripple are compounded by cities themselves.

    Add poverty, a lack of medical infrastructure, and a culture in which modern medicine is not an organically grown concept (and in fact contradictory to traditional understandings of health and illness) to this situation and you can see how difficult it is to tackle not only HIV/AIDS in sub-Saharan Africa, but disease itself.

    The claim that STDs would not exist if people only had sex in marriage ignores not only human nature and the way modern societies work (ie the study showing that rates of premarital sex are largely unchanged in the US since the 1950s....and that rate is about 95%) but is outright wrong in Africa. Many people are BORN with HIV/AIDS due either to a shortage of drugs to prevent transmission from mother to child or a refusal to take such drugs (or even acknowledge the existence of HIV/AIDS since it contradicts their religion). I'm sorry, but arguing that promiscuity is the SOLE or even MAIN cause of the spread of HIV/AIDS or that abstinence education would fix anything at this point is ridiculous.

    The Catholic Church is pointedly ignoring both human nature and the actual extent of the problem. Abstinence only education does not fix anything. If virginity pledges in the US don't reduce the STD rate, then how can we expect them to work elsewhere?

    Links to the failure of abstinence only education to the prevention of STDs in the US:

    http://www.aclu.org/reproductiverights/sexed/12604res20050504.html

    The Church may being trying to help but they're going at the problem all wrong. They're letting their own preconceived notions of right and wrong dictate how and why they help, rather than analyzing the problem and finding creative, effective solutions. Although the Church may have good intentions, their actions may indeed be the cause of more deaths than lives saved.

    i totally hear you. i tried (poorly) at the end of my original post to explain that i didnt think promiscuity was the MAIN/ONLY problem. my original post was just about the discussion on promiscuity. While I hadn't read every single post in this thread up until that point, a great deal was simply being "Gawd, why cant we just throw condoms at this problem, the church is s Stupis!" Promiscuity is absolutely one of the problems - even if it isnt the main one, and I was discussing my view on how to deal with that problem.

    I also think the other problems need solutions too, I just simply don't know, but totally want to hear ideas.

    The Big Shing on
    Yeoldemapmaker.com = my sweet flash site where you can design and print DnD maps for free directly from browser.
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    ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited December 2006
    bone daddy wrote:
    Elkamil wrote:
    I look at Africa, and it blows. It's completely awful that these people have to live in pain and die prematurely, but I'm sure as hell not going to set that country on the path America took. As sick as it sounds, people in Africa atleast get to live, where in my country one of our biggest problems is people dying before they are even born, before they even get a chance to do something besides grow.
    I bet you wouldn't say that if you actually lived there, dispshit.
    You're being uncharitable, Elkamil. I'm sure his idealism would be able to stand firm in the face of starvation, terrible disease, and man's inhumanity to man. Abortion is way worse than watching a actual children die a painful death of an easily-curable or -preventable disease, or babies die of hunger.
    There's no need for all of that. I'm thinking I'd just give him malaria, have him ride the bus to the hospital on a bumpy road, walk another mile to get there, and see how many times he throws before arriving.

    Elki on
    smCQ5WE.jpg
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    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited December 2006
    Promiscuity is absolutely one of the problems

    Actually, it isn't.

    Fencingsax on
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    sanstodosanstodo Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    i totally hear you. i tried (poorly) at the end of my original post to explain that i didnt think promiscuity was the MAIN/ONLY problem. my original post was just about the discussion on promiscuity. While I hadn't read every single post in this thread up until that point, a great deal was simply being "Gawd, why cant we just throw condoms at this problem, the church is s Stupis!" Promiscuity is absolutely one of the problems - even if it isnt the main one, and I was discussing my view on how to deal with that problem.

    I also think the other problems need solutions too, I just simply don't know, but totally want to hear ideas.

    Much of it isn't promiscuity in the sense that you and I use it. I think that's part of the problem with the way the Catholic Church is approaching the issue. Different cultures have different sexual mores and customs. They change slowly for concrete reasons; newly implanted metaphysical ones tend to lose out to traditional ones or to everyday urges. It's like to trying to apply the term "homosexual" to tribal semen rituals. It's a square peg for a round hole.

