Ick, BoE items? They could at least make them BoA. Half the fun in D2 was acquiring weird gear and then sharing it with your alts. I didn't play D2 to spend all day in the trade chatrooms to get a starter set for a new alt.
You won't need to share it with alts because you won't need more than one Barb. You can respec his skills at any point.
That assumes (and I guess I've been out of the loop so maybe this is a nonissue) that there is no crossover gear at all. I was a big fan of things like bow-wielding enchantresses, x-bow druids, and throwing barbs, not to mention all the melee weapon crossover between assassins, pallies, and barbs as well as special effect or generally useful gear at the high levels.
With BoE gear, if you get bored of your decked out barb, you can't just shunt over his resist set or whatever to your pally like in D2. Hell, you can't even hawk it or trade it for new gear. Which means you not only have to level a new char but spend (probably the majority of) your time to reacquire all the gear you already got (or gear of equal or lesser worth from what you already have), from scratch.
D3 isn't an MMO, there isn't (afaik) a monthly fee, there's no reason for Bliz to force players to be strung along for months like that arbitrarily. D2 became much more fun to me when more of the exotic and powerful runewords came to be reasonably affordable... and that took years and several dupe epidemics to happen without locking out items after someone uses them once. And they're still somewhat costly.
Edit: @Jutranjo
Sorry, I meant starter end-game sets. The gear you use while you build up your arsenal of truly powerful and/or rare items.
Tag on
Overwatch: TomFoolery#1388 Black Desert: Family Name: Foolery. Characters: Tome & Beerserk.
(Retired) GW2 Characters (Fort Aspenwood): Roy Gee Biv
(Retired) Let's Play: Lone Wolf
Wasn't defense in D2 basically how often they can hit you?
Yeah, just like AC in part 1. Higher defense meant being hit less frequently by melee and physical ranged attacks. That used to confuse the shit out of me. It starts to get less useful when elemental damage is coming from like everything.
The only way to lower incoming damage was specific item prefix / suffixes. Other than that, vitality was a must.
Henroid on
0
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
Wasn't defense in D2 basically how often they can hit you?
Pretty much, but the formulas and numbers so assigned happen to mean that wearing a heavier armor had negligible benefit: therefore everyone, even barbarians and paladins, wear light "caster" armors.
Also, individual monster attacks often did well over 60% of a given character's hp, so a % to avoid a hit often meant a % not to die, which rather diminished the usefulness of defence.
ronya on
0
KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
edited August 2009
You have to wonder how much Blizzard was trying to court the crowd that tries to turn class-roles on their heads when they introduced skills like Enchant or Poison Dagger.
Wasn't defense in D2 basically how often they can hit you?
Precisely. Also, your armor drops to zero whenever you're not standing still.
Jesus jumped up Christ, are you serious?
No, he's right. Note that you can still block, but then you go into a blocking animation (the dreaded blocklock), and your block rate is reduced as well.
However, given that you're always standing still when attacking in Diablo II, this is only relevant when running away from a mob.
ronya on
0
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
Wasn't defense in D2 basically how often they can hit you?
Pretty much, but the formulas and numbers so assigned happen to mean that wearing a heavier armor had negligible benefit: therefore everyone, even barbarians and paladins, wear light "caster" armors.
Also, individual monster attacks often did well over 60% of a given character's hp, so a % to avoid a hit often meant a % not to die, which rather diminished the usefulness of defence.
Let's not forget that heavier armors dicked with your mobility and stamina. Which made the frequent temporary retreats harder to do.
On a side note about the formulas and numbers, somewhere along the line Blizzard North fucked up the character sheet where it doesn't display proper numbers in several places. Learning about that really cheesed me off. And it never got FIXED.
Ick, BoE items? They could at least make them BoA. Half the fun in D2 was acquiring weird gear and then sharing it with your alts. I didn't play D2 to spend all day in the trade chatrooms to get a starter set for a new alt.
The BOP is for level 85+ items only. It's a good compromise, since most twink items will probably be relatively worthless pretty quickly.
Ick, BoE items? They could at least make them BoA. Half the fun in D2 was acquiring weird gear and then sharing it with your alts. I didn't play D2 to spend all day in the trade chatrooms to get a starter set for a new alt.
The BOP is for level 85+ items only. It's a good compromise, since most twink items will probably be relatively worthless pretty quickly.