    If the Church focused on the largest problems facing Africa, then I'd have more sympathy. Rather, the Church is largely dealing with an ideologically selected issue that isn't a main factor in Africa's problems. Their failure to install their ideology and world view isn't a failed solution, to me, since abstinence isn't a solution that works to begin with (as evidenced by the entirety of the known world) in any society for the prevention of STDs. Whether or not you believe that in a perfect world, no one with STDs would have unsafe sex and people would never have sex except with the STD free person they marry, the world is what it is. Solutions must be tailored to be both practical and effective. The Church is trying to solve a huge problem with an idea that is both impractical and ineffective.

    sanstodo on
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    The Big ShingThe Big Shing Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    Fencingsax wrote:
    Promiscuity is absolutely one of the problems

    Actually, it isn't.

    so the married people who get std's from prostitutes and give them to their wives arnt spreading aids? awesome!

    The Big Shing on
    Yeoldemapmaker.com = my sweet flash site where you can design and print DnD maps for free directly from browser.
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    LadyMLadyM Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    I do feel that abstinence should be encouraged and that people should be educated about how HIV spreads through sexual contact with infected partners. But abstinence alone isn't going to solve the problem, human nature being what it is.

    Also, in some communities men have multiple wives. So even if Wife #1, #2, and #3 are faithful, if the guy goes out and bones a prostitute and comes back with HIV, that isn't going to help them. Condoms would be pretty damn useful for them. (Sidenote: I was looking at the Heifer Project's website and that actually happened . . . Husband got HIV, infected his three wives, husband and two wives died of AIDS, remaining HIV positive wife was left to care for eleven children. Horrible.)

    Unfortunately, according to Wiki in some parts of Africa condoms are regarded as a way for Westerners to control Africans by lowering the African birth rates, thus allowing the more populous Westerners to do what they will. Oy . . .

    LadyM on
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    Whiniest Man On EarthWhiniest Man On Earth Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    It would be awesome if this thread could demonize cheating husbands and prostitution a bit more.

    Whiniest Man On Earth on
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    FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited December 2006
    The simple fact is that if people only had sex with their when they were married, and only with who they were married to (as the church teaches) there would be no STDs.

    If candy and ice cream fell from the sky there would be no starvation.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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    ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    I look at Africa, and it blows. It's completely awful that these people have to live in pain and die prematurely, but I'm sure as hell not going to set that country on the path America took. As sick as it sounds, people in Africa atleast get to live, where in my country one of our biggest problems is people dying before they are even born, before they even get a chance to do something besides grow.
    This is also ridiculously fucking stupid because the infant mortality rate in most African countries is huge compared to that of the U.S. Libya, which, as far as I can tell, has the lowest rate of anywhere in mainland Africa, is at nearly 24 deaths per live birth, versus the U.S.' 6. Keep in mind I really doubt Libya is counting a miscarriage at 22 weeks in that figure, like the U.S. generally does. And the highest is Angola, at 185 deaths per 1,000 live births. Africa holds four of the top five, and eight of the top ten rates in infant mortality, all over 100 deaths per 1,000 live births.

    The fact that Christians in this country consistently argue against giving these countries the sort of help that they desperately need sickens me, and shows them to be the hypocrites they really are.

    Thanatos on
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    The Big ShingThe Big Shing Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    Sanstodo, I can understand what you are saying, and thanks for really trying to explain to me the non-catholic view. I'm just the type of person that has to aim for that perfect world, because I dont see any other point.
    LadyM wrote:
    Unfortunately, according to Wiki in some parts of Africa condoms are regarded as a way for Westerners to control Africans by lowering the African birth rates, thus allowing the more populous Westerners to do what they will. Oy . . .

    and thats the first time ive heard that. that's crazy. Is there any reason for them to think this way?

    The Big Shing on
    Yeoldemapmaker.com = my sweet flash site where you can design and print DnD maps for free directly from browser.
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    ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited December 2006
    Thanatos wrote:
    I look at Africa, and it blows. It's completely awful that these people have to live in pain and die prematurely, but I'm sure as hell not going to set that country on the path America took. As sick as it sounds, people in Africa atleast get to live, where in my country one of our biggest problems is people dying before they are even born, before they even get a chance to do something besides grow.
    This is also ridiculously fucking stupid because the infant mortality rate in most African countries is huge compared to that of the U.S. Libya, which, as far as I can tell, has the lowest rate of anywhere in mainland Africa, is at nearly 24 deaths per live birth, versus the U.S.' 6. Keep in mind I really doubt Libya is counting a miscarriage at 22 weeks in that figure, like the U.S. generally does. And the highest is Angola, at 185 deaths per 1,000 live births. Africa holds four of the top five, and eight of the top ten rates in infant mortality, all over 100 deaths per 1,000 live births.

    The fact that Christians in this country consistently argue against giving these countries the sort of help that they desperately need sickens me, and shows them to be the hypocrites they really are.
    But all those kids weren't murdered!

    Elki on
    smCQ5WE.jpg
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    ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    Sanstodo, I can understand what you are saying, and thanks for really trying to explain to me the non-catholic view. I'm just the type of person that has to aim for that perfect world, because I dont see any other point.
    There's nothing wrong with aiming for a perfect world. However, sacrificing "much, much better" in the name of "perfect" is fucking retarded.
    LadyM wrote:
    Unfortunately, according to Wiki in some parts of Africa condoms are regarded as a way for Westerners to control Africans by lowering the African birth rates, thus allowing the more populous Westerners to do what they will. Oy . . .
    and thats the first time ive heard that. that's crazy. Is there any reason for them to think this way?
    Being repeatedly fucked over by the Western World, generation after generation?

    Thanatos on
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    LadyMLadyM Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    Thanatos wrote:
    Sanstodo, I can understand what you are saying, and thanks for really trying to explain to me the non-catholic view. I'm just the type of person that has to aim for that perfect world, because I dont see any other point.
    There's nothing wrong with aiming for a perfect world. However, sacrificing "much, much better" in the name of "perfect" is fucking retarded.
    LadyM wrote:
    Unfortunately, according to Wiki in some parts of Africa condoms are regarded as a way for Westerners to control Africans by lowering the African birth rates, thus allowing the more populous Westerners to do what they will. Oy . . .
    and thats the first time ive heard that. that's crazy. Is there any reason for them to think this way?
    Being repeatedly fucked over by the Western World, generation after generation?

    That would be my guess. Here's the quote. It's from this article.
    Furthermore, in Southern Africa there is widespread denial that HIV does in fact cause AIDS. Thabo Mbeki and Robert Mugabe have both propounded the theory that AIDS in fact stems from poverty rather than HIV infection. In addition, many Africans have rejected the use of condoms because of concerns that the intentions of those who urge their usage is to limit the growth of the African population.

    Edit: On a sidenote, you may have heard hubbub a while back about Sesame Street having, ZOMG, an HIV positive Muppet. IIRC, some religious groups thought the purpose of said Muppet was to promote gayness. In actuality, it was only in the South African version of Sesame Street, where HIV-infected people are highly stigmatized, despite the fact that one in nine people has HIV. They were trying to disassemble the stereotype, basically.

    LadyM on
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    bone daddybone daddy Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited December 2006
    Thanatos wrote:
    And the highest is Angola, at 185 deaths per 1,000 live births.
    Holy shit.

    bone daddy on
    Rogue helicopter?
    Ecoterrorism is actually the single largest terrorist threat at the moment. They don't usually kill people, but they blow up or set on fire very expensive things.
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    The Big ShingThe Big Shing Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    Thanatos wrote:
    I look at Africa, and it blows. It's completely awful that these people have to live in pain and die prematurely, but I'm sure as hell not going to set that country on the path America took. As sick as it sounds, people in Africa atleast get to live, where in my country one of our biggest problems is people dying before they are even born, before they even get a chance to do something besides grow.
    This is also ridiculously fucking stupid because the infant mortality rate in most African countries is huge compared to that of the U.S. Libya, which, as far as I can tell, has the lowest rate of anywhere in mainland Africa, is at nearly 24 deaths per live birth, versus the U.S.' 6. Keep in mind I really doubt Libya is counting a miscarriage at 22 weeks in that figure, like the U.S. generally does. And the highest is Angola, at 185 deaths per 1,000 live births. Africa holds four of the top five, and eight of the top ten rates in infant mortality, all over 100 deaths per 1,000 live births.

    The fact that Christians in this country consistently argue against giving these countries the sort of help that they desperately need sickens me, and shows them to be the hypocrites they really are.