If there's anything I'll indefinitely give Blizzard, it's that when they come out with a sequel they simply aren't putting out "Game part 2 with prettier graphics and sound." They change the structure and mechanics of the game.
So, on that note, it's kinda funny when people see updates about Diablo 3 and apply it to the context of Diablo 2. It doesn't work that way.
You have to wonder how much Blizzard was trying to court the crowd that tries to turn class-roles on their heads when they introduced skills like Enchant or Poison Dagger.
Oh, those were there to begin with, when Blizzard still had hilariously wrong ideas about how Diablo II would really be played. They honestly thought someone might sink points into Enchant solely for team play, for instance. This was all before synergies, so skill points were less important, but still.
Talking about synergies - if you want to know when Blizzard started to court that crowd, it's with "oskills" - permanent bonuses to formerly class-specific skills. Like Teleport, Zeal, Battle Orders, Werebear. Then all the items with high-level auras when equipped and such.
Wasn't defense in D2 basically how often they can hit you?
Precisely. Also, your armor drops to zero whenever you're not standing still.
I may be wrong but I thought armor was 0 only when running as opposed to walking.
alset85 on
override said: I can't wait until Toady causes pressurized water to be able to actually damage things. I want to hit goblins with a shit cannon of such pressure that the meat is ripped from their bones
I think BoE items will be great. It means high-end items can be valuable without resorting to ridiculously low drop rates like in D2.
I hope D3 gets a built in auction system similar to the one in WoW, that would make trading much more accessible to people who don't want to read internet guides to figure out what all items are worth.
Ollibolli on
0
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
Y'know, the fact this is the case isn't what makes me bothered by it. What makes me annoyed is that this information was not presented to us by Blizzard in an easy-to-find manner in the game. Like a tooltip or something. Instead other people have to find this out and pass it on along the grapevine.
It's one more thing to hold against the former Blizzard North guys.
Wasn't defense in D2 basically how often they can hit you?
Pretty much, but the formulas and numbers so assigned happen to mean that wearing a heavier armor had negligible benefit: therefore everyone, even barbarians and paladins, wear light "caster" armors.
Also, individual monster attacks often did well over 60% of a given character's hp, so a % to avoid a hit often meant a % not to die, which rather diminished the usefulness of defence.
Let's not forget that heavier armors dicked with your mobility and stamina. Which made the frequent temporary retreats harder to do.
On a side note about the formulas and numbers, somewhere along the line Blizzard North fucked up the character sheet where it doesn't display proper numbers in several places. Learning about that really cheesed me off. And it never got FIXED.
It's called the Lying Character Screen for a reason! Fun fact: the only stats on it that appear to be correct is the block rate, level, and experience gained. Virtually everything else on it - even the character name - is subject to bugs and outdated formulae. Damage and attack rating are the worst, since they all got changed in later patches and the LCS was never updated. Resistances have the Anya bug, of course. Good times.
ronya on
0
KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
edited August 2009
I hope they keep the Horadric Cube or something like it - I took a weird kind of glee in collecting not-so-valuable items and turning them into valuable items.
Well, so long as it isn't as hugely BoP as WoW is.
Though the news of BoE, as inevitable as it is, is still rather disheartening to me personally.
Far as they've told us, nothing is BoP yet.
BoE is simply to prevent the massive item inflation, where everyone can have anything and everything for the right price. Think how valuable end game D2 gear is now. Now imagine how valuable that stuff would be if it could only ever be equipped to one character.
I hope they keep the Horadric Cube or something like it - I took a weird kind of glee in collecting not-so-valuable items and turning them into valuable items.
Pretty sure they said a while ago that we'd be getting another Cube (Horadric or otherwise).
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
To benefit from defense you must walk, stand, or attack.
I've played this game to death, and I never knew that. Who walks? For reals.
This is gonna sound like heresy, but it was stuff like that that made the game feel broken at times. No damage reduction from defense, just whether or not you get hit. That always seemed backwards to me as well.
El Guaco on
0
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
To benefit from defense you must walk, stand, or attack.
I've played this game to death, and I never knew that. Who walks? For reals.
This is gonna sound like heresy, but it was stuff like that that made the game feel broken at times. No damage reduction from defense, just whether or not you get hit. That always seemed backwards to me as well.
I dunno about that. If you think about it, armor does prevent damage to a person. In the context of how the game is played, it makes sense to have defense be an avoidance instead of a reduction. If some runt hits your plate armor with a sword, you're not hurt.
In that same example, henroid, someone who hits you with a two-handed mace will still hurt you, but the armor you're wearing reduces the damage you take.
If anything, the evasion stat should have some modifier based on your armor/defense. Defense stat should be about damage reduction, since Evasion, Block, Dodge, and Avoid are already there to deal with the "attacks not hitting you" portion of defensive stats.
Kasanagi on
0
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
edited August 2009
Well, evasion / avoid / dodge all implies you moving out of the way. Not possible with heavy armor. Unless you're like a super hero.
Okay, so armor should provide damage reduction. But it should do so to a point where it negates damage sources. Let's not try to invent what tradeoffs that would have to give.
I think BoE items will be great. It means high-end items can be valuable without resorting to ridiculously low drop rates like in D2.
I hope D3 gets a built in auction system similar to the one in WoW, that would make trading much more accessible to people who don't want to read internet guides to figure out what all items are worth.
A friendly and understandable trading system would be a great boost to Diablo 3. Bind on Equip however seems completely at odds with what Diablo has been about till now. Quest items that bind, sure, whatever, but never the good/best stuff.
I think it should go:
Highest quality rares>Uniques=great set items>good rares> set items>quest items=magic items.
I liked the "cruel" system as well, making fairly common items have a chance to be excellent.
Making items bind one equip completely changes how often the slot machine pays out which can lead to many fundamental changes to Diablo's unique item appeal. Much lower highs and more even lows can just leave you with apathy.
With stats you still had the chance to make whatever skill choice you wanted. On top of that you basically had the chance to wear whatever armor/weapon/shield/etc that you wanted. So removing stats (and thus removing the ability to wear any of the armor/weapon/shield/etc that you wanted) basically removes a lot of the customization that I loved about D2.
But how many of those were viable (at least as equally effective as a class that wasn't trying to fit a round peg into a square hole) and how many of them were simply tests of either superhuman patience or attempting to break something?
It's pretty funny, but nearly all the current high-end cookie-cutter builds (hammerdins, lightning sorceresses, lightning javazons) are only high-end now because Blizzard decided to create cross-class skills and aura items. The only high-end build that's remained true-to-class is the smiter (who, even then, almost always uses Dracul's Grasp or Exile for the chance to cast the Necromancer's Life Tap).
It is dubious whether the current state of affairs is desirable, or a necessary consequence of this design decision, but it is certainly true that Blizzard intended to encourage cross-class characters in Diablo II and certainly succeeded into doing so. Overwhelmingly.
Runewords were, of course, introduced precisely because they permitted stat-based customization...
completely at odds with what Diablo has been about till now.
Oh? Tell me what Diablo is about!
Me starting to think about trading something cool for something else then deciding not to even bother because you need 45 of them minimum for anything else cool because duping and insanely efficient item runs are common.
Making items bind one equip completely changes how often the slot machine pays out which can lead to many fundamental changes to Diablo's unique item appeal.
"Bind on equip" means you can pick up and item and trade it, sell it, give it away, etc. as long as you don't use it on your character. That has ZERO to do with the drop rate of an item.
El Guaco on
0
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
Making items bind one equip completely changes how often the slot machine pays out which can lead to many fundamental changes to Diablo's unique item appeal.
"Bind on equip" means you can pick up and item and trade it, sell it, give it away, etc. as long as you don't use it on your character. That has ZERO to do with the drop rate of an item.
Well, the fact that items are removed from the economy when equipped means that Blizzard doesn't have to make the cool/rare items quite as rare as they are in D2 and still have them hold value. If that means the awesome items are more likely to drop while still being valuable, sign me up.
Also they could easily cut down on the "SHIT I RIGHT-CLICKED, I DIDN'T WANT TO EQUIP THAT NOOOOO!" factor by adding a confirmation when you equip BoE items.
Any Bind on items should be bound to the account, not the characters.
And this would stimulate trade value how?
Who said anything about trade value? I just don't want test out my staff barbarian build with an awesome staff to find out it's terrible and now I can never swap that staff over to my monk.