    I was talking about abortions in the US not infant mortality rates. There have been anywhere from 20 million to 40 million abortions in the US since Row V Wade depending on who you talk to. Death is death, with Africa we simply dont have the luxery of pretending it doesnt exist. It's right in front of our face. Like i said, I don't want to put Africa on the same path as America, people will still being dying.

    The Big Shing on
    Yeoldemapmaker.com = my sweet flash site where you can design and print DnD maps for free directly from browser.
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    JohannenJohannen Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    Thanatos wrote:
    I look at Africa, and it blows. It's completely awful that these people have to live in pain and die prematurely, but I'm sure as hell not going to set that country on the path America took. As sick as it sounds, people in Africa atleast get to live, where in my country one of our biggest problems is people dying before they are even born, before they even get a chance to do something besides grow.
    This is also ridiculously fucking stupid because the infant mortality rate in most African countries is huge compared to that of the U.S. Libya, which, as far as I can tell, has the lowest rate of anywhere in mainland Africa, is at nearly 24 deaths per live birth, versus the U.S.' 6. Keep in mind I really doubt Libya is counting a miscarriage at 22 weeks in that figure, like the U.S. generally does. And the highest is Angola, at 185 deaths per 1,000 live births. Africa holds four of the top five, and eight of the top ten rates in infant mortality, all over 100 deaths per 1,000 live births.

    The fact that Christians in this country consistently argue against giving these countries the sort of help that they desperately need sickens me, and shows them to be the hypocrites they really are.

    I was talking about abortions in the US not infant mortality rates. There have been anywhere from 20 million to 40 million abortions in the US since Row V Wade depending on who you talk to. Death is death, with Africa we simply dont have the luxery of pretending it doesnt exist. It's right in front of our face. Like i said, I don't want to put Africa on the same path as America, people will still being dying.

    I think I just got dumber after reading this.

    EDIT: Dammit! Now my IQ's the same as Steven Hawkins!! :P

    Johannen on
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    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited December 2006
    Thanatos wrote:
    I look at Africa, and it blows. It's completely awful that these people have to live in pain and die prematurely, but I'm sure as hell not going to set that country on the path America took. As sick as it sounds, people in Africa atleast get to live, where in my country one of our biggest problems is people dying before they are even born, before they even get a chance to do something besides grow.
    This is also ridiculously fucking stupid because the infant mortality rate in most African countries is huge compared to that of the U.S. Libya, which, as far as I can tell, has the lowest rate of anywhere in mainland Africa, is at nearly 24 deaths per live birth, versus the U.S.' 6. Keep in mind I really doubt Libya is counting a miscarriage at 22 weeks in that figure, like the U.S. generally does. And the highest is Angola, at 185 deaths per 1,000 live births. Africa holds four of the top five, and eight of the top ten rates in infant mortality, all over 100 deaths per 1,000 live births.

    The fact that Christians in this country consistently argue against giving these countries the sort of help that they desperately need sickens me, and shows them to be the hypocrites they really are.

    I was talking about abortions in the US not infant mortality rates. There have been anywhere from 20 million to 40 million abortions in the US since Row V Wade depending on who you talk to. Death is death, with Africa we simply dont have the luxery of pretending it doesnt exist. It's right in front of our face. Like i said, I don't want to put Africa on the same path as America, people will still being dying.

    THE POINT IS THAT CHILDREN AND BABIES ARE DYING FROM DISEASES THAT ARE CURABLE. THIS IS NOT A GOOD THING. IN FACT, IT IS A VERY BAD THING.

    Fencingsax on
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    electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    Thanatos wrote:
    I look at Africa, and it blows. It's completely awful that these people have to live in pain and die prematurely, but I'm sure as hell not going to set that country on the path America took. As sick as it sounds, people in Africa atleast get to live, where in my country one of our biggest problems is people dying before they are even born, before they even get a chance to do something besides grow.
    This is also ridiculously fucking stupid because the infant mortality rate in most African countries is huge compared to that of the U.S. Libya, which, as far as I can tell, has the lowest rate of anywhere in mainland Africa, is at nearly 24 deaths per live birth, versus the U.S.' 6. Keep in mind I really doubt Libya is counting a miscarriage at 22 weeks in that figure, like the U.S. generally does. And the highest is Angola, at 185 deaths per 1,000 live births. Africa holds four of the top five, and eight of the top ten rates in infant mortality, all over 100 deaths per 1,000 live births.