Posts
That assumes (and I guess I've been out of the loop so maybe this is a nonissue) that there is no crossover gear at all. I was a big fan of things like bow-wielding enchantresses, x-bow druids, and throwing barbs, not to mention all the melee weapon crossover between assassins, pallies, and barbs as well as special effect or generally useful gear at the high levels.
With BoE gear, if you get bored of your decked out barb, you can't just shunt over his resist set or whatever to your pally like in D2. Hell, you can't even hawk it or trade it for new gear. Which means you not only have to level a new char but spend (probably the majority of) your time to reacquire all the gear you already got (or gear of equal or lesser worth from what you already have), from scratch.
D3 isn't an MMO, there isn't (afaik) a monthly fee, there's no reason for Bliz to force players to be strung along for months like that arbitrarily. D2 became much more fun to me when more of the exotic and powerful runewords came to be reasonably affordable... and that took years and several dupe epidemics to happen without locking out items after someone uses them once. And they're still somewhat costly.
Edit:
@Jutranjo
Sorry, I meant starter end-game sets. The gear you use while you build up your arsenal of truly powerful and/or rare items.
Black Desert: Family Name: Foolery. Characters: Tome & Beerserk.
(Retired) GW2 Characters (Fort Aspenwood): Roy Gee Biv
(Retired) Let's Play: Lone Wolf
Precisely. Also, your armor drops to zero whenever you're not standing still.
Yeah, just like AC in part 1. Higher defense meant being hit less frequently by melee and physical ranged attacks. That used to confuse the shit out of me. It starts to get less useful when elemental damage is coming from like everything.
The only way to lower incoming damage was specific item prefix / suffixes. Other than that, vitality was a must.
Jesus jumped up Christ, are you serious?
Pretty much, but the formulas and numbers so assigned happen to mean that wearing a heavier armor had negligible benefit: therefore everyone, even barbarians and paladins, wear light "caster" armors.
Also, individual monster attacks often did well over 60% of a given character's hp, so a % to avoid a hit often meant a % not to die, which rather diminished the usefulness of defence.
No, he's right. Note that you can still block, but then you go into a blocking animation (the dreaded blocklock), and your block rate is reduced as well.
However, given that you're always standing still when attacking in Diablo II, this is only relevant when running away from a mob.
Let's not forget that heavier armors dicked with your mobility and stamina. Which made the frequent temporary retreats harder to do.
On a side note about the formulas and numbers, somewhere along the line Blizzard North fucked up the character sheet where it doesn't display proper numbers in several places. Learning about that really cheesed me off. And it never got FIXED.
The BOP is for level 85+ items only. It's a good compromise, since most twink items will probably be relatively worthless pretty quickly.
I never understood why they insisted on keeping this mechanic.
http://diablo2.diablowiki.net/Defense_101
Apparently that's not exactly the case, but it's something like that. This is honestly the first time I'm looking it up.
Also, your block chance drops by 66% while running.
http://classic.battle.net/diablo2exp/basics/characters.shtml
If there's anything I'll indefinitely give Blizzard, it's that when they come out with a sequel they simply aren't putting out "Game part 2 with prettier graphics and sound." They change the structure and mechanics of the game.
So, on that note, it's kinda funny when people see updates about Diablo 3 and apply it to the context of Diablo 2. It doesn't work that way.
Oh, those were there to begin with, when Blizzard still had hilariously wrong ideas about how Diablo II would really be played. They honestly thought someone might sink points into Enchant solely for team play, for instance. This was all before synergies, so skill points were less important, but still.
Talking about synergies - if you want to know when Blizzard started to court that crowd, it's with "oskills" - permanent bonuses to formerly class-specific skills. Like Teleport, Zeal, Battle Orders, Werebear. Then all the items with high-level auras when equipped and such.
I may be wrong but I thought armor was 0 only when running as opposed to walking.
Steam ID
I hope D3 gets a built in auction system similar to the one in WoW, that would make trading much more accessible to people who don't want to read internet guides to figure out what all items are worth.
Y'know, the fact this is the case isn't what makes me bothered by it. What makes me annoyed is that this information was not presented to us by Blizzard in an easy-to-find manner in the game. Like a tooltip or something. Instead other people have to find this out and pass it on along the grapevine.
It's one more thing to hold against the former Blizzard North guys.
Yep, that's what the internet says. My mistake, originally it was just hearsay on my part.