    The fact that Christians in this country consistently argue against giving these countries the sort of help that they desperately need sickens me, and shows them to be the hypocrites they really are.

    I was talking about abortions in the US not infant mortality rates. There have been anywhere from 20 million to 40 million abortions in the US since Row V Wade depending on who you talk to. Death is death, with Africa we simply dont have the luxery of pretending it doesnt exist. It's right in front of our face. Like i said, I don't want to put Africa on the same path as America, people will still being dying.
    We know, we got it, we were calling you an idiot and a fucktard as a response.

    electricitylikesme on
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    BlackjackBlackjack Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    Thanatos wrote:
    I look at Africa, and it blows. It's completely awful that these people have to live in pain and die prematurely, but I'm sure as hell not going to set that country on the path America took. As sick as it sounds, people in Africa atleast get to live, where in my country one of our biggest problems is people dying before they are even born, before they even get a chance to do something besides grow.
    This is also ridiculously fucking stupid because the infant mortality rate in most African countries is huge compared to that of the U.S. Libya, which, as far as I can tell, has the lowest rate of anywhere in mainland Africa, is at nearly 24 deaths per live birth, versus the U.S.' 6. Keep in mind I really doubt Libya is counting a miscarriage at 22 weeks in that figure, like the U.S. generally does. And the highest is Angola, at 185 deaths per 1,000 live births. Africa holds four of the top five, and eight of the top ten rates in infant mortality, all over 100 deaths per 1,000 live births.

    The fact that Christians in this country consistently argue against giving these countries the sort of help that they desperately need sickens me, and shows them to be the hypocrites they really are.

    I was talking about abortions in the US not infant mortality rates. There have been anywhere from 20 million to 40 million abortions in the US since Row V Wade depending on who you talk to. Death is death, with Africa we simply dont have the luxery of pretending it doesnt exist. It's right in front of our face. Like i said, I don't want to put Africa on the same path as America, people will still being dying.

    I think we don't need an abortion debate in this thread.

    Surely the fact that millions upon millions of people are suffering and dying from a disease could be seen as something worth trying to stop, right? No matter if you are pro-choice or pro-life.

    Right?

    Blackjack on
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    3DS: 1607-3034-6970
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    LadyMLadyM Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    I was talking about abortions in the US not infant mortality rates. There have been anywhere from 20 million to 40 million abortions in the US since Row V Wade depending on who you talk to. Death is death, with Africa we simply dont have the luxery of pretending it doesnt exist. It's right in front of our face. Like i said, I don't want to put Africa on the same path as America, people will still being dying.

    Theologically speaking, unborn babies never have a chance to sin and thus go straight to heaven. (Jesus' sacrifice wipes out their Original Sin or somesuch, in Catholic theology at least.) Don't think of it as killing babies . . . think of it as saving souls.

    In all seriousness, is it hard to understand that condoms that prevent the spread of HIV will save the lives of kids who otherwise would have died? Or do you just not give a damn about babies after they exit the womb?

    LadyM on
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    The Big ShingThe Big Shing Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    Blackjack wrote:
    Thanatos wrote:
    I look at Africa, and it blows. It's completely awful that these people have to live in pain and die prematurely, but I'm sure as hell not going to set that country on the path America took. As sick as it sounds, people in Africa atleast get to live, where in my country one of our biggest problems is people dying before they are even born, before they even get a chance to do something besides grow.
    This is also ridiculously fucking stupid because the infant mortality rate in most African countries is huge compared to that of the U.S. Libya, which, as far as I can tell, has the lowest rate of anywhere in mainland Africa, is at nearly 24 deaths per live birth, versus the U.S.' 6. Keep in mind I really doubt Libya is counting a miscarriage at 22 weeks in that figure, like the U.S. generally does. And the highest is Angola, at 185 deaths per 1,000 live births. Africa holds four of the top five, and eight of the top ten rates in infant mortality, all over 100 deaths per 1,000 live births.

    The fact that Christians in this country consistently argue against giving these countries the sort of help that they desperately need sickens me, and shows them to be the hypocrites they really are.