It's called the Lying Character Screen for a reason! Fun fact: the only stats on it that appear to be correct is the block rate, level, and experience gained. Virtually everything else on it - even the character name - is subject to bugs and outdated formulae. Damage and attack rating are the worst, since they all got changed in later patches and the LCS was never updated. Resistances have the Anya bug, of course. Good times.
Far as they've told us, nothing is BoP yet.
BoE is simply to prevent the massive item inflation, where everyone can have anything and everything for the right price. Think how valuable end game D2 gear is now. Now imagine how valuable that stuff would be if it could only ever be equipped to one character.
Pretty sure they said a while ago that we'd be getting another Cube (Horadric or otherwise).
I've played this game to death, and I never knew that. Who walks? For reals.
This is gonna sound like heresy, but it was stuff like that that made the game feel broken at times. No damage reduction from defense, just whether or not you get hit. That always seemed backwards to me as well.
I dunno about that. If you think about it, armor does prevent damage to a person. In the context of how the game is played, it makes sense to have defense be an avoidance instead of a reduction. If some runt hits your plate armor with a sword, you're not hurt.
If anything, the evasion stat should have some modifier based on your armor/defense. Defense stat should be about damage reduction, since Evasion, Block, Dodge, and Avoid are already there to deal with the "attacks not hitting you" portion of defensive stats.
Okay, so armor should provide damage reduction. But it should do so to a point where it negates damage sources. Let's not try to invent what tradeoffs that would have to give.
A friendly and understandable trading system would be a great boost to Diablo 3. Bind on Equip however seems completely at odds with what Diablo has been about till now. Quest items that bind, sure, whatever, but never the good/best stuff.
I think it should go:
Highest quality rares>Uniques=great set items>good rares> set items>quest items=magic items.
I liked the "cruel" system as well, making fairly common items have a chance to be excellent.
Making items bind one equip completely changes how often the slot machine pays out which can lead to many fundamental changes to Diablo's unique item appeal. Much lower highs and more even lows can just leave you with apathy.
Steam id: skoot LoL id: skoot
Oh? Tell me what Diablo is about!
Steam id: skoot LoL id: skoot
It's pretty funny, but nearly all the current high-end cookie-cutter builds (hammerdins, lightning sorceresses, lightning javazons) are only high-end now because Blizzard decided to create cross-class skills and aura items. The only high-end build that's remained true-to-class is the smiter (who, even then, almost always uses Dracul's Grasp or Exile for the chance to cast the Necromancer's Life Tap).
It is dubious whether the current state of affairs is desirable, or a necessary consequence of this design decision, but it is certainly true that Blizzard intended to encourage cross-class characters in Diablo II and certainly succeeded into doing so. Overwhelmingly.
Runewords were, of course, introduced precisely because they permitted stat-based customization...
Me starting to think about trading something cool for something else then deciding not to even bother because you need 45 of them minimum for anything else cool because duping and insanely efficient item runs are common.
And what does this have to do with level 85 and higher items being Bind on Equip?
"I found an awesome sword that's worth $400 on ebay! OH SHIT I PUT IT ON ON ACCIDENT!!! FUCK BLIZZARD THEY SUCK I'M BOYCOTTING THEM!!!"
Handmade Jewelry by me on EtsyGames for sale
Me on Twitch!
...
I'm old.
"Bind on equip" means you can pick up and item and trade it, sell it, give it away, etc. as long as you don't use it on your character. That has ZERO to do with the drop rate of an item.
"And I'll get RIGHT to that boycotting as soon as we finish up some more Meph runs!"
And this would stimulate trade value how?
Edit - If you're saying "Bind on Equip" should be "Binds to Account on Equip" eh, maybe. But why the shit would you twink in this game?
Well, the fact that items are removed from the economy when equipped means that Blizzard doesn't have to make the cool/rare items quite as rare as they are in D2 and still have them hold value. If that means the awesome items are more likely to drop while still being valuable, sign me up.
Also they could easily cut down on the "SHIT I RIGHT-CLICKED, I DIDN'T WANT TO EQUIP THAT NOOOOO!" factor by adding a confirmation when you equip BoE items.
Who said anything about trade value? I just don't want test out my staff barbarian build with an awesome staff to find out it's terrible and now I can never swap that staff over to my monk.