    I was talking about abortions in the US not infant mortality rates. There have been anywhere from 20 million to 40 million abortions in the US since Row V Wade depending on who you talk to. Death is death, with Africa we simply dont have the luxery of pretending it doesnt exist. It's right in front of our face. Like i said, I don't want to put Africa on the same path as America, people will still being dying.

    I think we don't need an abortion debate in this thread.

    Surely the fact that millions upon millions of people are suffering and dying from a disease could be seen as something worth trying to stop, right? No matter if you are pro-choice or pro-life.

    Right?

    absolutely. this threads never been about whether to help or not, just on how.

    The Big Shing on
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    The Big ShingThe Big Shing Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    LadyM wrote:
    I was talking about abortions in the US not infant mortality rates. There have been anywhere from 20 million to 40 million abortions in the US since Row V Wade depending on who you talk to. Death is death, with Africa we simply dont have the luxery of pretending it doesnt exist. It's right in front of our face. Like i said, I don't want to put Africa on the same path as America, people will still being dying.

    Theologically speaking, unborn babies never have a chance to sin and thus go straight to heaven. (Jesus' sacrifice wipes out their Original Sin or somesuch, in Catholic theology at least.) Don't think of it as killing babies . . . think of it as saving souls.

    In all seriousness, is it hard to understand that condoms that prevent the spread of HIV will save the lives of kids who otherwise would have died? Or do you just not give a damn about babies after they exit the womb?

    huh? unless i missed a huge memo condoms cant prevent the transmission HIV and not semen. In your example the kid would not be born without AIDs, but just not be born...

    if this ends up being a double post, sorry :(

    The Big Shing on
    Yeoldemapmaker.com = my sweet flash site where you can design and print DnD maps for free directly from browser.
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    redxredx I(x)=2(x)+1 whole numbersRegistered User regular
    edited December 2006
    LadyM wrote:
    I was talking about abortions in the US not infant mortality rates. There have been anywhere from 20 million to 40 million abortions in the US since Row V Wade depending on who you talk to. Death is death, with Africa we simply dont have the luxery of pretending it doesnt exist. It's right in front of our face. Like i said, I don't want to put Africa on the same path as America, people will still being dying.

    Theologically speaking, unborn babies never have a chance to sin and thus go straight to heaven. (Jesus' sacrifice wipes out their Original Sin or somesuch, in Catholic theology at least.) Don't think of it as killing babies . . . think of it as saving souls.

    In all seriousness, is it hard to understand that condoms that prevent the spread of HIV will save the lives of kids who otherwise would have died? Or do you just not give a damn about babies after they exit the womb?

    huh? unless i missed a huge memo condoms cant prevent the transmission HIV and not semen. In your example the kid would not be born without AIDs, but just not be born...

    if this ends up being a double post, sorry :(

    umm... people can selectively wear condoms. So, they can prevent the spread AIDS from fornication and not affect procreation.

    redx on
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    RustRust __BANNED USERS regular
    edited December 2006
    Post edited because of another dozen posts coming up while I typed. This seems to happen a lot.

    Rust on
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    FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    edited December 2006
    huh? unless i missed a huge memo condoms cant prevent the transmission HIV and not semen. In your example the kid would not be born without AIDs, but just not be born...

    Are you saying you'd rather a child be born with AIDS than not be conceived at all?

    Feral on
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    werehippywerehippy Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    LadyM wrote:
    I was talking about abortions in the US not infant mortality rates. There have been anywhere from 20 million to 40 million abortions in the US since Row V Wade depending on who you talk to. Death is death, with Africa we simply dont have the luxery of pretending it doesnt exist. It's right in front of our face. Like i said, I don't want to put Africa on the same path as America, people will still being dying.

    Theologically speaking, unborn babies never have a chance to sin and thus go straight to heaven. (Jesus' sacrifice wipes out their Original Sin or somesuch, in Catholic theology at least.) Don't think of it as killing babies . . . think of it as saving souls.

    In all seriousness, is it hard to understand that condoms that prevent the spread of HIV will save the lives of kids who otherwise would have died? Or do you just not give a damn about babies after they exit the womb?

    huh? unless i missed a huge memo condoms cant prevent the transmission HIV and not semen. In your example the kid would not be born without AIDs, but just not be born...

    if this ends up being a double post, sorry :(

    Congratulations, you win at life!

    You just equated the lose of a sperm that doesn't fertilize an egg with a lifetime of famine, suffering, and disease. You are absolutely correct, we must stop the use of condoms, because of the trillions of merciless sperm killings it would lead to. Who gives a shit if it's solve vast swaths of problems in a vastly trouble region, think of the single celled organisms that would die!

    Fucking dumbass.

    werehippy on
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    LadyMLadyM Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    Abstinence would prevent the theoretical child from being born just as effectively as a condom. If a condom "destroys a potential child" or whatever the theory is, then so does abstinence.

    No sperm meeting egg = no child.

    Cue the Life of Brian song!

    LadyM on
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    The Big ShingThe Big Shing Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    Feral wrote:
    huh? unless i missed a huge memo condoms cant prevent the transmission HIV and not semen. In your example the kid would not be born without AIDs, but just not be born...

    Are you saying you'd rather a child be born with AIDS than not be conceived at all?

    i was trying to point out that her example doesnt make sense. Though I do understand that the overall use of condoms may eventually slow down the disease enough that people could be born without Aids, as what redx said.

    no im not for people being born with aids, i still live in that fantasy world where people shouldnt want to concieve a child knowing what it would be like for them.

    edit: and thus choose not to have sex. (let alone from the fact you'd be infecting your partner). But I think at this we've come full circle and are back at the "its natural for humanity to be fuck muppets" arguement. So yea, I wasn't trying to change all your minds on the issue, just posting a different view. I do thank those that actually respond with more than just "hey dipshit ur stupid".believe it or not i did learn somethings :P . i don't claim to know everything about africa and aids, but i do have a stance on the issue of promiscuity, and thats what the topic was about (Atleast partially)

    The Big Shing on
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    TachTach Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    LadyM wrote:
    Abstinence would prevent the theoretical child from being born just as effectively as a condom. If a condom "destroys a potential child" or whatever the theory is, then so does abstinence.

    No sperm meeting egg = no child.

    Cue the Life of Brian song!

    #1- I'm pretty sure that they only consider every sperm sacred if you're spilling it. Not doing the horizontal mambo isn't preventing a potential child to them...

    #2- It was The Meaning of Life.

    Tach on
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    ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    Thanatos wrote:
    I look at Africa, and it blows. It's completely awful that these people have to live in pain and die prematurely, but I'm sure as hell not going to set that country on the path America took. As sick as it sounds, people in Africa atleast get to live, where in my country one of our biggest problems is people dying before they are even born, before they even get a chance to do something besides grow.
    This is also ridiculously fucking stupid because the infant mortality rate in most African countries is huge compared to that of the U.S. Libya, which, as far as I can tell, has the lowest rate of anywhere in mainland Africa, is at nearly 24 deaths per live birth, versus the U.S.' 6. Keep in mind I really doubt Libya is counting a miscarriage at 22 weeks in that figure, like the U.S. generally does. And the highest is Angola, at 185 deaths per 1,000 live births. Africa holds four of the top five, and eight of the top ten rates in infant mortality, all over 100 deaths per 1,000 live births.

    The fact that Christians in this country consistently argue against giving these countries the sort of help that they desperately need sickens me, and shows them to be the hypocrites they really are.
    I was talking about abortions in the US not infant mortality rates. There have been anywhere from 20 million to 40 million abortions in the US since Row V Wade depending on who you talk to. Death is death, with Africa we simply dont have the luxery of pretending it doesnt exist. It's right in front of our face. Like i said, I don't want to put Africa on the same path as America, people will still being dying.
    Okay, population of Africa in 2000 was 812 million. Extrapolating birth rates ranging from 14 per 1000 population up to 50 per 1000 population from 2005 (weighted very heavily towards the high end), we can guesstimate a conservative average birth rate of about 35 per 1000 population. Multiply that out, and it's about 28,420,000 births in Africa in 2000. We'll lowball a conservative average infant mortality rate of 50 per 1,000 live births, and we get 1,421,000 deaths in 2000 alone. We do the same for 2005, where the population was over 900,000,000, and we get 1,583,570. Now, we can do this for every year going back 35 years, or we can just say that, based on the fact that infant mortality in Africa was really bad when Roe v. Wade went down, then got somewhat better, then got worse (due primarily to AIDS infections), we call it an average of 1.2 million a year since then. That puts the infant mortality in Africa at about 42,000,000 since Roe v. Wade. Keep in mind I'm lowballing this, and it beats out the high end of whatever fundamentalist group you're getting your abortion numbers from.

    This is to say nothing of the under-5 child mortality rates, which add over half again as much to that. You also assume that every child that's aborted would have otherwise lived, which is very frequently not the case.

    Thanatos on
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    JohannenJohannen Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    werehippy wrote:
    LadyM wrote:
    I was talking about abortions in the US not infant mortality rates. There have been anywhere from 20 million to 40 million abortions in the US since Row V Wade depending on who you talk to. Death is death, with Africa we simply dont have the luxery of pretending it doesnt exist. It's right in front of our face. Like i said, I don't want to put Africa on the same path as America, people will still being dying.

    Theologically speaking, unborn babies never have a chance to sin and thus go straight to heaven. (Jesus' sacrifice wipes out their Original Sin or somesuch, in Catholic theology at least.) Don't think of it as killing babies . . . think of it as saving souls.

    In all seriousness, is it hard to understand that condoms that prevent the spread of HIV will save the lives of kids who otherwise would have died? Or do you just not give a damn about babies after they exit the womb?

    huh? unless i missed a huge memo condoms cant prevent the transmission HIV and not semen. In your example the kid would not be born without AIDs, but just not be born...

    if this ends up being a double post, sorry :(

    Congratulations, you win at life!

    You just equated the lose of a sperm that doesn't fertilize an egg with a lifetime of famine, suffering, and disease. You are absolutely correct, we must stop the use of condoms, because of the trillions of merciless sperm killings it would lead to. Who gives a shit if it's solve vast swaths of problems in a vastly trouble region, think of the single celled organisms that would die!

    Fucking dumbass.

    Holy shit! I'm a mass murderer at least 3 times a week!

    Johannen on
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    werehippywerehippy Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    Feral wrote:
    huh? unless i missed a huge memo condoms cant prevent the transmission HIV and not semen. In your example the kid would not be born without AIDs, but just not be born...

    Are you saying you'd rather a child be born with AIDS than not be conceived at all?

    i was trying to point out that her example doesnt make sense. Though I do understand that the overall use of condoms may eventually slow down the disease enough that people could be born without Aids, as what redx said.

    no im not for people being born with aids, i still live in that fantasy world where people shouldnt want to concieve a child knowing what it would be like for them.

    Because basing our decisions of the reality that we wished existed as opposed to the one that does has been so terribly successful in the past.

    You're welcome to try and sell whatever retarded lollipops and candy canes raining from the sky fantasy you believe in, once the situation isn't as close to hell on earth as we have. In the interim, all your insistence on your personal lunacy is doing is killing people and increasing the suffering inthe world.

    werehippy on
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    TroubledTomTroubledTom regular
    edited December 2006
    werehippy wrote:
    Feral wrote:
    huh? unless i missed a huge memo condoms cant prevent the transmission HIV and not semen. In your example the kid would not be born without AIDs, but just not be born...

    Are you saying you'd rather a child be born with AIDS than not be conceived at all?

    i was trying to point out that her example doesnt make sense. Though I do understand that the overall use of condoms may eventually slow down the disease enough that people could be born without Aids, as what redx said.

    no im not for people being born with aids, i still live in that fantasy world where people shouldnt want to concieve a child knowing what it would be like for them.


    A disease ridden Africa is a place where Angry Jesus can go and look compassionate. If they had more protection, there would be fewer souls to save.

    TroubledTom on
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    Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    edited December 2006
    "Tach wrote:
    #1- I'm pretty sure that they only consider every sperm sacred if you're spilling it. Not doing the horizontal mambo isn't preventing a potential child to them...

    #1. Two words: Wet Dream. Also, the verse they use for that reads more as a command not to neglect your obligations to me.

    Phoenix-D on
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    bone daddybone daddy Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited December 2006
    Thanatos wrote:
    snip
    But Thanatos, at least those dead infant-through-five-year-olds got a chance to live.

    bone daddy on
    Rogue helicopter?
    Ecoterrorism is actually the single largest terrorist threat at the moment. They don't usually kill people, but they blow up or set on fire very expensive things.
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